2019-09-15: Brewers (Anderson) at Cardinals (Wacha) [Brewers win, 7-6 -- Braun’s 2 out, full count, 9th inning Grand Slam fuels comeback victory]

[adambr2]

I am told this is the best bullpen in the league, actually.

[82brewcrew82]

Brewers are 12th out of 16 NL teams in runs allowed and ERA.

I want someone else as a pitching coach next year.

That's all I'm saying. It really isn't controversial. One guy is making it that way but reality is we need to do better. He's a big boy and he's accountable.

So are the pitchers and the team has made this clear. Jeffress, Chacin, Barnes........... The players are being held accountable as "big boys" and that is what should happen because they are not executing. And it's not just one person making it that way.

[82brewcrew82]

I am told this is the best bullpen in the league, actually.

Not to mention all the TOR stud arms.

[Bulldogboy]

Again let me be clear. The team has not pitched well this season as a whole. The starters have been bad and the bullpen has been bad. They have had trouble executing pitching 101 which is not giving good pitches to hit with 0-2 counts. We have seen it all season long.

You just called out exactly what I'm saying. The PITCHERS are having trouble executing.

 

 

The young starters flamed out aside from Woodruff. The question is if the pitching coach is irrelevant and not responsible for the results that are significantly worse than last year then you can get anybody correct? Still no need to keep Hook since he has nothing to do success or fail? I'm not buying it. The results speak for themselves.

Nobody asked you to buy it but yeah, that is what I'm saying.

 

 

 

The brewers are where they are despite the performance of the pitching staff. Sure Hook can't throw the ball for them but he can say hey guys when we have a guy in a 0-2 hole let's not throw a meatball over the plate. If they aren't listening to him then that's another issue.

I mean, at this point you're just making my argument for me. No, Hook doesn't actually make the pitches and if you think there is a single pitcher in professional baseball that doesn't understand the concept of pitching 0-2 then I have a bridge to sell you. They shouldn't have to be told and if they do I'm 1000% sure that Hook is not telling them to groove pitches in 0-2 counts. That is just a ridiculous notion. It's not a matter of listening, it's a matter of having the talent to execute.

 

I don't hate the guy I just think a there's a chance that there is someone out there who may be better equipped to get this staff performing at a higher level. I get it he doesn't have the Astros pitching staff but there is very little evidence outside of the Lyles transformation that he has done a good job. That's all I'm saying.

Are you really going to look at the Isle of Misfit Toys that constitutes our bullpen right now and claim he hasn't improved a pitchers performance? What about Woody? There are others. What about the much improved performance of late? There is plenty of evidence including the release and/or demotion of multiple pitchers that played big roles last year. Not wanting to see it is antoher story.

The pitching has not been good enough. Hold the man in charge of it accountable. It's simple. I get it you think he's awesome. As I said before we will see.

[82brewcrew82]

The pitching has not been good enough. Hold the man in charge of it accountable. It's simple.

It really isn't.

[Bulldogboy]

The pitching has not been good enough. Hold the man in charge of it accountable. It's simple.

It really isn't.

Yeah it is.

[82brewcrew82]

The pitching has not been good enough. Hold the man in charge of it accountable. It's simple.

It really isn't.

Yeah it is.

Well, it's not much of an argument and you really haven't defended your self with anything more than your opinion that it's all Hooks fault with no accountability to the actual performers, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Brew crew 92]

I am told this is the best bullpen in the league, actually.

Not to mention all the TOR stud arms.

 

Who’s got a better pen than us RIGHT NOW in the NL?

[Bulldogboy]

You're right. You been losing it all night. Not much of an argument at all.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

You're right. You been losing it all night. Not much of an argument at all.

 

LOL ... you aren't "winning" anything.

[Bulldogboy]

You're right. You been losing it all night. Not much of an argument at all.

 

LOL ... you aren't "winning" anything.

Great. Just who I need to weigh in Joey Gammons king of all baseball knowledge. Awesome. Now I know I'm right!!

[yourout]

Here is how I look at it.

From 2016 through 2018 here are the numbers.

2016 - 8th in runs per game(4.52) and 8th ERA(4.08)

2017 - 5th in runs per game(4.30) and 5th ERA(4.00)

2018 - 4th in runs per game(4.04) and 4th ERA(3.73)

 

In none of these years did I think the Brewers had superior arm talent.

The Brewers had average arm talent and outstanding coaching. Scouting, Mechanical adjusting, in game pitch sequencing was far superior to what I have seen this year.

 

This year they still have average arm talent but the results say below average coaching. Far to often the pitch sequencing is terrible in that the hitter gets the pitch he is looking for in the location he is looking for it. Pitchers can get away with bad location at times if the sequencing keeps the hitter guessing.

 

Yes hitters are still going to get hits and no one is perfect but many games are decided by the right pitch at the right time in critical at bats.

 

Take a look at the list of Arms we had in 2016, 2017, and 2018. That is not a who's who of great arm talent. DJ was probably the best pitching coach in all of baseball and they should have gave him pretty much anything he wanted.

 

2016

Rk Pos Name Age W L W-L% ERA

1 SP Jimmy Nelson 27 8 16 0.333 4.62

2 SP Zach Davies 23 11 7 0.611 3.97

3 SP Chase Anderson 28 9 11 0.45 4.39

4 SP Wily Peralta 27 7 11 0.389 4.86

5 SP Junior Guerra 31 9 3 0.75 2.81

6 SP Matt Garza 32 6 8 0.429 4.51

7 CL Jeremy Jeffress 28 2 2 0.5 2.22

8 RP Carlos Torres 33 3 3 0.5 2.73

9 RP Tyler Thornburg 27 8 5 0.615 2.15

10 RP Blaine Boyer 34 2 4 0.333 3.95

11 RP Jhan Marinez 27 0 1 0 3.22

12 Michael Blazek 27 3 1 0.75 5.66

13 Corey Knebel 24 1 4 0.2 4.68

14 Tyler Cravy 26 0 1 0 2.86

15 Taylor Jungmann 26 0 5 0 7.76

16 Jacob Barnes 26 0 1 0 2.7

17 Chris Capuano* 37 1 1 0.5 4.13

18 Will Smith* 26 1 3 0.25 3.68

19 Brent Suter* 26 2 2 0.5 3.32

20 Rob Scahill 29 0 0 2.45

21 David Goforth 27 0 0 10.97

22 Sam Freeman* 29 0 0 12.91

23 Ben Rowen 27 0 0 15

24 Damien Magnifico 25 0 0 6

25 Neil Ramirez 27 0 0 10.8

26 Ariel Pena 27 0 0 27

27 Michael Kirkman* 29 0 0 9

 

 

2017

Rk Pos Name Age W L W-L% ERA

1 SP Zach Davies 24 17 9 0.654 3.9

2 SP Jimmy Nelson 28 12 6 0.667 3.49

3 SP Chase Anderson 29 12 4 0.75 2.74

4 SP Matt Garza 33 6 9 0.4 4.94

5 SP Brent Suter* 27 3 2 0.6 3.42

6 SP Junior Guerra 32 1 4 0.2 5.12

7 CL Corey Knebel 25 1 4 0.2 1.78

8 RP Carlos Torres 34 4 4 0.5 4.21

9 RP Jacob Barnes 27 3 4 0.429 4

10 RP Jared Hughes 31 5 3 0.625 3.02

11 RP Oliver Drake 30 3 5 0.375 4.44

12 Wily Peralta 28 5 4 0.556 7.85

13 Josh Hader* 23 2 3 0.4 2.08

14 Brandon Woodruff 24 2 3 0.4 4.81

15 Anthony Swarzak 31 2 1 0.667 2.48

16 Neftali Feliz 29 1 5 0.167 6

17 Jeremy Jeffress 29 4 0 1 3.65

18 Rob Scahill 30 1 3 0.25 4.43

19 Tommy Milone* 30 1 0 1 6.43

20 Paolo Espino 30 0 0 6.11

21 Jhan Marinez 28 0 2 0 5.4

22 Aaron Wilkerson 28 1 0 1 3.48

23 Michael Blazek 28 0 1 0 8.31

24 Taylor Williams 25 0 0 1.93

25 Jorge Lopez 24 0 0 4.5

26 Tyler Webb* 26 0 0 9

27 Wei-Chung Wang* 25 0 0 13.5

28 Hernan Perez 26 0 0 0

29 David Goforth 28 0 0 0

30 Taylor Jungmann 27 0 0 13.5

 

2018

Rk Pos Name Age W L W-L% ERA

1 SP Jhoulys Chacin 30 15 8 0.652 3.5

2 SP Chase Anderson 30 9 8 0.529 3.93

3 SP Junior Guerra 33 6 9 0.4 4.09

4 SP Brent Suter* 28 8 7 0.533 4.44

5 SP Wade Miley* 31 5 2 0.714 2.57

6 SP Freddy Peralta 22 6 4 0.6 4.25

7 CL Corey Knebel 26 4 3 0.571 3.58

8 RP Josh Hader* 24 6 1 0.857 2.43

9 RP Jeremy Jeffress 30 8 1 0.889 1.29

10 RP Dan Jennings* 31 4 5 0.444 3.22

11 RP Taylor Williams 26 1 3 0.25 4.25

12 Zach Davies 25 2 7 0.222 4.77

13 Jacob Barnes 28 0 1 0 3.33

14 Brandon Woodruff 25 3 0 1 3.61

15 Corbin Burnes 23 7 0 1 2.61

16 Matt Albers 35 3 3 0.5 7.34

17 Gio Gonzalez* 32 3 0 1 2.13

18 Joakim Soria 34 3 1 0.75 4.09

19 Jorge Lopez 25 0 1 0 2.75

20 Jordan Lyles 27 1 0 1 3.31

21 Adrian Houser 25 0 0 3.29

22 Oliver Drake 31 1 0 1 6.39

23 Boone Logan* 33 1 0 1 5.91

24 Aaron Wilkerson 29 0 1 0 10

25 Xavier Cedeno* 31 0 0 1.13

26 Hernan Perez 27 0 0 13.5

27 Erik Kratz 38 0 0 3

28 Alec Asher 26 0 0 0

29 J.J. Hoover 30 0 1 0 20.25

30 Mike Zagurski* 35 0 1 0 63

[Bulldogboy]

Here is how I look at it.

From 2016 through 2018 here are the numbers.

2016 - 8th in runs per game(4.52) and 8th ERA(4.08)

2017 - 5th in runs per game(4.30) and 8th ERA(4.00)

2018 - 4th in runs per game(4.04) and 8th ERA(3.73)

 

In none of these years did I think the Brewers had superior arm talent.

The Brewers had average arm talent and outstanding coaching. Scouting, Mechanical adjusting, in game pitch sequencing was far superior to what I have seen this year.

 

This year they still have average arm talent but the results say below average coaching. Far to often the pitch sequencing is terrible in that the hitter gets the pitch he is looking for in the location he is looking for it. Pitchers can get away with bad location at times if the sequencing keeps the hitter guessing.

 

Yes hitters are still going to get hits and no one is perfect but many games are decided by the right pitch at the right time in critical at bats.

 

Take a look at the list of Arms we had in 2016, 2017, and 2018. That is not a who's who of great arm talent. DJ was probably the best pitching coach in all of baseball and they should have gave him pretty much anything he wanted.

 

2016

Rk Pos Name Age W L W-L% ERA

1 SP Jimmy Nelson 27 8 16 0.333 4.62

2 SP Zach Davies 23 11 7 0.611 3.97

3 SP Chase Anderson 28 9 11 0.45 4.39

4 SP Wily Peralta 27 7 11 0.389 4.86

5 SP Junior Guerra 31 9 3 0.75 2.81

6 SP Matt Garza 32 6 8 0.429 4.51

7 CL Jeremy Jeffress 28 2 2 0.5 2.22

8 RP Carlos Torres 33 3 3 0.5 2.73

9 RP Tyler Thornburg 27 8 5 0.615 2.15

10 RP Blaine Boyer 34 2 4 0.333 3.95

11 RP Jhan Marinez 27 0 1 0 3.22

12 Michael Blazek 27 3 1 0.75 5.66

13 Corey Knebel 24 1 4 0.2 4.68

14 Tyler Cravy 26 0 1 0 2.86

15 Taylor Jungmann 26 0 5 0 7.76

16 Jacob Barnes 26 0 1 0 2.7

17 Chris Capuano* 37 1 1 0.5 4.13

18 Will Smith* 26 1 3 0.25 3.68

19 Brent Suter* 26 2 2 0.5 3.32

20 Rob Scahill 29 0 0 2.45

21 David Goforth 27 0 0 10.97

22 Sam Freeman* 29 0 0 12.91

23 Ben Rowen 27 0 0 15

24 Damien Magnifico 25 0 0 6

25 Neil Ramirez 27 0 0 10.8

26 Ariel Pena 27 0 0 27

27 Michael Kirkman* 29 0 0 9

 

 

2017

Rk Pos Name Age W L W-L% ERA

1 SP Zach Davies 24 17 9 0.654 3.9

2 SP Jimmy Nelson 28 12 6 0.667 3.49

3 SP Chase Anderson 29 12 4 0.75 2.74

4 SP Matt Garza 33 6 9 0.4 4.94

5 SP Brent Suter* 27 3 2 0.6 3.42

6 SP Junior Guerra 32 1 4 0.2 5.12

7 CL Corey Knebel 25 1 4 0.2 1.78

8 RP Carlos Torres 34 4 4 0.5 4.21

9 RP Jacob Barnes 27 3 4 0.429 4

10 RP Jared Hughes 31 5 3 0.625 3.02

11 RP Oliver Drake 30 3 5 0.375 4.44

12 Wily Peralta 28 5 4 0.556 7.85

13 Josh Hader* 23 2 3 0.4 2.08

14 Brandon Woodruff 24 2 3 0.4 4.81

15 Anthony Swarzak 31 2 1 0.667 2.48

16 Neftali Feliz 29 1 5 0.167 6

17 Jeremy Jeffress 29 4 0 1 3.65

18 Rob Scahill 30 1 3 0.25 4.43

19 Tommy Milone* 30 1 0 1 6.43

20 Paolo Espino 30 0 0 6.11

21 Jhan Marinez 28 0 2 0 5.4

22 Aaron Wilkerson 28 1 0 1 3.48

23 Michael Blazek 28 0 1 0 8.31

24 Taylor Williams 25 0 0 1.93

25 Jorge Lopez 24 0 0 4.5

26 Tyler Webb* 26 0 0 9

27 Wei-Chung Wang* 25 0 0 13.5

28 Hernan Perez 26 0 0 0

29 David Goforth 28 0 0 0

30 Taylor Jungmann 27 0 0 13.5

 

2018

Rk Pos Name Age W L W-L% ERA

1 SP Jhoulys Chacin 30 15 8 0.652 3.5

2 SP Chase Anderson 30 9 8 0.529 3.93

3 SP Junior Guerra 33 6 9 0.4 4.09

4 SP Brent Suter* 28 8 7 0.533 4.44

5 SP Wade Miley* 31 5 2 0.714 2.57

6 SP Freddy Peralta 22 6 4 0.6 4.25

7 CL Corey Knebel 26 4 3 0.571 3.58

8 RP Josh Hader* 24 6 1 0.857 2.43

9 RP Jeremy Jeffress 30 8 1 0.889 1.29

10 RP Dan Jennings* 31 4 5 0.444 3.22

11 RP Taylor Williams 26 1 3 0.25 4.25

12 Zach Davies 25 2 7 0.222 4.77

13 Jacob Barnes 28 0 1 0 3.33

14 Brandon Woodruff 25 3 0 1 3.61

15 Corbin Burnes 23 7 0 1 2.61

16 Matt Albers 35 3 3 0.5 7.34

17 Gio Gonzalez* 32 3 0 1 2.13

18 Joakim Soria 34 3 1 0.75 4.09

19 Jorge Lopez 25 0 1 0 2.75

20 Jordan Lyles 27 1 0 1 3.31

21 Adrian Houser 25 0 0 3.29

22 Oliver Drake 31 1 0 1 6.39

23 Boone Logan* 33 1 0 1 5.91

24 Aaron Wilkerson 29 0 1 0 10

25 Xavier Cedeno* 31 0 0 1.13

26 Hernan Perez 27 0 0 13.5

27 Erik Kratz 38 0 0 3

28 Alec Asher 26 0 0 0

29 J.J. Hoover 30 0 1 0 20.25

30 Mike Zagurski* 35 0 1 0 63

Yep.

[sveumrules]

ERA & runs are one way to measure performance. But they are really more of a team stat since they include both defense & sequencing, which can have a sigficant impact.

 

FIP isolates the elements a pitcher exerts the most control over (Ks, BBs, HRs). In both 2017 & 2018 our FIP was 3% better than league average. Before tonight it was 1% worse than keague average.

 

By this measure our pitchers (not our defense or sequencing) have been about 4% worse than the previous two seasons.

 

I don't believe that is enough to get anyone fired.

[long ball]

Hours later, I’m still elated about today’s game.

[yourout]

ERA & runs are one way to measure performance. But they are really more of a team stat since they include both defense & sequencing, which can have a sigficant impact.

 

FIP isolates the elements a pitcher exerts the most control over (Ks, BBs, HRs). In both 2017 & 2018 our FIP was 3% better than league average. Before tonight it was 1% worse than keague average.

 

By this measure our pitchers (not our defense or sequencing) have been about 4% worse than the previous two seasons.

 

I don't believe that is enough to get anyone fired.

 

 

I guess my question is who has the most control over pitch sequencing?

Are most of the pitch selections coming from the dugout?

 

Is that different from last year?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

You're right. You been losing it all night. Not much of an argument at all.

 

LOL ... you aren't "winning" anything.

Great. Just who I need to weigh in Joey Gammons king of all baseball knowledge. Awesome. Now I know I'm right!!

 

Wow! Your opinion of yourself is also apparently nauseatingly high.

[Bulldogboy]

ERA & runs are one way to measure performance. But they are really more of a team stat since they include both defense & sequencing, which can have a sigficant impact.

 

FIP isolates the elements a pitcher exerts the most control over (Ks, BBs, HRs). In both 2017 & 2018 our FIP was 3% better than league average. Before tonight it was 1% worse than keague average.

 

By this measure our pitchers (not our defense or sequencing) have been about 4% worse than the previous two seasons.

 

I don't believe that is enough to get anyone fired.

 

 

I guess my question is who has the most control over pitch sequencing?

Are most of the pitch selections coming from the dugout?

 

Is that different from last year?

I'm guessing Grandal has the decisions and confers with Hook between innings??

[82brewcrew82]

In none of these years did I think the Brewers had superior arm talent.

The Brewers had average arm talent and outstanding coaching.

So you don't think the 2018 bullpen had superior arm talent? You don't think 2017 Jimmy Nelson wasn't superior to any starter we have not named Brandon Woodruff (and probably him too)

 

Scouting, Mechanical adjusting, in game pitch sequencing was far superior to what I have seen this year.

Examples?

 

This year they still have average arm talent but the results say below average coaching. Far to often the pitch sequencing is terrible in that the hitter gets the pitch he is looking for in the location he is looking for it. Pitchers can get away with bad location at times if the sequencing keeps the hitter guessing.

Is it not just as plausible that the sequencing and scouting is just fine and the pitcher lacks the ability to execute? Again, give me some examples of what you perceive to be bad sequencing. I see lots of catchers glove moving and pitchers missing spots by a wide margin. That ain't sequencing.

 

 

 

Yes hitters are still going to get hits and no one is perfect but many games are decided by the right pitch at the right time in critical at bats. Take a look at the list of Arms we had in 2016, 2017, and 2018. That is not a who's who of great arm talent. DJ was probably the best pitching coach in all of baseball and they should have gave him pretty much anything he wanted.

I mean, I appreciate the effort you put in and at least you are making an argument unlike some others but I think it's a little intellectually dishonest to compare ERA from those years to this year. We all know that the ball is different and juiced and if you account for that those ERA numbers are probably a little closer. Add in above normal performance from some pitchers last year and I think you have a pretty similar staff. The difference between this year and last was a very dominant bullpen down the stretch to hide some of the differences of the starters. We don't have that this year. Introduce a juiced ball to an average pitching staff and that talent level gets exposed for what it is. Occam says the simplist explanation is the typically the right one and that seems far simpler than DJ having some sort of pixie dust. There are plenty of holes to be poked in the "DJ is the greatest pitching coach in the league" thoughts.

[82brewcrew82]

Yep.

At least he's trying to make the point but, nope.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Joey you already know I don't care what you think man. Why jump into conversation that doesn't involve you. Go pet your dog or whatever you do when Brewers aren't playing.

 

I was having fun reading the responses. To think that a trivial position such as the pitching coach is actually more important than holding the actual players accountable for their own performance? It's pretty funny actually. Then you having the ego to claim that you "won" the argument? Heck, that is message board gold!

[Bulldogboy]

Joey you already know I don't care what you think man. Why jump into conversation that doesn't involve you. Go pet your dog or whatever you do when Brewers aren't playing.

 

I was having fun reading the responses. To think that a trivial position such as the pitching coach is actually more important than holding the actual players accountable for their own performance? It's pretty funny actually. Then you having the ego to claim that you "won" the argument? Heck, that is message board gold!

Joey. The dog is very lonely man.

[82brewcrew82]

Joey you already know I don't care what you think man. Why jump into conversation that doesn't involve you. Go pet your dog or whatever you do when Brewers aren't playing.

 

I was having fun reading the responses. To think that a trivial position such as the pitching coach is actually more important than holding the actual players accountable for their own performance? It's pretty funny actually. Then you having the ego to claim that you "won" the argument? Heck, that is message board gold!

I'm going to go into work tomorrow and not do my job and see if my boss gets fired. Makes all the sense in the world.

[Bulldogboy]

Yep.

At least he's trying to make the point but, nope.

I think he's on the right track. Much closer than your take that Chris Hook is the new Dave Duncan.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Joey you already know I don't care what you think man. Why jump into conversation that doesn't involve you. Go pet your dog or whatever you do when Brewers aren't playing.

 

I was having fun reading the responses. To think that a trivial position such as the pitching coach is actually more important than holding the actual players accountable for their own performance? It's pretty funny actually. Then you having the ego to claim that you "won" the argument? Heck, that is message board gold!

Joey. The dog is very lonely man.

 

Nah, this is more fun. Go on, declare yourself the winner again. That one actually made me laugh out loud.