Live and die with Josh Hader:

[tmwiese55]

But Hader hasn't been like that at all since mid August when he started using his slider again. He's been scored on 2 times since mid August. By this type of thinking you'd also be holding Pomeranz's bad numbers before we got him against him as well. Hader has been our best guy in this end of season stretch. Again, you're advocating distrust and demotion due to one HR in the Col air. And your prefered choice and more trusted player is Pomeranz, you know, the guy who also gave up a HR in the same game in Colorado.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

That's fine and why Counsell used him the way he did. It just isn't what I would have done and to say the worry about Hader is hindsight just isn't accurate because I literally said all of this before the game. Of course I never expected Hader to be used any differently last night. I just wish it would have happened.

[KeithStone53151]

That's fine and why Counsell used him the way he did. It just isn't what I would have done and to say the worry about Hader is hindsight just isn't accurate because I literally said all of this before the game. Of course I never expected Hader to be used any differently last night. I just wish it would have happened.

 

I was one that generally agreed it wouldn't be a bad idea to use Hader early. The idea would be start with your very best and go from there. If after Woodruff's 4 innings, we get good Hader and he can pitch 2+ clean innings and is striking out everybody...heck you can probably save Lyles for game 1 of the NLDS. If you get bad Hader like we saw yesterday, you can have a quicker hook and adapt as there are plenty of options. I personally was so frustrated we didn't have a quicker hook for Hader. He had too many extremely bad pitches. He was basically a 1 pitch pitcher as the entire stadium knew he couldn't get his slider anywhere near the zone. In an August game, sure leave Hader in and if he blows it...he blows it. In a 1 and done...if the guy isn't sharp, next man up. This team's strength is in it's numbers, we have a lot of quality arms that can have really good days. For all we know, CC could have put in Freddy to face Rendon and we get good Freddy...who strikes out 4 in a row for the W. In the playoffs, you need to be much more Joe Maddon/Bruce Bochy than what CC has been. Identify if a guy isn't sharp and quick hooks. Can't be married to any one guy, and being efficient simply doesn't matter in said situation. We had 6 guys left in the pen and 4 outs to get

[Underachiever]

I don't even know where you pulled that "rest of the pen is a disaster" thing from. I never said anything even close to that.

If you're referring to this "You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true." Then your comprehension needs work. I wasn't saying Guerra would blow it, I was conceding that if he or anyone else did people would be screaming that Player X should have been left in.

Didn't you type this: But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming."

[Oxy]

I wanted somebody else to start the 8th. If you bring somebody else in (or leave Pomeranz in) and they scuffle for a bit, you still have Hader to bring in the game. If you start the 8th with Hader and he scuffles a bit...you pretty much have to leave him in and let him wriggle out of it or blow it--and even if he wriggles out of it, you have a difficult decision of leaving him out there in the 9th with a high pitch count. We had other options.

[FVBrewerFan]

Here's the problem I have. No matter what you would have done, CC wasn't stupid, or blew it, or anything of the sort. He made a very logical choice, one that most would have done.

 

Some of you would have gone by "feel." Fine, but my experience hanging out in the IGTs tells me your feeling was wrong 96.9% of the time.

[benji]

The game played out as planned. Unfortunately Hader didnt execute Saturday night or Tuesday night. That being said add on runs can take pressure off a bullpen. You cant expect Hader to be perfect everytime. 3 runs usually wont win games against good offenses.

 

Great season overall. Hader and Knebel (assuming be comes back healthy) is a deadly combo.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I don't even know where you pulled that "rest of the pen is a disaster" thing from. I never said anything even close to that.

If you're referring to this "You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true." Then your comprehension needs work. I wasn't saying Guerra would blow it, I was conceding that if he or anyone else did people would be screaming that Player X should have been left in.

Didn't you type this: But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming."

 

It's called context and you're not getting it. The point there isn't that the entire bullpen sucks. It's that I didn't want Hader to close from the get-go and if they'd tried another strategy I would at least feel like they tried it and it just didn't work. Whereas I saw the Hader train wreck coming and find another outcome easier to live with.

 

Even if I concede that CC decided Hader would close the game before it started, which I think is stupid, he still should have pulled him way before that bases clearing hit. Game was still winnable even with the strategy I didn't like and bad Josh showing up.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Hader had a stretch from July 1st through August thirteenth where he gave up 7 homers in just 14 games. That's half the homers he gave up for the season when he absolutely couldn't get his fastball up in the zone. For the rest of the year he was pretty much lights out. He was simply outstanding in September. Relievers and closers blow saves once in a while. If they didn't, they'd just say "ok, game over" when teams brought in their closers. There are no automatic closers in the league. We got spoiled last year by having a nice run of the bullpen being shut down for a while (and again this September).

 

It's going to be vital for Hader to develop that slider going forward, and I think most people know that relievers are generally pretty volatile year to year, but the guy still has a ton of talent and hopefully that can still be coached out of him going forward.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

What flame-throwing relief pitcher has sustained a career with basically one pitch? I'm genuinely asking for a list of guys. Because my fear with Hader is that the hitters are simply too good for that to work much longer. Really makes what Trevor Hoffman did with his injury just absolutely incredible.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'm 100% sure that Josh, Chris Hook, and Counsell are acutely aware that his longevity is tied to him developing either his slider or another pitch and being able to reliably throw it for strikes. That being said, knowing it and doing it are two different things. If it were that easy, history would be absolutely littered with dominating relievers rather than flameouts like Turnbow.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Two things.

 

1) Fans that say that CC doesn't know how to handle a pitching staff apparently have the baseball memory of a fruit fly. Forgetting RR starting Marcum in game 6 of the NLCS when he had nothing for a month and a half, forgetting Sveum starting Suppan against the Phillies in game 4 of the NLDS despite having a career 5+ era against them and not being very good that year, and forgetting Yost intentionally walking either Ryan Howard or Chase Utley so Brian Shouse could turn Shane Victorino into Lou Gehrig. CC has never made a move that comes even close to those bonehead moves.

 

2) The idea that CC should have removed Hader is akin to suggesting that late in the game we should PH Yelich if he's 0-3 with a couple of ks and there is a LH relief pitcher on the mound. You don't take out your star player just because he's struggling a little bit.

[82brewcrew82]

Two things.

 

1) Fans that say that CC doesn't know how to handle a pitching staff apparently have the baseball memory of a fruit fly. Forgetting RR starting Marcum in game 6 of the NLCS when he had nothing for a month and a half, forgetting Sveum starting Suppan against the Phillies in game 4 of the NLDS despite having a career 5+ era against them and not being very good that year, and forgetting Yost intentionally walking either Ryan Howard or Chase Utley so Brian Shouse could turn Shane Victorino into Lou Gehrig. CC has never made a move that comes even close to those bonehead moves.

 

2) The idea that CC should have removed Hader is akin to suggesting that late in the game we should PH Yelich if he's 0-3 with a couple of ks and there is a LH relief pitcher on the mound. You don't take out your star player just because he's struggling a little bit.

Truth

[Oxy]

Two things.

 

2) The idea that CC should have removed Hader is akin to suggesting that late in the game we should PH Yelich if he's 0-3 with a couple of ks and there is a LH relief pitcher on the mound. You don't take out your star player just because he's struggling a little bit.

 

Of course he had to stick with him once he was in. That's why he shouldn't have come in in the first place, especially with a right handed heavy bottom of the order coming up. Either leave a dealing Pomeranz in or go to Peralta/Guerra for at the very least the first couple of batter in the 8th and then see what to do from there .

 

I'm not foaming at the mouth at CCs decision though. He's been right much more often than not this year--and it wasn't a completely boneheaded move. It's just one I wouldn't have made.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Two things.

2) The idea that CC should have removed Hader is akin to suggesting that late in the game we should PH Yelich if he's 0-3 with a couple of ks and there is a LH relief pitcher on the mound. You don't take out your star player just because he's struggling a little bit.

 

That's a stretch. A big one. Removing a clearly struggling pitcher has never been the same as pinch hitting for the MVP. You know that's a stretch.

[adambr2]

Two things.

2) The idea that CC should have removed Hader is akin to suggesting that late in the game we should PH Yelich if he's 0-3 with a couple of ks and there is a LH relief pitcher on the mound. You don't take out your star player just because he's struggling a little bit.

 

That's a stretch. A big one. Removing a clearly struggling pitcher has never been the same as pinch hitting for the MVP. You know that's a stretch.

 

Yeah, that's not even close to the same thing. But that was kind of the problem with Hader this year and his role. He was always the last line of defense. If he struggled, that was that and we were going to lose. Last year we could turn to Knebel, turn to Jeffress if it wasn't Hader's night. This year if Josh Hader was going to come into a game it was going to be his game to win or lose.

[rickh150]

Two things.

 

2) The idea that CC should have removed Hader is akin to suggesting that late in the game we should PH Yelich if he's 0-3 with a couple of ks and there is a LH relief pitcher on the mound. You don't take out your star player just because he's struggling a little bit.

 

Of course he had to stick with him once he was in. That's why he shouldn't have come in in the first place, especially with a right handed heavy bottom of the order coming up. Either leave a dealing Pomeranz in or go to Peralta/Guerra for at the very least the first couple of batter in the 8th and then see what to do from there .

 

I'm not foaming at the mouth at CCs decision though. He's been right much more often than not this year--and it wasn't a completely boneheaded move. It's just one I wouldn't have made.

 

My take is that Hader was facing his last hitter REGARDLESS of what happened... if he walked the young National, it's 3-2 and warmed up Lyles is coming in. If Grisham makes no error, it's 3-3 and Lyle's is in. If he retires him, he still has roughly 30 struggling pitches heading to the 9th and I still think CC takes him out. Lyle's and Houser maybe for the 9th?

[AdvantageSchneider]

Two things.

2) The idea that CC should have removed Hader is akin to suggesting that late in the game we should PH Yelich if he's 0-3 with a couple of ks and there is a LH relief pitcher on the mound. You don't take out your star player just because he's struggling a little bit.

 

That's a stretch. A big one. Removing a clearly struggling pitcher has never been the same as pinch hitting for the MVP. You know that's a stretch.

 

Yeah, that's not even close to the same thing. But that was kind of the problem with Hader this year and his role. He was always the last line of defense. If he struggled, that was that and we were going to lose. Last year we could turn to Knebel, turn to Jeffress if it wasn't Hader's night. This year if Josh Hader was going to come into a game it was going to be his game to win or lose.

 

It really is the same thing. I've never seen anyone PH for the MVP late in the game. Can you think of an elite closer that has been taken out of a save situation when it looked like he didn't have it? I've been racking my brain but I can't think of that ever happening. You either believe in your star players or you don't. It's the old cliche, it's not about the Xs and Os it about Jimmy's and Joes.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Hader is an elite RP, he's not an elite closer but that analogy still doesn't work for many reasons. One being that Yelich gets one AB.

[adambr2]

It really is the same thing. I've never seen anyone PH for the MVP late in the game. Can you think of an elite closer that has been taken out of a save situation when it looked like he didn't have it? I've been racking my brain but I can't think of that ever happening. You either believe in your star players or you don't. It's the old cliche, it's not about the Xs and Os it about Jimmy's and Joes.

 

Yes actually, the 2018 Brewers did it numerous times to all 3 of their "closers". You're still comparing apples to oranges here. Hader isn't an elite closer. He was a very good reliever in 2019 and an elite reliever in 2018, but he's never been an elite closer in the traditional sense. If you're comparing him to historical guys like Kimbrel, Rivera, etc, that just doesn't hold up. Even as a closer, Hader has never been a traditional one. He's consistently asked to protect for 2 innings, even more, depending on the situation.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with believing in your star players or not, it has to do with your options. Hader, Jeffress, and Knebel were used late in games almost interchangeably last season in various orders depending on the game situation. Does that mean we didn't believe in them? Of course not. Was Hader just better and more trustworthy this year? No, definitely not. We simply had various high end options at our disposal to finish the job if we ran into trouble.

[FVBrewerFan]

It really is the same thing. I've never seen anyone PH for the MVP late in the game. Can you think of an elite closer that has been taken out of a save situation when it looked like he didn't have it? I've been racking my brain but I can't think of that ever happening. You either believe in your star players or you don't. It's the old cliche, it's not about the Xs and Os it about Jimmy's and Joes.

 

Yes actually, the 2018 Brewers did it numerous times to all 3 of their "closers". You're still comparing apples to oranges here. Hader isn't an elite closer. He was a very good reliever in 2019 and an elite reliever in 2018, but he's never been an elite closer in the traditional sense. If you're comparing him to historical guys like Kimbrel, Rivera, etc, that just doesn't hold up. Even as a closer, Hader has never been a traditional one. He's consistently asked to protect for 2 innings, even more, depending on the situation.

 

It doesn't have anything to do with believing in your star players or not, it has to do with your options. Hader, Jeffress, and Knebel were used late in games almost interchangeably last season in various orders depending on the game situation. Does that mean we didn't believe in them? Of course not. Was Hader just better and more trustworthy this year? No, definitely not. We simply had various high end options at our disposal to finish the job if we ran into trouble.

 

Correct. Hader was not above being yanked. He was simply the best option. The struggling part is overblown a bit too. Robles was dancing around like a fool on pitches just off the inside corner. He k'd 2 batters with a bogus hbp in between. Then destroyed Zimmerman's bat. Yea, he was a little wild but amost always is, and almost always gets the job done. Even this year.

 

As far as his future, sure only one pitch is an issue. But not the issue it was in the past now that you get the high strike. Swing and miss rate on his high fb is crazy, and gets a lot of swings out of the zone. All that said, I do prefer him in his 2018 role.

[adambr2]

I was surprised looking at Hader's numbers, he was almost identical to his 2018 other than his HR/9 jumped from 1 to 1.8. He struck out slightly more and walked less. There wasn't a big difference at all between 2018 and 2019 Hader.

[sveumrules]

Even with less than optimal command & no consistent second pitch, since 2017, Hader has posted 5.9 FIP based WAR (2nd most), 7.2 runs allowed based WAR (thee most) & +7.26 Win Probability Added (also 2nd).

 

The only reliever that has been comparable over the last three seasons is Felipe Vasquez & I believe he'll be pitching in the Venezuelan Penal League next year.

 

If I have to live or die with a reliever, Josh Hader is my pick.

 

As for relievers that had multiple productive seasons over numerous years while pretty much only throwing a fastball, Aroldis Chapman & Zach Britton are the two that come to mind first.

[sveumrules]

He was simply 'unlucky' compared to last year

 

StatCast agrees with you.

 

2018

 

expected AVG .158 vs actual AVG .132

expected SLG .280 vs actual SLG .265

 

2019

 

expected AVG .152 vs actual AVG .155

expected SLG .306 vs actual SLG .366

[RollieTime]

My issue is that Hader clearly didn’t have it and was left in which led to us blowing the game. It was obvious from the first few pitches that he didn’t have it. I know he’s “the guy”, but that really shouldn’t matter. What matters is if a guy clearly doesn’t have it, regardless of who he is, he needs to be pulled. Maybe not in the regular season, but in a one game playoff it needs to happen. No excuses for how long he was left in and had no idea where his pitches were going. Just guessing here, but 30 pitches, 14 strikes. How many pitches were outside the zone and guys still swung? Hader probably threw something like 9 or 10 strikes. For a guy that tends to pound the zone, he was clearly off.

 

I think Hader is fantastic and I really did not have an issue with him coming in for 2 innings. I thought it was the right move at the time and agree with the decision. But when a guy doesn’t have it, man, you gotta get him out of there. If somebody is off, you need to have a quick hook in the playoffs. Especially a winner take all game. Lyles should of been getting warm after the second batter of the inning in my opinion. It was very obvious how wild Hader was.