Brewer’s All Time Failed Expectations Team

[paul253]

I’ll add Sean Berry, just because he was such a big free agent signing for us at the time. Ditto for Ben McDonald.

 

Then I’ll say Mat Gamel, Eric Arnett, Jungmann and Bradley of course, Jeffrey Hammonds, Mark Rogers, Mike Jones, Kentrail Davis, Manny Parra and Dana Eveland. Oh and Ben Hendrickson.

[bork]

I see Hammonds mentioned a few times. Did people really have high expectations of him? A lot of people at the time questioned the move, spending all that money on a guy with a ton of injuries and 1 year of inflated numbers in Colorado. He was injured and mediocre during his time with the Brewers, as expected.

[Yount19]

adding some more..

 

for me Glenn Braggs.. man I thought he was going to be superstar.. he looked the part..

 

Tyrone Hill.. I remember reading about him in Baseball America .. surefire ace..

 

David Krynzel and all of the El Paso Diablo inflated all stars.. (Meyer, Stanicek, Billie Joe Robidoux, Lavell Freeman.. etc..)

[Outlander]

Yes Jeffrey Hammonds was a big disappointment that did not meet the huge expectations the Brewers tried to sell to the fans. Good timing for Hammonds but the Brewers were moving into Miller Park and trying to show the fans they were going to spend money to win at the new park by giving Hammonds the largest contract in team history up to that point. He was also coming off multiple 2 WAR season withs the Reds and Rockies respectively and came nowhere near that in his entire career with the Brewers

[Jopal78]

Surprisingly, you have to go back pretty far to find some outfielders for the Brewers that they went with for years without any real productivity.

 

For example the primary starters for the last 25+ years:

 

LF: Greg Vaughn '90-'96 Geoff Jenkins '98-'04, '07 Carlos Lee '05-'06, Braun '08-'13 Khris Davis '14-'15 Braun '16-current

 

CF: After Yount they basically cycled through CFers every other year until Mike Cameron, Gomez '10-'15, more journeymen, then Cain '18-current

 

RF: Matt Mieske '93-'97 Jeromy Burnitz '98-'01, Jenkins '05-06, Hart '07-'11 Aoki '12-'13 Braun '14-'15, Santana '16-'17, Yelich '18-current

[Oxy]

Darryl Hamilton deserves a little more mention than just "cycled through." He overlapped the end of Yount's career but spent 6 quality years as a Brewer.

 

I was more excited to get Marquis Grissom than Jeffrey Hammonds. Not really sure why.

[FVBrewerFan]

Kevin Mench

Glenn Braggs

Pat Listach

 

I'll think of more

[HiAndTight]

You certainly could not. I don't know how you take two guys, a 24 year old who excelled for the Brewers last year and in the post-season and a guy who just recently turned 23 years old and has an FIP of 3.94 and declare them "all time Failed expectations team."

 

Of course I also wouldn't go with anyone who was simply drafted high as the "bust rate" is so absurdly high that every team would have probably dozens of pitchers to choose from. Neugherbauer had far higher expectations, Jones had higher expectations. Kenny Felder, Williamson a top 5 pick, JM Gold...all these guys would and many-MANY more would fit this bill.

 

The subject is "failed expectations". You can't possibly suggest that Burnes and Peralta haven't failed their expectations in a major way? The front office carried out their offseason plan expecting Burnes and Peralta to step into the rotation. That is why they didn't resign Miley, that is why they didn't try to acquire any starting pitching in the off season. Their inability to pitch effectively in the rotation resulted in a chain reaction and is certainly one reason the team is where it is right now.

 

In terms of being an "All Time Failure", the 2019 Brewers are the defending Division Champions and had the best record in their league last season. Even if they suddenly and magically started winning again at a .589 clip, that would put them around 87-88 wins. The reality is they'll more likely than not finish around 83-79, an incredible tumble from 2018 and despite returning almost every key contributor from the 96 win team. With Peralta and Burnes' struggles being one of the main components of this collapse, I would say that is an all time failure even for this team which is mostly known for futility.

 

 

The Subject is the Brewers ALL TIME Failed Expectations team. If you want to throw out two guys who's careers have just begun...well, that seems a bit premature. Again, especially given how good both have looked at times. I would not have Guessed Peralta has just a 3.94 FIP, but a 23 year old we got as a throw in who has a 3.94 FIP almost has to be banned from this list, as does a 2nd rounder we drafted just a couple years ago who's only 24 and was a key pitcher in our run last year.

 

If this thread was the guys who have failed to live up to expectations this year then I think Burnes and Peralta would be fine, but as it sits, I kinda agree, it seems a lilttle silly. And then just the pure speculation as to why they didn't bring back Miley when they reportedly wanted to bring him back and piling on with how good the team was last year and that's somehow on the shoulders of two guys as young as them? I can't fathom what you'd have been saying about Roy Halladay early in his career(though deeper into it than Burnes or Peralta). You'd have written him off as one of the worst big league pitchers ever. And why wouldn't Shaw and Aguilar make your list? They're at least older and every day players who aren't as prone to wild swings to back of their card because of a few particularly bad outings.

 

It'd be like listing Brandon Woodruff as the greatest pitcher in Brewers history because this year he was the greatest pitcher. This whole argument seems like taking recency bias to an absolutely absurd level. There should be a requirement...a good start would be not still enormous parts of the Brewers future plans, still in the organization and only about 1 full year into their careers(and still very young).

 

 

 

Anyway, actual candidates who come and gone. Just in the past 10-15 years, a couple of big ones on the mound would have to be Wily Peralta and Manny Parra. Peralta had ace-like stuff. Threw in the upper 90's, had good movement on his fastball, had that "breakout" year and then fell off a cliff. Parra was a power lefty who just never put it together for any sustained period of time. Zack Braddock was another guy who had great stuff but just couldn't put it together.

 

I like Salome at catcher....though I do have a bit more sympathy for players who suffer injuries, those seen and unseen and he dealt with the later to some degree.

 

Pat Listach. That amazing season where the Brewers were chasing the Jays the whole year and into the final weekend and he was the catalyst on the team. I guess that'd bring up Cal Eldred as well as he dominated that year almost like CC did after we traded for him-after Eldred came up and went into the rotation.

 

Marc Newfield is an obvious one, but we've had quite a few in the OF.

 

 

But man, there are just soooo many options for this list. It's almost hard to remember all the guys that you were excited about at the time. The year we went out and made a "big" FA splash and signed Hammonds. I think Villar should be in the utility role. I mean, we didn't expect him to be good until he was..so then we expected it.

 

It's too early to write off Brett Phillips, but I thought he'd be a bigger impact player for the Brewers. Still hoping he will be for the Royals.

[HiAndTight]

Kevin Mench

Glenn Braggs

Pat Listach

 

I'll think of more

 

 

Mench? Again, I struggle to remember who we were that excited about, but I guess I don't recall high expectations for Mench. Braggs is another really good one.

 

Whoever mentioned Ben Gamel, that's a big one, both as someone I've somehow forgotten even though his brother is currently on the team and because he was supposed to be that final piece, that lefty handed bat on a predominantly right-handed hitting team that could get us over the hump and help put out just a ridiculously deep lineup.

 

I remember when he hit his first HR vs St Louis the Cards announcers made some dry, almost annoyed comment along the lines of, "great, just what they need, ANOTHER power hitter." It sure seemed like he was going to be the next Braun type offensive talent and then injuries just kinda zapped him.

[HiAndTight]

Darryl Hamilton deserves a little more mention than just "cycled through." He overlapped the end of Yount's career but spent 6 quality years as a Brewer.

 

I was more excited to get Marquis Grissom than Jeffrey Hammonds. Not really sure why.

 

 

Hamilton was a really nice player for the Brewers for a while, agreed. Put up a couple 3.6 WAR seasons, dealt with some injuries, but still, good 6 year run in Milwaukee.

 

I was more excited about Grissom as well(though a little let down because that's the year we were rumored to be going after Kenny Lofton if I remember correctly and then settled for Grissom).

 

But Grissom was a more exciting player.

 

Hammonds belongs on the list though because as others pointed out, he got that record contract. And that's when the team was really over the top cheap. That one just seemed SOO obvious to fail though. With him having a big year with the Rockies the year before, you just knew it was a fluke.

 

Grissom though was like a poor mans Lofton in CF and on the bases. At least that's how I remembered it.

 

 

Also, that doesn't have much to do with the Brewers, but anyone realizes that Dante Bichette had a career, CAREER WAR of just 5.7? That just doesn't seem like it can possibly be right. He had a couple of huge seasons, he had that cannon in RF. If someone would have asked me to guess, I'd have thought he had a career WAR of ~25-30, not 5.7. But in refreshing my memory on Hammonds year with the Rockies before coming to Milwaukee, I looked at the Rockies page and then his. 5.7 WAR. Seems impossible when the guy has as dominant a year as he did the year he finished runner up in the MVP and a guy who led the league in hits twice.

[stalton]

I know its probably sacraligious to say this, but if you look at Bill Hall's numbers after his great season in 06, he really took a plummet as he remained a Brewer

[Thurston Fluff]

John Jaha and Ron Belliard have to be on the list. Jimmy Haynes would be on my list if only because of timing. He could dominate twice through the lineup then totally suck on the third round. A classic five inning pitcher. Today he'd be a perfect fit. Back then, not so much.

[nate82]

Not sure why Surhoff is on the list but OK. Well I understand the expectations of being a top pick but other than Bonds, Larkin, Clark, and Palmerio that wasn't that bad of a pick by the Brewers at the time. It was probably more of a money move than anything else.

[Oxy]

Jaha was fine, he was just hurt all the time. He had a monster year in 96 and again in 99 for Oakland.

[Oxy]

Jaha was fine, he was just hurt all the time. He had a monster year in 96 and again in 99 for Oakland.

[TigerUppercut]

You certainly could not. I don't know how you take two guys, a 24 year old who excelled for the Brewers last year and in the post-season and a guy who just recently turned 23 years old and has an FIP of 3.94 and declare them "all time Failed expectations team."

 

Of course I also wouldn't go with anyone who was simply drafted high as the "bust rate" is so absurdly high that every team would have probably dozens of pitchers to choose from. Neugherbauer had far higher expectations, Jones had higher expectations. Kenny Felder, Williamson a top 5 pick, JM Gold...all these guys would and many-MANY more would fit this bill.

 

The subject is "failed expectations". You can't possibly suggest that Burnes and Peralta haven't failed their expectations in a major way? The front office carried out their offseason plan expecting Burnes and Peralta to step into the rotation. That is why they didn't resign Miley, that is why they didn't try to acquire any starting pitching in the off season. Their inability to pitch effectively in the rotation resulted in a chain reaction and is certainly one reason the team is where it is right now.

 

In terms of being an "All Time Failure", the 2019 Brewers are the defending Division Champions and had the best record in their league last season. Even if they suddenly and magically started winning again at a .589 clip, that would put them around 87-88 wins. The reality is they'll more likely than not finish around 83-79, an incredible tumble from 2018 and despite returning almost every key contributor from the 96 win team. With Peralta and Burnes' struggles being one of the main components of this collapse, I would say that is an all time failure even for this team which is mostly known for futility.

 

I would argue if your forecast of 83 wins comes to fruition it's more of a regression to the mean than anything. Take away last year's success and look at the rotation starting the year for what it was. Three young guys with little starting experience, a guy coming off a somewhat disappointing year (Davies) and a guy coming off a career year last year (Chacin). Who outside of MIL was thinking that rotation was capable of a repeat performance?

[DuWayne Steurer]

Expectations can mean a lot of different things to different people.

 

I had no expectations that Jeffrey Hammonds would produce in Milwaukee, so to me, that was not failed expectations.

 

I remember in 1983 when the Brewers traded my all time favorite player (Gorman Thomas) early in the season. 8 year old me was devastated. Crushed. How could they do this? I knew Gorman was off to a tough start to the 83 season, but the guy they were getting back better be AWESOME!!!!

 

Rick Manning? A slap hitting reserve outfielder? Oh man, this guy BETTER BE GOOD. He was not. My expectations were NOT MET. So that, to me, is a failed expectation.

 

On a more serious note.....

 

For some reason I thought Steve Woodard would become a solid #3 type guy. I guess I was way too enamored with that amazing duel with Roger Clemens.

 

Franklin Stubbs was an epic failure.

 

After hitting 25 homers and having 95 RBI in the juiced ball 1987 in his 2nd season, Dale Sveum was never again even close to average, which was really disappointing. I don't think he was every a big prospect, but certainly that 87 looked like somewhat of a breakout.

 

Billy Jo Robideaux is probably one of the most infamous Brewers flameouts (see my avatar)

 

I don't really view guys like Rickie Weeks or BJ Surhoff as failed expectations. Even for top draft picks it's hard to get to the big leagues and stick. If you get there, and stay for 10+ years and are a productive player on some decent teams, you're accomplishing something. For some reason Surhoff was always one of those guys I rooted hard for.

[willie key]

Wasn’t rick manning the guy who ended Paul molitors hit streak too

 

Even though he won the game he was booed

[DuWayne Steurer]

I was so mad at Rick Manning that night. Just another reason to hate him

[Eye Black]

A couple of guys that I was all in on after one great season were Pat Listach who had 4.5 bWAR in 1992 and finished his career with 4.4 bWAR as well as Scott Podsednik who had 3.6 bWAR in 2003 and finished his career with 6.8 bWAR.

 

The player that was traded as a prospect, but I was certain had a superstar future was Brett Lawrie.

 

I don’t know if this one qualifies because I didn’t think he was going to be a star, but I had high hopes for Taylor Green becoming an average regular for many years.

[Thurston Fluff]

After hitting 25 homers and having 95 RBI in the juiced ball 1987 in his 2nd season, Dale Sveum was never again even close to average, which was really disappointing. I don't think he was every a big prospect, but certainly that 87 looked like somewhat of a breakout.

 

He was drafted in the first round so he must have been viewed as a fairly significant prospect. He was overshadowed by Sheffield to some extent. He was never the same after that broken leg. Speaking of Sheffield he has to be considered one of the biggest disappointments of all time. He ended up having a great, though PED assisted, career but he was anything but HOF worthy with the Brewers. One the bright side we did get an all star season out of Ricky Bones.

[thebruce44]

I can't believe how far I had to scroll to see Ricky Bones be mentioned.

[Bob Skube Snacks]

This discussion is a great example of why the term “bust” is most often terribly defined by fans and the media too.

 

You’ve got free agent busts mixed in with draft busts, which, to me, are two totally different things. I would never compare Jeffrey Hammonds, a dubious signing even at the time, with Manny Parra, a quantity that everyone thought would pan out. There’s a big difference between a known questionable signing and the great unknown of a prospect not panning out. It’s why fans should never get overly enamored with prospects.

 

Then you have silly recency bias. Lewis Brinson? He has 55 more plate appearances than I do in a Brewers uniform and was the main trade piece in a deal that got us the NL MVP. He may very well end up as a Marlins bust, but not ours. Corbin Burnes? Freddy Peralta? Please. Have some patience.

[Thurston Fluff]

I can't believe how far I had to scroll to see Ricky Bones be mentioned.

 

To be fair, there were a lot to disappointments to choose from during the Bando era. Which probably explains why Scott Karl hasn't been mentioned yet.

[homer]

I can't believe how far I had to scroll to see Ricky Bones be mentioned.

 

To be fair, there were a lot to disappointments to choose from during the Bando era. Which probably explains why Scott Karl hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

Ben McDonald should be mentioned in every Bando related post.