Is Counsell the Right Manager for the Brewers?

[RollieTime]

I think it is time to have a discussion on Counsell and if he is the right guy for the Brewers.

 

I was never a fan of the hiring of Counsell to become the manager from day 1, but I was open to seeing what he does in his first shot at managing.

 

I made my decision a couple years ago that I didn’t think he is the right guy for the job. I don’t like the way he handles the bullpen. Too many times where it is obvious to everybody (except Counsell) who should be brought in, but he will go with somebody that is struggling instead. His in game managing is questionable at best.

 

I personally do not like how he very rarely stands up for his players during games. Brewers pitchers will get squeezed and the hitters will get rung up on terrible calls, and Counsell will shake his head in the dugout and that’s it. It could just be my opinion, but when I played and when I watch games, I have much more respect for a coach that will stick up for his guys and let the umpire know he screwed up. I don’t see this at all from Counsell. He is a fairly reserved manager, lacks outward passion for the game, and always seems bored and uninterested.

 

And finally, the lineup tinkering game to game. I made a thread last year and was mostly met with criticism, but it’s something I still stand behind. Guys will NOT perform as well if they are constantly being yanked around. Start for one game, ride the bench for a game, pinch hit the next game, and then start the next. A lot of players find it difficult to be on the top of their game when they are given inconsistent playing time or getting a pinch hit opportunity during the game. There are a few times this year where a guy gets 3 homeruns in a 3 day span and gets benched, or someone like Braun, who recently hit two homeruns in a game, and is benched the next day. I know there are other examples of odd lineup decisions when guys are playing well and getting benched or being trotted out there even when they are struggling mightily. I’ve seen people mention it in the past as keeping everybody involved and not getting rusty. I view it a different way as having your guys get rusty by taking them out of their groove and getting them out of their “flow” when they are playing well or getting hot.

 

I really don’t think Counsell is the guy to lead us to our first World Series win. I haven’t been able to watch many games recently, but if the guys are flat and uninterested like I’ve read in some recent in game threads, when they are in the middle of a playoff race, then something else could be going on. Even if there was something going on in the clubhouse, you will rarely if ever hear players bash a manager while he is still with the team. I know we haven’t heard anything negative about Counsell since he’s been there, but at some point down the road when he isn’t the manager, I wonder if any players will say anything. I don’t think the lack of players talking publicly in a negative way right now means there isn’t something going on.

 

Looking forward to seeing what other people see and feel in regards to Counsell, his decision making, and what he brings or doesn’t bring to the table.

[Roderick]

Too many times where it is obvious to everybody (except Counsell) who should be brought in, but he will go with somebody that is struggling instead.

 

I'm sure you could have figured out how to make this bullpen good.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The guys being flat and disinterested in just fan forum nonsense. You don't win a 14-inning road game at 2am against a contender if you're either one of those things. Fans love equating a lack of success with "not trying" or something else. Let's at least be realistic. These are pros with contracts on the line and a season that still isn't dead even now. Everybody is trying.

 

Moreover, Counsell was just recently voted one of the most respected managers in some poll by players, someone else can cite exactly what it was. Now, there may be merit to what you're saying, maybe he's not the right guy. But again, can we just step off the ledge a bit around here? This team was in Game 7 of the NLCS last year. He seemed right then. And we're going to do what exactly? Replace him with who? How do we know that is the right guy?

 

Counsell is here for now. I would think he'd got at least until 2021 and if we stink next year, he'll enter that season on the hot seat. We can discuss it all we want but he is not getting fired.

 

As an aside, I'm personally over the whole, you have to scream at the ump and kick and throw things on the field like a 5-year-old or you lack passion. There is absolutely nothing you can glean from whether or not a guy throws a tantrum as it relates to their fitness to be a manager. I don't think that shows anything other than a lack of self control.

[Baldkin]

I think it is time to have a discussion on Counsell and if he is the right guy for the Brewers.

 

I was never a fan of the hiring of Counsell to become the manager from day 1, but I was open to seeing what he does in his first shot at managing.

 

I made my decision a couple years ago that I didn’t think he is the right guy for the job. I don’t like the way he handles the bullpen. Too many times where it is obvious to everybody (except Counsell) who should be brought in, but he will go with somebody that is struggling instead. His in game managing is questionable at best.

 

Why? Who's better? He manages very satistically and puts his players in the best position to succeed. 1 player in 4 years has complained about the organization and how they've handled them (Tyler Cravy) Clearly he's doing something right.

 

I personally do not like how he very rarely stands up for his players during games. Brewers pitchers will get squeezed and the hitters will get rung up on terrible calls, and Counsell will shake his head in the dugout and that’s it. It could just be my opinion, but when I played and when I watch games, I have much more respect for a coach that will stick up for his guys and let the umpire know he screwed up. I don’t see this at all from Counsell. He is a fairly reserved manager, lacks outward passion for the game, and always seems bored and uninterested.

 

Throwing a tantrum like a 12 year old while trying to show up the umpire is not how you win them over.

 

And finally, the lineup tinkering game to game. I made a thread last year and was mostly met with criticism, but it’s something I still stand behind. Guys will NOT perform as well if they are constantly being yanked around. Start for one game, ride the bench for a game, pinch hit the next game, and then start the next. A lot of players find it difficult to be on the top of their game when they are given inconsistent playing time or getting a pinch hit opportunity during the game. There are a few times this year where a guy gets 3 homeruns in a 3 day span and gets benched, or someone like Braun, who recently hit two homeruns in a game, and is benched the next day. I know there are other examples of odd lineup decisions when guys are playing well and getting benched or being trotted out there even when they are struggling mightily. I’ve seen people mention it in the past as keeping everybody involved and not getting rusty. I view it a different way as having your guys get rusty by taking them out of their groove and getting them out of their “flow” when they are playing well or getting hot.

 

I really don’t think Counsell is the guy to lead us to our first World Series win. I haven’t been able to watch many games recently, but if the guys are flat and uninterested like I’ve read in some recent in game threads, when they are in the middle of a playoff race, then something else could be going on. Even if there was something going on in the clubhouse, you will rarely if ever hear players bash a manager while he is still with the team. I know we haven’t heard anything negative about Counsell since he’s been there, but at some point down the road when he isn’t the manager, I wonder if any players will say anything. I don’t think the lack of players talking publicly in a negative way right now means there isn’t something going on.

 

Looking forward to seeing what other people see and feel in regards to Counsell, his decision making, and what he brings or doesn’t bring to the table.

 

So, you think there's something there even though there isn't any evidence of it.

 

You say players can't play well if they get yanked around, right after complaining that he isn't using the bullpen properly (which by your own words) would include yanking guys around.

 

You know who he didn't yank around all season? Cain, Arcia and Shaw. They all have been terrible. He didn't yank around Burnes or Peralta going into the season, and they both completely bombed.

 

In Craig I trust.

[bill hAll Star]

Counsell has excellent bullpen management and isn't an old school tough guy like Clint Hurdle. I'm still a fan.

 

The original post is literally all fan cliches that are generally debunked or nowhere near provable. If Thames hits 4 homers in 2 days against righties, he's on the bench against Clayton Kershaw. Sorry.

[3and2Fastball]

I like Counsell.

 

He'd look more like a top flight manager if he had an elite pitching staff.

 

Counsell seems like a great mix between old school & new school. He can relate to the players as well as the front office. In a lot of ways I think Counsell is the perfect manager for the Brewers. He just needs more talent to manage.

 

Any reason to fire Counsell, to me, would be stuff that fans aren't privy to. For instance, if Counsell was 99% of the reason that Derek Johnson left, or if he refused to do what the front office told him to do etc etc

[xisxisxis]

You know who he didn't yank around all season? Cain, Arcia and Shaw. They all have been terrible. He didn't yank around Burnes or Peralta going into the season, and they both completely bombed.

 

This is one of the two issues I have with Counsell. His uber slow response to crapitude. From last years Sogard fascination to his penciling in Shaw and Jesus for most of the first half, when everyone in the universe could see they didn't have it. As an ex-player he's way to slow adjusting to poor performances by players and way too fond of players like he was...

 

The other issue is frickin batting Yelich #2. He's one of the best players in baseball and he has nobody in front of him to get on.... Jesus frickin C... We've wasted an MVP and near MVP season with our best player hitting with the bases empty so often! move your R/L down 1 and put him in the 3 hole with 2 high OBP guys in front. If he really is a "new" generation manager then why is he Mike Scioscia Jr? At least the Angels play in the AL and a real batter hits #9... batting Yelich #2 doesn't maximize the Brewers chances... But, but if he bats #3 then I need a lefthander leading off and a righthander at #2, and I really should put Grandal in, but he's a switch hitter and Cain is a righthander, but he has to leadoff.... beep... blue screen... beep, restart...

[liveforoctober]

We can have the conversation but it is a short one. Counsell has been a great pick.

 

Re: the lineup shuffling, it is well known the Counsell talks to players about their scheduled off days. Braun is probably the best example, he knows going into weeks when he is getting days off, all things equal. This is a known strategy with Counsell.

[MrTPlush]

I haven’t been able to watch many games recently, but if the guys are flat and uninterested like I’ve read in some recent in game threads, when they are in the middle of a playoff race, then something else could be going on.

 

So you are listening to IGT hot takes....sir/mam, please do not go down that dark scary path.

[dlk9s]

Oh no, now that the team doesn't look awesome, Counsell is suddenly terrible.

 

He's fine.

[RollieTime]

I think it is time to have a discussion on Counsell and if he is the right guy for the Brewers.

 

I was never a fan of the hiring of Counsell to become the manager from day 1, but I was open to seeing what he does in his first shot at managing.

 

I made my decision a couple years ago that I didn’t think he is the right guy for the job. I don’t like the way he handles the bullpen. Too many times where it is obvious to everybody (except Counsell) who should be brought in, but he will go with somebody that is struggling instead. His in game managing is questionable at best.

 

Why? Who's better? He manages very satistically and puts his players in the best position to succeed. 1 player in 4 years has complained about the organization and how they've handled them (Tyler Cravy) Clearly he's doing something right.

 

I personally do not like how he very rarely stands up for his players during games. Brewers pitchers will get squeezed and the hitters will get rung up on terrible calls, and Counsell will shake his head in the dugout and that’s it. It could just be my opinion, but when I played and when I watch games, I have much more respect for a coach that will stick up for his guys and let the umpire know he screwed up. I don’t see this at all from Counsell. He is a fairly reserved manager, lacks outward passion for the game, and always seems bored and uninterested.

 

Throwing a tantrum like a 12 year old while trying to show up the umpire is not how you win them over.

 

And finally, the lineup tinkering game to game. I made a thread last year and was mostly met with criticism, but it’s something I still stand behind. Guys will NOT perform as well if they are constantly being yanked around. Start for one game, ride the bench for a game, pinch hit the next game, and then start the next. A lot of players find it difficult to be on the top of their game when they are given inconsistent playing time or getting a pinch hit opportunity during the game. There are a few times this year where a guy gets 3 homeruns in a 3 day span and gets benched, or someone like Braun, who recently hit two homeruns in a game, and is benched the next day. I know there are other examples of odd lineup decisions when guys are playing well and getting benched or being trotted out there even when they are struggling mightily. I’ve seen people mention it in the past as keeping everybody involved and not getting rusty. I view it a different way as having your guys get rusty by taking them out of their groove and getting them out of their “flow” when they are playing well or getting hot.

 

I really don’t think Counsell is the guy to lead us to our first World Series win. I haven’t been able to watch many games recently, but if the guys are flat and uninterested like I’ve read in some recent in game threads, when they are in the middle of a playoff race, then something else could be going on. Even if there was something going on in the clubhouse, you will rarely if ever hear players bash a manager while he is still with the team. I know we haven’t heard anything negative about Counsell since he’s been there, but at some point down the road when he isn’t the manager, I wonder if any players will say anything. I don’t think the lack of players talking publicly in a negative way right now means there isn’t something going on.

 

Looking forward to seeing what other people see and feel in regards to Counsell, his decision making, and what he brings or doesn’t bring to the table.

 

So, you think there's something there even though there isn't any evidence of it.

 

You say players can't play well if they get yanked around, right after complaining that he isn't using the bullpen properly (which by your own words) would include yanking guys around.

 

You know who he didn't yank around all season? Cain, Arcia and Shaw. They all have been terrible. He didn't yank around Burnes or Peralta going into the season, and they both completely bombed.

 

In Craig I trust.

 

I think there’s plenty of merit to hitters playing better when playing consistently compared to sporadic playing time.

 

In regards to the bullpen, no, bullpen guys aren’t being yanked around just because you use them in certain situations? I don’t even understand what you’re trying to say. If Guerra is struggling, he shouldn’t continue to be pitching in games where we have a small lead. Albers has been one of the more consistent guys this season and should be in for those later game situations. Things like that. It’s not yanking bullpen guys around at all by using them in situations that suit what they do best. Whether it’s Hader for getting strikeouts with the bases loaded or Albers coming in for a ground ball double play to maintain a one run lead.

 

Again, even before last season, I didn’t really like Counsell as manager. We almost went to the World Series that year. I’ll admit it. This isn’t just because we have been struggling recently. This is how I’ve felt for a while. But was it Counsell that led to Jeffress having a career year, Knebel becoming unhittable down the stretch, Hader striking everybody out, and having guys like Soria and Burnes in the pen at his disposal? I think most guys could handle that bullpen pretty easily. He was gifted a super pen and couldn’t really push a wrong button. What about Yelich having an MVP season, Aguilar being an All-Star, and Shaw having another great season last year? Counsell didn’t yank them around and they did well.

 

I think where you can really tell how well a manager manages is in how they handle their lineups/frequent lineup changes, and bullpen management. I personally don’t think he does either one particularly well. I know people have questioned a lot of the lineups this season, why certain guys are benched after playing well or why the lineup continues to flip day in and day out. Again, I think there’s a lot of merit in guys playing better when playing almost every day instead of trying to keep everybody “involved” and throwing multiple different players into the lineup almost daily, shuffling the batting order, and guys not knowing when they will be starting or not. You can’t measure the mindset of players, but the mindset of knowing you’re in the lineup whether you’re playing well or in a 2-18 stretch is big for players. I think it’s possible that some of the guys on the roster might think they don’t have the confidence of the manager, which could lead to poor results and some type of disconnect. Doesn’t mean the players aren’t trying though.

[clancyphile]

I like Counsell.

 

He'd look more like a top flight manager if he had an elite pitching staff.

 

Counsell seems like a great mix between old school & new school. He can relate to the players as well as the front office. In a lot of ways I think Counsell is the perfect manager for the Brewers. He just needs more talent to manage.

 

Any reason to fire Counsell, to me, would be stuff that fans aren't privy to. For instance, if Counsell was 99% of the reason that Derek Johnson left, or if he refused to do what the front office told him to do etc etc

 

The Brewers in 2018 were great - a game away from the World Series. A lucky drop or two... no injury to Suter.

 

This team had talent, but bad luck injury-wise, and then some serious slumps - and keeping gio and Miley would have been relatively cheap and the depth would have made this a less frustrating season. But they still can sneak into the playoffs.

 

Counsell's biggest problem was a lack of real depth, and that is more on Stearns who made some understandable calls that didn't work out.

 

Really, just bad luck.

[liveforoctober]

I think where you can really tell how well a manager manages is in how they handle their lineups/frequent lineup changes, and bullpen management. I personally don’t think he does either one particularly well. I know people have questioned a lot of the lineups this season, why certain guys are benched after playing well or why the lineup continues to flip day in and day out. Again, I think there’s a lot of merit in guys playing better when playing almost every day instead of trying to keep everybody “involved” and throwing multiple different players into the lineup almost daily, shuffling the batting order, and guys not knowing when they will be starting or not. You can’t measure the mindset of players, but the mindset of knowing you’re in the lineup whether you’re playing well or in a 2-18 stretch is big for players. I think it’s possible that some of the guys on the roster might think they don’t have the confidence of the manager, which could lead to poor results and some type of disconnect. Doesn’t mean the players aren’t trying though.

 

You need to be more specific on what you are saying man. So he should stick with Shaw and get him consistent at bats? Aguilar? Cain? Should he play Cain over Grisham right now? Should he give Perez consistent at bats over Arcia or vice versa?

 

If he plays guys that are struggling he gets yelled at. If he sits them he is now getting yelled at.

[Pugger]

I was never a fan of his hire either, mainly because he had zero coaching experience. He does leave guys out on the mound hoping they can find the strike zone. Why he rarely has more than one guy get ready in the bullpen is a mystery to me. By the time it is evident the pitcher he brought in just doesn't have it that night he has to get another guy up and throwing and by then it is often too late.

 

I don't understand why he had Yelich hit second either. Your best hitter should be batting after guys who get on base so he can drive in runs.

 

I do understand this team isn't hitting like it did last year and the bullpen isn't as good as last year's either. Hader struggling has been an issue for sure. Losing Woodruff, Chacin and Anderson hasn't helped either along with Davies and Gio for stretches. A manager can only do with what he has. I suppose we could give Counsell one more year even if things continue to go south but not 2 if we don't see improvement next year.

[markedman5]

Oh no, now that the team doesn't look awesome, Counsell is suddenly terrible.

 

He's fine.

 

Yep........its not the X's and the O's.......its the Jimmy's and the Joe's.......

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I was never a fan of his hire either, mainly because he had zero coaching experience. He does leave guys out on the mound hoping they can find the strike zone. Why he rarely has more than one guy get ready in the bullpen is a mystery to me. By the time it is evident the pitcher he brought in just doesn't have it that night he has to get another guy up and throwing and by then it is often too late.

 

I don't understand why he had Yelich hit second either. Your best hitter should be batting after guys who get on base so he can drive in runs.

 

I do understand this team isn't hitting like it did last year and the bullpen isn't as good as last year's either. Hader struggling has been an issue for sure. Losing Woodruff, Chacin and Anderson hasn't helped either along with Davies and Gio for stretches. A manager can only do with what he has. I suppose we could give Counsell one more year even if things continue to go south but not 2 if we don't see improvement next year.

 

Not much of a mystery. The way they use the pen you can't have multiple guys up and warming all the time. Many basically have to pitch if they get stretched out.

[FVBrewerFan]

Yea, I have no idea who you believe is being "yanked around." You do understand Braun has quite a few planned days off throughout the year? And Thames/Aguilar were in a platoon? Can't think of anyone else you could even be referring to. I hope you don't think guys just show up to the park and see they're not in the lineup. This "yanking guys around" thing is pretty baffling to me.

 

Bullpen, I won't bother debating because every manager in the history of the game has had people questioning bullpen use. You say the decisions last year were easy, and they were. This year is the opposite, it's like the russian roulette of crap. Anyhow, this is a debate that can't be won. Agree to disagree.

 

The last part about CC not caring, the players not caring, etc. is really foolish. I'm sorry, but it really is shear foolishness.

[bill hAll Star]

You know who he didn't yank around all season? Cain, Arcia and Shaw. They all have been terrible. He didn't yank around Burnes or Peralta going into the season, and they both completely bombed.

 

This is one of the two issues I have with Counsell. His uber slow response to crapitude. From last years Sogard fascination to his penciling in Shaw and Jesus for most of the first half, when everyone in the universe could see they didn't have it. As an ex-player he's way to slow adjusting to poor performances by players and way too fond of players like he was...

 

The other issue is frickin batting Yelich #2. He's one of the best players in baseball and he has nobody in front of him to get on.... Jesus frickin C... We've wasted an MVP and near MVP season with our best player hitting with the bases empty so often! move your R/L down 1 and put him in the 3 hole with 2 high OBP guys in front. If he really is a "new" generation manager then why is he Mike Scioscia Jr? At least the Angels play in the AL and a real batter hits #9... batting Yelich #2 doesn't maximize the Brewers chances... But, but if he bats #3 then I need a lefthander leading off and a righthander at #2, and I really should put Grandal in, but he's a switch hitter and Cain is a righthander, but he has to leadoff.... beep... blue screen... beep, restart...

 

For paragraph one - for every Shaw there is an Aguilar (he got it going after struggling) or better yet, an Anderson or Chacin (2018) or Knebel who people wanted to fire to the sun because they were bad for a month or two. Shaw/Hiura seemed to have some financial stuff behind it but might be the one glaring thing...but people don't think about all of the times that a good player was stuck with and returned to form.

 

I like the inclusion of Cain in this because apparently we've been playing him too much. There's a group of fans that have been banging the drum of, "Grisham is hot! Play him even against lefties!" That was 2 weeks ago when he had a solid slash line. Grisham has been shielded from lefties and now has put up a far worse line than Cain on the season. This is because if you play good hitter often, he will likely be better than a "hot" bad hitter over time. Not that Grisham is a bad hitter but I don't think he's a stud just yet.

 

As for the batting order thing - I think there are studies that say your best hitter should hit #2. I don't have the data for you right now but I trust that they've got some data behind that.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Yes, of course Counsell was and continues to be the right choice. Considering everything that has gone wrong this year, the fact that Counsell still has this team above .500 and in the playoff race is almost astounding. yeah, he's made mistakes, but it's moreso that it seems like a lot of time when he's taken a lower-probability chance, it has blown up in his face. Last year he seemed to have a lucky horseshoe at times when making moves, so this year is simply the law of averages kind of working itself out. Counsell will be fine in the long run, and I fulling expect him to have the 2020 team in playoff contention.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm still on board the Counsell train, but I don't think he deserves much credit for this season. It's a watered down NL and Christian Yelich. He's had jack to work with and really hasn't done anything all that impressive. He certainly hasn't had the magic touch he seemed to last year.

[bill hAll Star]

I'm still on board the Counsell train, but I don't think he deserves much credit for this season. It's a watered down NL and Christian Yelich. He's had jack to work with and really hasn't done anything all that impressive. He certainly hasn't had the magic touch he seemed to last year.

 

Unless one believes that a manager can motivate his team to have otherwise bad players play well enough to win a bunch of games, what else is he supposed to do? They have a largely negative run-differential and still have a winning record. That generally means that almost every victory has been squeezed out.

[danzig6767]

 

Bullpen, I won't bother debating because every manager in the history of the game has had people questioning bullpen use.

Yep

 

Read pretty much any baseball team forum, regardless if the team is good or bad, and lots of fans on that forum think the manager is a moron when it comes to bullpen usage, and instead those fans would be so much better at using the pen. It's ridiculous, especially when that bullpen sucks overall like this Brewers pen does.

 

Those fans will complain like in the game thread yesterday that Guerra was brought in with the bases loaded instead of Albers, yet are quiet when Guerra should have been out of that inning with only one run scored and Albers came in the next inning and allowed four runs in 2/3 of an inning.

 

Stuff like this and countless others are common for anyone sitting behind a computer screen when your would be decisions of any kind aren't scrutinized like a real manager's are on a daily basis. So much easier to feel smarter when numerous decisions which you'd make that backfired, there isn't a forum full of fans in place to call you an idiot.

[Daubs]

I don't understand why he had Yelich hit second either. Your best hitter should be batting after guys who get on base so he can drive in runs.

 

There's been a lot of analysis that your best hitter should be batting second. In fact - the Angels are currently batting Mike Trout in that slot.

[tmwiese55]

I think 2nd is the best spot as well. Get a chance to have someone in front of him get on. But if that doesn't happen, and he gets on himself then you have your best hitters behind him to drive him in (rather than already having one of your best out of the way. Plus, of course the simple math of getting more ABs throughout the season

[benji]

It has to do with more at bats combined with people on base.

 

 

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