Counsell Bullpen Management

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Brew crew 92, you are the absolute king of recency bias and small sample sizes. You really need to create a Twitter account and join Brewers Twitter, because your takes would play perfectly on that forum.

[JosephC]

Well, luck combined with guy hitting massive bombs. Tough to call it all luck. Sure the dribbler before the slam happened, but the slam wasn't luck. And it's not like Rizzo didn't hit that ball hard down the line.

 

Agree with this, there are so many just terrible pitches mixed in with the "bad luck" that it's just impossible to think that the pitching staff is any good. Not to pick on Pomeranz, but he is probably the best example from last night. Gets Rizzo down 0-2 after throwing 2 95 MPH fastballs in the zone, Rizzo looked like he was "on" the second one but just missed it. Doesn't give Rizzo a different look, just tries a same thing for a third time and the 0-2 pitch turns into a very hard sac fly on a line out to Yelich. Rizzo is not Hernan Perez, challenging him with three straight high fastballs and not giving him any other looks is a bad approach. And after going high fastball after high fastball, Schwarber walks to the plate looking for exactly that on pitch #1, and personally I thought he got short-changed on the 442 foot estimate.

 

Again, not to pick on Pomeranz because it's infected this entire staff. Just try to throw the fastball by hitters. Terrible 0-2 pitches. Well, the K% is pretty good, so the high ERA is just a function of just having some bad luck. Not buying it. This pitching staff is bad.

 

Back to Counsell's bullpen management. I completely realize that Anderson had allowed 7 baserunners in 4 innings and wasn't anything even near dominant. But was it wise to pull him before he even reached the 60 pitch mark? Stearns and Counsell have to figure this out moving forward. Either Stearns has to start making big investments to give Counsell starting pitching that he feels confident with through 110 pitches/7 innings OR Stearns has to start making big investments so Counsell is extremely well stocked in the bullpen. And I'm not talking about having 4 good to decent relievers followed by 8 crappy pitchers that are rotated into and out of the last 4 spots under the "fresh arm" guise. Needs to be deeper than that.

[tmwiese55]

Yea general issue with pitching all years has been way too reliant on just fastballs. Seemingly comes back to coaching a bit when it's this much of a trend.

 

For now ripping on this pen by Bc92. Going into this game he had Jackson in Probably Good, Pomeranz in Good, and Albers in Could be Good. Now, manager is an idiot for using them.

[Brew crew 92]

Yea general issue with pitching all years has been way too reliant on just fastballs. Seemingly comes back to coaching a bit when it's this much of a trend.

 

For now ripping on this pen by Bc92. Going into this game he had Jackson in Probably Good, Pomeranz in Good, and Albers in Could be Good. Now, manager is an idiot for using them.

 

Pomeranz is fine. One bad pitch, it happens. Jackson shouldn’t be pitching vs the Cubbies and I already explained why, And a could be good pitcher(Albers)should not be pitching in a tie game vs a team that we have to beat, when there are 4+ better options.

[tmwiese55]

Yea general issue with pitching all years has been way too reliant on just fastballs. Seemingly comes back to coaching a bit when it's this much of a trend.

 

For now ripping on this pen by Bc92. Going into this game he had Jackson in Probably Good, Pomeranz in Good, and Albers in Could be Good. Now, manager is an idiot for using them.

 

Pomeranz is fine. One bad pitch, it happens. Jackson shouldn’t be pitching vs the Cubbies and I already explained why, And a could be good pitcher(Albers)should not be pitching in a tie game vs a team that we have to beat, when there are 4+ better options.

 

You have to cover 5 innings at least and you don't have any other options. Ah, so a good guy can't pitch vs certain teams and/or can only face hitters of one hand, is he really that good then? I can't believe how you can't see the flaws in everything you're preaching.

 

If Jackson mowed them down, Albers got nothing, Pomeranz does well and Hader/Gurra finish you'd be in hear screaming told ya so about how awesome the pitching/pen is. Instead, it's obvious none of those guys should have been used. Reality is none of these guys are that good, so bad days like this happen just too much and it's a crap shoot day by day

[Brew crew 92]

Yeah, Counsell's bullpen management has really held this team out of contending for a playoff spot this season.

 

Not what I’m saying, and you have to know this, but instead of challenging my very specific take, you tangent.

 

No one can challenge you on a take because every one of your takes is borderline crazy, and you don't listen to anyone who challenges you on them.

 

Every one of my takes is borderline crazy?

 

Go back and re-read my original take on CC taking the loss, and if you really disagree, I’d like to know why? Instead of 20/20 stuff, when you know I called CC out as soon as he put Albers in the game.

[tmwiese55]

FYI: Last weekend Jackson pitched 3 innings vs the Cubs and gave up no runs on 3 hits. Fast forward 4 days and the manager is an idiot for pitching him vs the Cubs because it's a no brainer.

[Brew crew 92]

Yea general issue with pitching all years has been way too reliant on just fastballs. Seemingly comes back to coaching a bit when it's this much of a trend.

 

For now ripping on this pen by Bc92. Going into this game he had Jackson in Probably Good, Pomeranz in Good, and Albers in Could be Good. Now, manager is an idiot for using them.

 

Pomeranz is fine. One bad pitch, it happens. Jackson shouldn’t be pitching vs the Cubbies and I already explained why, And a could be good pitcher(Albers)should not be pitching in a tie game vs a team that we have to beat, when there are 4+ better options.

 

You have to cover 5 innings at least and you don't have any other options. Ah, so a good guy can't pitch vs certain teams and/or can only face hitters of one hand, is he really that good then? I can't believe how you can't see the flaws in everything you're preaching.

 

If Jackson mowed them down, Albers got nothing, Pomeranz does well and Hader/Gurra finish you'd be in hear screaming told ya so about how awesome the pitching/pen is. Instead, it's obvious none of those guys should have been used. Reality is none of these guys are that good, so bad days like this happen just too much and it's a crap shoot day by day

 

Albers should not have been in the game, I stand by that statement.

[tmwiese55]

Yea I wish as well. Issue is they don't have anyone else as they're just not that good. Use Guerra there instead and then you're scrambling later and will need Albers then. It's a no win situation. PItch Guerra and he gets lit up you'd be here saying Guerra shouldn't be in either since he's been so-so lately and kind overrused a bit lately. So it's a no brainer he shouldn't be in so the manager is an idiot.

[bjkrautk]

The Brewers bullpen is Russian Roulette at this point; most of the time things work out, but the one time they don't turns really bad.

 

There are things about Counsell's use of the bullpen that I don't particularly like (pitchers working on 3 consecutive games, as an example), but I don't blame him when picking his poison in the bullpen.

[brewers888]

How about we stop yanking starters so early when they are pitching at least decently. It’s foolish to rely on this pen for 4 plus innings nearly every night. This isn’t even about last nights game; we consistently pull our starters too early for a bullpen that is quite frankly terrible other than Hader.

[Brew crew 92]

FYI: Last weekend Jackson pitched 3 innings vs the Cubs and gave up no runs on 3 hits. Fast forward 4 days and the manager is an idiot for pitching him vs the Cubs because it's a no brainer.

 

Also didn’t have the options last weekend that we had in last nights game. I don’t like Jackson vs teams with lots of good lefty hitters, and with Zobrist back, that’s the Cubbies.

[tmwiese55]

Man this is just too funny at this point.

[Brew crew 92]

Man this is just too funny at this point.

 

We all know Jackson is a 2 pitch pitcher. Slider is his best pitch. He’s not really effective vs Lefties, but can dominate RH batters. So with this information in the brain, why pitch him vs a team in a tie game, with R L R L????????????? Why not pitch Black or Nelson or Peralta or Guerra. That’s 4 better options right there. Bring Jackson in later to face a tough RH batter only in a tight game.

[tmwiese55]

Man this is just too funny at this point.

 

We all know Jackson is a 2 pitch pitcher. Slider is his best pitch. He’s not really effective vs Lefties, but can dominate RH batters. So with this information in the brain, why pitch him vs a team in a tie game, with R L R L????????????? Why not pitch Black or Nelson or Peralta or Guerra. That’s 4 better options right there. Bring Jackson in later to face a tough RH batter only in a tight game.

 

Here's why it doesn't make sense.

 

1) You consider him good, but admit he can't get 1/3 of hitters out according to you.

2) You consider him good, yet guys in AAA 5 days ago are supposedly better options according to you

3) He literally just pitched against this team and did well. Yet the manager should not have used him again because it's clear he can't get this team out

 

I don't know how many just blatantly wrong and contractadictory takes you needed pointed out to you before maybe you just chill a bit.

[adambr2]

Man this is just too funny at this point.

 

We all know Jackson is a 2 pitch pitcher. Slider is his best pitch. He’s not really effective vs Lefties, but can dominate RH batters. So with this information in the brain, why pitch him vs a team in a tie game, with R L R L????????????? Why not pitch Black or Nelson or Peralta or Guerra. That’s 4 better options right there. Bring Jackson in later to face a tough RH batter only in a tight game.

 

It's also entirely possible that Black and his 6.33 FIP or Peralta and his 4.72 FIP would have come in and done the same thing.

 

Could it be possible that the pitching staff just isn't as good as you think it is?

[Brew crew 92]

Man this is just too funny at this point.

 

We all know Jackson is a 2 pitch pitcher. Slider is his best pitch. He’s not really effective vs Lefties, but can dominate RH batters. So with this information in the brain, why pitch him vs a team in a tie game, with R L R L????????????? Why not pitch Black or Nelson or Peralta or Guerra. That’s 4 better options right there. Bring Jackson in later to face a tough RH batter only in a tight game.

 

It's also entirely possible that Black and his 6.33 FIP or Peralta and his 4.72 FIP would have come in and done the same thing.

 

Could it be possible that the pitching staff just isn't as good as you think it is?

 

Yes.

It’s not as good as I thought it would be. It’s short one 3 inning pitcher and 1 or two additional arms.

 

But it’s not what most on this site say it is either > bad. Far from it. It has 6-7 reliable arms, which is enough to hold leads, and keep tied close, but it needs 2-3 more to shut down teams, and be able to come into games in the 3rd or 4th innings and hold em down till we come back. If we had Hiura and a healthy Moose it would possibly ok, but we’re short offensively at the worst possible time.

[tmwiese55]

Also, virtually every pitcher in the pen is a two pitch pitcher. That's usually why they end up in the pen. Of course there are exceptions, but in general. And of course it seems our new coach seems to think only 1 pitch is enough.

 

For example, take your Black and Peralta examples, they're two pitch guys and Peralta was kind of used as a righty specialist out of the pen last year. Then this year he's been turned into a mostly one pitch guy so even worse. But hey, he did throw 8 good pitches the other days so he's BACK!!!

 

They simply do not have anywhere near 7 reliable guys. They have 1, and even he had a bad stretch not long ago. Seems to have it fixed now though but he's the only guy you can put out there without everyone being anxious that something bad is gonna happen.

[Brew crew 92]

Also, virtually every pitcher in the pen is a two pitch pitcher. That's usually why they end up in the pen. Of course there are exceptions, but in general. And of course it seems our new coach seems to think only 1 pitch is enough.

 

For example, take your Black and Peralta examples, they're two pitch guys and Peralta was kind of used as a righty specialist out of the pen last year. Then this year he's been turned into a mostly one pitch guy so even worse. But hey, he did throw 8 good pitches the other days so he's BACK!!!

 

They simply do not have anywhere near 7 reliable guys. They have 1, and even he had a bad stretch not long ago. Seems to have it fixed now though but he's the only guy you can put out there without everyone being anxious that something bad is gonna happen.

 

I stand by my comment of having 6-7 reliable arms out of the pen. We’ll just have to play the games.

[adambr2]

Also, virtually every pitcher in the pen is a two pitch pitcher. That's usually why they end up in the pen. Of course there are exceptions, but in general. And of course it seems our new coach seems to think only 1 pitch is enough.

 

For example, take your Black and Peralta examples, they're two pitch guys and Peralta was kind of used as a righty specialist out of the pen last year. Then this year he's been turned into a mostly one pitch guy so even worse. But hey, he did throw 8 good pitches the other days so he's BACK!!!

 

They simply do not have anywhere near 7 reliable guys. They have 1, and even he had a bad stretch not long ago. Seems to have it fixed now though but he's the only guy you can put out there without everyone being anxious that something bad is gonna happen.

 

Yeah, pretty much this.

 

They need a healthy Knebel back next year and maybe even one strong FA option. I still think Edwin Diaz would be a good trade low option in the offseason.

 

I just don't see a lot internally to suggest the pen doesn't need a big overhaul next year. Albers will be gone, and even Junior Guerra who had been fairly good I'd prefer to move on from.

 

I'd keep Hader and Claudio and Knebel for next year and as far as I'm concerned everything else is TBD.

[wntrtxn21]

How can anyone seriously blame Counsell for bullpen management? The pen is complete garbage....just terrible. We really going to blame him for pulling Anderson when Anderson greatly struggles a third time through the order? Another inning of Anderson likely just as bad...at least the bullpen guy is a change of pace. I would have kept Anderson in and prayed, but then again it doesn't matter what he does...he has to pray a subpar pitcher can get outs. Counsell was handed a garbage can to use as a bullpen, shockingly most that comes out of it stinks. Shocker.

 

The pen is not garbage. It has 7+ good options of the 13 that are presently in it. Unfortunately, the wrong 2 were used.

 

Who are your 7+ GOOD options for CC, especially in the 5th inning? Guerra has been pretty good but CC was probably saving him for the 7th & 8th. Hader has been very good since he found his slider, but Hader isn't going to throw 4 innings. Claudio has been great, but he's a LOOGY and he pitched. Pomeranz has been one of the top three guys out there and he got bombed. Faria got rocked. Black has control problems, Nelson allowed 2 hits and a WP. Hindsight is always 20/20. If CC threw Peralta or any other pitcher and he too got rocked you would have been all over him for using that guy in that situation. There is nobody else in the pen that was any better option than what CC used.

[adambr2]

Also, virtually every pitcher in the pen is a two pitch pitcher. That's usually why they end up in the pen. Of course there are exceptions, but in general. And of course it seems our new coach seems to think only 1 pitch is enough.

 

For example, take your Black and Peralta examples, they're two pitch guys and Peralta was kind of used as a righty specialist out of the pen last year. Then this year he's been turned into a mostly one pitch guy so even worse. But hey, he did throw 8 good pitches the other days so he's BACK!!!

 

They simply do not have anywhere near 7 reliable guys. They have 1, and even he had a bad stretch not long ago. Seems to have it fixed now though but he's the only guy you can put out there without everyone being anxious that something bad is gonna happen.

 

I stand by my comment of having 6-7 reliable arms out of the pen. We’ll just have to play the games.

 

Well, they have played 139 out of 162 games, and the pen results in those 139 games would suggest you are wrong about that.

[tmwiese55]

I guess would adjust to say since Claudio has been deployed properly as a lefty specialist I'd generally consider him trustworthy. Full innings and a bunch of righties, no thanks. But they have adjusted his usage appropriately, even if it took 3-4 weeks longer than we all wanted. After Hader, I have no confidence in anyone. Sure, they're all capable of doing their job but they get blown up way too often and that's why their ERAs are all brutal.

 

And yes, we saw the games play out last night and it wasn't pretty.

[Brew crew 92]

Man this is just too funny at this point.

 

We all know Jackson is a 2 pitch pitcher. Slider is his best pitch. He’s not really effective vs Lefties, but can dominate RH batters. So with this information in the brain, why pitch him vs a team in a tie game, with R L R L????????????? Why not pitch Black or Nelson or Peralta or Guerra. That’s 4 better options right there. Bring Jackson in later to face a tough RH batter only in a tight game.

 

Here's why it doesn't make sense.

 

1) You consider him good, but admit he can't get 1/3 of hitters out according to you.

2) You consider him good, yet guys in AAA 5 days ago are supposedly better options according to you

3) He literally just pitched against this team and did well. Yet the manager should not have used him again because it's clear he can't get this team out

 

I don't know how many just blatantly wrong and contractadictory takes you needed pointed out to you before maybe you just chill a bit.

 

I will admit I was less upset with Jackson in the game than Albers. Jackson has been pitching well prior, but Albers is and has been off, way off. That’s the move that lost this game anyhow.

[Thurston Fluff]

Can we turn all these debates about managing the bullpen into codes to save time. We can number every clique complaint made about every manager ever and just use that number instead of outlining the entire complaint again. It would save a lot of time.

For instance from now on when the manager uses a guy too many days in a row all we have to say is 1.

When a manager has to strict of roles for a pitcher just say 2.

When a manager uses a pitcher you feel wasn't good enough to be put in that spot just say 3.

When a manager goes with someone a batter to long just say 4.

When a manager pulls a pitcher doing well and the next one messes up just say 5.

When a manager uses a pitcher who had a rough two week stretch and you now deem him worthless and should have been DFA'ed just say 6.

 

I know there are more so please feel free to add to the list as necessary. We could save more time by also coding the retorts to said complaints. For that I suggest using letters instead of numbers to keep things clear.