Brewer’s All Time Failed Expectations Team

[TexasCheesehead]

If you had to choose three starters, eight position players, and a reliver to build a Brewers team of the guys with the most failed expectations...who would it be?

 

 

Reliever: Eric Gagne

 

SP: Jeff Suppan

SP: Matt Garza

SP: Ben Sheets (only because he never became what he should have been because of injuries)

 

C: Johnny Estrada

1B: Mat Gamel

2B: Rickie Weeks (wasn’t awful, but coming up he was supposed to be a perennial all star)

SS: Jonathan Scoop

3B: Corey Koskie (big contact, injuries)

 

OF: Jeffrey Hammonds

OF: Lewis Brinson

OF: Can’t think of one...

[TexasCheesehead]

You could argue between Gagne and Turnbow for reliever, but Turnbow didn’t come with the price tag.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Reliever:

 

SP: Nick Neugebauer

SP: Ben McDonald

SP: Jamey Wright

 

C: B.J. Surhoff

1B: Brad Nelson

2B: Ronnie Belliard or Junior Spivey

SS: Gary Sheffield or Jose Valentin

3B: Sal Bando or Tyler Houston

 

OF: Alex Sanchez

OF: Jeffrey Leonard

OF: Jeffrey Hammonds

[TexasCheesehead]

Reliever:

 

SP: Nick Neugebauer

SP: Ben McDonald

SP: Jamey Wright

 

C: B.J. Surhoff

1B: Brad Nelson

2B: Ronnie Belliard or Junior Spivey

SS: Gary Sheffield or Jose Valentin

3B: Sal Bando or Tyler Houston

 

OF: Alex Sanchez

OF: Jeffrey Leonard

OF: Jeffrey Hammonds

 

I’m sure a lot of those probably top my list. I’m only 24 so a lot of those names are before my time as a fan.

[homer]

Gagne was coming off an injury. I think most people had their fingers crossed about him.

[Jopal78]

SP: Mark Rogers. 5th overall pick in ‘04. Arm injuries early and often.

SP: Taylor Jungmann 12th overall in ‘11. Never developed command. Bust

SP: Jed Bradley 15th overall in ‘11. Bust. Never appeared for Brewers

(You could certainly put Burnes and Peralta in place of Bradley and Jungmann).

 

C: Andrew Susac. 1st round pedigree. Blocked behind Posey. Bust

1B: Mat Gamel. Top prospect, injured knee, never recovered

2B: Rickie Weeks. Never lived up to star billing but was ok player

SS: Jonathon Villar: First season with Brewers was a fluke

3B: Haven’t had an everyday one for more than a couple years since Cirillo so hard to say.

LF: Marc Newfield.

CF: Marquis Grissom: solid player before and after being a Brewer. 3 of the worst seasons in career occurred as a Brewer.

RF: Jeffrey Hammonds.

 

Reliever: Nathan Kirby. First round pick, blew out elbow after just five appearances in minors. Missed all of ‘16, ‘17 and has yet to pitch in ‘19

[TexasCheesehead]

SP: Mark Rogers. 5th overall pick in ‘04. Arm injuries early and often.

SP: Taylor Jungmann 12th overall in ‘11. Never developed command. Bust

SP: Jed Bradley 15th overall in ‘11. Bust. Never appeared for Brewers

(You could certainly put Burnes and Peralta in place of Bradley and Jungmann).

 

C: Andrew Susac. 1st round pedigree. Blocked behind Posey. Bust

1B: Mat Gamel. Top prospect, injured knee, never recovered

2B: Rickie Weeks. Never lived up to star billing but was ok player

SS: Jonathon Villar: First season with Brewers was a fluke

3B: Haven’t had an everyday one for more than a couple years since Cirillo so hard to say.

LF: Marc Newfield.

CF: Marquis Grissom: solid player before and after being a Brewer. 3 of the worst seasons in career occurred as a Brewer.

RF: Jeffrey Hammonds.

 

Reliever: Nathan Kirby. First round pick, blew out elbow after just five appearances in minors. Missed all of ‘16, ‘17 and has yet to pitch in ‘19

 

Why hasn’t Kirby pitched if he isn’t hurt?

[JimH5]

It is stunning to look at 50 years of Brewers drafts and see the only first rounders to have made any impact at all as starting pitchers for the Brewers were Sheets, Cal Eldred and Jeff D'Amico. Odorizzi was a trade chip and Alex Fernandez didn't sign. And that's about it. From Butch Edge to Nathan Kirby, there's a lot of disappointment in between.

 

Incidentally, Mark Rogers is still just 33 years old.

[Jopal78]

Back in May Kirby underwent his third arm operation.

[MrTPlush]

You guys are listing the wrong players:

 

Lewis Brinson:

 

Got us Yelich so cant say he ever got a chance to show us what he can do.

 

Jonathan Villar:

 

Pretty sure people didn’t expect much.

 

Jonathan Schoop:

 

I guess you could put him, but most hated that trade. So not sure he really failed expectations that much.

 

 

We need the true high expectation flops! I haven’t watch the Brewers terribly long though so getting past the flops of Mark Rogers, Angel Salome, and Manny Parra would be kinda tough. I’d guess most on the all-time list should be guys who were on the MLB team or got close. Flopped draft pick from the get go can only have so many expectations to start.

[JosephC]

I don't know if I would call him a big disappointment, because I'm not sure how many fans thought he was that good at the time. But remember how the Brewers broadcast (live broadcast) Kevin Mench's first arrival at Miller Park during a game and walking to the clubhouse and having the announcers hype him like he was going to be a star player for years to come? Fast forward to the end of the following season, and if I remember right, the Brewers don't even offer Mench arbitration and he ends up signing a minor league deal with the Rangers.

[Point Beer Is Best]

I don't know if I would call him a big disappointment, because I'm not sure how many fans thought he was that good at the time. But remember how the Brewers broadcast (live broadcast) Kevin Mench's first arrival at Miller Park during a game and walking to the clubhouse and having the announcers hype him like he was going to be a star player for years to come? Fast forward to the end of the following season, and if I remember right, the Brewers don't even offer Mench arbitration and he ends up signing a minor league deal with the Rangers.

 

Mench received a WWE-style introduction. I think part of that was he was a piece of the return package in exchange for arguably the most-loved player on the team at the time (Carlos Lee) and they needed to hype him up as an adequate replacement at LF.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Rickie Weeks and Ben Sheets? Those guys are on an all-time failed expectations team? I'm thinking about guys like Angel Salome.

[MrTPlush]

Rickie Weeks and Ben Sheets? Those guys are on an all-time failed expectations team? I'm thinking about guys like Angel Salome.

 

I mean Rickie Weeks was essentially suppose to be what Hiura is with speed/SBs. While I think he was still a solid contributor (especially before injuries destroyed him)...that is a far cry from what people expected.

 

Ben Sheets....yah, tough crowd.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Weeks is a 12 WAR player for his career, made an all-star team (should have made at least two), notched 1k hits and lasted in the majors for a decade. He was a cog on two Brewers playoff teams. I personally never liked him all that much as a player and found him maddening to watch at the plate. But 66% of first-round picks never play in the majors. If that is the bar then our whole franchise history could be on this team besides like 10 guys.

[Jopal78]

You guys are listing the wrong players:

 

Lewis Brinson:

 

Got us Yelich so cant say he ever got a chance to show us what he can do.

 

Jonathan Villar:

 

Pretty sure people didn’t expect much.

 

Jonathan Schoop:

 

I guess you could put him, but most hated that trade. So not sure he really failed expectations that much.

 

 

We need the true high expectation flops! I haven’t watch the Brewers terribly long though so getting past the flops of Mark Rogers, Angel Salome, and Manny Parra would be kinda tough. I’d guess most on the all-time list should be guys who were on the MLB team or got close. Flopped draft pick from the get go can only have so many expectations to start.

 

 

Well, Jed Bradley and Taylor Jungmann we’re first round picks. Teams don’t draft starting pitchers in the top third of the first round with merely the hope they make it to the majors. The expectations are those pitchers will advance to the major leagues and pitch meaningful innings. That Bradley and Jungmann were complete busts resulted in the team making moves like signing Matt Garza and trading for Chase Anderson, for example, to shore up their rotation.

[MrTPlush]

You guys are listing the wrong players:

 

Lewis Brinson:

 

Got us Yelich so cant say he ever got a chance to show us what he can do.

 

Jonathan Villar:

 

Pretty sure people didn’t expect much.

 

Jonathan Schoop:

 

I guess you could put him, but most hated that trade. So not sure he really failed expectations that much.

 

 

We need the true high expectation flops! I haven’t watch the Brewers terribly long though so getting past the flops of Mark Rogers, Angel Salome, and Manny Parra would be kinda tough. I’d guess most on the all-time list should be guys who were on the MLB team or got close. Flopped draft pick from the get go can only have so many expectations to start.

 

 

Well, Jed Bradley and Taylor Jungmann we’re first round picks. Teams don’t draft starting pitchers in the top third of the first round with merely the hope they make it to the majors. The expectations are those pitchers will advance to the major leagues and pitch meaningful innings. That Bradley and Jungmann were complete busts resulted in the team making moves like signing Matt Garza and trading for Chase Anderson, for example, to shore up their rotation.

 

Jed Bradley was just an awful pick. He was not top half of the first round material. Taylor Jungmann was pretty similar in a guy who really didn't have much of a ceiling. I remember one outlet calling him #2 potential, but most people thought we took two mid-rotation at best arms. If I was picking draft busts neither of these guys would be near the top of my list. More like a total bust for whoever picked them. Which if I recall was partially influenced by Attanasio wanting to "win now" and get guys they thought could get to the MLB level fast.

 

Also the Chase Anderson trade was fantastic. He has already compiled 7.5 WAR as a Brewer. Not mention it also netted Isan Diaz (traded to get Yelich) and Aaron Hill...who was later traded to acquire Aaron Wilkerson. Not bad for a player we were essentially just trying to move on from in Jean Segura.

[Jopal78]

I wasn't denigrating Chase Anderson. Rather he was acquired to fill a hole in the rotation as a result of Bradley and Jungmann being busts. If those pitchers would have advanced to the major leagues and pitched meaningful innings for the Brewers, they wouldn't have needed to acquire Anderson or sign Garza, etc.

[OnTheBlack]

SP: Mark Rogers. 5th overall pick in ‘04. Arm injuries early and often.

SP: Taylor Jungmann 12th overall in ‘11. Never developed command. Bust

SP: Jed Bradley 15th overall in ‘11. Bust. Never appeared for Brewers

(You could certainly put Burnes and Peralta in place of Bradley and Jungmann).

 

C: Andrew Susac. 1st round pedigree. Blocked behind Posey. Bust

1B: Mat Gamel. Top prospect, injured knee, never recovered

2B: Rickie Weeks. Never lived up to star billing but was ok player

SS: Jonathon Villar: First season with Brewers was a fluke

3B: Haven’t had an everyday one for more than a couple years since Cirillo so hard to say.

LF: Marc Newfield.

CF: Marquis Grissom: solid player before and after being a Brewer. 3 of the worst seasons in career occurred as a Brewer.

RF: Jeffrey Hammonds.

 

Reliever: Nathan Kirby. First round pick, blew out elbow after just five appearances in minors. Missed all of ‘16, ‘17 and has yet to pitch in ‘19

 

You certainly could not. I don't know how you take two guys, a 24 year old who excelled for the Brewers last year and in the post-season and a guy who just recently turned 23 years old and has an FIP of 3.94 and declare them "all time Failed expectations team."

 

Of course I also wouldn't go with anyone who was simply drafted high as the "bust rate" is so absurdly high that every team would have probably dozens of pitchers to choose from. Neugherbauer had far higher expectations, Jones had higher expectations. Kenny Felder, Williamson a top 5 pick, JM Gold...all these guys would and many-MANY more would fit this bill.

[OnTheBlack]

Rickie Weeks and Ben Sheets? Those guys are on an all-time failed expectations team? I'm thinking about guys like Angel Salome.

 

 

Salome would be a great pick IMO.

 

I'd think it'd be guys who A-Weren't productive players for multiple years, B-players who are still extremely young and have simply struggled and C-Guys who failed because of injury. Though I'd imagine there'd be a great deal of disagreement on that last one.

 

I'd implore people who are listing Ben Sheets for example...or even Weeks for that matter to just go to Baseball reference and look at a year by year sampling of 1st round picks.

 

You can also see how much recency bias there is with some of these names as well. Some of them are akin to listing the Packers biggest OL busts and going with Jason Spriggs instead of Tony Mandrich.

 

But these are all subjective. I guess I wouldn't put a pitcher who should have or COULD have won a Cy Young award and put up arguably the best single season in Brewers history or a 2nd basemen who hit for power, got on base and just DIDN'T become an MVP type player, nor would I put up guys with ~1 year of service time.

 

I just don't think it's fair to say young players who've struggled are two of the most disappointing players in the history of the franchise.

 

 

As for guys like Lewis Brinson, not sure I'd say he'd qualify for this list, but if he does, then David Green for example certainly does. I mean, prospects have value in two ways. To produce for your team or to provide talent via trades. One prospect helped bring back a HOF caliber catcher(Simmons) and a HOF reliever in Fingers(with whom we likely win the '82 World Series) while the other helped bring back an MVP and a guy who's probably had the best year and a half in Brewers history outside of maybe Yount in '82.

[bork]

How about most of the first round draft picks in the 90's?

Kenny Felder

Jeff D'Amico - Never could stay healthy

Antone Williamson

Chad Green

JM Gold

[OnTheBlack]

You guys are listing the wrong players:

 

Lewis Brinson:

 

Got us Yelich so cant say he ever got a chance to show us what he can do.

 

Jonathan Villar:

 

Pretty sure people didn’t expect much.

 

Jonathan Schoop:

 

I guess you could put him, but most hated that trade. So not sure he really failed expectations that much.

 

 

We need the true high expectation flops! I haven’t watch the Brewers terribly long though so getting past the flops of Mark Rogers, Angel Salome, and Manny Parra would be kinda tough. I’d guess most on the all-time list should be guys who were on the MLB team or got close. Flopped draft pick from the get go can only have so many expectations to start.

 

 

Well, Jed Bradley and Taylor Jungmann we’re first round picks. Teams don’t draft starting pitchers in the top third of the first round with merely the hope they make it to the majors. The expectations are those pitchers will advance to the major leagues and pitch meaningful innings. That Bradley and Jungmann were complete busts resulted in the team making moves like signing Matt Garza and trading for Chase Anderson, for example, to shore up their rotation.

 

Jed Bradley was just an awful pick. He was not top half of the first round material. Taylor Jungmann was pretty similar in a guy who really didn't have much of a ceiling. I remember one outlet calling him #2 potential, but most people thought we took two mid-rotation at best arms. If I was picking draft busts neither of these guys would be near the top of my list. More like a total bust for whoever picked them. Which if I recall was partially influenced by Attanasio wanting to "win now" and get guys they thought could get to the MLB level fast.

 

Also the Chase Anderson trade was fantastic. He has already compiled 7.5 WAR as a Brewer. Not mention it also netted Isan Diaz (traded to get Yelich) and Aaron Hill...who was later traded to acquire Aaron Wilkerson. Not bad for a player we were essentially just trying to move on from in Jean Segura.

 

Agree with you 100 pct on the Chase Anderson trade. His biggest fault is that he HASN'T been a TOR type arm, but he was really never expected to be. I really liked Segura and wished we hadn't given up on him, but at the time, it made sense and as you pointed out, Diaz was a huge part of the Yelich trade and even Aaron Hill was productive with the Brewers before being flipped(As a rental) for Rijo and Wilkerson.

 

I don't really agree with your stance on Jungman or Bradley. Many had Bradley as a top 10 pick, someone who'd be gone before we got to him, and Jungman was an elite, dominant college pitcher for Texas. And actually both were projected to go right where they went if not higher.

 

I believe the fan bases biggest issue with each selection was that they didn't select Jose Fernandez or Sonny Gray who were more well liked. But I don't believe either were the reaches that they've been portrayed. I really think both are just a result of the level of uncertainty in the MLB draft. Did Attanasio's desire to pick pitchers who were more MLB ready play into it? I don't know, but I do know they picked Covey the year before(why they had the Bradley pick), the following two years they picked one college player(Roache) and three HS prospects with their top picks. So perhaps that year they were in fact drafting for need, but based on virtually every site that previewed the draft, Jungmann and Bradley were both drafted in the area's in which they were projected to go.

[OnTheBlack]

How about most of the first round draft picks in the 90's?

Kenny Felder

Jeff D'Amico - Never could stay healthy

Antone Williamson

Chad Green

JM Gold

 

 

There's really a gold mine of guys from the 90's and early 2000's.

 

I always remember Felder being one of the biggest busts, but in my memory he was picked higher than 12th and then looking at his stats, it's a little confusing why he was done so quickly. I don't remember if it was injury, but he advanced one level at a time and was productive in HiA, really productive in AA and then struggled in AAA and was done.

 

The pitching the Brewers were developing around the late 90's, early 2000's was such an enormous disappointment. Nick Neugabauer looked like a future ace...but like so many others, injuries just doomed him. Later on Rogers always seemed like a huge risk, but he had great stuff and Jones was another guy who looked like a future ace before the injures set in. Still, at least we developed Sheets and got a pretty good run from him. Still the best home grown pitcher since Teddy Higura.

[Jopal78]

You certainly could not. I don't know how you take two guys, a 24 year old who excelled for the Brewers last year and in the post-season and a guy who just recently turned 23 years old and has an FIP of 3.94 and declare them "all time Failed expectations team."

 

Of course I also wouldn't go with anyone who was simply drafted high as the "bust rate" is so absurdly high that every team would have probably dozens of pitchers to choose from. Neugherbauer had far higher expectations, Jones had higher expectations. Kenny Felder, Williamson a top 5 pick, JM Gold...all these guys would and many-MANY more would fit this bill.

 

The subject is "failed expectations". You can't possibly suggest that Burnes and Peralta haven't failed their expectations in a major way? The front office carried out their offseason plan expecting Burnes and Peralta to step into the rotation. That is why they didn't resign Miley, that is why they didn't try to acquire any starting pitching in the off season. Their inability to pitch effectively in the rotation resulted in a chain reaction and is certainly one reason the team is where it is right now.

 

In terms of being an "All Time Failure", the 2019 Brewers are the defending Division Champions and had the best record in their league last season. Even if they suddenly and magically started winning again at a .589 clip, that would put them around 87-88 wins. The reality is they'll more likely than not finish around 83-79, an incredible tumble from 2018 and despite returning almost every key contributor from the 96 win team. With Peralta and Burnes' struggles being one of the main components of this collapse, I would say that is an all time failure even for this team which is mostly known for futility.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

Dan Thomas

Joey Meyer

Kenny Felder

JM Gold