Live and die with Josh Hader:

[willie key]

I literally don't care about any of this stay or go.

 

All I care about is the next time (if there is a next time) we can win a division or/and win the wild card game within a three day stretch, the damn closer does it. I would have been happy at 50% success rate. It was an abysmal failure in the biggest games we played this year.

 

Whoever it is, get it together

[True Blue Brew Crew]

I literally don't care about any of this stay or go.

 

All I care about is the next time (if there is a next time) we can win a division or/and win the wild card game within a three day stretch, the damn closer does it. I would have been happy at 50% success rate. It was an abysmal failure in the biggest games we played this year.

 

Whoever it is, get it together

 

I'm going to call in a favor and make sure word gets to the players, coaches, and front office that they need to figure it out and get it together.

[MrTPlush]

2 pitches is the problem?

 

Can you imagine Mariano Rivera if he would have had more than 2 pitches? Man he just didn't last without that third pitch.

[wntrtxn21]

Hader was extremely frustrating to watch this year. He has success with his fastball and I would assume that the strikeout analytics suggest just keep throwing high fastballs as that inflates the K-rate and that is all baseball is about these days. To use an old, tired cliché, there was no pitching going on there, all throwing.

 

So at the end of the season, every opposing MLB hitter knows that he only throws a slider 15% of the time and 64% of the time the slider will be a ball. Why show respect for anything other than the fastball? So he gives up 9 home runs in the last 35 innings he pitches and he and the Brewers just say it's simply bad location and there is nothing wrong. Well, maybe he lacks a proper margin "for location error" because hitters only have to worry about one thing. Maybe if they actually had to worry about a second pitch, then it might not be so easy for them to just sit on the one pitch and smash it when it's not in the right spot. The numbers pretty much show that, on average, Hader will throw one slider per at bat and, on average, that one slider will be a ball...so why not just ignore any slider that's thrown and just sit on the fastball?

 

Justin Verlander may very well win the Cy Young and led the league in HRs given up.

 

Hader has an elite fastball with movement. You don't think that the entire season the strategy was "Sit on his fastball and tee off on it."?

 

Hader has now given up hits at the lowest rate ever for any pitcher with over 100 innings pitched. This idea that guys are "sitting on the fastball" and teeing off on it is ludicrous.

 

Verlander did not lead the AL in HRs given up, but he was tied for 2nd. Every team's strategy against Hader is sit on the fastball and hope the slider is nonexistent. The only way batters hit the bombs against him is they look for the FB and start their swing early. That's why he gets so many Ks. When he can throw the slider for strikes, he is almost unhittable.

[tmwiese55]

And in spite of all that hitters had terrible numbers against him. I agree though, very frustrated he's not perfect and would prefer an upgrade. If I was the Yanks I'd have axed Rivera after blowing two titles in the Sox 3-0 comeback and the AZ championship.

[willie key]

I literally don't care about any of this stay or go.

 

All I care about is the next time (if there is a next time) we can win a division or/and win the wild card game within a three day stretch, the damn closer does it. I would have been happy at 50% success rate. It was an abysmal failure in the biggest games we played this year.

 

Whoever it is, get it together

 

I'm going to call in a favor and make sure word gets to the players, coaches, and front office that they need to figure it out and get it together.

 

Too bad you couldn’t have just called in that favor to hader the last week of September maybe we’d have more in game threads this week instead of talking about walk per nine or other crap

 

If you have that kind of pull what the hell were you dong last week. Get yourself together

[willie key]

And in spite of all that hitters had terrible numbers against him. I agree though, very frustrated he's not perfect and would prefer an upgrade. If I was the Yanks I'd have axed Rivera after blowing two titles in the Sox 3-0 comeback and the AZ championship.

 

Mariano Rivera gave up 11 homers his first year in the majors. Every other year it was like an average of three per year

 

Hader gave up 15 freaking homers this year. I don’t know if I would compare those two like hader is on Rivera career path or something.

 

Hader can be good. Hader can be bad. He was bad when it really mattered which leaves a bad taste in your mouth

 

Just be better next year if he’s going to be the guy

[xisxisxis]

Hader can be good. Hader can be bad. He was bad when it really mattered which leaves a bad taste in your mouth

 

What do you put in your mouth when you watch the Brewers... Nevermind, best not to know.

 

Can we move on from Hader and discuss the seriously much more relevant Live or Die with Christian Yelich... I mean what type of quality player breaks his kneecap when the team needs him most... Seriously, if he can't get a hit every time he bats, why do we have him around. Sure his salary is comparatively low, but he bailed on the team when they needed him the most and every Brewer teammate, employee and fan should be on his case for letting the team down...

[sveumrules]

I don’t know if I would compare those two like hader is on Rivera career path or something.

 

Rivera first three seasons of relief...

 

196 IP | 47 ERA- | 57 FIP-

 

Hader first three seasons...

 

204 IP | 57 ERA- | 63 FIP-

 

Pretty darn close.

[MrTPlush]

Look up any elite bullpen arm, actually any closer, ACTUALLY any bullpen arm. Tell me when you find a bunch of guys throwing a third pitch a notable amount...it is just is not very common at all.

 

Heck Hader uses his third pitch more than the guys I looked up quick! Kimbrel literally doesn’t use one period. Not saying they don’t exist, but it’s really not useful. They use their elite pitches. No need to play around with an average third pitch.

 

Mariano Rivera averaged a 7.0 H/9 and a 8.2 K/9

 

Josh Hader 4.5 H/9 and a 15.3 K/9

 

I think Hader makes up for it in other ways.

[rickh150]

The mental gymnastics by some to say Hader should have been taken out for Lyles (or another righty) against a lefty is amusing. Carry on bfan!

 

No problem with Hader facing the lefty Soto with the bases loaded..... my opinion was that he was coming out REGARDLESS of what happened with Soto. That question needs to be asked to CC.

[rickh150]

The mental gymnastics by some to say Hader should have been taken out for Lyles (or another righty) against a lefty is amusing. Carry on bfan!

 

No problem with Hader facing the lefty Soto with the bases loaded..... my opinion was that he was coming out REGARDLESS of what happened with Soto. That question needs to be asked to CC.

 

Kendrick is a righty and would have faced Lyles next, whatever the situation, imo...

[FVBrewerFan]

Was there ever a mound visit during the already infamous Hader8th?

[Pugger]

Hader can be good. Hader can be bad. He was bad when it really mattered which leaves a bad taste in your mouth

 

What do you put in your mouth when you watch the Brewers... Nevermind, best not to know.

 

Can we move on from Hader and discuss the seriously much more relevant Live or Die with Christian Yelich... I mean what type of quality player breaks his kneecap when the team needs him most... Seriously, if he can't get a hit every time he bats, why do we have him around. Sure his salary is comparatively low, but he bailed on the team when they needed him the most and every Brewer teammate, employee and fan should be on his case for letting the team down...

 

Ummm, I thougth this thread is about Hader...

[geargroy]

Problem with Harder is that the TV announcers stated hader would pitch the last two innings which I don't agree with. Others on the squad have been closing. That's why Counsell needs to have pitchers in the bullpen warming up or at least playing catch and throw. Do or die folks.

[PeaveyFury]

Problem with Harder is that the TV announcers stated hader would pitch the last two innings which I don't agree with. Others on the squad have been closing. That's why Counsell needs to have pitchers in the bullpen warming up or at least playing catch and throw. Do or die folks.

 

You can disagree with the announcers, but you'd be incorrect. He was getting both of those innings. The only reason others had been closing was primarily due to days where Hader was off.

 

Also, you know Lyles was indeed warming in the bullpen, right?

[adambr2]

Problem with Harder is that the TV announcers stated hader would pitch the last two innings which I don't agree with. Others on the squad have been closing. That's why Counsell needs to have pitchers in the bullpen warming up or at least playing catch and throw. Do or die folks.

 

You can disagree with the announcers, but you'd be incorrect. He was getting both of those innings. The only reason others had been closing was primarily due to days where Hader was off.

 

Also, you know Lyles was indeed warming in the bullpen, right?

 

So how do we know he (Hader) was getting both of those innings if someone was indeed warming in the pen in the 8th?

[DuWayne Steurer]

Just because the tv guys said he was pitching the last 2 innings doesn't mean that was absolutely going to happen. They aren't in the dugout.

[rickh150]

Ask CC at On Deck if Hader was facing Kendrick? Doubt it, the more I think about it.

[HiAndTight]

Anyone think the fact that we threw three lefties in relief and then two who rely heavily on that fastball up might have made things a bit tougher on Hader? Didn't dawn on me until my old man texted me during the game. He doesn't follow the game all that closely, but in the past, we've been able to mix it up a bit. Knebel, Hader, Jeffress. You're not getting a similar looks the final four innings.

 

Obviously they have different deliveries and movement, but still...both lefties, both throwing in the upper 90's up in the zone. Just throwing that out there as to why Hader might have struggled this past time out. I mean, the broken bat single and then Grisham overrunning that play/the ball kicking back on him both contributed to it. But if you don't throw Pom out there for 2 innings...I don't know if they are able to adjust to Hader that quickly.

[stalton]

The analogy I like using is poker. Hader can theoretically could be like a pair of aces. It might be the best starting hand, but that doesn't mean that it won't get beat by an inferior hand. It's easy to say after the fact that the aces should have been folded, but give me a choice between aces and a weaker hand preflop and I'll take the aces every single time.

[Ennder]

Problem with Harder is that the TV announcers stated hader would pitch the last two innings which I don't agree with. Others on the squad have been closing. That's why Counsell needs to have pitchers in the bullpen warming up or at least playing catch and throw. Do or die folks.

 

You can disagree with the announcers, but you'd be incorrect. He was getting both of those innings. The only reason others had been closing was primarily due to days where Hader was off.

 

Also, you know Lyles was indeed warming in the bullpen, right?

 

If Hader gets Soto out there is no way that he pitches the 9th in that game, it just wasn't going to happen.

[PeaveyFury]

I 100% think that When Hader came in, the intention was for him to pitch both innings. I’d be astounded if they had any other intention at that time. The way it unfolded, I still think it was likely that he would have come back out for the ninth if they had the lead. Who else do you trust in that situation? Pray that Junior Guerra can get it done? No, they were more likely to ride the guy that got them there, IMO.

 

I interpreted the poster that I quoted as questioning the claim that Hader was brought in to get through both innings, which he almost certainly was. The way it unfolded made it far less likely.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'm certain he was brought in with the intention of pitching 2 innings. Once he struggled and threw 30 pitches, he probably wasn't going to go back out for the 9th, though it wasn't impossible. I question the logic of "the announcers said so, so it must be so", however.

[HiAndTight]

If Hader gets Soto out there is no way that he pitches the 9th in that game, it just wasn't going to happen.

 

 

Really? No way he pitches a second inning if he gets through the 8th without giving up any runs? He was almost certainly coming back out for the 9th if he gets through the heart of the order there.