Resigning Grandal & Moose

[tigerbrew]

I wouldn't mind offering 3 year contracts to both Grandal and Moustakas, really hope the Brewers re-sign both guys.

[pacopete4]

See Grandal running tonight. It’s only going to get worse.

[reillymcshane]

The Brewers have a window of opportunity to win over the next three years. Yelich is the key player - he's the kind of guy that can transform an offense. We control him through 2022. That's the time frame that we can shoot for.

 

The offense includes Yelich, Cain (hopefully healthy and better), Grisham and Hiura. As well as Braun and (probably) Thames through next season. While retaining Moose and Grandal would be expensive, it would fit perfectly into the Brewers offense for the next 2-3 years.

 

Let's face it - we have no obvious replacement for Moose (unless a Shaw rebound in likely), and no one for Grandal (Nottingham doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, and the younger players, such as Feliciano, are years away - and are not sure things).

 

With any player, a long term deal is risky. But the options are not great. We simply don't have the talent in the upper minors ready to step in. And we don't have excess talent on the major league roster to deal to fill holes.

 

If we let Moose and/or Grandal walk - we likely replace him with a worse player. Maybe Shaw rebounds, but I don't know. Lucas Erceg hasn't shown he is the answer. FA options are either too expensive (Donaldson, Rendon) or not good enough/aging (Frazier, Prado, etc.). Grandal's replacement would probably be someone to platoon with Manny Pina. Not terrible, but a downgrade.

 

In the end, I think the club tries to bring both back - but there are some big risks. We would be relying on a lot of older players. However, the options just aren't that great.

[sveumrules]

Highest I would go on Yaz is prolly 3/50. Yes, there is certain risk for a catcher over 30 with a lot of innings (5,574 since 2014, 3rd most in MLB) caught, but there's also a huge drop off offensively from Grandal to anyone we could realistically replace him with.

 

I don't think Moustakas has much more of a market this winter than he did either of the two previous, I'd imagine 2/20 would get it done.

[Roderick]

If we don't sign Moose, is DS content with the possibility of Shaw getting right? Talk about a risk.

 

I don't know that he would have much choice. We're not signing Rendon. I don't see Donaldson coming here. And the rest of the free agents aren't any better than Shaw, and are older to boot. Hope and pray on Shaw and try to find a club that has a guy blocked by their current 3B you can trade for.

 

Unless you find that blocked player - I wouldn't play around with Moose. 2 years $25M

[TURBO]

I'm thinking that CC riding Grandal as hard as he has the past month means they might not have any plans to bring him back. Reminds me of Sabathia. We aren't going to re-sign him, so get the most innings you possibly can from them, and let their next team deal with the wear and tear...

[JohnBriggs12]

I'm thinking that CC riding Grandal as hard as he has the past month means they might not have any plans to bring him back. Reminds me of Sabathia. We aren't going to re-sign him, so get the most innings you possibly can from them, and let their next team deal with the wear and tear...

 

Grandal's role next year and beyond if he stuck with Brewers would shift more to 1B as it did after the Aguilar trade. Feliciano could be ready by 2021, and Thames has just one more year of control.

[wntrtxn21]

I'm thinking that CC riding Grandal as hard as he has the past month means they might not have any plans to bring him back. Reminds me of Sabathia. We aren't going to re-sign him, so get the most innings you possibly can from them, and let their next team deal with the wear and tear...

 

Grandal's role next year and beyond if he stuck with Brewers would shift more to 1B as it did after the Aguilar trade. Feliciano could be ready by 2021, and Thames has just one more year of control.

 

Feliciano is an interesting prospect catcher. Brewers are very concerned with his Ks and his blocking low pitches. Almost 32% Ks at A+ is alarming. He hit in the .270s, but has to improve as he moves up. He seems to be a better prospect than Henry. Nottingham seems to have a ceiling as a low level back-up, so they need to look deeper.

[rickh150]

Re-sign...

 

Have to believe they would like one back, probably Grandal at catcher.

[nate82]

Grandal should be priority #1 this off season and Moose can walk unless he wants to come back on a 1-year deal at $8m.

[3and2Fastball]

Hoping Shaw rebounds is an even worse plan imo.

 

I agree. But I think that is what the Brewers will do. They'll go into Spring Training hoping Shaw rebounds while considering platooning him with Spangenburg & having a glimmer of hope that Erceg finally starts raking.

[burnzy24]

Grandal should be priority #1 this off season and Moose can walk unless he wants to come back on a 1-year deal at $8m.

 

 

This is where I am. However, I think Moose may end up coming back on another 1-year deal.

[MrTPlush]

*Clears Throat*

Yasmani Grandal's impact on this team is overrated and should not be a priority to sign.

 

If the cost is an expensive 3 year deal walk away and spend it on someone else. Moustakas will be just as cheap and provide similar offense. I get Grandal plays a more premium position, but I don't believe his impact is so much more greater than Pina that it is worth tens of millions. First off offensively Grandal had an .850 OPS compared to Pina at .725. That is a large difference, but not that incredible. When taking into consideration defense I think the overall difference is greatly diminished. Pina put up 0.7 WAR in about 150 ABs where Grandal put up 2.6 WAR in about 500 ABs. I just don't think the production gap is big enough there to justify a major deal for Grandal.

 

Depending on Grandal to keep hitting like an elite catcher for 3 years is risky business as is. He could turn into a sub .800 OPS catcher real quick and suddenly be average at best considering his defense. Just not worth the risk in my opinion. We are better off spending that money elsewhere.

 

To me, considering we don't have an obvious 3B replacement either, Moustakas is a more valuable player and the better sign. Same impact, less money/risk.

[Dadbauer]

ons. First off offensively Grandal had an .850 OPS compared to Pina at .725. That is a large difference, but not that incredible.

 

It is quite a large difference and Grandal did it while playing every day basically. I love Pina....as a backup. I think he's a perfect backup which means having a great starter is very valuable cause you never feel like you're missing a beat. I don't trust Pina's OPS to hold up that well if he's starting every day and I also don't expect him to play as much as Yaz which means our backup gets more time and we don't even really have a great option there either.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

ons. First off offensively Grandal had an .850 OPS compared to Pina at .725. That is a large difference, but not that incredible.

 

It is quite a large difference and Grandal did it while playing every day basically. I love Pina....as a backup. I think he's a perfect backup which means having a great starter is very valuable cause you never feel like you're missing a beat. I don't trust Pina's OPS to hold up that well if he's starting every day and I also don't expect him to play as much as Yaz which means our backup gets more time and we don't even really have a great option there either.

 

I think Pina has basically proven that he's a solid backup .. perhaps one of if not the best backup catchers in the league. But he wears down when depended on for a near everyday role. I think that if Grandal is not resigned, you at least have to find a platoon mate that can do a 50/50 playing time split with Pina. i don't know if they'd be willing to hand that role to Nottingham or Freitas.

[clancyphile]

Really, when you look at it, the Brewers will have the following catcher situation in the minors:

 

AAA: Nottingham, Freitas, Hummel(?)

AA: Felliciano, Henry(?), Fry(?),Hummel(?)

A+: Henry(?), Fry(?)

 

Hummel hasn't played much catcher, and with the OF time, I wonder if the Brewers aren't trying to make him a poor man's Eric Thames or Josh Bell. He still can play catcher, which opens some possibilities as a bench player. He has superb on-base skills, and he's flashing some very big power. Think Mickey Tettleton.

 

Nottingham, I think, is being groomed to replace Pina as the #2 catcher. He has a lot of familiarity with the younger pitchers over the years.

 

If I'm Stearns, I offer Grandal a longer deal, 5 years, $90 million.

$10 million bonus

2020: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2021: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2022: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2023: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2024: $16 million, $5 million deferred

 

Pay the deferred money over ten years.

 

Use him at catcher through 2022, then he takes over at first base when some combo of some of Feliciano/Henry/Fry/Hummel works out. The NL will also get the DH, and Grandal would be a good fit for that in the latter part of the deal.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Really, when you look at it, the Brewers will have the following catcher situation in the minors:

 

AAA: Nottingham, Freitas, Hummel(?)

AA: Felliciano, Henry(?), Fry(?),Hummel(?)

A+: Henry(?), Fry(?)

 

Hummel hasn't played much catcher, and with the OF time, I wonder if the Brewers aren't trying to make him a poor man's Eric Thames or Josh Bell. He still can play catcher, which opens some possibilities as a bench player. He has superb on-base skills, and he's flashing some very big power. Think Mickey Tettleton.

 

Nottingham, I think, is being groomed to replace Pina as the #2 catcher. He has a lot of familiarity with the younger pitchers over the years.

 

If I'm Stearns, I offer Grandal a longer deal, 5 years, $90 million.

$10 million bonus

2020: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2021: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2022: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2023: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2024: $16 million, $5 million deferred

 

Pay the deferred money over ten years.

 

Use him at catcher through 2022, then he takes over at first base when some combo of some of Feliciano/Henry/Fry/Hummel works out. The NL will also get the DH, and Grandal would be a good fit for that in the latter part of the deal.

 

Cooper Hummel ... you mean the guy who didn't log one inning as a catcher in 2019, after getting a grand total of 64 innings in 2018? Yeah, he's not a catcher. Interesting prospect. But not a catcher.

[clancyphile]

Really, when you look at it, the Brewers will have the following catcher situation in the minors:

 

AAA: Nottingham, Freitas, Hummel(?)

AA: Felliciano, Henry(?), Fry(?),Hummel(?)

A+: Henry(?), Fry(?)

 

Hummel hasn't played much catcher, and with the OF time, I wonder if the Brewers aren't trying to make him a poor man's Eric Thames or Josh Bell. He still can play catcher, which opens some possibilities as a bench player. He has superb on-base skills, and he's flashing some very big power. Think Mickey Tettleton.

 

Nottingham, I think, is being groomed to replace Pina as the #2 catcher. He has a lot of familiarity with the younger pitchers over the years.

 

If I'm Stearns, I offer Grandal a longer deal, 5 years, $90 million.

$10 million bonus

2020: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2021: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2022: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2023: $16 million, $5 million deferred

2024: $16 million, $5 million deferred

 

Pay the deferred money over ten years.

 

Use him at catcher through 2022, then he takes over at first base when some combo of some of Feliciano/Henry/Fry/Hummel works out. The NL will also get the DH, and Grandal would be a good fit for that in the latter part of the deal.

 

Cooper Hummel ... you mean the guy who didn't log one inning as a catcher in 2019, after getting a grand total of 64 innings in 2018? Yeah, he's not a catcher. Interesting prospect. But not a catcher.

 

He's probably an emergency catcher at this point, don't get me wrong.

 

I think it is a mistake to not have him behind the plate, that offensive profile is Grandal-light. Down to the switch-hitting.

[MrTPlush]

Catchers suck, Pina is a starting caliber guy. Probably middle of the pack production wise. He is an amazing back up because we basically have a starter as a back up.

 

I just don't see spending money on Grandal as logical. We have a starting caliber guy in Pina and we can find a decent back up somewhere. With payroll tight having a top catcher seems like a luxury...not a priority. I am basing this off him finding a nice 3+ year deal...if he ends up only getting 2 years it is a much different story.

[pacopete4]

Catchers suck, Pina is a starting caliber guy. Probably middle of the pack production wise. He is an amazing back up because we basically have a starter as a back up.

 

I just don't see spending money on Grandal as logical. We have a starting caliber guy in Pina and we can find a decent back up somewhere. With payroll tight having a top catcher seems like a luxury...not a priority. I am basing this off him finding a nice 3+ year deal...if he ends up only getting 2 years it is a much different story.

 

This is exactly where I am at. If they find a nice 1B catcher to Pina, the production will be just fine there. Use those resources elsewhere.

[clancyphile]

Catchers suck, Pina is a starting caliber guy. Probably middle of the pack production wise. He is an amazing back up because we basically have a starter as a back up.

 

I just don't see spending money on Grandal as logical. We have a starting caliber guy in Pina and we can find a decent back up somewhere. With payroll tight having a top catcher seems like a luxury...not a priority. I am basing this off him finding a nice 3+ year deal...if he ends up only getting 2 years it is a much different story.

 

When Pina wears down, he becomes an offensive black hole.

 

Grandal at least gives you a bunch of walks.

 

Grandal as the #1 C and #2 1B still gets Pina about 40-50 starts a year.

 

Plus, two other things:

1. The DH will come to the NL at some point, and sooner rather than later.

2. The Brewers do not have a long-term option for 1B after Thames leaves.

 

Grandal can address one or both of those.

[TURBO]

When Pina wears down, he becomes an offensive black hole.

 

 

Which is exactly what we saw in 2018. He could not handle the full time catcher duty, but was pretty darn solid as a back up this year. Pina, to me, is a really really good back up catcher. If we can get him his 40 starts and pair him up with Grandal again, that would be awesome.

[MrTPlush]

All this talk about Pina as a back up I would expect his numbers to actually be dramatically different. Except his OPS+ was a point higher last year...and really his numbers are hardly different. If he actually broke down I am not sure why he had 3 of his best months in the last 4 months of the year. His playing time was pretty consistent all year too.

 

I am simply not buying it. I doubt he is any different than any other catcher getting 'worn down' so it seems like a real weird thing to cling to. He is like many other catchers. They have ups and downs and aren't that good so bad months happen. Grandal is great, but I just don't see it being a good investment if the bidding is competitive. I just don't see him providing value that makes him worthy of $15mil or more than Pina/platoonmate. Especially when you consider the risk.

 

Also Grandal as a DH/1B...why would that ever happen? Pay him $15mil+ a year to be average at best for his position? Sounds terrible.

[tmwiese55]

Generally agree with Plush here. Sure, I'd love to have Grandal back but if it requires something big then I think you have to let him go. I saw a 5 year deal proposed, no way for me on that. I think even getting to 3 years for 17-20ish mil is probably pushing it. But, it's not too crazy and I could see it. The closer to 15 per the more I get doing it, but if it just keeps going up beyond that I think you walk away knowing you have a solid guy to take his place next year. Then look for a cheap guy to pair with Pina if you're not confident in Notthingham (IDK a Suzuki type guy).

 

If you're having to choose to spend the money on him or Moose, as much as I think Moose is a touch overrated here I would go Moose since we have no one to take his place assuming Shaw is done. Plus, he'd be noticeably cheaper than Grandal.

 

All that said, I don't think we should diminish at all how crucial Grandal was to this September run. Don't think it happens without him.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Grandal is gone. Pina is probably a 15-20 catcher with regular PT. Pair him with some random guy and split the PT 2/1. Almost everyone's C sucks so just accept it's not going to be Grandal and improve the team elsewhere.