Trading Hiura

[Brew crew 92]

No brainer? He has had like two good months in his whole career. No one is signing him to a big extension

 

 

I thought this was about Hiura. No, there's absolutely no reason to sign Grisham right now unless you give him a Kingery type deal.

 

You'll be able to sign him in a year from now cheap if he hits well.

 

He doesn't have a superior eye or great approach either.

 

"Great approach," is a rather vague sentiment to me, but a great eye? I think that's about the only thing he's proven in the minor leagues.

 

Great approach to me means consistently swinging at balls in the zone, and not swinging at pitches out of the zone. Simple. And I would argue Grisham is elite in this regard. And as far as the minor leagues are concerned, what else could he have done there, really?

[tmwiese55]

No brainer? He has had like two good months in his whole career. No one is signing him to a big extension

 

 

I thought this was about Hiura. No, there's absolutely no reason to sign Grisham right now unless you give him a Kingery type deal.

 

You'll be able to sign him in a year from now cheap if he hits well.

 

He doesn't have a superior eye or great approach either.

 

"Great approach," is a rather vague sentiment to me, but a great eye? I think that's about the only thing he's proven in the minor leagues.

 

Great approach to me means consistently swinging at balls in the zone, and not swinging at pitches out of the zone. Simple. And I would argue Grisham is elite in this regard. And as far as the minor leagues are concerned, what else could he have done there, really?

 

IDK, not sucked for 3 years? As much as you can say he's just in a slump so no biggie one could easily say all the AAA run was a hot streak. Truth is somewhere in between. You already control him for 6-7 years, no need to overdo anything one way or the other. Just relax and see what happens, not everything has to be a big indictment on anyone. It's funny how biases show to preconceived opinions, he's just a slump and is awesome. Another guy has a bad stretch and he needs to be benched, demoted to bottom of lineup, traded immediately, for sure not resigned, etc.

[DuWayne Steurer]

If brew crew 92. (Or anyone) wants to start a thread discussing the merits of extending Hiura and Grisham, that's fine. Let's keep this thread discussing the topic of a Hiura trade.

[ThisIsMyCrew]

Hiura and Yelich are two players who, to me, are must see players. I look forward to their at bats because they have elite skills. They also never (or I’ve yet to see them) take practice swings during at bats. Random for sure. I sure hope we don’t trade him.

[HiAndTight]

 

Great approach to me means consistently swinging at balls in the zone, and not swinging at pitches out of the zone. Simple. And I would argue Grisham is elite in this regard. And as far as the minor leagues are concerned, what else could he have done there, really?

 

 

Well to some it means attacking early in the count. Remember how much Yelich's "approach" changed?

 

Approach really just means whatever works for a hitter.

[HiAndTight]

Thought you were talking about Hiura and I could've sworn it said Hiura because it was 1:30 and nobody ever reads anything wrong at 1:30 in the morning. I'm as sharp as a feather pillow at that time, like I'm sure everyone else is.

 

 

A bit defensive, no? Nobody called you out on it. It was pretty easy to assume it was still about Hiura as the conversation only flipped when one person said they were in favor of signing Grisham to a big extension...and of it went.

 

I would argue that it's tough to be as consistently as good as Hiura and not have a good approach at the plate. Or for that matter a good eye. He seems to have pretty good pitch recognition. He still is swinging through too many pitches, but I think it's reasonable to expect that K rate to drop down closer to 25 pct in the future.

 

Reasonably, I wouldn't trade him. You're unlikely to get equal value and he should be a quality top of the order hitter for the next several years. He doesn't have a great arm, but I think he'll get better. Wasn't Utley awful defensively before becoming solid? He's athletic...he seldom really needs real arm strength to get it over to 1st.

 

If you throw out hypotheticals, there are some I'd go for obviously...just like I'd have done that Hader or Yelich to SD trade from about a month ago, but who's going to trade someone equal to Hiura to us? I guess if Altuve had a career-ending injury and the Astros were willing to overpay, fine, but that's pretty far fetched. I'd be shocked if he didn't' spend at least 4 full years in Milwaukee.

[Bulldogboy]

Worst case move him to left and let him rake.

[clancyphile]

The only way I consider trading Hirua is for Bellinger or a similar talent.

 

Or for an ace starting pitcher with plenty of control on an Acuna-type deal.

[MrTPlush]

Worst case move him to left and let him rake.

 

His arm is at least as bad as Khris Davis'....I would guess worse, but it isn't like he makes OF type throws to really compare. Davis wasn't terrible in other aspects of defense so I would project Hiura to be even worse than Davis. If he looks like a Thames/Weeks out there he maybe be way worse. Davis was about -2.0 WAR in the OF for a full season...so Hiura may be around 2.5-3.0 in the red. But again, hard to know what he would do outside of his arm.

 

Keston Hiura in all reality is a borderline DH playing the field...at least that is what he has shown ever since he started his pro career. He is not going to be any prettier in the OF so might as well stick him at the more premium position. He sucks defensively...but I think with his bat you can live with it. Hopefully he improves the glove more. I don't think he is the kind of guy you will hide in the OF. He isn't super athletic in the field, isn't all that fast, and as already mentioned his arm is pretty bad. Ryan Braun had some speed and a strong enough arm where he was going to be decent in the field. Braun types can be hidden...Hiura types not as much.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Agreed that Hiura needs to stick at 2B longterm...his arm isn't good enough to "hide" him in the OF - but his bat is plenty good enough as a 2B to keep putting him there and hope his defense marginally improves. Regular time out there should help, and even if it doesn't I think they need to keep him there for a couple more seasons to exhaust the option of him as a 2B before exploring potential DH/1B roles.

 

If the NL moves to incorporating the DH, hopefully it's within the window where Hiura could simply settle into that role as a Brewer. Until then, you shore up other IF positions defensively to try and offset any downside to having a 0.900+ OPS bat butchering things on occasion at 2B. To me it's obvious that 2B isn't a high value defensive position to Brewers' brass, since they've had 3B playing there more often than not since late July 2018 before Hiura got called up.

[tmwiese55]

I'd slightly disagree in that he's fairly athletic/fast so it would kind of suck to not find someplace he can adequately play other than 1B/DH. I'm not saying he's like Javy Baez athletic or something, just saying he's not a bigger guy who's a stiff that you normally put at DH/1B. If the arm is that bad with strength, then it seems 2B or bust. To me the issues have been accuracy on throws. Reduce the absolutely brutally inaccurate throws by half and it moves him towards respectability really quickly.

[MrTPlush]

I'd slightly disagree in that he's fairly athletic/fast so it would kind of suck to not find someplace he can adequately play other than 1B/DH. I'm not saying he's like Javy Baez athletic or something, just saying he's not a bigger guy who's a stiff that you normally put at DH/1B. If the arm is that bad with strength, then it seems 2B or bust. To me the issues have been accuracy on throws. Reduce the absolutely brutally inaccurate throws by half and it moves him towards respectability really quickly.

 

I'm not trying to say he is Eric Thames slow/unathletic...but he certainly isn't going to cover a ton of ground or make up for bad instincts with his speed. If we couldn't stand watching Khris Davis in the OF I would really hate to see Hiura out there. Any struggle in addition to his arm would nosedive his OF defense to scary territory. I guess I would rather take -2.5 WAR at 2B over moving him to the OF and getting -2.0 WAR because of less opportunities to screw up...just for example sake. I think he is more competent than a Ryan Braun who was a -3.0 WAR guy in just 113 games at 3B.

 

I think he can improve, but I doubt it really ever gets great. I am hoping he can get to a Rickie Weeks level of defense at worst. Which would require a big reduction in errors as his range/arm aren't ever going to give him bonus points on defense. His double play turning has been a pleasant surprise on a positive note. I was expecting that to be worse than it is.

[JosephC]

I'm guessing Hiura will be like Jeff Kent...a poor defender that you can live with considering the offensive impact he has.

 

He was on pace to pretty much be a 4.5 - 5.0 WAR player had he been in the big leagues since opening day and was with the team for all 170+ days of the regular season. If he was a great defender at 2B, he might have the upside of an 8 - 10 WAR player per year. Even if he doesn't improve defensively, he still has 5 - 6 WAR upside with his offensive capabilities...and generally nobody complains about players who post 5+ WAR in a season.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I'm guessing much of Hiura's issues with throwing accuracy come from positioning in shifts - many times the 2B winds up playing shallow RF or directly behind 2B, which makes those throws much longer or from a different angle than where second basemen would traditionally field a ball and throw to first. I think his arm is strong enough to play the position, but he needs more work making the variety of throws the 2B position requires considering all the shifting.

 

His glovework is ok, however Hiura's hands are like stones at times that lead to dropping throws on tag plays or struggling to field sharply hit balls. That can be improved over time, too.

 

I doubt Hiura is in the running for any gold gloves at the Keystone position, and that's just fine. If he hits to his abilities and marginally improves defensively he's a 6-8 WAR player over the course of a MLB season, which is fringe MVP range for a second baseman.

[Eye Black]

The founder of the Baseball Trade Values website, John Bitzer, came up with the following proposal, and I am curious if others would be willing to make this move? I am on the fence about it, but thought it might make for an interesting conversation...

 

Reminder: John is a registered poster here at Brewerfan.net, and may join the discussion on this one at some point.

 

 

Here is a LINK to the below trade proposal:

 

 

John also left these comments on the site regarding his proposal:

 

”The Brewers need to go all-in at this point, while their Yelich/Cain window is still open. Story matches that window, and he’s a perfect fit for Milwaukee, as they’re one of the few contending teams looking for a SS upgrade. They also need starting pitching (hence Gray), would be willing to take on Davis as he still has some field value, and might take a shot on a change of scenery guy in Hoffman. Oh, and they could use Wolters to help replace Grandal. It’s a one-stop shop trade for them!

 

In return, they give up Hiura, a franchise talent who would go to Coors Field and hit like bananas. He’d pair with Rodgers for a young up-the-middle combination that, when coupled with Arenado, could form a new core for Colorado.”

 

 

So would you support this deal from the Brewers standpoint?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

The founder of the Baseball Trade Values website, John Bitzer, came up with the following proposal, and I am curious if others would be willing to make this move? I am on the fence about it, but thought it might make for an interesting conversation...

 

Reminder: John is a registered poster here at Brewerfan.net, and may join the discussion on this one at some point.

 

 

Here is a LINK to the below trade proposal:

 

 

John also left these comments on the site regarding his proposal:

 

”The Brewers need to go all-in at this point, while their Yelich/Cain window is still open. Story matches that window, and he’s a perfect fit for Milwaukee, as they’re one of the few contending teams looking for a SS upgrade. They also need starting pitching (hence Gray), would be willing to take on Davis as he still has some field value, and might take a shot on a change of scenery guy in Hoffman. Oh, and they could use Wolters to help replace Grandal. It’s a one-stop shop trade for them!

 

In return, they give up Hiura, a franchise talent who would go to Coors Field and hit like bananas. He’d pair with Rodgers for a young up-the-middle combination that, when coupled with Arenado, could form a new core for Colorado.”

 

 

So would you support this deal from the Brewers standpoint?

 

Wow, that would certainly be a tempting proposal. This would be the ultimate "all-in" move for 2020-21, as Story and Gray are free agents after 2021. It does create a hole at 2B though. Do they just hand the job to Spangenberg with the hope that he can be a serviceable bottom-of-the-order bat?

[MrTPlush]

Cash strapped Brewers trading away one of their main offensive pieces and then taking on $17mil dead money in a trade? We then take on major salary in Gray/Story (probably at least another $17mil).

 

So to summarize right now we have added about $34mil to the payroll next year, essentially swapped offense between Hiura/Story, got an overrated starter in Gray, Hoffman who was hideous last year, and a terrible hitting catcher.

 

Of course this depends greatly on how you feel Story would hit outside of Coors. His current OPS away from home is .756. So maybe generous saying he will be even with Hiura...maybe Hiura would out hit him, IDK. Figured it is safe to say they are aN offensive wash. While Story plays the more premium position we have no one to even play 2B and the market isn't great. So overall between 2B/SS I don't think we really get better...at least not lets spend $34mil and get exponentially less control better. Wolters "helping" replace Grandal is interesting to say the least. Wolters is horrid despite spending half his time in Coors.

 

This isn't tempting at all to me. I will keep Hiura and go spend $34mil way better ways than that. To me "all in" means getting exponentially better and dramatically increasing your chances short term. I don't think this trade is a dramatic increase to our chances. For the same cost we could keep Hiura, sign Moustakas, sign Grandal, and probably snag a starter for the rotation.

 

I could think of numerous things I would rather do than this trade.

[JohnBriggs12]

Cash strapped Brewers trading away one of their main offensive pieces and then taking on $17mil dead money in a trade? We then take on major salary in Gray/Story (probably at least another $17mil).

 

So to summarize right now we have added about $34mil to the payroll next year, essentially swapped offense between Hiura/Story, got an overrated starter in Gray, Hoffman who was hideous last year, and a terrible hitting catcher.

 

Of course this depends greatly on how you feel Story would hit outside of Coors. His current OPS away from home is .756. So maybe generous saying he will be even with Hiura...maybe Hiura would out hit him, IDK. Figured it is safe to say they are aN offensive wash. While Story plays the more premium position we have no one to even play 2B and the market isn't great. So overall between 2B/SS I don't think we really get better...at least not lets spend $34mil and get exponentially less control better. Wolters "helping" replace Grandal is interesting to say the least. Wolters is horrid despite spending half his time in Coors.

 

This isn't tempting at all to me. I will keep Hiura and go spend $34mil way better ways than that. To me "all in" means getting exponentially better and dramatically increasing your chances short term. I don't think this trade is a dramatic increase to our chances. For the same cost we could keep Hiura, sign Moustakas, sign Grandal, and probably snag a starter for the rotation.

 

I could think of numerous things I would rather do than this trade.

 

Ditto. The last thing this team needs if it's going all in is dead money and losing a premier bat with the kind of control Hiura. It's not enough return to get them over the hump and almost assures a fire sale rebuild in 2022.

[A Swing and A Drive]

So this proposal is essentially trading Keston Huira for two expensive years of Trevor Story and the Rockies garbage?

 

I'm sure the Rockies would do this in a heartbeat.

[pacopete4]

Yeah, I don't quite get that trade. I'm all for moving Hiura if the price is right but that certainly isn't it.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I'm obviously skewed. I've always liked Trevor Story. I think Gray and Hoffman are prime bounce-back candidates too.

[adambr2]

Uh, Jon Gray is not "garbage". He is a major part of this deal.

 

I'm not saying I'd for sure do it, but to call Gray garbage is just really inaccurate.

[jjfanec]

Gray is weird because he was worse away from Coors field this year. Overall on the year his numbers were pretty solid actually.

 

You would get two years of Gray. Two years of Story. Hoffman has been brutal in the majors but I guess he could bounce back. Not sure I do that for Huira but it would definitely help us the next two years

[MadThinker88]

Uh, Jon Gray is not "garbage". He is a major part of this deal.

I'm not saying I'd for sure do it, but to call Gray garbage is just really inaccurate.

 

Where is the like/ +1 button to support & back these comments????

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

If they could find a way to pry Kyle Freeland away instead of one of the other pieces, I would be really on board. He had a pretty terrible 2019, but looked like an ace in 2018. He's another prime bounce-back guy.