2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread

[HiAndTight]

My point is that NFL teams try every day to make the teams better. They don't just white flag it when the franchise QB gets hurt like fans do. If they wanted Fitzpatrick last week they should probably still try and get him with or without Ben. The price is another story but if they thought he was worth it, so be it. League is full of teams that win with back ups. The Eagles won a Super Bowl with a pretty pedestrian backup. The Patriots won 11 games. It happens all the time. He doesn't need to be Favre-Rodgers or Manning-Luck for them to be successful.

 

This isn't the NBA. NFL teams really don't tank. We had Packer Nation up in arms last year when they beat the Jets or whatever and I couldn't have cared less. It's just a silly concept in football. The first round is littered with guys who suck and for the most part the same teams are picking high every year. Somehow the Patriots, Packers and Steelers have done just fine without annual top 5 picks.

 

Also, the statement about them drafting Rudolph hoping he is a good backup is totally baseless. I am sure they are hoping he is a starting prospect that either a) steps in for injury or b) could have flipped had Ben stayed healthy.

 

 

Well...are not exactly talking about the same things then. I'm not saying that when Big Ben goes down they should try to lose. I'm saying when Big Ben goes down for the year AND you're 0-2 AND Connors goes down with an injury AND you lose a couple other players for the year and you just don't look like a very good team, the value of that 1st round pick increases to the point where it no longer makes sense to make that trade.

 

 

Lets say that last year when Rodgers went down with that injury and we had question marks all over the place, lets say hypothetically we were in these trade talks and it had turned out that Rodgers was out for the year with a torn ACL as we suspected at the time. Then throw into the equation that Rodgers was another 3 years along in his career and you're HOPING that he'd come back for maybe 2 more years, but you're not sure.

 

Except for in this hypothetical, you've already lost 2 games, you've lost a couple starters already to season ending injuries, you might have lost your running back....and it's looking like you might end up with a top 5 pick. Do you still want to trade that first PLUS a couple other picks away?

 

---So I'm not saying that I'd be rooting for the Packers to lose in that situation, it's just now you're taking away your chance to get that franchise QB who could make it so you go from Manning to Luck.

 

Imagine the Colts trading away their 1st round pick when Peyton Manning went down? That'd be one of the all time worst moves ever....and that Colts team was coming off an 11-5 season and lost in the playoffs by ONE point.

 

I think you're arguing, just because you're starting QB goes down, you don't give up. And I'm with you on that. I'm arguing if your starting QB goes down....and you're as potentially bad as the Steelers are going to be this year, you don't trade away what COULD be the face of your franchise for the next 10-15 years for a safety. AND AGAIN, there's going to be a safety in this draft that's a generational talent. The kid from LSU looks like he's going to be a freak. 6'3, he can cover...

[HiAndTight]

As I mentioned in the general NFL thread, the Steelers are 100% sold on Rudolph and are gunning to still make the playoffs this year. Minkah was a win-now trade.

 

 

What do you expect them to say? "No, we don't have any confidence in our QB, we're just gonna quit?"

[HiAndTight]

Anyway, my shoe is covered in blood, the horse has long ago stopped moaning.

 

 

I saw Ramsey brought up;

 

 

I dismissed this out of hand initially, but would anyone else be in favor of this? I remember reading Bucky Brooks....who I'm not a particular fan of, but he wrote about 7 generational talents under 25 in the NFL right now. Mahomes, Vander Esch, Q. Nelson, Myles Garrett, Sanquon Barkley, Derwin James AND.....Jalen Ramsey. Here's the write up on him......

 

Jalen Ramsey, CB, Jacksonville Jaguars

Age: 24

Drafted: Round 1, fifth overall, 2016

It's not easy to find a football player with world-class athleticism and all-pro football skills, but the Jaguars have the rare find on the roster with Ramsey. The 6-1, 208-pound cover corner is a former ACC indoor and outdoor long-jump champion who once had his eye on qualifying for the U.S. Olympic Team. As a football player, Ramsey is the prototype at the position as a long, rangy corner with flawless bump-and-run technique. He snuffs out wide receivers at the line of scrimmage, exhibiting all of the qualities that are normally associated with the premier shutdown corners in the game.

 

 

Now I wouldn't be against this because of his personality...or the 1st round pick, I just don't know if it makes sense to hand this guy that'll almost certainly end up being NEAR 100 million dollar contract with 55+ million probably guaranteed.

 

I'm just guessing at the numbers here, but if Xavier Howard got a 5 years 75.6 million dollar extension with 46 guaranteed and, then I think Ramsey's gonna try to and probably will blow that number away.

 

 

I'm kinda on the fence about this. The Packers can certainly create more cap space and Jimmy Graham is going to save some, but they've got Kenny Clark coming up, the Smiths get more expensive, making this deal would mean that you've gotta replace Blake Martinez and Linsley as you'd probably not be able to spend the money to extend them...

 

But you'd add the best player in the game at one of the most important positions.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

As I mentioned in the general NFL thread, the Steelers are 100% sold on Rudolph and are gunning to still make the playoffs this year. Minkah was a win-now trade.

 

 

What do you expect them to say? "No, we don't have any confidence in our QB, we're just gonna quit?"

 

I wasn't referring to their "public voice". Thought I made that clear enough. Behind the scenes there were people in the organization starting to push Mason above Ben. The injury may help them avoid the awkwardness of a Favre / Rodgers dilemma. If Rudolph takes the reigns and runs with it the way they're expecting him to, it will make it easier for them to justify not going back to Big Ben. The fact that Pitt gave up their 2020 1st rounder should be a pretty good clue as to just how high they are on Rudolph. Actions speak louder than words.

[HiAndTight]

As I mentioned in the general NFL thread, the Steelers are 100% sold on Rudolph and are gunning to still make the playoffs this year. Minkah was a win-now trade.

 

 

What do you expect them to say? "No, we don't have any confidence in our QB, we're just gonna quit?"

 

I wasn't referring to their "public voice". Thought I made that clear enough. Behind the scenes there were people in the organization starting to push Mason above Ben. The injury may help them avoid the awkwardness of a Favre / Rodgers dilemma. If Rudolph takes the reigns and runs with it the way they're expecting him to, it will make it easier for them to justify not going back to Big Ben. The fact that Pitt gave up their 2020 1st rounder should be a pretty good clue as to just how high they are on Rudolph. Actions speak louder than words.

 

 

Yeah, I don't know where or why you thought that you "made it clear." I'm curious though how you know what's going on behind the scenes? Honest question. And if so, what happened to the Dolphins asking price dropping?

 

And the "actions speak louder than words," yeah, I don't know what to say to that. Teams do stupid things sometimes. I'll refer you to the Raiders trading Mack last year because Gruden's little ego trip when Mack wanted a new deal.

[tmwiese55]

 

 

 

Well I brought it up along the lines similar to the situation another poster mentioned how KC traded away Smith (known vet) to give the guy they had in house his chance, just like GB did. In that they have the in person knowledge that if they feel he's legit/good that they're ok with it. It's moreso than a vague draft pick that could just as easily bust like Leaf and countless other QBs. It's a bit different than just going with a draft pick you don't really know squat about. Just some pararrels in the theoretical situation.

 

Yeah, I get that. But, of course in both those situations you had a 1st rounder QB on the bench, the guy you went after to take over(especially Mahomes, Rodgers just fell to us, though TT apparently did consider trading up to get him and liked him the whole time). In the Packers situation, you were backed into a corner. Rodgers was 1 year away from being a Free Agent and you told him he'd be the starter and then Favre decided to come back.

 

The Chiefs, again, traded 3 picks, two 1sts and a 2nd I believe to trade up and get Mahomes and then let him sit for a year. So you were CHOOSING to go with your first round pick. You made that choice. That's different than going with a guy you picked a few years ago in the 3rd round due to injury.

 

And I just reject the "it's just a draft pick, you never know," argument in the NFL. No, there's so much less room for error. That's a throw away line. And didn't you just say, the Steelers have earned the benefit of the doubt? Now you're throwing out the, "it's just a draft pick, not a real player," line? No, it's the most valuable commodity in the NFL. A top 5-10 draft pick potentially for a team that may very well NEED a QB.

 

Generally I'd agree with what you said there on chances of hitting two in a row, etc. How luck it is and so forth. But, it happened for GB and it happened for Colts, could even say similarly with Bledsoe/Brady. So if you have an opportunity to pull it off it's huge for the franchise. Personally, if I was their fan I'd rather go with the top pick this year rather than Rudolph. But, I haven't worked with Rudolph every day for years, so maybe they're that confident in him. IDK. My guess would be that they think Ben is playing a couple more years, not that that they think Rudolph is start caliber.

 

Yeah, but the Colts only got Luck BECAUSE THEY HAD THEIR DRAFT PICK!! I mean, that's the perfect argument for NOT trading him. And in Green Bay, again, we had the 2nd QB picked and a 1st rounder we'd groomed to take over. Maybe Mason Rudolph is going to be that dude....but you're betting the future of your franchise on Rudolph being that good. Good enough to compete with him as your QB.

 

And I bet they do think that Big Ben is coming back. He said he was. But he'll be 39 when he comes back and there are a lot of questions on that team. And even then, how long is he coming back for? He's already said that he "will fulfill his contractual obligation." That's a very different tone than Tom Brady's I want to play until I'm 45 and now it's as long as I can, Rodgers saying he wants to play into his 40's, etc...etc..you still need a QB and you MIGHT have just given away your oppurtunity to go out and get your future QB who you could have let sit behind Big Ben for a year or two like Arod did. Jake Herbert top Comp is to Big Ben.

 

AS you can see by my other posts I agree with your side on this that I wouldn't have done this trade based on our knowledge here. I'd have let the team lose for a year and hoped to get a top top pick for the next QB. Heck, even if they're supremely confident in Rudolph. Say he does well, even as a first timer he's probably still not winning a ton of games this year so you'd be able to get a great pick to go with him in this draft.

 

Yes, exactly. I wanted Fitzpatrick because he's a perfect fit for the Packers and if you add him to THIS defense with Rodgers who should have 4 years left(the amount of time left on Fitzpatrick's rookie deal)....well, you're only giving up a pick that's in the 20's. Hopefully mid 20's. But the best case for the Steelers is still most likely picking around 10. And that brings me back to Delpit, the safety in this draft that's just an absolute monster. The type of guy the Packers have ZERO chance of drafting unless they lose out! The Steelers would be in a position to still draft him even if Rudolph proves to be the future in Pitt.

 

Also, Snapper was talking about how we need a backup and how we need to invest some draft capital into a QB. To me, drafting Rudolph, a big, slower pocket passer...ie, a similar style to Big Ben, you're drafting what you HOPE will be a good backup, but probably not a future starter, the type of guy who can lead the team to the Super Bowl.

 

But you were dead on when you made that comment about Mahomes. I've said a few times how I thought it was crazy for the Chiefs to give that much up to draft him at 10. That he was a guy with a strong arm and a little mobility who would throw 25 picks.....and the dude is just super human. He's the best pure talent at QB I've ever seen. He's not passed up Rodgers in that regard in my opinion.

 

 

----I love the debates though. This is what makes sports great. 3 people can look at a scenario and see it 3 different ways. Snapper thinks it's a good move by the Steelers, you seem to be kinda in the middle and I think as soon as Big Ben went down, they should have totally taken that pick off the table.

 

 

Sir, I think you're arguing and debating yourself here.

 

I said there was a parallel in that they've had Rudolph and should know what they have in him and how that's similar to what GB had. I don't know how that's debatable. I didn't say I agreed with the choice, I said it's a similar situation. I said a team knows more about a guy they've had in house for 2-3 years than they do an unknown draft pick, again I have no idea how that's debatable. If you don't think teams that typically win and get these things right over and over and over like Pit and NE deserve a little benefit of the doubt I don't know what to say. Think Pit has been proven right on two public things they got blasted for in the last year in Brown and Bell. Rewind to Mike Wallace too.

 

I've said the whole time I'd have kept the pick expecting to lose this year and try to get my next QB. Just was pointing out some of the nuances and gray areas of it all.

 

If I was guessing I'd also say this isn't a bet that Rudolph is awesome, it's that they think Ben is back next year. Just a guess of course, we'll see. I still don't agree with it with the info available to jabronis like us. Even if he is back he doesn't have much time left and this draft has two legit top level QB prospects, perfect set of "luck" to have the injury happen this year.

 

Guess you could say the same about NO. Assuming they own their pick (I didn't check), sucks they had a SB team go down but say they have an awful record when Brees is close to coming back. Why not string that out a bit longer and shoot for that top 10 pick that could get them their next QB. Obviously trickier situation due to Brees not out for the year though.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Trevor Davis dealt to the Raiders.

[nodakfan17]

Guesses on what the Packers received in return?

 

A 7th? Hopefully not another swap. I can’t keep track of those anymore.

[patrickgpe]

Trevor Davis dealt to the Raiders.

interesting. no report on whats coming back. I would assume Shepherd will now take over, but I wonder who will get the roster spot.

[homer]

Guesses on what the Packers received in return?

 

A 7th? Hopefully not another swap. I can’t keep track of those anymore.

 

can't be much more than that. 6th at most.

 

Darrius Shepard....come on down.

[patrickgpe]

Guesses on what the Packers received in return?

 

A 7th? Hopefully not another swap. I can’t keep track of those anymore.

 

can't be much more than that. 6th at most.

 

Darrius Shepard....come on down.

maybe not, saw that Tremon Smith returned 33 kicks for 886 yards for KC last year, with a 97 yd return again NE as well. . Ranked 4th in the NFL on return avg.

[homer]

Davis had 23 snaps on offense. I don't think Smith is taking those. Also did Smith return punts?

[nodakfan17]

It’s a 6th-Rounder for Davis, per Oakland Tribune.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

It’s a 6th-Rounder for Davis, per Oakland Tribune.

 

About what can be expected. Davis is a roster filler type.

[nodakfan17]

I love that BG has been able to flip bubble players for picks:

 

Brett Hundley (6)

Ty Montgomery (7)

Reggie Gilbert (7)

Trevor Davis (6)

 

Is this just a streak of luck, or was TT just not picking up the phone?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Slightly surprising as he had been the PR.

[patrickgpe]

Slightly surprising as he had been the PR.

i doubt the packers would have traded their PR without a plan. this seemed to come out of nowhere, so lets see what happens Sunday. I also (while understand it is slightly different) believe that if you can return kicks you can return punts, so between Sheperd and Smith I think they will be fine. I also am interested to see who takes the roster spot once the transaction is official.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think it's pretty obvious they claimed Tremon Smith because they knew they were getting rid of Davis. Smith will be the PR. It would surprise me if he isn't.

[MrTPlush]

I think it's pretty obvious they claimed Tremon Smith because they knew they were getting rid of Davis. Smith will be the PR. It would surprise me if he isn't.

 

Also wouldn't be shocked if they saw Smith and decided to upgrade the return game...then just turning to whoever would give something for Davis as he was pretty worthless then. Smith is also probably more valuable on the depth chart as a CB than Davis is as a WR.

 

Smith has 26.8 yards per kick return to his resume....Davis had 22.6 to his name on kick returns. Pretty dramatic difference as Davis arguably hurt us taking returns out. Davis also had a long kick return of just 34 yards in his career while Smith took one back 97 yards last year. The later probably inflates the overall average a touch, but he definitely better historically.

 

Smith has never taken punts back, so that should be interesting. Not sure the punt return experience on the current team...they may prefer it in trustier hands if that is the concern.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

That's more what I meant, poorly stated. They placed the claim on Smith and then had no use for Davis, and like you said, a guy that provides CB depth was more useful than a replaceable WR. But I just realized Smith took Greene's spot, so there should still be some roster move. Smith was a PR in college.

[MrTPlush]

Smith was a PR in college.

 

Okay, I didn't know if there was a reason he was only taking back kickoffs. I know some players can quickly get shunned from punts if they don't protect the ball with their life as a muffed punt is a disaster. He only averaged about 5 yards in his limited punting returning in college.

 

I suppose Grandpa Williams could do the punt returning. They trusted him quite a bit last year with it.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Smith was a PR in college.

 

Okay, I didn't know if there was a reason he was only taking back kickoffs. I know some players can quickly get shunned from punts if they don't protect the ball with their life as a muffed punt is a disaster. He only averaged about 5 yards in his limited punting returning in college.

 

I suppose Grandpa Williams could do the punt returning. They trusted him quite a bit last year with it.

 

The only reason Smith wasn't returning punts with Kansas City last year is that Tyreek Hill is kind of the God of Punt Returns. I believe Smith returned punts for them the last two preseasons, and did it regularly in college.

[homer]

With all the touchbacks on kickoffs, I'm not sure a kickoff returner is all that valuable anymore. A punt returner is much more valuable, IMO.

[MrTPlush]

He returned 14 punts in 12 games in college from what I saw...all in 2017, no kick returns in college. His average on punts in college was 5 yards, not the greatest. Of course I won't pretend to know I watch any of them. I thought about Hill, but this year he has gotten zero punt returns, so not sure what to think of that.

 

Also I checked the preseason. He took back punts twice, once in the first game and once in the last game. Now of course I assume fair catches don't count towards stats so other appearances may not be reflected in that.

 

I think he could bring kick off value. He is dangerous enough to give the occasional mid field starting point...Davis was pretty useless. Maybe our blockers just suck, who knows.

[FVBrewerFan]

For me, 90% of KR/PR is just don't turn it over. If they went the entire season with no muffs/fumbles on returns, I would consider that a win. Yea, having an explosive guy would be great, but more of a luxury.