Counsell Bullpen Management

[jerichoholicninja]

I don't know how anyone can complain about how CC has used the bullpen this year. Hader has been overall decent, a couple other guys have had a good few weeks, and everyone else has been terrible. Just about every option he had was a bad one. It's tough to make the right choice when all of your choices are bad.

[brewers888]

My issue with the bullpen management is that he is way too quick to pull his starters when they are pitching well. Counsell has way too much trust in the bullpen when they have been terrible all year.

[jerichoholicninja]

My issue with the bullpen management is that he is way too quick to pull his starters when they are pitching well. Counsell has way too much trust in the bullpen when they have been terrible all year.

 

I'm pretty sure it's more lack of trust in the starter getting through the order again than how good or bad the bullpen is.

[FVBrewerFan]

Can we turn all these debates about managing the bullpen into codes to save time. We can number every clique complaint made about every manager ever and just use that number instead of outlining the entire complaint again. It would save a lot of time.

For instance from now on when the manager uses a guy too many days in a row all we have to say is 1.

When a manager has to strict of roles for a pitcher just say 2.

When a manager uses a pitcher you feel wasn't good enough to be put in that spot just say 3.

When a manager goes with someone a batter to long just say 4.

When a manager pulls a pitcher doing well and the next one messes up just say 5.

When a manager uses a pitcher who had a rough two week stretch and you now deem him worthless and should have been DFA'ed just say 6.

 

I know there are more so please feel free to add to the list as necessary. We could save more time by also coding the retorts to said complaints. For that I suggest using letters instead of numbers to keep things clear.

 

Brilliant. We could also save time by assigning small letters to the same people who make the points above.

[markedman5]

 

This is going to be big change for us next season......

[FVBrewerFan]

 

This is going to be big change for us next season......

 

Not really. They still could have as many as 16 pitchers, more likely 15. That's still 10 in the pen. Do they use 10 now? No. The reason the pen is so much better at the end of the season are acquisitions and one or two guys promoted.

[Brew crew 92]

 

This is going to be big change for us next season......

 

Not really. They still could have as many as 16 pitchers, more likely 15. That's still 10 in the pen. Do they use 10 now? No. The reason the pen is so much better at the end of the season are acquisitions and one or two guys promoted.

 

Exactly.

Suter’s pitching AND AURA changed the team. Peralta finding his control in AAA. Pomeranz settling in and dominating. Black has been useful. Lyles has continued his “Ace” like pitching thru September. Jackson has settled and improved, Claudio has been good for 2+ months. Hader with his slider. Guerra has been good.

 

Then there’s the Spangenberg clutch hitting, speed defense hustle effect. Austin Freitas Taylor were winners down below and have brought that with them. And finally, we have the Stearns/Counsell September Confidence. 3rd year in a row, it’s there, there’s no denying it. It’ll be there next year too. 9-10 in the pen is plenty, Only 8-9 are helping us right now, and look at what their doing.

[Brew crew 92]

Also, virtually every pitcher in the pen is a two pitch pitcher. That's usually why they end up in the pen. Of course there are exceptions, but in general. And of course it seems our new coach seems to think only 1 pitch is enough.

 

For example, take your Black and Peralta examples, they're two pitch guys and Peralta was kind of used as a righty specialist out of the pen last year. Then this year he's been turned into a mostly one pitch guy so even worse. But hey, he did throw 8 good pitches the other days so he's BACK!!!

 

They simply do not have anywhere near 7 reliable guys. They have 1, and even he had a bad stretch not long ago. Seems to have it fixed now though but he's the only guy you can put out there without everyone being anxious that something bad is gonna happen.

 

I stand by my comment of having 6-7 reliable arms out of the pen. We’ll just have to play the games.

 

We’ve played enough games to have a magic # of 1 to get to the playoffs now and this pitching staff for the month of September:

 

ERA > 2.81 > #1 in all of baseball.

18-4 > #1 in all of baseball.

[Brew crew 92]

Counsell has been sooooooo good this month managing the pitching staff and bullpen, that it’s not easy to criticize him when i believe he erred. But the last 2 games are head scratchers to me. Thursday in Cincinnati, 8th inning, up 5-2, brings in D Williams instead of Peralta. Not a move that made much sense unless Peralta was unavailable. I thought at the time maybe Peralta celebrated a little too much thru the night.

 

But last night, with Suter Pomeranz Hader unavailable, why take Davies out when he’d controlled their lineup for 5 innings to put in Black, who’s last real high leverage situation, he was destroyed by a bad hitting Cardinals team? If he wanted to save Peralta for the 8 and 9th to close, ok, then why take Davies out? Why not let him to continue to deal and control the zone, instead of a wild throwing head case like Black? Just when I think we have a genius manager, this.

[pacopete4]

162 games in a season. You’ll have blow ups. It’s crazy to think otherwise.

[Team Canada]

In Counsell's post-game comments he explained that Davies came out because there was a chance to score a run with a hit. Otherwise he would have pitched the sixth.

[Brew crew 92]

In Counsell's post-game comments he explained that Davies came out because there was a chance to score a run with a hit. Otherwise he would have pitched the sixth.

 

Thanks for the info.

So for a ~ 20% chance to score, we replace a pitcher that’s controlling the strike zone with one that can’t. Wish I’d have heard from Counsell, hey, I made a mistake there. But oh well, I hope it’s a good learning experience anyhow.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

In Counsell's post-game comments he explained that Davies came out because there was a chance to score a run with a hit. Otherwise he would have pitched the sixth.

 

This isn't directed at you, I'm replying to your post because you have the quote from Counsell.

 

My question for some here and fans in general is, why does it require a quote in the paper explaining a move to calm yourselves down? When does someone get the benefit of the doubt? He's not making decisions via a Magic 8 ball. This team has 89 wins against 71 losses while outscoring opponents by 5 runs on the year. I think it's safe to say that Counsell manages in-game situations better than most if not all.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

In Counsell's post-game comments he explained that Davies came out because there was a chance to score a run with a hit. Otherwise he would have pitched the sixth.

 

This isn't directed at you, I'm replying to your post because you have the quote from Counsell.

 

My question for some here and fans in general is, why does it require a quote in the paper explaining a move to calm yourselves down? When does someone get the benefit of the doubt? He's not making decisions via a Magic 8 ball. This team has 89 wins against 71 losses while outscoring opponents by 5 runs on the year. I think it's safe to say that Counsell manages in-game situations better than most if not all.

 

Agreed. Managers often have to make tough calls. Sometimes they don't work out. If the Brewers score there, it's a great move.

 

I'm not saying that Counsell is above criticism. But burning him for this move is undeserved.

[Brew crew 92]

In Counsell's post-game comments he explained that Davies came out because there was a chance to score a run with a hit. Otherwise he would have pitched the sixth.

 

This isn't directed at you, I'm replying to your post because you have the quote from Counsell.

 

My question for some here and fans in general is, why does it require a quote in the paper explaining a move to calm yourselves down? When does someone get the benefit of the doubt? He's not making decisions via a Magic 8 ball. This team has 89 wins against 71 losses while outscoring opponents by 5 runs on the year. I think it's safe to say that Counsell manages in-game situations better than most if not all.

 

Because it explains his mind set, which in this case is flawed, imo. I think we know already, without being told dozens or even hundreds of times, CC knows and fans don’t. But when he makes an egregious error, like yesterday, I’m not just gonna sit there quietly like Haudricourt or McCalvey or Murray or whoever, you know, to not ruffle any feathers. And if we’re being brutally honest with ourselves, how many of us would have pinch hit for Davies and put in black to start the sixth? Thought so.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

In Counsell's post-game comments he explained that Davies came out because there was a chance to score a run with a hit. Otherwise he would have pitched the sixth.

 

This isn't directed at you, I'm replying to your post because you have the quote from Counsell.

 

My question for some here and fans in general is, why does it require a quote in the paper explaining a move to calm yourselves down? When does someone get the benefit of the doubt? He's not making decisions via a Magic 8 ball. This team has 89 wins against 71 losses while outscoring opponents by 5 runs on the year. I think it's safe to say that Counsell manages in-game situations better than most if not all.

 

Because it explains his mind set, which in this case is flawed, imo. I think we know already, without being told dozens or even hundreds of times, CC knows and fans don’t. But when he makes an egregious error, like yesterday, I’m not just gonna sit there quietly like Haudricourt or McCalvey or Murray or whoever, you know, to not ruffle any feathers. And if we’re being brutally honest with ourselves, how many of us would have pinch hit for Davies and put in black to start the sixth? Thought so.

 

Managers have to take chances. Sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't work. Again, if they score in that PH spot, no one questions it. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend? You do not know more than the Brewers' manager! Haudricourt, McCalvy and Murray didn't push it because they are smart enough to understand why Counsell did it.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Because it explains his mind set, which in this case is flawed, imo. I think we know already, without being told dozens or even hundreds of times, CC knows and fans don’t. But when he makes an egregious error, like yesterday, I’m not just gonna sit there quietly like Haudricourt or McCalvey or Murray or whoever, you know, to not ruffle any feathers. And if we’re being brutally honest with ourselves, how many of us would have pinch hit for Davies and put in black to start the sixth? Thought so.

 

You're using hindsight to attack the one time in weeks when not allowing that SP a 3rd trip through backfired. And that's not even factoring in the chance to tack on runs when Davies was PH for.

[Brew crew 92]

Because it explains his mind set, which in this case is flawed, imo. I think we know already, without being told dozens or even hundreds of times, CC knows and fans don’t. But when he makes an egregious error, like yesterday, I’m not just gonna sit there quietly like Haudricourt or McCalvey or Murray or whoever, you know, to not ruffle any feathers. And if we’re being brutally honest with ourselves, how many of us would have pinch hit for Davies and put in black to start the sixth? Thought so.

 

You're using hindsight to attack the one time in weeks when not allowing that SP a 3rd trip through backfired. And that's not even factoring in the chance to tack on runs when Davies was PH for.

 

No I’m not using hindsight. At the time he took out Davies the % is ~ 20% to score. Right?

 

We all know 3 other facts: Davies has controlled the zone and the Rockies lineup with less than 70 pitches thrown.

 

And, Black with his history( think of the last time he pitched with us up by a run > Cardinals debacle)cannot.

 

Then With not wanting to use Suter Hader Pomeranz if possible because of use, we now know we’ll have to cover at a minimum 4 innings.

 

When he pinch hit, I didn’t like the move, but i thought Peralta would be in to pitch and not black, not after what he did in St. Louis, never in a million years did I think Ray Black. Stop with The hindsight talk, not when most of us that were watching the game and seen Ray black pitching the sixth in a one run game, all had the same thought > ugh.

 

No hindsight. Real time shock at what was transpiring. This coming from someone who doesn’t need to be told we would be where we are without his superlative use of the bullpen all month.

 

Back before this run started I predicted it, adamantly defended it happening, jousting with many doubters daily. I knew Counsell was going to lead this team to the playoffs and especially this bullpen to dominance. But when he’s wrong with the most important move of the year, I’m calling him out, unlike the reporters that have to get along with him.

[sveumrules]

Any decision CC made at that point (our win probability when Davies got pinch hit for was about 62%) had a chance to be right or wrong, none of them carried anything close to a 100% guarantee of anything.

 

The one he chose didn't work, oh well, that happens all the time.

 

I don't believe someone needs to be called out every time a realistic baseball outcome comes to pass.

[Brew crew 92]

Any decision CC made at that point (our win probability when Davies got pinch hit for was about 62%) had a chance to be right or wrong, none of them carried anything close to a 100% guarantee of anything.

 

The one he chose didn't work, oh well, that happens all the time.

 

I don't believe someone needs to be called out every time a realistic baseball outcome comes to pass.

 

62% win probability in a vacuum. The moves he made can’t be quantified analytically all the way thru or can they?

 

CC said he pinch hit for Davies to get a hit to score. What’s the % chance that actually happens? I think Austin was 9 for 50 so what is that 18%?

 

Davies for the 6th vs Black for the 6th?

 

Davies till he gets in trouble, then Peralta for 2, which could virtually finish the game with a potential assist from Pomeranz?

 

Don’t know what would have happened had his decision been to stay with Davies until he got in trouble, but I’d say 63% win probability probably low.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

SO let me get this straight. You are arguing that the Brewers didn't keep a pitcher you have repeated said you don't like in the game longer to justify your argument that Counsell made a poor managerial move. As the basis for your argument, you are saying that the win probability is too low in your mind if they had stuck with the pitcher you don't like.

 

Do you realize how ludicrous your argument sounds like now? It's like you are creating an argument just to argue because you don't like this team's manager.

[adambr2]

Because it explains his mind set, which in this case is flawed, imo. I think we know already, without being told dozens or even hundreds of times, CC knows and fans don’t. But when he makes an egregious error, like yesterday, I’m not just gonna sit there quietly like Haudricourt or McCalvey or Murray or whoever, you know, to not ruffle any feathers. And if we’re being brutally honest with ourselves, how many of us would have pinch hit for Davies and put in black to start the sixth? Thought so.

 

You're using hindsight to attack the one time in weeks when not allowing that SP a 3rd trip through backfired. And that's not even factoring in the chance to tack on runs when Davies was PH for.

 

No I’m not using hindsight. At the time he took out Davies the % is ~ 20% to score. Right?

 

We all know 3 other facts: Davies has controlled the zone and the Rockies lineup with less than 70 pitches thrown.

 

And, Black with his history( think of the last time he pitched with us up by a run > Cardinals debacle)cannot.

 

Then With not wanting to use Suter Hader Pomeranz if possible because of use, we now know we’ll have to cover at a minimum 4 innings.

 

When he pinch hit, I didn’t like the move, but i thought Peralta would be in to pitch and not black, not after what he did in St. Louis, never in a million years did I think Ray Black. Stop with The hindsight talk, not when most of us that were watching the game and seen Ray black pitching the sixth in a one run game, all had the same thought > ugh.

 

No hindsight. Real time shock at what was transpiring. This coming from someone who doesn’t need to be told we would be where we are without his superlative use of the bullpen all month.

 

Back before this run started I predicted it, adamantly defended it happening, jousting with many doubters daily. I knew Counsell was going to lead this team to the playoffs and especially this bullpen to dominance. But when he’s wrong with the most important move of the year, I’m calling him out, unlike the reporters that have to get along with him.

 

But you said no such thing until after the fact, you weren't here questioning it ahead of time. Which would be excusable except for the other facts that you have repeatedly called Davies worthless junk (paraphrasing), and repeatedly referred to Black as having "unhittable stuff" (not paraphrasing).

 

It's just a little convenient that all of the sudden you are patting Davies on the back for controlling the zone and maintaining you 100% wanted Counsell to keep riding him rather than turning to MLBs "best" bullpen.

[TURBO]

I don't know why we keep fueling this guy's nonsense...

 

I have rarely seen a poster disrupt the entire message board as much as this guy does.

[82brewcrew82]

I don't know why we keep fueling this guy's nonsense...

 

I have rarely seen a poster disrupt the entire message board as much as this guy does.

Keep feeding the wild animals and they will keep coming back.

[Brew crew 92]

SO let me get this straight. You are arguing that the Brewers didn't keep a pitcher you have repeated said you don't like in the game longer to justify your argument that Counsell made a poor managerial move. As the basis for your argument, you are saying that the win probability is too low in your mind if they had stuck with the pitcher you don't like.

 

Do you realize how ludicrous your argument sounds like now? It's like you are creating an argument just to argue because you don't like this team's manager.

 

I love Counsell, he’s the reason this team wins more games than any other team in September. He’s the reason we’re in the playoffs.

 

But he was wrong in taking out Davies thru pinch hitting and replacing him with Black in the 6th inning up by a run. That’s it. Simple. It’s not the end of life as we know it, it’s just a game. But we lost that game. At least Counsell now knows what most of us kinda knew before yesterday > Black should be know where near a 2-1 lead in a big game in the 6th inning.