2019-10-01 (NL Wild Card Game): Brewers (Woodruff) at Nationals (Scherzer) 7:08 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 4-3 -- Nationals score 3 runs in 8th inning; Heartbreaking end to 2019]

[Pugger]

The manager doesn't throw the pitches. But sure, not Counsell's best game. Think he might have been in the clubhouse already when Arcia hit in the 9th.

 

Sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. The player has to actually have the talent to belong in the league. Players are pawns. The manager/coach needs to do 1 thing. Put his players in position to succeed. If a guys missing every 3 but the play keeps dictating that he shoots it because he's open or if the pitcher can't throw a strike, or if the RT can't block his man and you keep letting him get run over solo. Do you just leave them in that and go well, "I don't throw the ball or shoot or block." No, you alter. You make decisions. IT'S ALL YOU DO! CC decided to let a guy who was off continue. Hader isn't going to pull himself. Yes Hader sucked tonight. Why was he still in when he couldn't execute?

 

When Hader is on you see 2 electric innings that set down 6 guys in effortless fashion. When he's struggling with FB control and has no SL you'd have to be a moron to hang your season on that. I don't care who the pitcher is. If Woodruff walked the first 3 guys, do you just let him get blasted for 10 run and blame him?

 

The coach/manger has a job to do as well. Part of that is saving players from themselves when they aren't on.

 

We need a like or agree button for posts like this. Ray Charles could see Hader didn't have it tonight. This was do or die. All hands on deck. As soon as it was obvious Hader was wild and had no slider you get a freakin' starter up to try and save the season instead of watching your All Star closer struggle and blow the game ending the season like that.

[Pugger]

This game is a microcosm of the season. Knebel not available, Hader too streaky, offense disappearing for long stretches. I wasn't as emotional involved with the team this season as most on this board, but followed closely enough to appreciate the September run and feel the punch gut at the end. However, I'll be over it this time tomorrow and will see this game as a fitting end to the season.

 

I have a feeling the players in that locker room feel a hell of lot worse than any of us do.

[adambr2]

So, now that the emotion in here has died down a bit I'll say this. I wouldn't have changed a thing. No way do I give Pom 3 innings when he just hasn't done that in his current role. No way I bring in Peralta or Lyles in the 8th when Hader was struggling. Would you feel confident? Peralta can be just as wild, and Lyles is not used to entering a game in that situation. You don't gamble. Hader had countless outings this year where he was wild and got the job done. He didn't this time, aided by a blown hbp call, broken bat blooper, and error.

 

He's not "done." Just not dominant this year. Still, he was the best chance to get through the 8th. He, among others, need to go to change-up school this offseason.

 

I'm with you about Peralta but why do you assume Lyles couldn't replicate what Strasburg did?

 

I'm with you. I'm not saying I would have went with Lyles but I don't get this assumption that starters just can't be brought into these situations that they're not used to. Maybe there are a certain few that this is true for but for the most part this seems like an old wives tale. Scherzer struggled starting the game in his familiar role, Strasburg was dominant in his unfamiliar role.

 

These guys are professionals that have been doing this for years and the vast majority of them have both started and relieved at different levels before and are not going to freak out when brought in to start the 8th instead of the 1st.

 

We made our living last September and October by plugging pitchers into unfamiliar roles.

[willie key]

 

Wins by division (team totals) 1-5 diffetence...

 

ALE: 404 (103, 96, 84, 67, 54) 49

ALC: 372 (101, 93, 72, 59, 47) 54

ALW: 422 (107, 98, 77, 72, 68) 39

 

NLE: 414 (97, 93, 86, 81, 57) 40

NLC: 408 (91, 89, 84, 75, 69) 22

NLW: 409 (106, 85, 77, 71, 70) 36

 

Top to bottom, the AL Central was clearly the most lopsided division in baseball this year, while the NL Central was clearly the most evenly matched.

 

It's almost like the NLC being the most balanced & having the division winner with the fewest wins vs the AL having three 100+ win/100+ loss teams are somehow related.

 

Please feel free to add additional context, since I'm still catching on.

 

Who knows. You could be right or you could be dead wrong. Cleveland is downgraded because the royals are bad. But then who says we are better then the Mets. Their division is tougher. Maybe our division is so tough that every win was tough to come by and that the Houston’s and Minnesota’s, etc would only win 90 games.

 

Or maybe our division was just a pile of average crap too and we benefited from that

 

I’m sure the equivalent of you on the Cleveland fan forum is saying how much better they were than the brewers this year and why do we have to watch them choke it up tonight. Why weren’t we in the NL? And on and on.

 

It is what it is. That’s why I said it depends on how you ranked them.

[sdcheezhd]

My brother was at the game - his main takes:

 

1. There were about 12 Brewer fans there total (hi MD!)

 

2. The fans had completely given up on the Nats until Hader started struggling. TBS did a pretty good job showing the guys burying their faces in the towels etc. but you had to be there to feel how dead it was.

 

3. The AB of the game was Hader v. Michael Taylor. Everyone was amazed when he PHd, and it was kind of a surprise he was even on the roster. It was like sending Shaw up there. If he gets him, 2 out and none on and the fans start heading for the exits. If he gets on, wow he can't even get Taylor out. They got ripped off on the HBP but why is he even going 3-2. Why throw the slider on 2-2, just blow it by the bum.

 

4. For a gut-wrenching loss, really not too bad. It probably helps that he'd rather they lose to the Nats than anyone else. But this whole month has been playing with house money. Once Woodruff went out they were dead. Once Yelich went out they were really dead. They were 7.5 out of the division not too long ago.

 

i'm bummed since I had a ticket for LA on Thurs. night if they made it. But it is what it is. It was a successful season for me.

 

BTW everyone talking about ending with 4 straight Ls who cares about Sunday, don't count that one.

[MrTPlush]

People nitpicking Hader and what his problem is. Next thing you know we will critique Yelich. As bad as Hader was this year (as they say) he was still one of the best relievers in the game.

 

Are we really that upset he isn’t they best reliever ever or something?

[Invader3K]

Hader was a disaster last night, and I don't know why he was left in when he clearly didn't have "it", but I'd point out that the Brewers' offense missed plenty of opportunities to tack on additional runs last night. They scored three runs early, all off the long ball, and then didn't do anything the rest of the evening. It was a team loss, can't just blame one guy.

 

It was amazing the team was able to even make the playoffs, after all the adversity faced this season. Call me crazy, but I think better times are ahead in 2020.

[rcc]

Wow! 66 pages this morning. Nobody can say the Brewer fans don't care about their team.

[Pugger]

People nitpicking Hader and what his problem is. Next thing you know we will critique Yelich. As bad as Hader was this year (as they say) he was still one of the best relievers in the game.

 

Are we really that upset he isn’t they best reliever ever or something?

 

Naw, I have a feeling it was the emotion of losing the way we did.

 

TBH I was more unhappy that CC didn't have a plan B in case Hader struggled. By the time Lyles got up to throw it was too late.

[shanedog19]

The season ended much the way it went all season long. We could get guys on base, but couldn't drive them in. Very dependent on the home run ball for offense. Too dependent. We had relievers who we could trust, and those we couldn't. If we got out to an early lead and our top relievers were available, we stood a good chance of winning that day. Our margin for error was very thin all season, as we saw play out last night. The roster needs improvement in many areas if we want to be a championship caliber team.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I don't know why Hader would get a pass. He was awful. He alone blew a shot at the division and last night's game. The Grisham thing is nothing but a joke. That's people wanting to blame an unestablished injury fill-in because if they don't they have to place the loss at the feet of a fan favorite and maybe consider that he might have a real control problem. Grisham is just a guy at this point and it's really easy to cast him out.

 

Say what you want about Hader's season but his week was horrific. And about 1/3 of fans wanted him nowhere near the 9th inning. When something is that clear and the manager doesn't pick up on it he can take some of the blame too. It wouldn't have been surprising at all to keep Hader away from 8/9 last night and we had to do the "this is our closer" thing anyway.

[Jimbo]

Do the packers commemorate wild card appearances? Or even division championships. Do the bucks do the same for playoff appearances, etc?

 

Different sports. Access to the postseason is easier in both. Baseball is still the hardest postseason to qualify for. I have no problem with a little flag out there for the 2019 Wild Card. They’re not ostentatious anyway.

 

A little, but making the playoffs in baseball is not what it used to be. It's a 33.3% qualification rate in MLB, compared with 37.5% in the NFL. It's a very insignificant difference.

 

I guess, maybe it does come off as a little pretentious, but I would like us to get to a point in this organization where this is expected, and the gold standard is a little higher than that.

 

I can't speak for every Packer fan here, but if they won the WC2 this year and were bounced in the Wild Card round, I'd feel it was a bit silly if I walked into Lambeau Field and a "Packers 2019 Wild Card" banner was hanging. And again, the playoff qualification rate for MLB and NFL is very close to the same.

 

I think some of it has to with the economics of baseball vs football. A small market team like the Packers will always have the same chance as the Giants. The Brewers will always be behind the eight-ball when compared to the Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees, etc. so a Brewer post-season appearance is a little more special compared to the NFL.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Hader was hitting 98 at times with his fastball last night - the problem was he wasn't locating at all...I don't know if taking a bit off and running it up there at 95 would help command that pitch better or not - if it does he really should take that approach. Just seems like he was throwing, not pitching - and that also explains why he has unreliable secondary stuff when he's in that mode. He went through extended stretches of 2019 where he was still unhittable and is a huge reason the Brewers even had a prayer for a postseason berth...but I think his best role remains something like he was in 2018 - for as antiquated as it seems, I really think the Brewers need to address finding a seasoned closer to cover the 9th. If they can resign Pomeranz to go with Hader and also view Peralta as a multi-inning relief option given adequate rest, that trio coupled with Knebel at the back end is a pretty damn good starting point for a 2020 bullpen. Getting Wahl back and presumable giving Black an extended shot at a pen role also helps

 

Hader lost that game without the Nationals hitting a ball hard - even Soto's single wasn't scalded. So despite him being a 1 pitch pitcher, his stuff is still electric. Absolutely have to improve command on that pitch and need to make that slider a more consistent offering. Soto k'd his previous at bat from a hanging curveball from Pomeranz, and was obviously geared up exclusively for Hader's fastball - if Hader even had a below average slider he could lean on in that at bat Soto would've had no chance.

 

As far as pitching decisions go, I feel like CC went by the script he wanted aside from probably getting Pomeranz in 1 inning earlier than he wanted. That was because after getting 2 quick outs in the 5th, Suter scuffled to get out of that inning unscathed and rattled up a high pitch count. CC was up against it because the the 6th would've been the ideal inning to empty out the situational relievers and play matchups to face the heart of the Nats order (Eaton, Rendon, Soto), but he instead opted to use Pom (who has been their best reliever for some time)...I get the move, but sitting in my armchair the 6th might have been the best inning to try getting 3 outs from Claudio with two of the first three batters being lefthanded. Opening the inning with him while having two other relievers warming (Jackson/Guerra, Peralta) would've been rolling the dice, but IMO getting into the 7th without using Pomeranz would've been worth the risk. Then you roll with a combination of Pom/Hader to try and get the last 9 outs instead of 12.

 

I still am flabbergasted why Taylor's AB was ruled a HBP, despite being reviewed by MLB in super slow mo - if there's a reason at all for replay, it's to look at those type of plays that are next to impossible for an umpire to get a great look at and wind up with the correct call. That wasn't the sole reason Hader imploded - the fact he couldn't locate anything at all was - but gifting a baserunner in that spot prolonged the inning and enabled the scenario for a sawed-off Zimmerman flare to set the rest of things up for a big inning.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I don't know why Hader would get a pass. He was awful. He alone blew a shot at the division and last night's game. The Grisham thing is nothing but a joke. That's people wanting to blame an unestablished injury fill-in because if they don't they have to place the loss at the feet of a fan favorite and maybe consider that he might have a real control problem. Grisham is just a guy at this point and it's really easy to cast him out.

 

Say what you want about Hader's season but his week was horrific. And about 1/3 of fans wanted him nowhere near the 9th inning. When something is that clear and the manager doesn't pick up on it he can take some of the blame too. It wouldn't have been surprising at all to keep Hader away from 8/9 last night and we had to do the "this is our closer" thing anyway.

 

No one is giving Hader a pass. No one at all. That is a made-up narrative.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I don't know why Hader would get a pass. He was awful. He alone blew a shot at the division and last night's game. The Grisham thing is nothing but a joke. That's people wanting to blame an unestablished injury fill-in because if they don't they have to place the loss at the feet of a fan favorite and maybe consider that he might have a real control problem. Grisham is just a guy at this point and it's really easy to cast him out.

 

Say what you want about Hader's season but his week was horrific. And about 1/3 of fans wanted him nowhere near the 9th inning. When something is that clear and the manager doesn't pick up on it he can take some of the blame too. It wouldn't have been surprising at all to keep Hader away from 8/9 last night and we had to do the "this is our closer" thing anyway.

 

No one is giving Hader a pass. No one at all. That is a made-up narrative.

 

That just isn't true. There are a lot of people pretending Grisham caused this.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I don't know why Hader would get a pass. He was awful. He alone blew a shot at the division and last night's game. The Grisham thing is nothing but a joke. That's people wanting to blame an unestablished injury fill-in because if they don't they have to place the loss at the feet of a fan favorite and maybe consider that he might have a real control problem. Grisham is just a guy at this point and it's really easy to cast him out.

 

Say what you want about Hader's season but his week was horrific. And about 1/3 of fans wanted him nowhere near the 9th inning. When something is that clear and the manager doesn't pick up on it he can take some of the blame too. It wouldn't have been surprising at all to keep Hader away from 8/9 last night and we had to do the "this is our closer" thing anyway.

 

No one is giving Hader a pass. No one at all. That is a made-up narrative.

 

That just isn't true. There are a lot of people pretending Grisham caused this.

 

I saw the TexasCheesehead guy, and he was called out on it by plenty of posters for being wrong, to the point where people were putting him on ignore and he was close to getting banned last night. So ... 1 guy, who was wrong.

 

I think most blame Hader. But if you are looking for people to agree with your take that Hader is done, good luck.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I don't know what has to do with anything but explore the Internet a bit you will find a lot of people saying stuff like Grisham blew it, which is just a bunch of nonsense when your all-star reliever loads the bases and gives up a hit that leads to dude even fielding the ball. Not like if he picks it up the Brewers win either.

 

I couldn't care less about people agreeing with my "take." But if we're in June/July and dealing with Hader's meltdown expect me to be very obnoxious.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

I couldn't care less about people agreeing with my "take." But if we're in June/July and dealing with Hader's meltdown expect me to be very obnoxious.

 

Wow. That's one heck of a take. I'm not sure your could get much more obnoxious than you have since the end of the game last night. So this means that the first time Hader blows a lead next year, you're gonna revel in it?

 

I gave you credit for softening your stance last night and having some very good posts on the subject, but this seemingly has gone in reverse.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

No, because he'll most definitely blow his share of saves regardless. I said June/July. When the excuses for spring rust and figuring things out run dry, like it does with pretty much every beloved Brewers reliever. When his ERA has ballooned to 4.76. He should get some time, but I'm guessing that's about how long it will take for most people to admit there's actually something wrong and it's not just bad luck.

 

I was half kidding about being "obnoxious." But after about 10 people have jumped on me for saying Hader played like trash this week, has a HR/control problem and is on a troubling path very similar to his predecessors, yes, I absolutely will be bringing this thread up if it happens, just like all 10 of those people will be giving me hell if he's an All-Star again.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

No, because he'll most definitely blow his share of saves regardless. I said June/July. When the excuses for spring rust and figuring things out run dry, like it does with pretty much every beloved Brewers reliever. When his ERA has ballooned to 4.76. He should get some time, but I'm guessing that's about how long it will take for most people to admit there's actually something wrong and it's not just bad luck.

 

I was half kidding about being "obnoxious." But after about 10 people have jumped on me for saying Hader played like trash this week, has a HR/control problem and is on a troubling path very similar to his predecessors, yes, I absolutely will be bringing this thread up if it happens, just like all 10 of those people will be giving me hell if he's an All-Star again.

 

We'll see. I personally will be pulling for the guy to figure it out, get over the failure of the last week, and get back to being dominant. Because that would be better for the team.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Thinking something is going to happen and wanting what's best for the team aren't mutually exclusive. I would like Grandal to come back for the team's sake but it's not going to happen. I would like to see 2018 Josh Hader but I've seen this movie about seven times now. The only guy I can recall that ever looked like garbage and then got productive again was Knebel.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Thinking something is going to happen and wanting what's best for the team aren't mutually exclusive. I would like Grandal to come back for the team's sake but it's not going to happen. I would like to see 2018 Josh Hader but I've seen this movie about seven times now. The only guy I can recall that ever looked like garbage and then got productive again was Knebel.

 

I'd counter by saying that this team has arguably never had a reliever as talented as Josh Hader. Like I said, we'll see.

[pacopete4]

Thinking something is going to happen and wanting what's best for the team aren't mutually exclusive. I would like Grandal to come back for the team's sake but it's not going to happen. I would like to see 2018 Josh Hader but I've seen this movie about seven times now. The only guy I can recall that ever looked like garbage and then got productive again was Knebel.

 

I'd counter by saying that this team has arguably never had a reliever as talented as Josh Hader. Like I said, we'll see.

 

And that Hader didn't look like "garbage". That is also a false narrative in this. And a very silly one.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

He hasn't, yet, with the exception of this week, which was all too Jeffress-like, right down to the excuses people are using for his poor performance. But I won't deny he's a better talent than every previous Brewers flameout. He's most comparable to Knebel who was a blue chip guy and figured it out.

[rcc]

I would say Grisham was the Buckner moment.

 

Good point.