2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread

[CheezWizHed]

Raven Greene to IR

 

And Savage limping after the game... Time to trade for Fitzpatrick. Yes, I know he isn't a safety, but that will allow more flexibility with Williams.

 

or claim cornerback and kick returner Tremon Smith off waivers from the Chiefs...

[homer]

Doesn't sound like GB is making a play for Fitzpatrick:

 

[MrTPlush]

Jalen Ramsey...?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Minkah to the Steelers for a 1st. Could be a decently high 1st, too, considering Big Ben is done for the year. Maybe even a top 10 pick. Wow.

[homer]

Steelers think they're going to be good?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Steelers think they're going to be good?

 

Well, they are already 0-2, and are looking at starting a green as grass QB the rest of the year. Perhaps they believe that Minkah is worth the possible (likely) top 5 pick they are giving up?

[nodakfan17]

Steelers think they're going to be good?

 

Well, they are already 0-2, and are looking at starting a green as grass QB the rest of the year. Perhaps they believe that Minkah is worth the possible (likely) top 5 pick they are giving up?

 

Maybe. That seems like a stretch, considering they might need a new QB.

[HiAndTight]

Raven Greene to IR

 

And Savage limping after the game... Time to trade for Fitzpatrick. Yes, I know he isn't a safety, but that will allow more flexibility with Williams.

 

 

He is depending on who you ask. The Dolphins are playing him at safety this year.

 

But yeah, the Steelers after they find out they lose Big Ben for the year trade Fitzpatrick for a 1st round pick. Of all the times in the last 10-15 years, this might have been the absolute worst time for the Steelers to make this trade. The day they lose their franchise QB for the year(maybe career).

 

Also, Savage is fine, isn't he? I thought he just got kicked in the shin. He has been everything we could have hoped for so far.

[HiAndTight]

Steelers think they're going to be good?

 

Well, they are already 0-2, and are looking at starting a green as grass QB the rest of the year. Perhaps they believe that Minkah is worth the possible (likely) top 5 pick they are giving up?

 

Maybe. That seems like a stretch, considering they might need a new QB.

 

 

Well....they obviously think he's worth it. They just traded for him. These teams aren't stupid. They know as bad as they looked week 1 and after losing Big Ben for the season and possibly his career(he was talking retirement last year and will be 38 when he does come back).

 

And yet they still traded for Fitzpatrick. That'd seem to suggest that they think very highly of him.

 

The idea that the Dolphins had dropped their asking price down to a 2nd round pick for him seemed just way too out there. Not with the list of teams bidding on him.

[HiAndTight]

Jalen Ramsey...?

 

 

 

Sure. Offer the Jags a 3rd round pick for him. Otherwise, he's probably not worth the headache. Coming to camp in a Brinks truck...he's almost certain to demand a record-setting deal after this year.

 

Someone who might be interesting would be Patrick Peterson. He's still a good corner, he's on a 6 game suspension for PED's...which isn't that big of a deal in the NFL, and he's an older player who doesn't really fit with what the Cards are building. And he probably could be had for a 4th rounder.

 

Just hypothetically though, Ramsey would be pretty awesome. And two games doesn't change Kevin King's injury history, so you still need to be on the lookout for corners.

 

 

But man that Raven Greene injury is a huge blow. He was one of the most imporved players for the Packers and played an enormous role for the Packers vs the Beers. I know he's having surgery on his ankle, I haven't heard how bad it is. I wonder if he could be back for the last quarter of the season or if it's a 6-8 month type injury.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Ben is 37 years old and not one of the QBs that exemplifies personal fitness. He has remained productive, but an arm injury that requires surgery at his age is not good. And Rudolph is a 3rd round pick, obviously they thought highly of him. It makes sense to me they go after some pieces to improve the entire team and give the young QB a shot to be productive. Rudolph may tank, but this is sort of a prototypical "legend loses his starting gig" situation. His contract probably prevents that from happening, but the Steelers are being proactive in the event he comes back next year and looks like late-stage Peyton Manning.

 

But Rudolph is almost definitely going to be the guy all year. You don't draft a guy that high to go get somebody else when his opportunity comes up.

[tmwiese55]

My gut was why would Pit make this trade in a year they're going to lose. Before Ben's injury, sure, you're trying to win it all. Now, you're likely in rebuild mode and this is like your first crack at a top 10 pick in forever since Pit is always good (note, I didn't go and double check if there was a fluke year they got a top-ish pick). This could've been similar to the Manning/Luck situation where you luck into a QB right away to replace your legend. Plus, there is at least two legit top QB prospects in Tua and the Oregon QB.

[homer]

Yeah it just seems odd to me that you would go get a second-year guy who would probably be ready for a giant extension right about the time you hope to compete again.

[MrTPlush]

The most confusing part is they are giving up their golden ticket draft pick that would allow them to get their QB of the future. What are you going to do now? Pick once with your 2nd round pick...good luck. I just don't get that at all. Seems they are going to try and win it all with Big Ben 1-2 more times. Which coming off the injury and his age is borderline dumb. I think they are grasping at their relevancy only to get some disappointing years before they have to tank for the QB...something they could have now instead of 3-4 years from now. Or...maybe they try and get lucky outside of the first round getting a QB. Good luck on that goal though.

[tmwiese55]

The most confusing part is they are giving up their golden ticket draft pick that would allow them to get their QB of the future. What are you going to do now? Pick once with your 2nd round pick...good luck. I just don't get that at all. Seems they are going to try and win it all with Big Ben 1-2 more times. Which coming off the injury and his age is borderline dumb. I think they are grasping at their relevancy only to get some disappointing years before they have to tank for the QB...something they could have now instead of 3-4 years from now. Or...maybe they try and get lucky outside of the first round getting a QB. Good luck on that goal though.

 

Yea I generally agree, that's basically what I was getting at as well. I suppose it's possible they are confident that Rudolph is that guy, granted I haven't seen him since college but I wouldn't be too confident in him.

 

Remember 2-3 years ago when it was out there that Ben was contemplating retirement already back then? Have to think he's not long for this and could just take his money and go home right now. So from afar I wouldn't be planning on running it back with him a few more times, especially with this injury. But who knows maybe they've talked about all this and he's confirmed he's in for at least a couple more years.

[young guns]

They probably already think they have their QBs of the future in Rudolph, but that's still a probable high pick to give up. Though if Rudolph hits the ground running it might not be as good.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I really don't think NFL teams immediately start thinking about draft position once their QB gets hurt. There are too many people with jobs on the line for that to be reality. I'm sure it's sort of a soft goal when your guy gets hurt and the backup is Vinny Testaverde and Andrew Luck is coming out of school, but the Steelers used a 3rd rounder on this guy, and have been singing his praises since last year. They're going to try to win. Things shift in the NFL way too quickly to plan 3 and 4 year rebuilds. If he is even a component starter they could be winning the AFC within a couple of seasons. It's just not really like baseball in that regard. I think it was Golic lamenting that shipping Alex Smith was stupid because even if Mahomes was good the Chiefs wouldn't be "going anywhere with him next year."

[tmwiese55]

True. Besides Mahomes, another obvious example is Favre/Rodgers. JAbronis like us on a computer back then could've been saying the same thing as we are now in the 'yea I doubt Rudolph is really any good'. Turns out the coaches knew and were correct. We'll see of course, but yea Pitt's history seems to lean towards giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

To your jobs on the line comment, generally you're correct. I know ESPN will start pumping the "will Tomlin be fired" hot takes to get attention and clicks but really this guy should be as stable as they come with his history there.

[HiAndTight]

Ben is 37 years old and not one of the QBs that exemplifies personal fitness. He has remained productive, but an arm injury that requires surgery at his age is not good. And Rudolph is a 3rd round pick, obviously they thought highly of him. It makes sense to me they go after some pieces to improve the entire team and give the young QB a shot to be productive. Rudolph may tank, but this is sort of a prototypical "legend loses his starting gig" situation. His contract probably prevents that from happening, but the Steelers are being proactive in the event he comes back next year and looks like late-stage Peyton Manning.

 

But Rudolph is almost definitely going to be the guy all year. You don't draft a guy that high to go get somebody else when his opportunity comes up.

 

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point here. Yes, Big Ben's future is in doubt. He'd already briefly thought about retirement last year or the year before. He's nearing 40 and just suffered a serious injury.

 

And yes, Rudolph may absolutely tank. There's a FAR greater chance he tank than he hits. But they like him(or they've said, what are they supposed to say? Remember how much McCarthy and Clements liked Hundley and Kizer? And that's Clement and McCarthy, say what you will about them, but they're definitely better at developing QB's than the current Steelers staff).

 

So you're argument that they're going to stick with Rudolph..nobody is arguing that. That's not the issue at all. The question everyone is asking, especially Steelers fans who appears livid about this and reporters are asking is why would you possibly make this trade now? Now when a best case scenario for the Steelers most likely is probably an 8 win team and the worst case is a 4 win team...why would you make the trade now? And why do you think the Dolphins who had 6 or 7 teams bidding on Fitzpatrick completed this trade the day that Big Ben went down with a career ending injury?

 

I really don't think NFL teams immediately start thinking about draft position once their QB gets hurt.

 

Right. Their QB gets hurt and they don't start looking at the standings and ask where are we gonna be picking. Again, nobody's saying they do.

 

However when you've got that 1st round pick and you're trying to trade it and a franchise altering move happens, one that is likely to have a significant impact on the value of that draft pick, OF COURSE they start thinking about their "potential," draft position.

 

They're going to try to win. Things shift in the NFL way too quickly to plan 3 and 4 year rebuilds. If he is even a component starter they could be winning the AFC within a couple of seasons.

 

Again, you're conflating two things. Nobody said that they'd intentionally start to tank. However NOW without Big Ben(as well as all the other injuries they already have) they're projected to win 4.6 GAMES. That'd put them in contention for one of the top 3-4 picks.

[HiAndTight]

True. Besides Mahomes, another obvious example is Favre/Rodgers. JAbronis like us on a computer back then could've been saying the same thing as we are now in the 'yea I doubt Rudolph is really any good'. Turns out the coaches knew and were correct. We'll see of course, but yea Pitt's history seems to lean towards giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

To your jobs on the line comment, generally you're correct. I know ESPN will start pumping the "will Tomlin be fired" hot takes to get attention and clicks but really this guy should be as stable as they come with his history there.

 

 

Favre-Rodgers is about 1 in 1,000. Tommy Maddux/Elway is the other 999. How many 1st round picks did the Bronco's use on QB's since Elway? I know they took Maddux, Tebow, Cutler, I think they took Jake Palmer, Paxton Lynch...and plenty of 3rd rounders.

 

 

And while obviously people didn't see Mahomes coming, the Chiefs traded TWO 1st round picks and a 3rd to move up and get him. And people knew he had talent. We saw all types of highlights. The knock on him was that he was a project because he played in that Run N' Gun/Spread type offense. But sure, he vastly exceeded expectations. That's a world away from the Steelers who do NOT have a great history of developing QB's drafting Mason Rudolph in the 3rd round a few years ago.

 

 

FINALLY, and I'm steeling this point from Ryan Clark, just to throw that out there. But the BEST rated safety prospect to come out of College in the last 20 years, Grant Delpit is in this draft class. A 6'3 freakishly talented safety who can cover. This is a guy who's been compared to Fitzpatrick's skill set in terms of ability to cover, to tackle, to play FS....in addition to having Sean Taylor's athletic ability. So a bigger, faster, better version of Fitzpatrick would have been within reach.

 

That's assuming that they go through this season, a season that's already seen multiple starters go down with injuries, including one starting safety, and they decide they do in fact have their QB of the future in Mason Rudolph.

 

To give up a 1st, 4th and a 7th...well, the Dolphins are just fleecing teams. Good for Trevor Lawrence though. They've got time to build an elite offensive line and start to put in place the start of an elite defense by the time he comes out and is ready to play.

[HiAndTight]

My gut was why would Pit make this trade in a year they're going to lose. Before Ben's injury, sure, you're trying to win it all. Now, you're likely in rebuild mode and this is like your first crack at a top 10 pick in forever since Pit is always good (note, I didn't go and double check if there was a fluke year they got a top-ish pick). This could've been similar to the Manning/Luck situation where you luck into a QB right away to replace your legend. Plus, there is at least two legit top QB prospects in Tua and the Oregon QB.

 

 

 

Like I've said, just go check out Steelers fan boards. They're all pretty much saying the same thing.

 

 

It's possible that you find a QB that's not a 1st rounder, but it's rare and everyone points to it when it happens. Russell Wilson would be a 1st round pick today, he had to pave the way for the "short guy." Brady just wasn't athletic, he wasn't a star in College. But Rodgers, Mahomes, Manning(s), Rivers, Watson, Brees(1st pick of the 2nd round), Big Ben, Geoff, Wentz, Newton. I'm sure I'm missing some. But outside of Brady and Wilson, are there any really good QB's who were taken later in the draft? I guess you could say if you've got a great OL(Which the Steelers have) a great defense(which they just drastically improved) and a great running game(which they do not have) you can get by and your QB can look good like Dak does in Dallas, but it takes everything.

 

 

There's just nothing that can convince me this made sense. I'll guess they end up with 6 wins.

Ed Werder

The Steelers' 2020 pick has a 29% chance to be in the top 5 and 62% chance to be in the top 10, per FPI.

 

 

All that said, I think he's gonna be a superstar with the Steelers and Nick Saban did call him the best leader he's ever had. So this has nothing to do with him, more just how stupid I think this was from a franchises perspective.

[tmwiese55]

Well I brought it up along the lines similar to the situation another poster mentioned how KC traded away Smith (known vet) to give the guy they had in house his chance, just like GB did. In that they have the in person knowledge that if they feel he's legit/good that they're ok with it. It's moreso than a vague draft pick that could just as easily bust like Leaf and countless other QBs. It's a bit different than just going with a draft pick you don't really know squat about. Just some pararrels in the theoretical situation.

 

Generally I'd agree with what you said there on chances of hitting two in a row, etc. How luck it is and so forth. But, it happened for GB and it happened for Colts, could even say similarly with Bledsoe/Brady. So if you have an opportunity to pull it off it's huge for the franchise. Personally, if I was their fan I'd rather go with the top pick this year rather than Rudolph. But, I haven't worked with Rudolph every day for years, so maybe they're that confident in him. IDK. My guess would be that they think Ben is playing a couple more years, not that that they think Rudolph is star caliber.

 

As you can see by my other posts I agree with your side on this that I wouldn't have done this trade based on our knowledge here. I'd have let the team lose for a year and hoped to get a top top pick for the next QB. Heck, even if they're supremely confident in Rudolph. Say he does well, even as a first timer he's probably still not winning a ton of games this year so you'd be able to get a great pick to go with him in this draft.

[HiAndTight]

 

 

Well I brought it up along the lines similar to the situation another poster mentioned how KC traded away Smith (known vet) to give the guy they had in house his chance, just like GB did. In that they have the in person knowledge that if they feel he's legit/good that they're ok with it. It's moreso than a vague draft pick that could just as easily bust like Leaf and countless other QBs. It's a bit different than just going with a draft pick you don't really know squat about. Just some pararrels in the theoretical situation.

 

Yeah, I get that. But, of course in both those situations you had a 1st rounder QB on the bench, the guy you went after to take over(especially Mahomes, Rodgers just fell to us, though TT apparently did consider trading up to get him and liked him the whole time). In the Packers situation, you were backed into a corner. Rodgers was 1 year away from being a Free Agent and you told him he'd be the starter and then Favre decided to come back.

 

The Chiefs, again, traded 3 picks, two 1sts and a 2nd I believe to trade up and get Mahomes and then let him sit for a year. So you were CHOOSING to go with your first round pick. You made that choice. That's different than going with a guy you picked a few years ago in the 3rd round due to injury.

 

And I just reject the "it's just a draft pick, you never know," argument in the NFL. No, there's so much less room for error. That's a throw away line. And didn't you just say, the Steelers have earned the benefit of the doubt? Now you're throwing out the, "it's just a draft pick, not a real player," line? No, it's the most valuable commodity in the NFL. A top 5-10 draft pick potentially for a team that may very well NEED a QB.

 

Generally I'd agree with what you said there on chances of hitting two in a row, etc. How luck it is and so forth. But, it happened for GB and it happened for Colts, could even say similarly with Bledsoe/Brady. So if you have an opportunity to pull it off it's huge for the franchise. Personally, if I was their fan I'd rather go with the top pick this year rather than Rudolph. But, I haven't worked with Rudolph every day for years, so maybe they're that confident in him. IDK. My guess would be that they think Ben is playing a couple more years, not that that they think Rudolph is start caliber.

 

Yeah, but the Colts only got Luck BECAUSE THEY HAD THEIR DRAFT PICK!! I mean, that's the perfect argument for NOT trading him. And in Green Bay, again, we had the 2nd QB picked and a 1st rounder we'd groomed to take over. Maybe Mason Rudolph is going to be that dude....but you're betting the future of your franchise on Rudolph being that good. Good enough to compete with him as your QB.

 

And I bet they do think that Big Ben is coming back. He said he was. But he'll be 39 when he comes back and there are a lot of questions on that team. And even then, how long is he coming back for? He's already said that he "will fulfill his contractual obligation." That's a very different tone than Tom Brady's I want to play until I'm 45 and now it's as long as I can, Rodgers saying he wants to play into his 40's, etc...etc..you still need a QB and you MIGHT have just given away your oppurtunity to go out and get your future QB who you could have let sit behind Big Ben for a year or two like Arod did. Jake Herbert top Comp is to Big Ben.

 

AS you can see by my other posts I agree with your side on this that I wouldn't have done this trade based on our knowledge here. I'd have let the team lose for a year and hoped to get a top top pick for the next QB. Heck, even if they're supremely confident in Rudolph. Say he does well, even as a first timer he's probably still not winning a ton of games this year so you'd be able to get a great pick to go with him in this draft.

 

Yes, exactly. I wanted Fitzpatrick because he's a perfect fit for the Packers and if you add him to THIS defense with Rodgers who should have 4 years left(the amount of time left on Fitzpatrick's rookie deal)....well, you're only giving up a pick that's in the 20's. Hopefully mid 20's. But the best case for the Steelers is still most likely picking around 10. And that brings me back to Delpit, the safety in this draft that's just an absolute monster. The type of guy the Packers have ZERO chance of drafting unless they lose out! The Steelers would be in a position to still draft him even if Rudolph proves to be the future in Pitt.

 

Also, Snapper was talking about how we need a backup and how we need to invest some draft capital into a QB. To me, drafting Rudolph, a big, slower pocket passer...ie, a similar style to Big Ben, you're drafting what you HOPE will be a good backup, but probably not a future starter, the type of guy who can lead the team to the Super Bowl.

 

But you were dead on when you made that comment about Mahomes. I've said a few times how I thought it was crazy for the Chiefs to give that much up to draft him at 10. That he was a guy with a strong arm and a little mobility who would throw 25 picks.....and the dude is just super human. He's the best pure talent at QB I've ever seen. He's notNOW passed up Rodgers in that regard in my opinion.

 

 

----I love the debates though. This is what makes sports great. 3 people can look at a scenario and see it 3 different ways. Snapper thinks it's a good move by the Steelers, you seem to be kinda in the middle and I think as soon as Big Ben went down, they should have totally taken that pick off the table.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

My point is that NFL teams try every day to make the teams better. They don't just white flag it when the franchise QB gets hurt like fans do. If they wanted Fitzpatrick last week they should probably still try and get him with or without Ben. The price is another story but if they thought he was worth it, so be it. League is full of teams that win with back ups. The Eagles won a Super Bowl with a pretty pedestrian backup. The Patriots won 11 games. It happens all the time. He doesn't need to be Favre-Rodgers or Manning-Luck for them to be successful.

 

This isn't the NBA. NFL teams really don't tank. We had Packer Nation up in arms last year when they beat the Jets or whatever and I couldn't have cared less. It's just a silly concept in football. The first round is littered with guys who suck and for the most part the same teams are picking high every year. Somehow the Patriots, Packers and Steelers have done just fine without annual top 5 picks.

 

Also, the statement about them drafting Rudolph hoping he is a good backup is totally baseless. I am sure they are hoping he is a starting prospect that either a) steps in for injury or b) could have flipped had Ben stayed healthy.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

As I mentioned in the general NFL thread, the Steelers are 100% sold on Rudolph and are gunning to still make the playoffs this year. Minkah was a win-now trade.