JJ vs. Billy

[zzzmanwitz]

I'm sure some of you listened to the 1250 morning show today. For those of you who didn't, they were polling listeners as to who brewer fans wanted as their SS of the future, JJ or Bill Hall. Lets here some of your thoughts.

 

I think we NEED to have JJ Hardy be there long term. Gold glove caliber short stops are not easy to find. I think we need to keep Bill Hall, but use him at a position that we need more help in (CF would be my spot of choice). JJ has had his struggles at the plate, but he shows good judgement at the plate and will eventually start getting more balls to find holes for base hits. I want to see him develop more gap power, but that will come with time.

[endaround]

Actually they are very easy to find. Ones that can hit passably are much harder. Hardy's problem isn't his power, its his OBP.

[zzzmanwitz]

So are you willing to give up JJ's glove for Billy's bat when we already do that at 2 other infield positions?

[AJ Love]

To me, it depends on what other roster moves are made in regards to the Outfielders we have... Hall could end up a good solid CF, or a 2B if Weeks ends up in CF...

 

Fortunately, right now we can afford to keep both while Melvin and Yost figure out the Outfield puzzle... the way this season is playing out I gotta believe that eventually the Brewers trade outfielders for pitchers

[backup catchers]

I'm sure Hall goes back to super U when Hardy gets back but he is playing all star calibre short right now IMO. If Hardy did perform as well over all as Hall we would all be pretty happy. So the question does have to be asked. Can we really hope Hardy can someday play better than Hall is now? If not why not just keep Hall there?

 

My answer to that is we can have both of them for another couple years anyway and Hall is the more versatile.

[AJ Love]

I doubt Hall will ever be as good defensively at SS as Hardy and I doubt Hardy will ever hit as well or be as durable as Hall...

 

On a World Series caliber team (which is what we are building, right?) you'd like to have both, for depth

[zzzmanwitz]

The problem is we WON'T have both for a couple years. This is the last year of his contract and I don't think Billy will want to stay around if he doesn't have a designated spot in our lineup everyday. To me, it makes sense to try to trade Billy at the deadline (but thats a trade topic and don't want to get into that here). Bill Hall plays good defense, but not great. Also, Bill is on a hot streak at the plate and JJ is not looking fantastic. It is very possible that Hall slows down and JJ picks it up later this season. (I'm not saying it will, but it could). Eventually JJ should level out to about a .275 hitter with a .350-ish OBP, which IMO is plenty for a guy with his defensive abilities.

[endaround]

Hall is arby eligible. He isn't going anywhere.

[zzzmanwitz]

Wasn't aware of that... thanks

[davego]

So are you willing to give up JJ's glove for Billy's bat when we already do that at 2 other infield positions?

 

 

Yes. The gap between JJ's O and Billy's O is much greater then what you can find between the two on D. This also points out why Billy has much more value to the 'Crew (as well as on the open market) as a middle infielder.

[zzzmanwitz]

You know what, maybe its just me, but i really don't think that over the long term, Hall's Bat will be that much better than JJ's. Sure, right now there is a big difference, but JJ has the look of someone that is going to get better at the plate, i'm not sure how much better Billy can get. That's why I posed this debate as the "long-term" answer. I think anyone would take billy right now over JJ if we were gonna make a serious run this season. But since I don't see that happening, we have to give JJ a chance to grow into the batter he will eventually become.

[hkdakd]

I agree with the above poster. JJ is great as a SS and yeah he struggles at the plate sometimes but he will be a great player and we have to let him develop into that player.

 

I really like Billy Hall and he will continue on in his super utility role like he has before once JJ gets back. Billy doesn't mind as long as he gets to play somewhere at least that is what he says in all his interviews. It seems to me since Billy has taken over for JJ he has had like 3 errors already.

 

JJ is the Brewers SS for a lot of years to come.

[davemakovec]

I would be very angry if Billy Hall were to replace JJ Hardy as the team's long-term shortstop. First, Bill Hall has two years' experience on Hardy, which shows at the plate. Hardy is also a considerably better defender.

 

If you give Hardy another year to find his way at the plate, he could put up numbers close to what Hall's doing. I think Hall is a great fit for the Brewers at 3B.

 

Bill Hall does have holes in his swing, he has trouble hitting righties, and he strikes out a lot. He's not perfect.

[rluzinski]

It's not fair to directly compare Hall and Hardy's bat, since Hardy is still a young player and developing his talents. Hall has already gone through his growing pains. Hardy is an investment; Hall is good to go now.

 

There are always injuries, so with Hall's flexibility, he'll always get playing time. Hall will get 450+ AB, which isn't much less than an everyday starter. I'd be willing to put a small wager on Hall being a starter next year.

[zzzmanwitz]

Well, I HOPE he starts in CF. I really like what Koskie is doing at 3rd and he is a veteran in a very young IF. Ideally, i'd like weeks/hall at CF and 2B, JJ as SS, and Koskie manning the hot corner.

[reillymcshane]

I think Weeks has a better chance of being the CF than Hall. If Weeks keeps up his terrible play in the field for all of 2006, I think you'll see something done in the off season. CF seems the natural option for him. That puts Billy at 2B for the next few years.

[FVBrewerFan]

This is a mess, but a good mess to have. If Weeks can starighten out his defense, I think Hardy should become the new Super UT. Not for the rest of his career necessarily, but it wouldn't kill him to take on that role for a season or two.

 

With the logjam at OF in the organization, I hate to put Weeks or Hall out there unless it's absolutely necessary. (And 50+ errors at 2B may make it absolutely necessary.)

 

The other option nobody wants to talk about is trading Weeks to an AL team. Because, frankly, it really doesn't matter where Weeks, Hardy, Hall, or anyone plays if you don't improve the pitching staff.

[zzzmanwitz]

I don't think trading Weeks is an option. He has the natural talent to be an all-star for many years to come. We've put too much time into weeks and fielder to trade or let either one go. I still think we need dump some of out OF depth in the minors to make room for weeks or hall to play there. Corey Hart hasn't done too much to impress me (not that he's had a lot of time to prove his worth, but so far, i'm not seeing it) I just wonder how people will react when billy goes on a cold streak and comes down to his more likely average of about .280.

[monty57]

If someone knows of a good site to find splits, let me know. I was amazed when FSN showed that Billy is hitting over .400 against lefties (with 1.000+ OPS) and around .230 against righties. I know, batting average isn't looked highly upon by many on this site, but that's a pretty amazing difference.

 

Could it be that Billy's terrific numbers this year are partly because the Brewers have faced an inordinate amount of lefties, and Billy has had some days off against righties?

 

If that is the case, if he were put out there everyday, thereby facing more righties than lefties, his numbers could drop drastically.

[bsglorydays]

Last I checked, the Brewers play in the National League where versatility in your players is a huge plus. I don't want to put Hall in one position when he is so valuable at other positions, too. If the Brewers didn't have another viable option at shortstop, it might be a different story. Hall is going to play essentially everyday, just not always at the same position. His true value to the team is his versatility. Hardy's offense is going to improve IMO, and coupled with his defensive skills, will make Hardy a fine big league shortstop.

 

Hall has proven he can play at least 4 positions quite well. I'm not sure Hardy could pull that off - actually, I'm quite certain he couldn't. Hall's versatility is what allows the Brewers to carry 13 pitchers.

 

Its hard to say which player is truly the better all-around shortstop. The good news is, the Brewers don't have to worry about that right now. Neither player is going anywhere in the near future.

[hauser42]

If someone knows of a good site to find splits, let me know. I was amazed when FSN showed that Billy is hitting over .400 against lefties (with 1.000+ OPS) and around .230 against righties. I know, batting average isn't looked highly upon by many on this site, but that's a pretty amazing difference.

 

I saw those stats also this weekend. I think MLB.com might help.

[1992casey]

First I want to welcome zzzmanwitz and hkdakd. I can tell both are going to be solid contributors to this forum.

 

Regarding Billy's splits, this is a time where I'd like to see how he's done throughout his minor league career. Initially in the majors, we saw the exact opposite, with Billy hitting righties better. Around last May or so, things turned around. In other words, we need to beware of small samples.

 

Here's the difference between J.J. and Billy. J.J. is significantly younger and has the pedigree; he's advanced pretty much steadily throughout his career. Billy has struggled, scratched, and clawed his way to where he is. That's admirable, too. Unlike J.J., Billy hasn't sustained his level of success for a long period. While I think Billy will be just fine and have continued success, we still once again have to at least consider that we're looking at a small sample.

 

What should be done with Billy? He should be starting every day unless he proves to us that he shouldn't be. It's fine to give him a regular spot wherever, but he absolutely should be playing SS or 2B whenever those spots are open. It's easier to replace J.J.'s or Rickie's offense with an outfielder. It's not that way only on this team; it'd be that way on most teams.

[homer]

Hall's Minor League Numbers

 

Don't have historic splits, but his overall numbers (other than the year he played at the launching pad otherwise known as High Desert) weren't all that great so either his splits were ridiculously high and low, or he was just average against everyone. Hard to say, but I'd venture it was the latter and not the former.

[wisportswriter]

When you've got a player like Hall who can play so many positions, and good players at other spots, why would you handcuff yourself by committing Hall to one position?

 

I think the current situation is great. Hall gets plenty of ABs, he's fine with the situation, and you're not pushing out any of the talented regulars (a la Hardy) at your other positions.

 

Until someone else is injured/moved, I see no reason for the Brewers to change their approach. In fact, I think it would be a waste.

[rluzinski]

If Weeks can starighten out his defense, I think Hardy should become the new Super UT.

 

I consider Hardy teh best defender on the team, so I think you keep him at the most demanding infield stop, IMO.

 

Hall has proven he can play at least 4 positions quite well. I'm not sure Hardy could pull that off - actually, I'm quite certain he couldn't.

 

As a general rule, any SS with a decent arm could handle any position (short of C). It's not like Hardy couldn't chase down slyballs in the outfield. He just wouldn't because he's far more valuable at a more demanding position.

 

I was amazed when FSN showed that Billy is hitting over .400 against lefties (with 1.000+ OPS) and around .230 against righties.

 

I am continuously amazed about how ignorant the FSN crew is about small samples. Every April and May, the tv guys are just amazed by some insane split that just destroys logic. last year it was the fact that Jenkins magically started hitting lefties. Bill even had some ridiculous theory behind why Jenkins learned how to hit them. They'd be better off just ignoring stats altogether until after the all star break.