2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread

[SeaBass]

Usually the taunting fouls that happen on touchdowns occur after the touchdown has been scored and that's why the penalties are assessed on PATs or kickoffs. I think in Jones' instance it would have negated the touchdown because it happened prior to the actual touchdown. Premise being the play immediately ends once the ball crosses the goal line.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Lol. Coach is wrong though. That one would go on the kickoff

 

I thought that they *can* bring back a touchdown if taunting occurs before the endzone. Almost never happens but l thought I remember examples of it occurring. I'll have to try to look that up.

 

I just looked. Apparently it was discussed in 2013, but I can't find anything saying it was implemented. I know they changed the rule in college in 2012 saying that a TD could be brought back if the scoring team taunted before the score.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm 99% certain that's not an NFL rule. Guys have been flagged (Lynch crotch grab) before scoring and it has always been enforced on the kickoff/fined later. I still remember Reggie Bush pointing at Urlacher in the NFCCG though I don't believe then flagged him on that. I can't recall ever seeing a TD called back due to taunting in the NFL. Even blatant unsportsmanlike gets enforced on the kickoff.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I'm 99% certain that's not an NFL rule. Guys have been flagged (Lynch crotch grab) before scoring and it has always been enforced on the kickoff/fined later. I still remember Reggie Bush pointing at Urlacher in the NFCCG though I don't believe then flagged him on that. I can't recall ever seeing a TD called back due to taunting in the NFL. Even blatant unsportsmanlike gets enforced on the kickoff.

 

That may be the case. It is such an obscure rule that hardly ever comes up. Hard to blame Lafleur for not knowing it. Also, telling Jones he could lose his TD has a little more of a fear factor than being assessed 15 yards on the extra point or kickoff.

[homer]

It doesn't matter what the rule actually is. It matters that the player THINKS the rule can take away the TD.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think Lafleur knew, lol. The fine and touchdown resonated more.

[KeithStone53151]

It doesn't matter what the rule actually is. It matters that the player THINKS the rule can take away the TD.

 

This was my immediate thought too. I doubt Jones is going to buckle down on the rule book and figure that out if he didn't know already. Regardless, the flag/fine are legit enough.

[SeaBass]

This is the best I could find.

https://operations.nfl.com/media/3831/2019-playing-rules.pdf

 

Taunting falls under Rule 12, Section 2©:

Penalty: (for (a) through (h)): Loss of 15 yards from the succeeding spot or whatever spot the Referee, after consulting with the crew, deems equitable.

 

So if a touchdown is scored the spot is considered beyond the goal line. HOWEVER...

 

Rule 14, Section 2, Article 2© for a Foul Beyond a Goal Line:

When the spot of enforcement for a foul by the offense is behind the defensive goal line, a distance penalty is enforced from the goal line.

 

So wouldn't this mean the touchdown would be taken off the board?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The fact that looking for the rule only brings up several articles from 2013 about following the NCAA rule of wiping out the touchdown, and a bunch of people saying it would be stupid, makes me think it's not a rule. There would at least be a new article about a fairly significant change like that.

 

The way they write those rules in ye olde english is confusing to me, but I don't think that example applies here. To me that just reads as penalty in the endzone, ex. OPI, being enforced as 10 yards from the goal line, etc. But IDK.

[SeaBass]

There's a lot in there, it's hard to decipher. You need to jump around to different aspects of the rules to try to make sense of it. I can't be sure either way.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

To me this is the dealbreaker:

 

ARTICLE 1. TYPES OF FOULS

A Foul is any infraction of a playing rule for which a penalty is prescribed.

 

A Live Ball Foul is a foul that occurs during the period after the snap until the ball is dead.

A Dead Ball Foul is a foul that occurs in the continuing action after a down ends, or a taunting foul that occurs at any time.

 

To me, that means a taunting foul is automatically classified as dead ball, even if during the play.

[HiAndTight]

Chandon Sullivan is looking like he could be a 2019 Sam Shields-type acquisition. Comes out of nowhere and completely changes the kinds of defenses they can run. Packers don't win the Super Bowl without Shields, just a huge part of what Capers was able to call that season.

 

 

The Packers very possibly don't make it out of the first round without Shields and Philly may have made a run that year. It's hard to articulate just how important a CB like that is. That's really when the Packers defense went from below average to terrible when he was lost early that year.

 

Sullivan has that length to play press and play the ball. I thought Tony Brown would be the unsung CB who came out of nowhere, but maybe it'll be Sullivan.

[HiAndTight]

To me this is the dealbreaker:

 

ARTICLE 1. TYPES OF FOULS

A Foul is any infraction of a playing rule for which a penalty is prescribed.

 

A Live Ball Foul is a foul that occurs during the period after the snap until the ball is dead.

A Dead Ball Foul is a foul that occurs in the continuing action after a down ends, or a taunting foul that occurs at any time.

 

To me, that means a taunting foul is automatically classified as dead ball, even if during the play.

 

 

I'm fairly certain that he would have gotten flagged, then they would have called back the TD and the penalty would have been enforced from the spot of the foul(what, 3 yard line) and it woulda been a 1st and 18 or whatever. Like a holding call downfield.

 

I can't say that with certainty and I can't actually remember the game, but I thought there was a Bengals game when Adams Jones was called for taunting and it took Pick-6 off the board and instead of scoring, it was 1st and 25.

 

I could be wrong, the rule could be different because that was a while ago now and from just reading what you wrote, it does appear as though it's a dead ball foul. So maybe my memory is wrong. But just logically, if they're calling you for an unsportsmanlike penalty DURING the play, it seems illogical that the offending team could still benefit from it.

 

 

Seriously though, at the time, it looked like he was putting his arm up anticipating a stiff arm. I didn't even see it until the replay, nor did the guys calling the game, and Aikman really doesn't miss much(like him or hate him). So I think it's smart for LaFleur to tell him not to taunt, but it's pretty unlikely he gets dinged for that.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Dean Blandino after an identical play where the wave was actually much more flagrant in 2013, via Golden Gate:

 

"A lot of people felt that the touchdown shouldn't have counted [but] a taunting foul is always treated as a dead-ball foul, meaning whatever happened during the play counts, and the foul is enforced on the next play, which would be the kickoff. In college, this action would take back the touchdown. Tate started taunting at the 25-yard line. The college rule, that's enforced at the spot of the foul, so they'd go from a touchdown to first-and-10 at the 40, which would be a gigantic penalty. The NFL rule, it's a dead-ball foul, it's enforced on the kickoff. But I'm sure that's something that the Competition Committee will look at in the offseason."

 

That rule ultimately was never changed in the NFL. I didn't think so, because again, after decades of football I can't recall a single TD being called back for taunting. Feel like I'd remember that too because it would be plastered everywhere if it happened.

[HiAndTight]

MIKE PENNEL....back in Green Bay today for a workout. Really hoping they bring him back. He's outstanding vs the run and the Packers have been moving Clark around on the line, this would free them up that much more. Pennel at 6'4 340 and built like a rectangle. Not a fat guy at all.

 

Adams and Lowry are both banged up. Other area's we're starting to get pretty thin, safety with Savage now down with a high ankle sprain. Guessing that'll be 3-4 weeks before he's back at 100 pct in a best case scenario. No clue if he plays before that or not. Raven Greene down for at least another month or so.

 

I've already said I'd like to see them bring Pennel in after the Eagles game and despite the performance vs the Cowboys, that run defense still needs to be addressed. Burks isn't a physical LB'er-though I'd imagine he'll be on the field more moving forward and is a better option to play next to Martinez than Redmond was/is.

 

 

It's gonna be interesting to see what Gute does during the season to help this team. During the TT years, it was if someone went down, they brought someone up from the PS and moved on. Normally that's a better idea, but once in a while there are in-season moves that can be made. I've repeatedly said I'd like to see PPat added after next week as well, though that's unlikely to happen.

[yourout]

Watching the Patriots and the Giants and it just baffles me how stupid head coaches can be with clock management.

Giants get the Patriots to 3 and 7 with 2 minutes 40 seconds to go in the half and call a timeout. Of course the Patriots picked up the first down and go the length of the field and score a touchdown.

In that situation under no circumstances am I calling a timeout till it's Fourth Down.

[homer]

Watching the Patriots and the Giants and it just baffles me how stupid head coaches can be with clock management.

Giants get the Patriots to 3 and 7 with 2 minutes 40 seconds to go in the half and call a timeout. Of course the Patriots picked up the first down and go the length of the field and score a touchdown.

In that situation under no circumstances am I calling a timeout till it's Fourth Down.

 

What yard line was it? I mean even without the TO, Brady has plenty of time to do whatever he needs to do. The TO was in case Jones needed it going the other way.

[wildcat83]

Literally as I’m reading the taunting discussion, Golden Tate turns around and back pedals into the end zone, lol. I was always under the impression that taking the TD off the board was only a college rule. I remember it getting a lot of press when they changed it in college.

[yourout]

Watching the Patriots and the Giants and it just baffles me how stupid head coaches can be with clock management.

Giants get the Patriots to 3 and 7 with 2 minutes 40 seconds to go in the half and call a timeout. Of course the Patriots picked up the first down and go the length of the field and score a touchdown.

In that situation under no circumstances am I calling a timeout till it's Fourth Down.

 

What yard line was it? I mean even without the TO, Brady has plenty of time to do whatever he needs to do. The TO was in case Jones needed it going the other way.

 

I think the Patriots were about their own 35-yard line.

It wasn't about the time it was about the fact you gave Brady and company a timeout to come up with a play when you didn't need to.

[yourout]

I like the Giants Ogletree. If he was a free agent next year I would certainly take a look.

[adambr2]

To me this is the dealbreaker:

 

ARTICLE 1. TYPES OF FOULS

A Foul is any infraction of a playing rule for which a penalty is prescribed.

 

A Live Ball Foul is a foul that occurs during the period after the snap until the ball is dead.

A Dead Ball Foul is a foul that occurs in the continuing action after a down ends, or a taunting foul that occurs at any time.

 

To me, that means a taunting foul is automatically classified as dead ball, even if during the play.

 

It seems you are right.

 

So...if a player in OT were to break free, flip the bird behind him, start moonwalking at the 10 and backflip into the endzone...nothing can be done? Just a freebie?

[KeithStone53151]

Watching the Patriots and the Giants and it just baffles me how stupid head coaches can be with clock management.

Giants get the Patriots to 3 and 7 with 2 minutes 40 seconds to go in the half and call a timeout. Of course the Patriots picked up the first down and go the length of the field and score a touchdown.

In that situation under no circumstances am I calling a timeout till it's Fourth Down.

 

What yard line was it? I mean even without the TO, Brady has plenty of time to do whatever he needs to do. The TO was in case Jones needed it going the other way.

 

This one isn't as blatantly stupid as some, but I tend to lean toward it being better to get the ball back and run out of time than them get the 1st and you potentially give them more time. In this case, it probably doesn't matter. That TO probably was helpful for the Patriots in calling a more effective play.

 

I've been saying for years now, every NFL coach needs a 17 year old kid that's played 10,000 games of madden standing next to them on the sideline for clock management advice. Andy Reid probably needs 2. Those 17 year old kids have literally seen every situation dozens of times and would know exactly what to do. I haven't even played THAT much madden, but I feel like I can almost always figure out how to optimally use your timeouts or when to kick a FG if you need 2 score...all that stuff...and coaches consistently bungle those decisions.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Lol, I used to wear out Madden. In high school and college I did a lot of money tournaments and traveled and what not. I reached #9 on EA's portal, but anyway, I used to think the same thing. But the game has a few things reality doesn't. For example, in the game, at least back then, the hurry-up actually slowed you down because you had to wait for all the characters to get back to the huddle. If you let the play screen come up and just pick a play, they would magically all morph into the huddle and it went faster.

 

I do think some coaches use the TOs terribly. But I've seen a bunch of NFL games where the QB tries to get up to the line and "save" a TO and ends up diddling so long and adjusting so many things that they just waste WAY too much time and the TO would have been better. There are all kind of personnel changes and stuff in the NFL too which get confusing, vs. the game where the formations are plucked off a screen and the right guys just morph into the game.

[tmwiese55]

Some examples came up in the Dallas Packers game. Pack had that lead and Dallas was chasing. Packers had the ball in the 5-3ish minute timeframe and Dallas sat on their TOs while we ran it down to a couple seconds each time so they could hold the timeouts for when they had the ball later. There is no scenario that not calling the TOs while GB has the ball and is running the full 40 that you could save more time with. Seems so common sense, but in their head it's we need the TO to run the kicker out if needed. Well,you'd have 40 more seconds to work with if you used it on D.

[homer]

Well you need it to run the kicker out, or if you get tackled in bounds, or on a sack.

 

I have wondered about the "value" of a timeout. Is it better to have 1 min and a timeout or 1:15 (or 1:30) and no timeouts? Or, if you have a 2nd and short in the 3rd quarter and the play clock is winding down, is it better to take the delay of game penalty or the timeout?

 

In the 2nd scenario my gut tells me that taking the penalty is the better option simply because the timeout is conventional wisdom which usually flies in the face of the math.

 

here is a big math-heavy article about the topic:

 

http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2014/01/the-value-of-timeout-first-approximation.html

 

And here is an article that is a little easier for the layperson to digest (think this one deals specifically with the timeout instead of delay of game penalty):

 

https://www.allmysportsteamssuck.com/2015/11/27/dont-waste-a-time-out-to-save-a-delay-of-game-in-the-2nd-half/

 

"The biggest takeaways for me are that in general, you should always call a timeout when in FG range on 2nd or 3rd down, but on first down the 5 yard deficit is easily overcome. Also, that inside of 10 yards on 2nd or 3rd down you should call a timeout in the 4th quarter for practically the entire length of the field. Certainly not what I expected."