Is Counsell the Right Manager for the Brewers?

[pacopete4]

At the end of the day it’s tough to be happy with the 30th ranked farm, a horrible pitching staff, and some guys on one year deals to go with Hiura and Yelich.

 

Can you provide the source to that ranking?

[trwi7]

At the end of the day it’s tough to be happy with the 30th ranked farm, a horrible pitching staff, and some guys on one year deals to go with Hiura and Yelich.

 

Can you provide the source to that ranking?

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2019/07/29/baseball-america-ranks-brewers-farm-system-dead-last/1859346001/

 

I haven't seen it ranked higher than 27th. So 27th, 30th, either way it's crap and very likely isn't going to provide us any help any time soon.

[pacopete4]

At the end of the day it’s tough to be happy with the 30th ranked farm, a horrible pitching staff, and some guys on one year deals to go with Hiura and Yelich.

 

Can you provide the source to that ranking?

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2019/07/29/baseball-america-ranks-brewers-farm-system-dead-last/1859346001/

 

I haven't seen it ranked higher than 27th. So 27th, 30th, either way it's crap and very likely isn't going to provide us any help any time soon.

 

Never seen a bigger Eeyore.

[Brew crew 92]

At the end of the day it’s tough to be happy with the 30th ranked farm, a horrible pitching staff, and some guys on one year deals to go with Hiura and Yelich.

 

Can you provide the source to that ranking?

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/mlb/brewers/2019/07/29/baseball-america-ranks-brewers-farm-system-dead-last/1859346001/

 

I haven't seen it ranked higher than 27th. So 27th, 30th, either way it's crap and very likely isn't going to provide us any help any time soon.

 

It’s really like 2 different farms.

 

Position player prospects few and far between. Probably no team has less.

 

Pitching is ridiculously underrated. I mean silly ridiculously underrated. Every level, every team, is loaded with them. And it’s not just me that thinks this.

[trwi7]

And it’s not just me that thinks this.

 

People who actually do this for a living think you're wrong, so I'll go with them.

[Brew crew 92]

And it’s not just me that thinks this.

 

People who actually do this for a living think you're wrong, so I'll go with them.

 

That’s fine, I’ll go with “and that”. I’m 100% sure he knows 10,000 times more in depth knowledge on the crew’s system, than a lazy, months late take from a publication that has to cover 30 teams.

[Smichaelis9]

And it’s not just me that thinks this.

 

People who actually do this for a living think you're wrong, so I'll go with them.

These guys are good at their jobs, but that doesn't mean they're perfect or could truly know the depth of a system.

 

In 2012 the Rangers ranked as Baseball America's 2nd best farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Jurickson Profar, Martín Pérez, Mike Olt, Leonys Martín, and Neil Ramirez.

 

Also in 2012 the Marlins ranked as Baseball America's 28th farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Christian Yelich, Marcell Ozuna, Jose Fernandez, Matt Dominguez, and JT Realmuto.

[trwi7]

And it’s not just me that thinks this.

 

People who actually do this for a living think you're wrong, so I'll go with them.

 

That’s fine, I’ll go with “and that”. I’m 100% sure he knows 10,000 times more in depth knowledge on the crew’s system, than a lazy, months late take from a publication that has to cover 30 teams.

 

You go right ahead and go with the Brewers fan, because there might not be any bias there or anything and I'm sure even he would agree that our farm system is pretty bad compared to the rest of MLB.

[trwi7]

And it’s not just me that thinks this.

 

People who actually do this for a living think you're wrong, so I'll go with them.

These guys are good at their jobs, but that doesn't mean they're perfect or could truly know the depth of a system.

 

In 2012 the Rangers ranked as Baseball America's 2nd best farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Jurickson Profar, Martín Pérez, Mike Olt, Leonys Martín, and Neil Ramirez.

 

Also in 2012 the Marlins ranked as Baseball America's 28th farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Christian Yelich, Marcell Ozuna, Jose Fernandez, Matt Dominguez, and JT Realmuto.

 

Wonderful. It's obviously an inexact science but I'll take the word of BA, MLB Pipeline and whoever else over Brew crew 92 telling me on a message board that our pitching is "ridiculously underrated, silly, ridiculously underrated, every level, every team, is loaded with them."

[Boomer5]

And it’s not just me that thinks this.

 

People who actually do this for a living think you're wrong, so I'll go with them.

 

That’s fine, I’ll go with “and that”. I’m 100% sure he knows 10,000 times more in depth knowledge on the crew’s system, than a lazy, months late take from a publication that has to cover 30 teams.

 

And That puts in some incredible time and effort no doubt. However minor league pitching development is notoriously fickle and frustrating. Every team in the league has good “potential” at the lower levels, then reality outpaces potential and you know the rest. Even slam dunks like Burnes and to an extent Peralta should give anyone pause calling a guy in low A a done deal to contribute.

 

There are posters still thinking Nelson and Sutter are meaningful assets so that tells you all you need to know about our pitching reality.

[Smichaelis9]

Wonderful. It's obviously an inexact science but I'll take the word of BA, MLB Pipeline and whoever else over Brew crew 92 telling me on a message board that our pitching is "ridiculously underrated, silly, ridiculously underrated, every level, every team, is loaded with them."

There is obviously a middle ground and I personally think And That is a good person to listen to. He's never been afraid to be down on Brewers prospects that he didn't believe in, and he's been right on guys that the big publications have given up on. But yes, BC92 is obviously a hyperbolic guy...

[Brew crew 92]

Ha, maybe a little hyperbole with every level every team loaded with them. If I could edit that post, it might be more accurate to state lots and lots of really good pitching prospects scattered throughout the system.

[wntrtxn21]

And it’s not just me that thinks this.

 

People who actually do this for a living think you're wrong, so I'll go with them.

These guys are good at their jobs, but that doesn't mean they're perfect or could truly know the depth of a system.

 

In 2012 the Rangers ranked as Baseball America's 2nd best farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Jurickson Profar, Martín Pérez, Mike Olt, Leonys Martín, and Neil Ramirez.

 

Also in 2012 the Marlins ranked as Baseball America's 28th farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Christian Yelich, Marcell Ozuna, Jose Fernandez, Matt Dominguez, and JT Realmuto.

 

I went to 3 different sites for 2012 and the LOWEST rating for the Marlins was #13. The highest was #10. I can't believe any credible site had the Marlins the 3rd WORST farm in 2012.

[Boomer5]

Technically Nick Ramirez became a major league pitcher but that’s not what you are looking for when you are developing pitching on the farm.

[Oxy]

 

People who actually do this for a living think you're wrong, so I'll go with them.

These guys are good at their jobs, but that doesn't mean they're perfect or could truly know the depth of a system.

 

In 2012 the Rangers ranked as Baseball America's 2nd best farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Jurickson Profar, Martín Pérez, Mike Olt, Leonys Martín, and Neil Ramirez.

 

Also in 2012 the Marlins ranked as Baseball America's 28th farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Christian Yelich, Marcell Ozuna, Jose Fernandez, Matt Dominguez, and JT Realmuto.

 

I went to 3 different sites for 2012 and the LOWEST rating for the Marlins was #13. The highest was #10. I can't believe any credible site had the Marlins the 3rd WORST farm in 2012.

 

Prospect ratings are always going to be goofy--even in retrospect. 6 years from now looking back on our prospects in 2019 one will come to drastically different conclusions about the state of the farm system depending on if Hiura and Grisham are included...not to mention Burnes and Peralta...

[Smichaelis9]

These guys are good at their jobs, but that doesn't mean they're perfect or could truly know the depth of a system.

 

In 2012 the Rangers ranked as Baseball America's 2nd best farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Jurickson Profar, Martín Pérez, Mike Olt, Leonys Martín, and Neil Ramirez.

 

Also in 2012 the Marlins ranked as Baseball America's 28th farm system. Their top 5 prospects were listed as Christian Yelich, Marcell Ozuna, Jose Fernandez, Matt Dominguez, and JT Realmuto.

 

I went to 3 different sites for 2012 and the LOWEST rating for the Marlins was #13. The highest was #10. I can't believe any credible site had the Marlins the 3rd WORST farm in 2012.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2012-mlb-organizational-rankings/%3famphtml *shrug* this is what I’ve got, but Rangers were actually #1...

[tmwiese55]

Just clicked on that list and other things that stood out to me were Cle and Mets also being bottom 5 in that. Now, of course I don't want to dig into where exactly all their pitchers were at that point. But obviously Cle has been winning ever since then and doing it with their own pitchers and players as they haven't really signed anyone other than Encarnacion and Santana, and however they got Andrew Miller.

 

Mets of course have brought up ace level pitcher after pitcher. My quick check leads me to believe Degrom, Harvey, Wheeler, Matz were all there by then. Syndegaard traded to them in that year so it depends on when the list was compiled for him. I don't recall for sure on their in house hitters but a few seemingly would've come up through then as well, guys like Conforto and a few others, plus being 7 years back I don't know who was there by then.

[Brew crew 92]

Just clicked on that list and other things that stood out to me were Cle and Mets also being bottom 5 in that. Now, of course I don't want to dig into where exactly all their pitchers were at that point. But obviously Cle has been winning ever since then and doing it with their own pitchers and players as they haven't really signed anyone other than Encarnacion and Santana, and however they got Andrew Miller.

 

Mets of course have brought up ace level pitcher after pitcher. My quick check leads me to believe Degrom, Harvey, Wheeler, Matz were all there by then. Syndegaard traded to them in that year so it depends on when the list was compiled for him. I don't recall for sure on their in house hitters but a few seemingly would've come up through then as well, guys like Conforto and a few others, plus being 7 years back I don't know who was there by then.

 

Bingo.

How can these publications be taken seriously with as often as they’re wrong on their ratings, predictions and projections?

 

I mean, to rate Trent Grisham as only the 7th best prospect in the brewers system is laughable isn’t it?

[tmwiese55]

Going into the year, no it was not crazy to rate him like that. I was at the T Rats game last Friday and in their little booklet with the rosters etc they had a Brewers top 30 list of prospects. I assume it was done pre season, Grisham was ranked 30th and that's by their own org. Also, from that game our 1st round pick this year was the starting P and went about 4-5 innings no hit. Fastball never really got up above low 90s but sure seemed to pound the zone.

 

Still, even if we can point out times they're wrong like we did on that list. As others have said, it's inexact science so that's a bit of the nature of it all. But in general, over the long haul they're going to be more accurate than jabronis like us who have never watched any of these guys actually play a game.

[bill hAll Star]

The draftniks were wrong about Tom Brady, so if they tell me that Trevor Lawrence will be a stud and top 3 pick, I will not believe them because of that one time.

[Smichaelis9]

My point wasn’t to say, don’t believe them or anything they say or put out there in regards to prospects for us or other teams. It was simply to say don’t take their word as gospel either, which I think the majority of you know anyway.

[bill hAll Star]

My point wasn’t to say, don’t believe them or anything they say or put out there in regards to prospects for us or other teams. It was simply to say don’t take their word as gospel either, which I think the majority of you know anyway.

 

I'm on your side here, mostly. I agree that farm rankings can be off in baseball (though maybe not to the degree you had suggested). I was mostly responding to the idea that, "they were wrong about Grisham! [maybe?] Never believe a word they say again!"

[RollieTime]

Not sure why people are so worked up about the Trent Grisham ranking so much. Even on OUR OWN poll on here before the season, we had him ranked 18th. If he’s that far down in our own system, I don’t see why people are so frustrated with the mid-season ranking for him and saying these different people that put out rankings of prospects are so far off base when we ourselves started putting him as an afterthought in a way.

 

One good half season doesn’t vault a guy into the top 50 prospects in baseball when he was a below average to average outfielder with very little pop for 3 years. Yes he developed some more power this season, but he was still only hitting .254 in AA through 63 games. The mid-season poll probably came out only a couple weeks into his AAA stint, where they had to look at how he performed in AA, which really wasn’t that otherworldly. He really picked it up in AAA for about 6 weeks and that’s where he really started making a name for himself. But there’s no way he’s going to go from a guy in the 250-500 prospect range and become highly touted in a couple months. At least not by anyone else other than people within the organization or fans of that team.

[trwi7]

Mets of course have brought up ace level pitcher after pitcher. My quick check leads me to believe Degrom, Harvey, Wheeler, Matz were all there by then. Syndegaard traded to them in that year so it depends on when the list was compiled for him. I don't recall for sure on their in house hitters but a few seemingly would've come up through then as well, guys like Conforto and a few others, plus being 7 years back I don't know who was there by then.

 

deGrom was a 24 year old pitching in A ball and put up fine but not spectacular numbers. Harvey was in the majors. Matz had just made his professional debut after being drafted in 2009. Syndergaard wasn't traded to the Mets until the winter of 2012.

[tmwiese55]

Mets of course have brought up ace level pitcher after pitcher. My quick check leads me to believe Degrom, Harvey, Wheeler, Matz were all there by then. Syndegaard traded to them in that year so it depends on when the list was compiled for him. I don't recall for sure on their in house hitters but a few seemingly would've come up through then as well, guys like Conforto and a few others, plus being 7 years back I don't know who was there by then.

 

deGrom was a 24 year old pitching in A ball and put up fine but not spectacular numbers. Harvey was in the majors. Matz had just made his professional debut after being drafted in 2009. Syndergaard wasn't traded to the Mets until the winter of 2012.

 

So as said they were all there and it was still ranked that low. Depending on when the list was done, Harvey would be on it or Syndegaard would be on it. As you point out It was all understandable as to why, plus maybe combine that with no higher end hitting prospects and boom a low ranking. That was kind of the point being made though, in that this stuff isn't gospel. And that even if the 'depth' isn't there that would lead to a high ranking it doesn't mean you're not going to pull out contributors like it seems MKE has kind of done lately. Really, I just happened to click on it and be surprised to see those two teams so low, I assume it was a quirk and not all that common to find it like that, was just pointing out that I thought it was interesting without trying to make too much of a point. Plus as I note it was 7 years so too much to dig into where everyone was for both teams. Cle was really the shocker to me when I saw it.

 

And as I said, I agree with your overall side of all this that those folks making the list are going to shoot at a much higher rate than us idiots. It's just that even their % is going to be quite low due to the nature of the list, which I guess is kinda like baseball in general.