Counsell Bullpen Management

[Storm]

"I don't know why we keep fueling this guy's nonsense...

 

I have rarely seen a poster disrupt the entire message board as much as this guy does."

 

Thanks Turbo!!!

 

I have been a lurker since the beginning. But, as you can see I don't post very often. Got beat up on the AOL Brewers page too often long ago. This is a great site. I hope the moderators can keep it that way.

[Brew crew 92]

I don't know why we keep fueling this guy's nonsense...

 

I have rarely seen a poster disrupt the entire message board as much as this guy does.

Keep feeding the wild animals and they will keep coming back.

 

Says the poster who has repeatedly said how bad a pitching staff, this team has had all year, and that it’s been that pitching and not the offense that would keep this team from the playoffs. Yup.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

But he was wrong in taking out Davies thru pinch hitting and replacing him with Black in the 6th inning up by a run. That’s it. Simple. It’s not the end of life as we know it, it’s just a game. But we lost that game. At least Counsell now knows what most of us kinda knew before yesterday > Black should be know where near a 2-1 lead in a big game in the 6th inning.

 

He was wrong to take out a starter you have repeatedly said you don't like, to go to our pen, which you have repeatedly said is the best in baseball, to a pitcher in Black you have repeatedly said has unhittable stuff? Sure. Simple.

 

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried!

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I don't know why we keep fueling this guy's nonsense...

 

I have rarely seen a poster disrupt the entire message board as much as this guy does.

Keep feeding the wild animals and they will keep coming back.

 

Says the poster who has repeatedly said how bad a pitching staff, this team has had all year, and that it’s been that pitching and not the offense that would keep this team from the playoffs. Yup.

 

That wasn't wrong. This pitching staff has been very good in September. Before that they were mediocre at best.

[Brew crew 92]

I don't know why we keep fueling this guy's nonsense...

 

I have rarely seen a poster disrupt the entire message board as much as this guy does.

Keep feeding the wild animals and they will keep coming back.

 

Disruption?

How about an on topic opinion?

 

Instead of bashing me for the 27th time, you could make your specific comments known regarding this very specific take within this topic or just shush. That’s of course just my opinion, thank you for your consideration.

[DuWayne Steurer]

SO let me get this straight. You are arguing that the Brewers didn't keep a pitcher you have repeated said you don't like in the game longer to justify your argument that Counsell made a poor managerial move. As the basis for your argument, you are saying that the win probability is too low in your mind if they had stuck with the pitcher you don't like.

 

Do you realize how ludicrous your argument sounds like now? It's like you are creating an argument just to argue because you don't like this team's manager.

 

I love Counsell, he’s the reason this team wins more games than any other team in September. He’s the reason we’re in the playoffs.

 

But he was wrong in taking out Davies thru pinch hitting and replacing him with Black in the 6th inning up by a run. That’s it. Simple. It’s not the end of life as we know it, it’s just a game. But we lost that game. At least Counsell now knows what most of us kinda knew before yesterday > Black should be know where near a 2-1 lead in a big game in the 6th inning.

 

 

Stop making statements like this. You can state it as your opinion. Don't state it as fact, and don't speak for anyone else. This is 1A and 1B why everyone is all over every post you make.

[Brew crew 92]

But he was wrong in taking out Davies thru pinch hitting and replacing him with Black in the 6th inning up by a run. That’s it. Simple. It’s not the end of life as we know it, it’s just a game. But we lost that game. At least Counsell now knows what most of us kinda knew before yesterday > Black should be know where near a 2-1 lead in a big game in the 6th inning.

 

He was wrong to take out a starter you have repeatedly said you don't like, to go to our pen, which you have repeatedly said is the best in baseball, to a pitcher in Black you have repeatedly said has unhittable stuff? Sure. Simple.

 

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried!

 

Go back and look at what I really think of black, pitching thread should do it.

 

What in the heck does my general dislike for Davies have to do with anything? He’s been pitching really well lately, which we all know. Your opinions are biased towards me, just like 3-5 others maybe more. But you know what > for all of my early ridiculous predictions, as bad as they were, this last couple months I’ve been dead on. Sorry, but you can’t really mock me for RECENT comments and prediction’s, especially with regards to the bullpen, since I called EXACTLY what would happen before this run. I said this pen would be outrageously dominant AND IT HAS. I said they’d go on a run AND THEY DID. That’s simple facts.

[82brewcrew82]

There have been a few times this year that CC's bullpen decisions have made me raise and eyebrow but I highly doubt you couldn't say the same about any other manager in the league. We just don't know everything that goes into those decisions on a nightly basis. We don't have the mountain of data he has, we don't know when a guy had convenience store sushi the night before or has a migraine that day and can't go. Sometimes there just weren't good choices to make. Whether it be talent, ineffectiveness or injury, the pitching staff in general was a borderline dumpster fire for the vast majority of the year. I'd say it was a huge accomplishment for CC to keep this team above water with that group.

 

One can pat themselves on the back because one of a million prognostications came kinda true but this pitching staff got better in September because the expanded rosters allowed for the manager to use the existing talent level in a way that better fit their strengths, not because they suddenly became better than they were earlier in the year. All CC was doing last night is what he has done all of September. The pitcher didn't execute and that happens to every losing manager every night or there would never be a loser. Applauding him for his September pen management and then banging him for what happened last night just shows a lack of understanding.

[TURBO]

 

 

Stop making statements like this. You can state it as your opinion. Don't state it as fact, and don't speak for anyone else. This is 1A and 1B why everyone is all over every post you make.

 

RoCo, a serious question. Why is he allowed to get warning after warning after warning and still be allowed here? The tone of these boards has really changed since he started, and not for the better. There have been people that have been ousted for far less than this guy over the years, yet he continues to do the same garbage night after night. I'm pretty sure if you polled the board, most would feel like me. Opinion of course, I haven't ran an official poll. It's frustrating.

[82brewcrew82]

 

 

Stop making statements like this. You can state it as your opinion. Don't state it as fact, and don't speak for anyone else. This is 1A and 1B why everyone is all over every post you make.

 

RoCo, a serious question. Why is he allowed to get warning after warning after warning and still be allowed here? The tone of these boards has really changed since he started, and not for the better. There have been people that have been ousted for far less than this guy over the years, yet he continues to do the same garbage night after night. I'm pretty sure if you polled the board, most would feel like me. Opinion of course, I haven't ran an official poll. It's frustrating.

I could be wrong but I think maybe it's been addressed. I notice he's not logged in anymore and he is ALWAYS logged in to the site. And I know for a fact you are not the only one that feels the way you do.

[82brewcrew82]

 

 

Stop making statements like this. You can state it as your opinion. Don't state it as fact, and don't speak for anyone else. This is 1A and 1B why everyone is all over every post you make.

 

RoCo, a serious question. Why is he allowed to get warning after warning after warning and still be allowed here? The tone of these boards has really changed since he started, and not for the better. There have been people that have been ousted for far less than this guy over the years, yet he continues to do the same garbage night after night. I'm pretty sure if you polled the board, most would feel like me. Opinion of course, I haven't ran an official poll. It's frustrating.

I could be wrong but I think maybe it's been addressed. I notice he's not logged in anymore and he is ALWAYS logged in to the site. And I know for a fact you are not the only one that feels the way you do.

I was wrong.

[Brew crew 92]

There have been a few times this year that CC's bullpen decisions have made me raise and eyebrow but I highly doubt you couldn't say the same about any other manager in the league. We just don't know everything that goes into those decisions on a nightly basis. We don't have the mountain of data he has, we don't know when a guy had convenience store sushi the night before or has a migraine that day and can't go. Sometimes there just weren't good choices to make. Whether it be talent, ineffectiveness or injury, the pitching staff in general was a borderline dumpster fire for the vast majority of the year. I'd say it was a huge accomplishment for CC to keep this team above water with that group.

 

One can pat themselves on the back because one of a million prognostications came kinda true but this pitching staff got better in September because the expanded rosters allowed for the manager to use the existing talent level in a way that better fit their strengths, not because they suddenly became better than they were earlier in the year. All CC was doing last night is what he has done all of September. The pitcher didn't execute and that happens to every losing manager every night or there would never be a loser. Applauding him for his September pen management and then banging him for what happened last night just shows a lack of understanding.

 

Lack of understanding? I understand quite well thank you.

 

One of a million prognostications came kinda true? A million is definitely an exaggeration, more like dozens and dozens.

 

Applauding him for his September pen management and then banging on him last night are mutually exclusive? Ahhh no, don’t think they are.

 

As far as CC is concerned, imo, it’s more his overwhelmingly palpable aura of confidence that has this team playing at such a high level. Then the perfect storm of Suter only giving up 1 run in 2 months of pitching, Peralta going to AAA this last time and finding his best command/control that he’s had in 2 years with MKE. Pomeranz finding his niche, Hader his slider, Jackson vs righties, Claudio vs lefties, Guerra his splitter. And of course Counsell knowing how and when to use his pen. Everyone makes mistakes, even CC. Imo he made one in yesterday’s game. That’s it.

[adambr2]

92, I was going to point out that on September 16th, you told us you don't like Davies and literally said "Zach Davies is horrible", but then I noticed on the exact same day you said Davies has been fantastic since September 1st and anything before that doesn't matter.

 

I've got to hand it to you, you cover your bases thoroughly for almost everything. You can take nearly any result of any situation and find a way to say "See? I was right."

 

If Black had given us two scoreless innings and struck out 5 yesterday, I guarantee we would have heard, "I was talking about Ray Black's 'unhittable stuff' weeks ago and no one wanted to believe me"

[Baldkin]

92, I was going to point out that on September 16th, you told us you don't like Davies and literally said "Zach Davies is horrible", but then I noticed on the exact same day you said Davies has been fantastic since September 1st and anything before that doesn't matter.

 

I've got to hand it to you, you cover your bases thoroughly for almost everything. You can take nearly any result of any situation and find a way to say "See? I was right."

 

If Black had given us two scoreless innings and struck out 5 yesterday, I guarantee we would have heard, "I was talking about Ray Black's 'unhittable stuff' weeks ago and no one wanted to believe me"

 

While we try to have a conversation around one piece of ridiculousness, they spout 7 more.

 

There is only one solution to arguments like this: Ignoring them.

[Brew crew 92]

92, I was going to point out that on September 16th, you told us you don't like Davies and literally said "Zach Davies is horrible", but then I noticed on the exact same day you said Davies has been fantastic since September 1st and anything before that doesn't matter.

 

I've got to hand it to you, you cover your bases thoroughly for almost everything. You can take nearly any result of any situation and find a way to say "See? I was right."

 

If Black had given us two scoreless innings and struck out 5 yesterday, I guarantee we would have heard, "I was talking about Ray Black's 'unhittable stuff' weeks ago and no one wanted to believe me"

 

Context matters.

Lots of things I say are taken out of context, like the Black comments, go back and find that comment on unhittable stuff, you might find I said IF he can can command he’d have unhittable stuff. But go thru the pitching thread and you’ll see what I really think of him. But whatever, the games over, what happened is written, time to move on. Black is now out of the picture, and won’t sniff a leverage until 2020 at the earliest.

[Pugger]

Also, virtually every pitcher in the pen is a two pitch pitcher. That's usually why they end up in the pen. Of course there are exceptions, but in general. And of course it seems our new coach seems to think only 1 pitch is enough.

 

For example, take your Black and Peralta examples, they're two pitch guys and Peralta was kind of used as a righty specialist out of the pen last year. Then this year he's been turned into a mostly one pitch guy so even worse. But hey, he did throw 8 good pitches the other days so he's BACK!!!

 

They simply do not have anywhere near 7 reliable guys. They have 1, and even he had a bad stretch not long ago. Seems to have it fixed now though but he's the only guy you can put out there without everyone being anxious that something bad is gonna happen.

 

Yeah, pretty much this.

 

They need a healthy Knebel back next year and maybe even one strong FA option. I still think Edwin Diaz would be a good trade low option in the offseason.

 

I just don't see a lot internally to suggest the pen doesn't need a big overhaul next year. Albers will be gone, and even Junior Guerra who had been fairly good I'd prefer to move on from.

 

I'd keep Hader and Claudio and Knebel for next year and as far as I'm concerned everything else is TBD.

 

I wouldn't mind keeping Pomeranz either. If we had these 4 plus a better rotation 2020 could be even more fun than 2019.

[Pugger]

There have been a few times this year that CC's bullpen decisions have made me raise and eyebrow but I highly doubt you couldn't say the same about any other manager in the league. We just don't know everything that goes into those decisions on a nightly basis. We don't have the mountain of data he has, we don't know when a guy had convenience store sushi the night before or has a migraine that day and can't go. Sometimes there just weren't good choices to make. Whether it be talent, ineffectiveness or injury, the pitching staff in general was a borderline dumpster fire for the vast majority of the year. I'd say it was a huge accomplishment for CC to keep this team above water with that group.

 

One can pat themselves on the back because one of a million prognostications came kinda true but this pitching staff got better in September because the expanded rosters allowed for the manager to use the existing talent level in a way that better fit their strengths, not because they suddenly became better than they were earlier in the year. All CC was doing last night is what he has done all of September. The pitcher didn't execute and that happens to every losing manager every night or there would never be a loser. Applauding him for his September pen management and then banging him for what happened last night just shows a lack of understanding.

 

And sometimes a pitcher CC calls upon who has been lights out has a bad night. It happens. These players are not robots. Even the best of the best have outings that stink. My main beef - if you can call it that - is sometimes CC doesn't have someone else up just in case his first option struggles.

[82brewcrew82]

There have been a few times this year that CC's bullpen decisions have made me raise and eyebrow but I highly doubt you couldn't say the same about any other manager in the league. We just don't know everything that goes into those decisions on a nightly basis. We don't have the mountain of data he has, we don't know when a guy had convenience store sushi the night before or has a migraine that day and can't go. Sometimes there just weren't good choices to make. Whether it be talent, ineffectiveness or injury, the pitching staff in general was a borderline dumpster fire for the vast majority of the year. I'd say it was a huge accomplishment for CC to keep this team above water with that group.

 

One can pat themselves on the back because one of a million prognostications came kinda true but this pitching staff got better in September because the expanded rosters allowed for the manager to use the existing talent level in a way that better fit their strengths, not because they suddenly became better than they were earlier in the year. All CC was doing last night is what he has done all of September. The pitcher didn't execute and that happens to every losing manager every night or there would never be a loser. Applauding him for his September pen management and then banging him for what happened last night just shows a lack of understanding.

 

And sometimes a pitcher CC calls upon who has been lights out has a bad night. It happens. These players are not robots. Even the best of the best have outings that stink. My main beef - if you can call it that - is sometimes CC doesn't have someone else up just in case his first option struggles.

Exactly. Some have a comprehension problem with this but I think you're take is perfectly reasonable.

[82brewcrew82]

But you know what > for all of my early ridiculous predictions, as bad as they were, this last couple months I’ve been dead on. Sorry, but you can’t really mock me for RECENT comments and prediction’s, especially with regards to the bullpen, since I called EXACTLY what would happen before this run. I said this pen would be outrageously dominant AND IT HAS. I said they’d go on a run AND THEY DID. That’s simple facts.

You predicted EXACTLY what would happen? Hmm, lets take a look at that:

 

Team just needs to be within striking distance come September.

 

The brewers run will be in September, when the rosters expand and Woodruff is back.

 

Grisham and Freitas And Yelich And Hiura will lead the offense and Woodruff the rotation. The bullpen should be potentially monstrous with Nelson Suter Houser Peralta Faria Devin Black Hader Pomeranz.

 

The above is what you ACTUALLY predicted. Braun has lead the offense along with Moose and Grandal while Hiura is kind of a no-duh prediction. Grisham has been hot and cold, not a leader and Frietas is exactly what most on this board predicted and opposite of what you predicted. Woodruff hasn't lead the rotation, that would be Lyles whom you don't even mention. That doesn't even count the massive, and more critical, improvement from the starting pitchers, non of whom you mention. You predicted a monstrous pen lead by Nelson (nope), Houser (actually contributing as a starter which you didn't predict), Suter (has been really good), Faria (nope), Devin (nope), Black (nope), Hader (another no-duh prediction) and Pomeranz (has been good). No mention of Claudio, Jackson or Guerra who have actually played critical roles.

 

So yes, you predicted a September run but so did a whole lot of other people (we have an entire optimism thread for cripes sake). So no, you were not unique or forward looking, plenty of folks had equal faith. The problem is that you were almost entirely wrong about the details you predicted that would have made your prediction unique or forward thinking. So you get credit for a generalized prediction Aiken to "I think it might rain in the next month" (of course you would also claim it wouldn't rain in the next month just to cover your bases). And no, you don't get to claim recency bias with regard to your most recent predictions. Your reputation includes it all from day one. You made 'em, you own 'em.

 

Sorry, but them's just facts.

 

CC's bullpen management has been consistent all month. He has done the same thing the last two games. If you don't have a problem with yesterday, or the entire month before yesterday, then you don't have a problem with Friday. In my opinion having a problem with Friday is just a lack of comprehension. It's that simple.

[Brew crew 92]

There have been a few times this year that CC's bullpen decisions have made me raise and eyebrow but I highly doubt you couldn't say the same about any other manager in the league. We just don't know everything that goes into those decisions on a nightly basis. We don't have the mountain of data he has, we don't know when a guy had convenience store sushi the night before or has a migraine that day and can't go. Sometimes there just weren't good choices to make. Whether it be talent, ineffectiveness or injury, the pitching staff in general was a borderline dumpster fire for the vast majority of the year. I'd say it was a huge accomplishment for CC to keep this team above water with that group.

 

One can pat themselves on the back because one of a million prognostications came kinda true but this pitching staff got better in September because the expanded rosters allowed for the manager to use the existing talent level in a way that better fit their strengths, not because they suddenly became better than they were earlier in the year. All CC was doing last night is what he has done all of September. The pitcher didn't execute and that happens to every losing manager every night or there would never be a loser. Applauding him for his September pen management and then banging him for what happened last night just shows a lack of understanding.

 

And sometimes a pitcher CC calls upon who has been lights out has a bad night. It happens. These players are not robots. Even the best of the best have outings that stink. My main beef - if you can call it that - is sometimes CC doesn't have someone else up just in case his first option struggles.

Exactly. Some have a comprehension problem with this but I think you're take is perfectly reasonable.

 

Top of 6:

~ 70 pitches = Davies = pitching great.

Austin > .180 BA

Black > 1 run lead = St Louis = Destroyed.

Hader Pomeranz Suter = need rest.

 

I would argue the comprehension issue is not with the people that scratched the head at the moves made by Counsell in ^^ game.