Where do we go from here?

[DuWayne Steurer]

All-in doesn't always mean spending every available dollar that you have. There are a lot of pre-arby players that are every bit as good, or better than pricey free agent veterans.

 

All-in also means for many teams that you're mortgaging your future, and I don't want to see the brewers do that. A so-so shot at a maybe world series in one year to sacrifice multiple attempts down the road doesn't make sense.

[MNBrew]

Stearns went after 'em all, reportedly, to at least some degree, and several of them very aggressively. Thankfully he didn't heinously overpay or make some other version of a seemingly bad deal.

 

Trades, like FA signings, take a willingness by both parties to make a deal work.

 

I don't know if it was ever close to happening, but I'd have taken Zack Greinke for most of the cost of his contract (thus at least somewhat lessening the needed return). He may not have made all the difference the '19 Brewers may end up needing, but his track record, ability, and performance would be a nice help this year & beyond, age notwithstanding.

 

 

I'd rather see them go after Cole. They're in a bit of a unique situation with Yelich cheap, Hiura, young pitching that's up in the air. Go out and splurge once on the marquee FA pitcher and then you have to hope some other things can fall in place.

 

I still believe in Corbin Burnes. He's too talented to not get it going, Woodruff is a stud. Lots of power arms coming up to put in the pen. But you'd have to sign Cole knowing it's going to severely hamper your ability to make other moves in the future and that you'll be paying for him for at least a couple years when he's not that good anymore. Or at least expect it. If he had a CC type run, as in when the Yankees signed CC, how good he was before he started falling apart, I'd take that.

 

Teams haven't been paying 30 million over 6-7 years for starters since..I don't know, whenever the D-backs signed Grienke. Even the Yankees are being more fiscally responsible. So while I'd imagine he ends up in NY, if there's one guy who's worth it, it's him. I would definitely not spend on Strausburg or pay Ryu a bunch of money.

 

 

Otherwise, a pitcher like Hamels on a shorter deal, or Odorizzi are possible options.

If it were between Cole & Greinke, I'd take Cole, too. I was referring to this past trade deadline. Greinke's not a FA this winter unless he's got some sort of opt-out clause (I believe he's got at least 2 years otherwise beyond '19), but he's also a guy who's consistently shown zero interest in the biggest of markets, esp. NY.

[clancyphile]

The owner inherited Doug Melvin when he bought the team in 2004 and kept Melvin on board until 2015. The owner has been a little more quick with the managerial hook, going through 5 managers since 2008 with only the Marlins and Nationals having gone through more managers over the same timer period. So anyone asking for a change in the front office is going to be disappointed, in the clubhouse Counsell is safe for now, but his seat could start getting warm soon.

 

The payroll will come down in 2020, and the team will likely have to sink or swim with Woodruff, Houser, Burnes, Peralta. Succinctly stated the Brewers are never going to be consistent contenders without being able to develop their own quality starting pitching. With top starting pitchers commanding upwards of 30 million dollars a year over multiple years, the Brewers are never going to sign an elite starting pitcher as a free agent. Therefore, Houser, Burnes and Peralta are going to be given every opportunity to prove they are quality big league starting pitchers.

 

Unless Attanasio/Stearns decide to re-build/re-tool, no way payroll goes down. This team will have ~ 19 million extra revenue, so this year’s 127 with everything else being equal could be 146. I don’t think there going to re-tool, so there it is.

 

This does make things interesting.

 

Some can go to payroll, say $9 million. Use the other $10 million for better farm system facilities (a hitting lab, sabremetric people, etc.).

 

But decline the options of Jeffress and Anderson, and let Chacin walk, and now you get an extra $20.8 million in payroll. Retain everyone else.

 

If Thames passes on his $7.5 million player option (per BaseballReference.com - https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thameer01.shtml), that goes up to $28.3 million.

 

Could make for a couple of interesting options.

 

Give Miley a two-year deal for Anderson's money (two years, $18 million). Then go for Gregorious on a three-year $60 million deal.

[FVBrewerFan]

I’d like to see a new GM, but I realize it’s not happening any time soon. I’m willing to give Stearns a mulligan, but imo, he needs to go all in next year or re-tool, no in between, one or the other.

 

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you, that you've changed your position again in less than a day. Real question is, what if he goes "all in" but doesn't extend Hiura 8 years? Does he still have to go? Asking for a friend.

[Brew crew 92]

I’d like to see a new GM, but I realize it’s not happening any time soon. I’m willing to give Stearns a mulligan, but imo, he needs to go all in next year or re-tool, no in between, one or the other.

 

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you, that you've changed your position again in less than a day. Real question is, what if he goes "all in" but doesn't extend Hiura 8 years? Does he still have to go? Asking for a friend.

 

Not really, just resigned to the fact he’s not leaving anytime soon. Not really sure why he wouldn’t extend Hiura, unless Hiura doesn’t want to. I don’t know, maybe you can come up with a good reason not to extend a 70+ hit tool player?

[Jopal78]

I’d like to see a new GM, but I realize it’s not happening any time soon. I’m willing to give Stearns a mulligan, but imo, he needs to go all in next year or re-tool, no in between, one or the other.

 

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you, that you've changed your position again in less than a day. Real question is, what if he goes "all in" but doesn't extend Hiura 8 years? Does he still have to go? Asking for a friend.

 

Not really, just resigned to the fact he’s not leaving anytime soon. Not really sure why he wouldn’t extend Hiura, unless Hiura doesn’t want to. I don’t know, maybe you can come up with a good reason not to extend a 70+ hit tool player?

 

Here’s one: he re-injures his throwing elbow misses an entire years worth of games and his already poor defense becomes untenable for a National League team.

 

Stearns was excellent at getting the Brewers competitive again in a short period of time. The challenge now is keeping them competitive when the team hasn’t drafted particularly well the last decade, and has played ok baseball so they’re not picking 5th over all annually

[adambr2]

I’d like to see a new GM, but I realize it’s not happening any time soon. I’m willing to give Stearns a mulligan, but imo, he needs to go all in next year or re-tool, no in between, one or the other.

 

I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you, that you've changed your position again in less than a day. Real question is, what if he goes "all in" but doesn't extend Hiura 8 years? Does he still have to go? Asking for a friend.

 

Not really, just resigned to the fact he’s not leaving anytime soon. Not really sure why he wouldn’t extend Hiura, unless Hiura doesn’t want to. I don’t know, maybe you can come up with a good reason not to extend a 70+ hit tool player?

 

Well, and I say this as someone who is a Hiura fan and wouldn't mind extending him:

 

1) Maybe they are concerned about his glove at 2nd

2) Maybe they are waiting to see if the DH will be implemented in the NL

3) Maybe they don't see the buying of two additional years as worth the risk/reward of guaranteeing that money now when they are currently protected against injury or underperformance

4) Maybe they don't want to distract Hiura and his camp with extension talks during the season

5) Maybe they think he's a better fit for an AL team and plan to shop him in the offseason

 

I don't know. Is that enough reasons? I just cannot reconcile myself to the idea that 6 months ago, you were the loudest singer of praises of David Stearns and told anyone who would listen about the powerhouse of a 40 man roster that he built and that he had earned our trust and today, literally half a year later, after a season that has been a disappointment at 65-62, but not a disaster, you want the man replaced.

 

Would you want someone such as yourself, who wants massive change at the slightest hint of a bump in the road, in charge of an MLB organization?

[Brew crew 92]

No, I’m too impulsive to lead a franchise. But that doesn’t preclude me from making good decisions based on what I see. And I saw a shocking amount of mistakes by Stearns, pretty sure you did too, so I would imagine I’m not the only one that went from enamered to huh, in one seasons time.

 

My patience for ineptitude with this team isn’t what it used to be. Not sure any of us fans back in 82 even thought it possible that we could go the rest of our life without getting back.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

This is almost too good

 

No, I’m too impulsive to lead a franchise. But that doesn’t preclude me from making good decisions based on what I see.

[Brew crew 92]

This is almost too good

 

No, I’m too impulsive to lead a franchise. But that doesn’t preclude me from making good decisions based on what I see.

 

Ok, preclude me from OCCASIONALLY making good decisions based on what I see. Fixed it for ya.

[Pugger]

I hope they don't go into any offseason thinking they have to spend "X" amount of dollars to be competitive. Continue to make smart deals when they can be had and find bargains as well. Build as much depth on the 40-man roster as they can. On top of this, keep trying to improve on draft and develop because even if some of those players never wear Brewers uniforms, they can be used as currency to find pieces to keep us competitive or to push us over the top in a year in which it looks like we can win the whole thing. While going out and trying to track down an "ace" for $30+ million a year, I just don't believe that is a good financial plan for the Brewers.

 

You get what you pay for.

If the architect is the right man for the job, and if there’s not a re-build undertaken, and the team in 2020 is trying to be the best team possible, why wouldn’t the team spend as much as their budget allows?

 

Because this isn't the Price is Right, and you don't get a prize for coming as close to a number as you can. The fit and need has to be right first and foremost. They last thing I want them to do is go out and spend money just to spend it. That's losing front office baseball strategy every time.

 

But sometimes you get what you pay for. If we want to get an ace FA he isn't gonna come cheap.

[Pugger]

Wasn't he holding up Tampa as a model for what you can do with $70 million while campaigning for David Stearns to be fired?

 

They are quite the model aren’t they? 60-80 million payroll, ~.500 most years, 90 wins last year. To win the games they do with a 70 payroll is really astounding isn’t it?

 

When you draft well and regularly draft high, it makes it possible to stack your team with young pre-arby talent. The Rays do some innovative things, but they also largely grow from within, and deal off pieces when they get pricey. That tends to catch up to teams that don't continue to restock young minors talent.

 

Its a minor miracle they can do what they do seeing they can't get fans to fill that stadium except when they play Boston or the Yankees.

[tmwiese55]

Wasn't he holding up Tampa as a model for what you can do with $70 million while campaigning for David Stearns to be fired?

 

They are quite the model aren’t they? 60-80 million payroll, ~.500 most years, 90 wins last year. To win the games they do with a 70 payroll is really astounding isn’t it?

 

When you draft well and regularly draft high, it makes it possible to stack your team with young pre-arby talent. The Rays do some innovative things, but they also largely grow from within, and deal off pieces when they get pricey. That tends to catch up to teams that don't continue to restock young minors talent.

 

Just like the 4 year window I pointed out earlier in which they dropped off big time and won 68 games one year. According to this person, they would've fired all their management one of those years and the current geniuses running the team would be working elsewhere instead. Note, and I'm not saying what they're doing is wrong. It's what they have to do in their situation and they're doing an amazing job. I'd love to poach guys from that org. It's just odd because exactly what one would say about TB doing on a small budget would for sure be said about MKE/Stearns by any unbiased observer in regards to performance/budget. Plus, didn't have the aid of years of top picks leading up to it.

 

For budget, a few people nailed it. You don't spend it just to spend it. Say you have 140 mil possible to spend in a year, but the guy or two you'd sign to get you there at 15ish mil would require 5-6 year commitments (thus ruining future budgets plus just massive amount of risk overall) well then it would be stupid to do it. So, a smart way to really maximize your budget use and flexibility, while lowering risk (since we're the smallest market) would be to sign good players on low risk one year deals if you find great opportunities. Oh wait, our idiot GM did exactly that.

 

Now, lets say they had another 15 mil in this year's budget if absolutely needed for a good signing, deadline deal to go for it etc. Would it have been smart spend 15 Mil per year for 5 years to get Kimbrel? I would strongly argue No because it's almost for sure going to be a bad contract and would kill future years while who knows how he'd even do this year, which is holding true so far. I remember someone on here was absolutely adamant about signing Kimbrel and how dumb it was to not, I'd have a good guess who it was. 1-2 years short, smart, low risk, sure spend the money but stupid long term contract just to spend to hit a budget is dumb. Stearns did this exactly right with Moose/Grandal.

[Boomer5]

Stearns did such a bad job with the Farm that it’s tough to see what we can do next year short of hope we get bounce back years and better health.

[pacopete4]

Stearns did such a bad job with the Farm that it’s tough to see what we can do next year short of hope we get bounce back years and better health.

 

What did he do so terrible with our farm? Turned a group of them into Yelich and we have had other guys come up and look like real contributors.

[MrTPlush]

David Stearns has done a decent job with the farm system. His drafts don't look horrendous and he really hasn't traded much from it. Not sure where there is to complain. I think he and his staff have done a pretty terrible job after the first few rounds of the draft, but it is hard to rate guys picked after the first few rounds for years.

[Brew crew 92]

I was wrong on Kimbrel. And I agree with most of your take, except for, play it safe because we’re the smallest market. One persons risky move is another persons innovative move. And with our owner, and the apparent fact of a max payroll being below league average for the foreseeable future, risk-averse is actually lowering our odds of a near future title. Dick Williams is my example. Blasted by most at last offseason trade with the dodgers, and this past trade deadline’s Trammell Puig + swap for Bauer. I would argue they now to be the early favorites to win the central next year, if for no other reason than now having 3 #1’s in their rotation with virtually everyone coming back and 50+ million to spend.

 

Not really what I would term risk averse, innovative and forward thinking, what do you think?

[tmwiese55]

I liked all those moves Cincy made. For Bauer, what are we gonna do there? Did you see what it cost and what Cle got back? We'd have had to give Hiura, Grisham, maybe one MLB player like Thames, pitching prospect like Burnes, and maybe more to match that deal for 1.5 years of Bauer. Parlay that LAD trade that led to this trade though and Cincy killed it imo.

 

That said, doesn't it seem very similar to what we pulled off to steal Yelich? That's exactly what you want and he did it and nailed it.

 

Overall though if you don't want to support and follow a team that can't afford to take ridiculous financial risks then frankly you should just follow another team as it's not changing anytime soon. We can cross our fingers for a real cap similar to NFL but it's just not happening anytime soon.

[Brew crew 92]

I liked all those moves Cincy made. For Bauer, what are we gonna do there? Did you see what it cost and what Cle got back? We'd have had to give Hiura, Grisham, maybe one MLB player like Thames, pitching prospect like Burnes, and maybe more to match that deal for 1.5 years of Bauer. Parlay that LAD trade that led to this trade though and Cincy killed it imo.

 

That said, doesn't it seem very similar to what we pulled off to steal Yelich? That's exactly what you want and he did it and nailed it.

 

Overall though if you don't want to support and follow a team that can't afford to take ridiculous financial risks then frankly you should just follow another team as it's not changing anytime soon. We can cross our fingers for a real cap similar to NFL but it's just not happening anytime soon.

 

Reds only gave up the rental Puig, and Trammell, universally regarded as a top prospect that’s having a bad statistical year, the prospects Cleveland got came from the Padres.

 

Not sure why your using ridiculous financial risk to describe risk averse, but I get it, can’t be stupid about it, and I don’t believe Stearns to be stupid.

 

I do like his draft Philosophy, his investment overseas, especially Latin America, His Advanced bio mechanical center in Maryvale, and his scouting system. So there’s certainly things that I see from Stearns that could be viewed as forward thinking. But as I’ve said already, some of the mistakes with being too left handed and the decisions regarding the roster all year has given me doubt.

[tmwiese55]

Yes, but we can't just pull those Padres things out of thin air. We would've had to trump that whole package. Good luck on that. Our only way to get our hands on the Padres aspects of it we'd have had to use Keston.

[Brew crew 92]

Yes, but we can't just pull those Padres things out of thin air. We would've had to trump that whole package. Good luck on that. Our only way to get our hands on the Padres aspects of it we'd have had to use Keston.

 

Maybe, I would argue Hiura would be recognized as a better prospect by every mlb team than Trammell, especially at the time of the trade. I’d have done Turang and Ashby or something comparable to secure Bauer for this August/September and 2020. And I’d trade Cain to even up the salary for next year and would have a legitimate #1 and strong #2 to compete for a title with Yelich next year. And still have ~ 25-40 million to plug holes at SS 3B CF.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I do like his draft Philosophy, his investment overseas, especially Latin America, His Advanced bio mechanical center in Maryvale, and his scouting system. So there’s certainly things that I see from Stearns that could be viewed as forward thinking.

 

Every single one of those things cost the millions of dollars that you have bemoaned the organization for all year for not sinking into the player payroll. So either you are seeing the light that there is more to a successful organization than spending every available dollar on the on-field product in a given year, or you are backtracking significantly.

[pacopete4]

Alert: Spin-move coming!

[tmwiese55]

Yes, but we can't just pull those Padres things out of thin air. We would've had to trump that whole package. Good luck on that. Our only way to get our hands on the Padres aspects of it we'd have had to use Keston.

 

Maybe, I would argue Hiura would be recognized as a better prospect by every mlb team than Trammell, especially at the time of the trade. I’d have done Turang and Ashby or something comparable to secure Bauer for this August/September and 2020. And I’d trade Cain to even up the salary for next year and would have a legitimate #1 and strong #2 to compete for a title with Yelich next year. And still have ~ 25-40 million to plug holes at SS 3B CF.

 

Ahh if only reality was a video game.

[Brew crew 92]

I do like his draft Philosophy, his investment overseas, especially Latin America, His Advanced bio mechanical center in Maryvale, and his scouting system. So there’s certainly things that I see from Stearns that could be viewed as forward thinking.

 

Every single one of those things cost the millions of dollars that you have bemoaned the organization for all year for not sinking into the player payroll. So either you are seeing the light that there is more to a successful organization than spending every available dollar on the on-field product in a given year, or you are backtracking significantly.

 

That’s money already invested from 15-15-17 low payroll/Tremendous profit years, that attanasio referred to when he made his comments regarding putting money aside in rebuild years to be used for payroll in serious contention years.

 

I realize now that savings was invested in non payroll ways, and I’m ok with that, but next re-build the potential hundred million or more in payroll savings should be invested in payroll when as Mark A has already said it would be.