Hall of Fame Trial - Ted Simmons

[Bucky Rules]

I hate the fact that I end up having to sound like I'm bashing Ted Simmons in order to make the point that I don't think he was as good as Carlton Fisk. I loved Simba. The guy always looked like he was drunk, but always sounded like a college professor. He and Sidney Moncrief were probably my two favorite interviews of all the local athletes. I just can't buy what you're selling. If two guys are comparable hitters at a prominent defensive position such as Catcher, I'll take the defensive guy every time. So, if I'd rather have Fisk on my team, it only stands to reason that if I had to choose one over the other for the HOF, I'd take Fisk.

[danzig6767]

I voted no on him because I think he was a compiler who never dominated,

 

Players have to be judged against their peers in regards to the position they played.How many catchers dominate?

 

As a catcher Simmons put up numbers that are better than most catchers that ever played the game.You get a catcher who regularily is putting up way above average numbers for that position all while playing in pitchers parks,that's a rarity,unlike big hitting firstbaseman or outfielders.

 

I'd put Simmons in,although i dont think it's a major injustice he's not in.It's a close call,but i just think Simmons was very underrated.

[Bucky Rules]

Danzig -- I don't disagree with any of that. And I too, would have no problem if the HOF brought Simmons in. I just can't buy the argument that he's better than Fisk, so he should be in. Taking that logic (RBM's) to an extreme would suggest that any SS with better numbers than Ozzie or any 3B with better numbers than Brooks, should be in. I have a problem with that.

[splitterpfj]

Simmons is at 65% yes in the poll through 20 votes. Come on yes guys.........wake your friends and neighbors.

[RoseBowlMtg]

BUCKYRULES!!!! states:

 

But, I do find it funny that I suggest you look at year to year OPS, and you ignore that and move right on to BARISP... that's very telling to me. Based on the debating tactics I've seen from you so far, my guess is that OPS figures don't support your argument.

 

Let's look at OPS+ on the head to head years and see who had the better numbers:

 

.....Fisk..Simba

72:..162..127 (1-0)

73:..105..124 (1-1)

74:..159..117 (2-1)

75:..150..142 (3-1) Oh Oh Buckyrules might be right.

76:..109..117 (3-2)

77:..139..145 (3-3)

78:..126..148 (3-4)

79:..96....136 (3-5)

80:..119..142 (3-6) The end of the Red Sox/Cards years:

81:..109..87 (4-6)

82:..103..112 (4-7)

83:..134..127 (5-7)

84:..102..61 (6-7)

85:..115..112 (7-7)

 

And just so I don't get accused of picking selective years:

 

Career..117...118

 

So to look at OPS+ it would look like Fisk and Simmons were pretty even but does a high OPS+ always signify the better year? Let's look at the years Fisk had a higher OPS+

 

1972: 162 v 127. Looks like a blowout:

.........ave..hits..2B..3B..HR's.. RBI..TB

Fisk...293..134..28..9...22.......61...246

Simba..303.180..36..6..16......96....276

 

.............runs...HR's..

Boston: 640......124

Cards:....543.....75

 

Sox teammates RBI's:

1: Petrocelli: 75

2: Reggie Smith: 74

3: Yaz: 68

4: Fisk: 61

 

Cards teammates RBI's:

1: Simmoms: 91

2: Torre: 69

3: Brock: 63

4: Cruz: 57

 

Does this really look like a 162 v 127 year? The Cards scored 97 fewer runs and Simmons knocked in 75 teammates vs 39. We saw earlier the risp #'s so I'd hate to repeat myself.

 

1974:159 v 117

.........ave..hits..2B..3B..HR's.. RBI..TB

Fisk:...299..56..12..1......11......26...103

Simba: .272.163..33..6...20.....103....268

 

Now this is a tough argument to say that OPS+ tells the total picture. I won't go into detail on this one but Fisk had an inflated OPS+ since he was injured but no one could possibly say Fisk had a better year could they?

 

1975: 150 v 142

...........ave..hits..2B..3B..HR's.. RBI..TB

Fisk:...331..87..14..4....10....52....139

Simba:.332.193..32..3..20....100...285

 

See 1974:

Sox teammates RBI's

1: Lynn 105

2: Rice 102

3: Burlson 62

4: Yaz: 60

5: Petrocelli: 59

6: Evans: 56

7: Fisk: 52

 

Cards teammates RBI's

1: Simba 100

2: Smith 76

3: Sizemore 49

 

Can you see why I brought up IBB earlier?

 

Up to now summation: Fisk was the rookie of the year in 72 and that was the only year that the OPS+ was higher where he had a decent year while the other two were no where close to being better than Simmons. If I give you 72 (which I don't think is right) Simmons had a higher OPS+ 7 out of the 10 Sox/Cards years and 74 and 75 are a joke. 9 out of 10 for Simmons for the people who want to look at OPS+. Let's move on:

 

1981: Do we have a pattern here? The strike year: 109 v 87

...........ave..hits..2B..3B..HR's.. RBI..TB

Fisk:....263...89...12..0....7........45....122

Simba:..216...82...13..3..14.......61....143

 

OPS+ says Fisk but production shows Simmons. I just think the guy who has 30 XBH and 61 RBI's had a better year than 19 XBH and 45 RBI's. Not good years for both but at least Simmons produced with his fewer hits

 

1983: 134 v 127 A close one:

...........ave..hits..2B..3B..HR's.. RBI..TB

Fisk:....289...141..26..4...26......86....253

Simba: .308..185..39..3..13..108.....243

 

This is the argument: HR's vs RBI's. The HR's increased the slugging for Fisk but he knocked in 60 teammates to Simmons 95. 44 more hits! Fisk came in 3rd in the AL MVP voting but did he have a better year than Simmons? One's who argue HR's are the get all say Fisk and one's who look at runs say Simmons.

 

1984: 102 v 61

...........ave..hits..2B..3B..HR's.. RBI..TB

Fisk: .231....83...20..1......21......43....168

Simba: .221..110..23..2...4.........52.....149

 

In a horrible year for both Simmons knocked in 48 teammates to Fisk's 22. HR's v RBI's. OPS+ slants HR's runs win games.

 

1985: 115 v 103

...........ave..hits..2B..3B..HR's.. RBI..TB

Fisk: .238...129...23..1...37.....107....265

Simba: .273..144..28..2..12.....76......212

 

A year where the OPS+ showed who had the better year. That would be the only clear correct OPS+ reading during the 14 Fisk/Simmons head to head years. We know Fisk continued to play and play and play until he beat Bob Boone's game's caught record by catching one inning the last 13 games but remember the career OPS+ totals: Fisk 117 Simmons 118.

 

BUCKYRULES!!! great name to repeat myself RoseBowlMtg has responded to this: "But, I do find it funny that I suggest you look at year to year OPS, and you ignore that and move right on to BARISP... that's very telling to me. Based on the debating tactics I've seen from you so far, my guess is that OPS figures don't support your argument."

 

I guess it does support my argument. Does it convince you any differently?

[RoseBowlMtg]

Let's take a look at how well OPS+ shows production.

 

 

72: 162: .293, 22, 61&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 78: 148: .287, 22, 80&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

74: 159: .299, 11, 26&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 77: 145: .318, 21, 95

75: 150: .331, 10, 52&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 80: 142: .303, 21, 98&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

77: 139: .315, 26, 102&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 75: 142: .332, 18, 100&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

83: 134: .289, 26, 86&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 79: 136: .283, 26, 87

79: 126: .304, 10, 42&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 72: 127: .303, 16, 96

80: 119: .289, 18, 62&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 83: 127: .308, 13, 108

85: 115: .238, 37, 107&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 73: 124: .310, 13, 91

76: 109: .255, 17, 58&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 74: 117: .272, 20, 103

81: 109: .263, 7, 45&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 76: 117: .291, 5, 75

73: 105: .246, 26, 71&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 82: 112: .269, 23, 97

82: 103: .267. 14, 65&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 85: 103: .273, 12, 76

84: 102: .231, 21, 43&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 81: 87: ..216, 14, 61

79: 96: .272, 10, 42&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 84: 61: ..221, 4, 52

 

 

No one will say that Fisk's 74 and 75 seasons were his best.

 

Now let's eliminate the years where they didn't have more than 65 RBI's:

 

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 78: 148: .287, 22, 80&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 77: 145: .318, 21, 95

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 80: 142: .303, 21, 98&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

77: 139: .315, 26, 102&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 75: 142: .332, 18, 100&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

83: 134: .289, 26, 86&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 79: 136: .283, 26, 87

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 72: 127: .303, 16, 96

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 83: 127: .308, 13, 108

85: 115: .238, 37, 107&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 73: 124: .310, 13, 91

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 74: 117: .272, 20, 103

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 76: 117: .291, 5, 75

73: 105: .246, 26, 71&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 82: 112: .269, 23, 97

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 85: 103: .273, 12, 76

 

OPS+ does actually give a pretty good look at Simmons production but the fault with it is it doesn't look at production for the year and no way is a 26 RBI year better than a 107 for Fisk.

 

OPS+ debate open for discussion:

 

BUCKYRULES: RoseBowlMtg's all time favorite hoops player in Sidney Moncrief. I was at the game in Fayetteville when he stole the inbound pass vs Texas near half court and went for the game winning jam captured on the cover of SI. Classy great man!

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[RoseBowlMtg]

"But, I do find it funny that I suggest you look at year to year OPS, and you ignore that and move right on to BARISP... that's very telling to me. Based on the debating tactics I've seen from you so far, my guess is that OPS figures don't support your argument."

 

 

BUCKYRULES: 6 days til Opening Day: You asked: I responded: Are we debating?

[bando1234]

Quote:

---

You quoted fielding % numbers as if that is some sort of complete analysis of a catcher's defensive ability. Please. If you can find one credible person anywhere (in print) to claim that Simmons was comparable defensively to Fisk, I will give up this argument. You won't, because anyone with any credibility knows that there was no comparison. Fisk was very good. Simmons was average to below average.

---

 

 

We have established that he leads all catchers in hits & doubles(at last look). He has driven in more runs than any catcher except Bench & Berra. He his in the top ten in catchers in runs scored,walks & extra base hits.

 

We have also established that his fielding % was close to Fisks & that Simmons could call a good game

 

Now this could just be another meaningless stat but reading a study by Bill Deane(ok, I raelly dont konw who Bill Deane is but here we go) he suggests that Simmons defense was not as bad suggested.This is in know way saying he is better than Fisk defensively(by the way I dont have Fisks numbers). Just some numbers to throw out their.

 

This study focuses on stolen bases & caught stealing in each game. What he did was:

 

1. Focus on complete games caught by Simmons(1577 games)

 

2.Figure out season by season the number of stolen bases in those games.

 

3Count the number of opponents caught stealing in those games.

 

4.Compare that to the "expected" number of stolen bases & opponents caught stealing against Simmons, based on the performance of the opposition team for the season as a whole.

 

His conclusion : the opposition did attempt to steal more bases against him but the were not particulary successful.

 

Stolen Bases Caught Stealing

Simmons 1098 590

Opposition 1006 530

 

The difference favors Simmons teams since Simmons throut out % was slighty above average 35% (compares to 34.5% of his opponents)The opponents an extra 92 bases but were thrown out an extra 60 times.

 

My concluson: while offense was above average especially for a catcher, his defense by no means was so bad to keep him out of the Hall.

 

I am kind of surprised no one comparred Simmons to Gary Carter whom played in mainly the same era.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Bando1234 states so well:

 

 

My concluson: while offense was above average especially for a catcher, his defense by no means was so bad to keep him out of the Hall.

 

I am kind of surprised no one comparred Simmons to Gary Carter whom played in mainly the same era.

 

 

To say Simmons should not be in the HOF because of defense ignores completely his rapport with pitchers and the success they had with him. All position players didn't have this opportunity nor did other catchers excel the way Simba did.

 

I could compare Simmons to all of them and it would show you what kind of joke this omission was, To compare to Fisk shows how skewed the entire results were. When Carter didn't get in he compared his stats to Fisk stating he should be in with comparison but he no way would compare them with Simmons.

 

Check this out:

 

 

The HOF catchers stats and Simba's:

 

 

..........AVG OBP SLG HITS HR RBI RUNS

Bench .267 .345 .476 2,048 389 1,376 1,091

Berra .285 .350 .482 2,150 358 1,430 1,175

Bresnahan .279 .386 .377 1,252 26 530 682

Campanella .276 .362 .500 1,161 242 856 627

Carter .262 .335 .439 2,092 324 1,225 1,025

Cochrane .320 .419 .478 1,652 119 832 1,041

Dickey .313 .382 .486 1,969 202 1,209 930

Ewing .303 .351 .456 1,625 71 883 1,129

Ferrell .281 .378 .363 1,692 28 734 687

Fisk .269 .343 .457 2,356 376 1,330 1,276

Hartnett .297 .370 .489 1,912 236 1,179 867

Lombardi .306 .358 .460 1,792 190 990 601 Schalk .253 .340 .316 1,345 11 594 579

 

Simmons .285 .348 437 2472 248 1389 1074

 

If you want to rank them 1-14 per categories:

 

......AVE OBP SLG HITS HR RBI

Bench 12,11,6,5,1,3, 38 pts (6th)

Berra 6,9,4,3,2,1, 26 pts (1st)

Bresnahan 9,2,12,13,13,14, 59 pts (13th)

Campy 10,6,1,14,4,5, 47 pts (10)

Carter 13,14,10,4,4,5, 40 pts (8th)

Cochrane 1,1,5,4,10,11, 32 pts (3rd)

Dickey 2,3,3,6,8,6, 28 pts (2nd)

Ewing 4,8,9,10,11,9, 51 pts (11th)

Ferrell 8,4,13,7,12,12, 56 pts (12th)

Fisk 11,12,8,2,2,4, 39 pts (7th)

Hartnett 5,5,2,8,7,7, 34 pts (4th)

Lombardi 3,7,7,9,9,8 43 pts (9th)

Schalk 14,13,14,13,14,13, (Last)

 

Simmons 6,10,11,1,5,2 35 pts (5th)

 

This kind of rating doesn't say all but it does say plenty when you look into it. 1-4 are from a live ball era and Simmons ranks higher than his contemporaries. If you want to rate the importance of certain stats I always think RBI's are more important than HR's . Hartnett having 210 fewer RBI's than Simmons with basically the same number of HR's. It would be interesting if someone adjusted these numbers per the times they played. For another day I guess.

 

The question does Simmons belong in the HOF. Undeniably YES!

[splitterpfj]

Bando1234 mentioned a comparison to Gary Carter, if you read back through this thread, you'll see I compared Simmons to a group of HOF catchers, Carter was in the group.

 

If you were asking about a defensive comparison between Carter and Simmons, I do not have those numbers, offensively, per season, here they are........

 

R Hits 2B 3B HR RBI SB AVE OPS

72 148 26 2 23 86 3 .262 .774 Carter

71 163 32 3 16 92 1 .285 .785 Simmons

 

Offensively, this is not close. Simmons is all over Carter, with the exception of home runs. Homers are the glamor stat, Carter played on a World Series winner in New York, the writers barely gave Simmons a look.

 

Yes, Carter hit more home runs than Simmons, but look at the total extra base hits- 51 per year, for both players.........Simmons had a much higher average, a better OPS, and produced more runs for his team.

[Member]

Here we go... my $0.02 (plus change):

 

TED SIMMONS

21 Years, three teams (Saint Louis, Milwaukee, Atlanta).

 

GP AB R H DO-TR-HR RBI BB SO SB-CS AVG SLG OBP OPS

---------------------------------------------------------------------

2456 8680 1074 2472 483-47-248 1389 855 694 21-33 .285 .437 .348 .785

 

HOF Eligibility: Ineligible (last on ballot in 1994; 17 of 456 votes, 3.7% - removed from ballot in 1995)

All-Star Games: Eight games (1972-74, 1977-79, 1981, 1983).

Awards: 1980 NL Silver Slugger (Catcher); No MVP awards; 3 top 10 MVP vote finishes (1972, 1975, 1977)

Black Ink: 0 (Times led league in various categories; average HOFer scores about 40).

Gray Ink: 95 (Times among leaders in various categories; average HOFer scores about 185).

HOFS: 44.5 under the basic HOFS method; 48.3 under the modified method; average HOFer scores 49.4.

HOFCM: 124.5 (Likely HOFer scores above 100; certain HOFer scores 130 or more).

Most Similar Player: Alan Trammell (828 pts) ; a score of 950 or better indicates a large degree of similarity between two players' career totals.

HOF in top 10 most Similar Players: Five (though only two are catchers) - Carlton Fisk (819), Gary Carter (811), Joe Cronin (803), Ryne Sandberg (789) and Bobby Doerr (787). Joe Torre (816) is his third most comparable player, and probably should be in the HOF.

Post-season: All of them with the Brewers, amazingly. 17 games, 11-59, 3 HR, 8 RBI, .279 OBP, .356 SLG, .635 OPS. Brewers won only the ALCS, where he was 3-18 with 1 RBI and no XBH.

 

THE KELTNER LIST

Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball? The argument never was that he was the best player in baseball; best catcher, maybe ? after Bench and Carter.

 

Was he the best player on his team? While he was a Cardinal, he was one of the best ? though they had Lou Brock at the time. When he was with the Brewers, Robin Yount was "the Man". When he was with the Braves, it was Dale Murphy. So the answer is no.

 

Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position? The argument always went that Simmons was slightly better than Bench, especially after the Big Red Machine tumbled in 1977. After 1981, Gary Carter took on the mantle of "best catcher in the NL".

 

Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races? Boy, other than the 1981 and 1982 pennant races with the Brewers, he didn't have much of a chance. He played for some second-place teams in 1971, 1973 and 1974, but in each of those years, he wasn't even the best player on his team ('71 was Torre, and '73-74 was Brock).

Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime? He managed to hang on for three unspectacular seasons at the end of his career with the Braves. He was a replacement-level catcher by the time he was through in 1988 (in fact, Ozzie Virgil replaced him behind the plate in Atlanta).

 

Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame? No, because his name is not Barry Lamar Bonds.

 

Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame? The fact that he is comparable to only two catchers should say something. That both of those catchers happen to be near contemporaries suggests that he was right there with those players; however, he is not comparable to the one player who Carter and Fisk have as their #1 comp: Johnny Bench.

 

Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? The HOFS total of 42-44 suggests that he wouldn't be a bad choice. He is just a shade under Bench in that regard, and just a bit better than Torre and Carter. The CM total indicates he wouldn't be a bad choice, as he is a qualified candidate.

 

Is there any evidence to suggest that he was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics? For the time he was in Saint Louis, Busch Stadium was pretty much a neutral park for hitters. County Stadium was always very anti-hitting (Harvey's Wallbangers non-withstanding; the Batting PF for MCS was 95.4 over the five years he was in Milwaukee). Fulton County Stadium was a launching pad for his three years there, so his meager power numbers there can be discounted somewhat. Unfortunately, that means that he really wasn't doing that well once he left Brew town.

 

Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in? Right now, that player is his former teammate, Joe Torre. But Torre's eligibility is in the hands of the Veterans Committee, and they have refused to elect anyone in the last two votes.

 

How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close? If you follow his Award Share totals, his best overall year was 1975. That year, though, he wasn't even considered the best catcher in the National League (Bench finished 4th in the MVP vote, while Simmons was 6th). He has those seven apperances in the top 20 in MVP voting, but doesn't even crack the top 200 in career win shares (0.68 ? not even a full award share).

 

How many All-Star type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame? He played in eight All-Star games, with only two of them as a Brewer. From 1971-1980, Johnny Bench was essentially the All-Star starter for the NL, and six out of the ten seasons, Simmons was the other catcher for the NL. Carter was the other catcher twice (in 1979, all three were All-Stars). Joe Torre was the other catcher in 1971; Steve Swisher was the anomaly in 1976.

 

If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant? He wasn't the best player on his team at any point in his career, though he was considered a big part of the '81 pennant winner in Milwaukee. I'd be more certain of the answer to this question if it was Joe Torre (whom he replaced as the Cards starting catcher) or Carter we were talking about.

 

What impact did he have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? He discovered ? too late, I think ? that there was a definite advantage to playing in the American League, where he could DH. It might have been that move to Atlanta that showed others how unwise it was. Other than that, I don't think he did much.

 

Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider? Ted wasn't exactly the most personable guy in the world, from all accounts. The talk was that Herzog dumped him off on the Brewers because he had a rep as a "clubhouse lawyer" with the Cards ? thinking that he knew more than the GM/Manager. I haven't heard what he's been doing since leaving the majors, so I can't say yea or nay about his post-baseball life.

 

And now, the big question:

 

Is he a likely Hall of Famer?

He's not eligible, unless they liberalize the HOF voting requirements for the Veterans Committee. Even then, I think people would rather see Torre in the Hall before him.

 

If I had a chance to vote for him, I wouldn't ? sorry, Simba.

[splitterpfj]

Have to disagree on Torre. I think Simmons was better in the first place, and Joe played a good portion of his career at third base.

 

Great post though.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Wow some very interesting info there then to hear at the end that he had no idea what Simmons did after says a lot about the Keltner list. GM at Pittsburgh and how about farm director for the Padres.

 

Simmons didn't think they should worsen two positions when Herzog came over by putting him at first and Hernandez in left. Simmons was right.

 

Simmons was voted captain of the '81 Brewers team that Keltner didn't seem to factor in with all that talent his teammates voted him captain so quickly after arriving. Respect!

 

Lou Brock was a great leadoff hitter and in 73 and 74 let's compare the stats:

 

.............ave...HR....RBI

73: Brock: .297 7 63

Simmons: .310 13 91 2nd place in ribbies "Torre" with 69

 

74: Brock: .306 3 48

Simmons: .272 20 103

 

Brock stole bases and Simmons led his team in ribbies 7 straight years which according to Keltner doesn't mean he was the best on his team.

 

In 73 the Cards were 1 game back in second place and in 74 they were 2 back also in second place.

 

Keltner's justification of not getting MVP votes just showed how little people knew about him. In 83 Fisk came in 3rd in the MVP voting with inferior numbers to Simmons so that was just wrong.

 

 

Very interesting take but way too many holes. Very in dept.

[RoseBowlMtg]

jwhouk went into so much detail it raised some ?'s to me:

 

All-Star Games: Eight games (1972-74, 1977-79, 1981, 1983).

Awards:

 

1980 NL Silver Slugger (Catcher); No MVP awards; 3 top 10 MVP vote finishes (1972, 1975, 1977)

 

 

By looking at this it made me wonder: If Simmons missed the All-Star game in 75 but was top 10 in MVP voting why wasn't he an All-Star?

 

The next year Simmons missed being an All-Star was in 1980 when he won the NL Silver Slugger award.

 

So from 72-80 in the NL Simba missed two All-Star games but won post season awards. Hmmmm? How come:

 

Your 1975 NL All-Stars: Catchers:

 

Bench: .283 28 110 Cincy 1st place (Well deserved)

Carter: .270 17 68 Montreal last place (Only Mon selection)

Sanguillan .328 9 58 Pitt (good year)

 

Now Simmons was an All-Star the two previous years so what happened in 75?

Simmons .332 18 100

 

It's obvious Simmons had a better year than Carter and Manny.

 

Because Montreal needed one player in Simmons didn't make the All-Star team which goes against his career record because Carter made it and Simba didn't. That is why the All-Star selection is at times misleading.

 

Let's look at the next year Simmons didn't make the All-Star team:

 

1980 NL All-Star Catchers

 

Bench .250 24 68 (reputation)

Carter .264 29 101(good yr only Expo)

Stearns .285 0-45 (Only Met)

 

Simmons .303 21-98 Didn't make it because they selected Stearns as the only Met and Bench on reputation. Carter had a good yr but he was also an only player selected from his team. Simmons won the Silver Slugger for catchers in 80 but gets dissed for not being an All-Star. Bad barometer imo.

 

Since starting at the beginning of the season in 72 Simmons missed only two All-Star games but has won the Silver Slugger for his position and had an incredible year in 75 where the Reds flooded the ballot boxes and Simba got left off vs inferior years by Carter and Manny.

 

Next miss was 1982:

 

AL All-Star catchers:

 

Fisk .267 14 65 (Only White Sox)

Parrish .286 24 82 (Only Tiger)

 

Simmons .297 23 97 World Series, Cy Young award winning pitcher and fireman of the year. Voted Captain.

 

Fisk gets All-Star game credit and Simmons doesn't.

 

I know All-Star games aren't selected by the end of the year stats but if you look at Simmons career he played consistently without many injuries so from 72-83 he was worthy of being selected an All-Star every year.

 

Any stat to prop up Fisk and Carter and downgrade Simmons when Simmons outperformed them is flawed.

 

Onto more detail later:

[RoseBowlMtg]

Let's look at this:

 

Was he the best player on his team? While he was a Cardinal, he was one of the best ? though they had Lou Brock at the time. When he was with the Brewers, Robin Yount was "the Man". When he was with the Braves, it was Dale Murphy. So the answer is no.

 

 

Was he the best in St.Louis? That seems to be getting not much of a look.

 

Let me ask you this. Is Carlos Lee having the best year of any Brewer this year?

 

Sounds a bit rhetorical doesn't it?

 

Lee: .267-30-100

Jenkins: .284-20-72

Overbay: .273-16-64

 

Lee is the best Brewer this year. So if that is true let's see if Simmons should get more than a passing glance if he was the best player in St. Louis

 

1972:

Simmons: .303-16-96

Torre: .289-11-81

Brock .311-3-42

Sizemore: .264-2-38

 

Torre was better in 71 when he was .36.-24-137 but not 72.

 

1973:

Simmons: .310-13-91

Torre: .287-13-69

Brock: .297-7-63

Cruz .227-10-57

 

Is a leadoff hitter definitively better than the run producer. That can be argued but Simmons was the top run producer again.

 

1974:

Simmons: .272-20-103

Smith: .309-23-100

Torre: .282-11-70

Brock: .306-3-48

 

At least Simba had someone producing with him.

 

1975:

Simmons .332-18-100

Smith: .302-19-76

Reitz: .269-5-63

Sizemore: .240-3-49

 

It would be tough to argue that Simmons wasn't the best this year wouldn't it?

 

1976:

Simmons: .291-5-75

Cruz: .228-13-71

Brock: .301-4-67

Crawford: (Who?) .304-9-50

 

5th straight years being the best producer? Any credit?

 

1977:

Simmons: .318-21-95

Hernandez: .291-15-91

Reitz: .261-17-79

 

6 in a row!

 

1978:

Simmons: .287-22-80

Reitz: .246-10-75

Hendrick: .288-17-67

Hernandez: .255-11-64

 

7 in a row!

 

 

In 1979 Simmons was having an incredible year this got hit and broke his hand. After playing 152,161,152,157,150,150 & 152 games in the 7 previous years leading his team in hitting, Simmons only played 123 games in 79 because of being hit by a pitch. Numbers: .283-26-87. What might have been but a hit by pitch broke his 7 consecutive yrs leading his team in RBI's which remains unbroken.

 

For Carlos Lee to have 28 more RBI's than the 2nd place ribbie guy on the Brewers and to be acknowledged being the best player on the Brewers how come:

 

When Simmons led his teammates by:

 

72: 15

73: 22

74: 3

75: 24

76: 4

77: 4

78: 5

 

He should be considered the best player in some of those years shouldn't he?

 

As far as Brock being better in 74 Simmons came in 13th in the MVP while Brock didn't crack the top 25.

 

Interesting take but Simmons was the man for St.Louis while voted the captain right away in 81 for the Brewers, Milw had better players then Atl he wasn't full time so his numbers there shouldn't be looked at as much as his 15 years as a full time player.

 

Thought provoking post that I will delve into more.

[gregmag]

For Carlos Lee to have 28 more RBI's than the 2nd place ribbie guy on the Brewers and to be acknowledged being the best player on the Brewers how come:

 

When Simmons led his teammates by:

 

72: 15

73: 22

74: 3

75: 24

76: 4

77: 4

78: 5

 

Okay, you've made a string of medicore-to-bad arguments before, but this one can't be allowed to stand. I could ask what your assertion about Lee and the Brewers in 2005 (I think Jenkins can make a case) has to do with Simmons and the Cards in the early 1970s, but there's a much deeper problem here: RBI, at least on a single-season basis, is a really bad way to decide who's the best player on a team.

 

Let's look at your own evidence, first; just the triple crown stats:

 

In 1974, Reggie Smith outhit Simmons by 37 points and hit three more home runs. But you want us to believe that Simmons' advantage of three RBI makes him better?

 

In 1976, Brock outhit Simmons by ten points, plus leadoff man Brock came within one homer and eight RBI of Simmons' "production."

 

So for those years, your argument is laughable. For the others, I agree that Simmons was the Cards' best hitter (Hernandez, not Brock, beat him out in 1976, according to this method.) So that's something big: five years out of seven as his team's best hitter.

 

But what doesn't that take into account? In the early 1970s, Brock was running up obscene SB totals, at a time when that mattered for offense. He was also scoring a ton of runs, a stat every bit as important as RBI. In 1973, Simmons has Brock by 12 points of OPS+, but Brock stole 70 bases (in 90 tries) and scored 110 runs to Simmons' 62. I'd say that takes 1973 out of Ted's "best Cardinal" column.

 

Then there's defensive value. Ted was a catcher, and a decent one, so he mattered a lot to the defense. But the young Keith Hernandez was one of the great defensive 1Bs of all time. In 1978, Ted had Keith by 19 points of OPS+, but Keith probably mattered a lot more to the defense. I'd score this one as close, but definitely not a clear win for Simmons.

 

So for clear-cut seasons as the Cards' best position player, Simmons is down to 1972, 1975, and 1977.

 

Now we have to think about pitchers. Yes, the Bill James method that we're using here, like plain English, counts pitchers among "players." In 1972, Bob Gibson went 19-11 with a 2.46 ERA and pitched 278 quality innings (ERA+ 139). I'll take that over Simmons' .303-16-96 (OPS+ 127). In 1975 and 1977, Bob Forsch led the Cards' pitching staffs. He was very good, but he didn't do as much as Simmons.

 

My analysis is no more perfect than anyone else's, but it shows Simmons as the Cards' best player in two seasons -- not the seven you get by looking at RBI exclusively. Two years as top Card fits exactly the profile I think Simmons has: a strong borderline HoFer. He still has my vote.

 

Greg.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Let's take on this one:

 

Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position? The argument always went that Simmons was slightly better than Bench, especially after the Big Red Machine tumbled in 1977. After 1981, Gary Carter took on the mantle of "best catcher in the NL".

 

 

First off the Carter reference does not apply in 81 since Simmons was in the AL.

 

Bench was the man offensively and defensively but he let himself go if you remember the Superstars competition seeing how out of shape he got in the off season. By far was he the best in the early 70's. So should Simmons get criticized for not being the best? Let's look:

 

1971: ave-hr-rbi

Bench: .238-27-61

Simmons: .304 7-77(71)

Fisk meaningless

 

Simmons had the better offensive year wouldn't you say?

 

1972:

Bench: .270-40-125 (72)

Fisk: .293-22-61

Simmons: .303-16-96 (71

 

Bench is the man but Simmons outperformed Fisk in his ROY year

 

1973:

Bench: .253-25-104 (72,73)

Fisk: .246-26-71

Simmons: .310-13-91(71)

 

Interesting stat: runs scored: Boston 738, Cincy 741, St L 643

That being said it's Bench's year but Simmons +.057 in batting ave, knocking in 13 fewer runs when your team scored 98 fewer. Having Pete Rose and Joe Morgan getting on so often sure helps

 

1974:

Bench: .280-33-129 (72,73,74)

Fisk: .299-11-26

Simmons: .272-20-103 (71)

 

Cincy runs scored 776 vs Cards 677 Great year for Bench

 

1975:

Bench: .283 28-110 (72,73,74,75)

Carter: .270-17-68

Fisk: .331-10-52

Simmons: .332-18-100 (71)

 

Cincy runs scored 840, Cards 662 Very close one I will give to Bench even though Simmons knocked in the same amt of teammates on a much inferior team and hit .049 points higher

 

1976

Bench: .234-16-74 (72-75)

Carter: .219-6-38

Fisk: .255-17-58

Simmons: .291-5-75 (71, 76)

 

Cin 857 runs, Cards 629 Simmons IBB 19 times Bench 6. Highest ave and most ribbies 76 goes to Simmons

 

1977:

Bench: .275-31-109 (72-75)

Carter: .284-31-84

Fisk: .315-26-102

Simmons: .318-21-95 71,76,77)

 

runs: Cin-802, Mon-665, Bos-859 Cards-737

 

Simmons 25 IBB.

 

RBI rank on team:

Bench: Foster 149, Bench 109 (2) (-40)

Carter: Perez 91, Carter 84 (2) (-7)

Fisk: Rice 114, Hobson 112, Yaz 102, Fisk 102 (T3) (-12)

Simmons: Simmons 95 (1) (+4)

 

Carter not even being the best run producer on his team while Bench gets blown out by 40 ribbies to show you what a real productive year with Rose and Morgan can do. 77 was Bench's last year knocking in 100 runs but this wasn't his year imo. Fisk had good year for him but it wasn't better than Simmons evidenced by his league leading 25 IBB.

 

1978:

Bench: .260-23-73 (72-75)

Carter: .255-20-72

Fisk: .284-20-88

Simmons: .287-22-80 (71,76,77,7http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif

 

runs: Cin 710, Mon 633, Bos 796 Cards 600

 

rbi rank:

Cin: Foster 120, Morgan 75, Bench 73 (3) (-47)

Mon: Perez 78, Valentine 76, Carter 72 (3) (-6)

Bos: Rice 139, Fisk 88 (2) (-51)

Cards: Simmons 80, Reitz 75 (1) ( +5)

 

This is a competition btwn Fisk/Simmons with Boston scoring 196 more runs and being over 50 runs behind the best run producer on your team has to go to the guy who produced similar numbers and was the best on his team. Incidental 17 IBB.

 

1979:

Bench: .276-22-80 (72-75)

Carter: .283-22-75

Fisk: .272-10-42

Simmons: .283-26-87 (71, 76-79)

 

Simmons wins the triple crown for HOF catchers when he missed a month with a broken hand.

 

1980:

Bench: .260-23-73 (72-75)

Carter: .264-29-101

Fisk: .289-7-45

Simmons: .303-21-98 (71, 76-80)

 

Close one btwn Carter and Simmons but +.039 in batting ave beats -3 in RBI's

 

1981: Strike year:

Bench: .309-8-25 (72-75)

Carter: .251-16-68 (81)

Fisk: .263-7-45

Simmons: .216-14-61(71, 76-80)

 

This one goes to Carter

 

1982:

Bench:.255-12-54 (72-75)

Carter: .293-29-97 (81)

Fisk: .267-14-65

Simmons: .269-23-97(71,76-80, 82)

 

This is a close one btwn Carter and Simmons so if you want to go leagues the last two years you know who the best were for the leagues. Milwaukee makes the playoffs for two straight years so I will give this one to Simmons with Carter getting the close 81.

 

1983:

Bench: .255-12-54 (72-75)

Carter: .270-17-79 (Strike year)

Fisk: .289-26-86 (never)

Simmons: .308-13-108 (71,76,77,78,79,80,82,83)

 

83 was the year the White Sox won the pennant and Fisk got a 3rd place MVP voting for his inferior numbers to Simmons. Small Market???

 

I contend in a 14 year span Ted Simmons was the best offensive catcher in 8 of those years. Bench in the early 70's and Carter only in the strike year when Simmons changed leagues so that comparison can't be made.

 

Some years were close but if you look at the numbers for a decade and a half Simmons was near or the best catcher in baseball while Fisk got in never being and Carter only in the strike year. Carter went on had a couple more decent years but the head to head years with Simmons he did not better him.

 

In the AL tell me another catcher who had these three RBI totals from 81-83: (61-97-10http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif These were Simmons down years:

 

Fisk: (45-65-86) No!

 

I will delve into more later but interesting look jwhouk. Agree/disagree?

[RoseBowlMtg]

Alright gregmag way to go: I brought up Lee just because he has been the best player on the Brewers hasn't he? That being said I was only trying to point out that to say Simmons "wasn't" the best player on the Cards was wrong. Some years were close that we can look at but he was the best some time when he led his team in ribbies 7 straight years, 3 times by 15, 22 & 24 from a crucial defensive position.

 

Great post though gregmag and I know ribbies isn't everything but when you compiler other stats it is showing.

 

Let's look at 1974:

 

In 1974, Reggie Smith outhit Simmons by 37 points and hit three more home runs. But you want us to believe that Simmons' advantage of three RBI makes him better?

 

That was a close one: They both had 59 XBH's but Smith had 5 more total bases. I will give you that one but Simmons shouldn't be looked down upon for his 74 yr as a 24 yr old catcher.

 

As for 76: 75 ribbies leading your team? 19 IBB's vs 7 for Brock tells you what the opposing pitchers were thinking. That being said 76 wasn't a very good year offensively for the Cards but John Denny led the NL in ERA. That has to give some cred to Simba.

 

As in giving credit to Forsch do you give any credit to the guy who gets tons of credit from many pitchers?

 

 

Let's look at more than RBI's since that isn't everything:

 

72: ave..rbi

Brock .311, 42

Torre: .289, 81

Simmons .303 96

 

The best combination of ave and production

 

73:

Brock .297, 63

Torre .287, 69

Simmons: .310, 91

 

ditto

 

74:

Brock .306, 48

Smith .309, 100

Simmons .272, 103

 

A very good productive Cardinal team than lost by 2 games to Pitts.

Most production but not the best hitter

 

75:

Brock: .309, 47

Smith: .302, 76

Simmons: .332, 100

 

An incredible year for a 25 yr old catcher

 

76:

Brock .301, 67

Cruz: .228, 71

Simmons: .291, 75

 

Great year for HOFamer 37 yr old Brock.

 

77:

Hernandez: .291, 91

Templeton: .322, 79

Simmons: .318, 95 ML leader 25 IBB's

 

78:

Hendrick .288, 67

Hernandez .255, 64

Simmons: .287, 80

 

Best offensive year again.

 

1979 Keith Hernandez made SI stating

"Who's Keith Hernandez and what's he doing hitting .344?"

 

gregmag you got me digging so thanks. If Simmons wasn't the man for the Cardinals every yr by just a bit in the 70's he was by the opposing pitchers. That all being said I believe that is a small criteria for evaluating Simmons HOF.

 

Great thoughts though gregmag!

[RoseBowlMtg]

gregmag states:

 

OK, you've made a string of mediocre-to-bad arguments before, but this one can't be allowed to stand. I could ask what your assertion about Lee and the Brewers in 2005 (I think Jenkins can make a case)

 

Isn't that laughable? If Jenkins can make a case I just think more people think 100 RBI's is better than 72. Yes and RBI's do tell a story.

 

 

gregmag you state:

So for those years, your argument is laughable. For the others, I agree that Simmons was the Cards' best hitter (Hernandez, not Brock, beat him out in 1976, according to this method.) So that's something big: five years out of seven as his team's best hitter.

 

Let's look at 76 and see who was better:

 

 

..................hits...2B...HR..RBI...BB...SO...ave...

Hernandez: 108..21....7....46.....49......53.....289

Simmons: 159..35....3....75.....73......35.....291

 

The only stat Hernandez had more was K's. How is a .289 hitter with only 46 RBI's better than Simmons?

 

As for my mediocre arguments I would think leading your position in hits for your position should work for catchers since it works for every other position.

 

If that doesn't work maybe second in RBI's should get you in per position since it does for every other position.

 

Interesting thing to look up would be the ranks not in the HOF. For ex: Is the 6th rank 1st baseman in hits not in the HOF?

 

We know the leader for catchers in hits isn't even eligible

We know the 2nd place for catchers in ribbies isn't eligible.

 

Let's look at the other positions. For another time.

 

Yes some are mediocre points but the major points don't convince everyone and I have until 2011 to convince the veterans committee.

[gregmag]

Yes some are mediocre points but the major points don't convince everyone and I have until 2011 to convince the veterans committee.

 

I love it!

 

I'm definitely not arguing that Simmons wasn't terrific in those years, and I also agree with you that Simmons should go in the Hall. You're kind of throwing everything but the kitchen sink out there, so I think some of it is weak, but you're right that Ted's case is strong and mulifaceted.

 

Sorry I got cranky about RBI. RBI do that to me sometimes. Thanks for your good humor.

 

Greg.

[RoseBowlMtg]

No problem gregmag baseball is all for discussion:

 

Check out the HOF by position and then look at the HOF threads for the worthiness of Dawson, Raines and the rest and see if they have more hits than every OF in the HOF. See where they rank with RBI's. It's an utter joke imo.

 

Andre Dawson great career:

 

His 1591 rbi's to rank 2nd with OF's ala Simmons with catchers he'd have to surpass Babe Ruth's 2213. Only 622 behind not to mention so many other of's

 

Is this a meaningless point?

 

Ron Santo for 3rd baseman: Very good career:

 

More hits than Brett? RBI's than Mathew's?

 

Any player who wants to get into the HOF should not compare his stats per position to Simmons unless they want to get 17 votes.

[splitterpfj]

The 17 votes is the part I've never understood. Knowing how much the writers favor the big home run guys, I'm not surprised they didn't elect Ted, but to completely disregard him just makes no sense to me.

 

As I stated earlier in this thread, there are lots of former Brewers and Cardinals on the Veterans Committee, assuming they still are when Ted is eligible, I think Ted will be seriously considered by that group.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Could one of you more sabermetric than me tell me how much park factor effects the individual for the year? Is it a mathematical formula or estimate. You all know my comparison with Simmons and Fisk but I just came up with the Park Factors in comparison.

 

The same 14 yrs I used to compare Fisk and Simmons, here are the park factors:

 

Fisk/ Simmons

Fenway/Busch

 

72: 106/99 +7

73: 106/100 +6

74: 107/99 +8

75: 109/104 +5

76: 112/101 +11

77: 112/98 +14

78: 111/99 +12

79: 106/101 +5

80: 105/103 +2

 

Comiskey/County St

81: 98/95 +3

82: 100/94 +6

83: 104/92 +12

84: 105/96 +9

85: 104/100 +4

 

Totals: Fisk: 1485/14 = 106.07

Totals: Simba: 1381/14 = 98.64

 

What is the formula if parks were changed or do you just multiply to get to 100?

 

For ex: Some say Fisk had a better year in 77. What does park factor do to the stats and what if they were switched?

 

Fisk: 536 AB, 169 H, 26 2B, 26 HR, 102 RBI, 75 BB, 85 K's, .315 BA, .521 SA

 

Simmons: 516 AB, 164 H, 25 2B, 21 HR's, 95 RBI's, 79 BB, 37 K's, .318 BA, .500 SA

 

Now how does a park factor of 112 for Fisk and park factor of 98 effect these similar stats?

 

Thanks

[RoseBowlMtg]

Would it help to mention the home/away stats?

 

Fisk: 112 Park Factor:

Home: .337/.440/.576

Away: .295/.364/.470

 

Simmons: 98 Park Factor:

Home: .310/.397/.484

Away: .326/.419/.516

 

Is there any formula to estimate what Simmons would have hit in a 112 park factor and Fisk in a 98?

 

Interesting to note which way each player went away from their home.

 

Any help?

[RoseBowlMtg]

Here are some interesting takes on the HOF ommission:

 

Ted Simmons was such a big star for 21 seasons in the majors that it was a shock to many people when the Hall of Fame voters in 1994 gave him less than 4% of the vote and he was thereafter dropped from the ballot. His credentials, as pointed out below, exceed those of most Hall of Fame catchers.

 

He was often in the All Star game, being named eight times.

 

As a catcher, he had unusually high batting averages, hitting in the top ten in the league six times. In 1975 he was second in the league. He broke in during the second dead-ball era when averages were low, so his averages mean more than they would today. For instance, in 1972, he hit .303 when the league as a whole hit only .248.

 

Simmons' lifetime batting average of .285 is tied with Hall of Famer Yogi Berra, and better than Hall of Famers Johnny Bench (.267) and Carlton Fisk (.269). In fact, there is no Hall of Fame catcher who has played in major league baseball since 1950 who has a batting average as high as the .285 that Berra and Simmons share. Some of the players prior to 1950 had gaudy batting averages during the lively ball era, but consider the reality. For example, Bill Dickey, famed for his high batting average, was only in the top ten in the league 3 times (compared to 6 for Simmons), and his highest finish was 3rd (compared to 2nd for Simmons). And Mickey Cochrane has the highest batting average of any Hall of Fame catcher (.320), but was only in the top 10 five times and never finished as high as Simmons' second place finish.

 

Simmons has 2,472 lifetime hits, more than any catcher in the Hall of Fame. The closest is Carlton Fisk with 2,356. Yogi Berra had 2,150.

 

Simmons' power was excellent for a catcher. He hit 483 doubles lifetime, which is # 58 on the all-time list. There is no catcher in the history of baseball who was primarily a catcher who has as many doubles as Simmons. Carlton Fisk, in a longer career, had 421, and Bob Boone had 303, Gary Carter had 371, Yogi Berra had 321, and Johnny Bench had 381.

 

Simmons had 1389 RBI in his career. That total is higher than every catcher in the Hall of Fame, except for Yogi Berra, who had 1430. Yogi, like Simmons, also played several hundred games at positions other than catcher.

 

Simmons hit 248 home runs in his career. Only four of the fourteen Hall of Fame catchers have hit more. Gary Carter, who had 324 home runs, had a slugging percertage of .439, only two points higher than Simmons, because Simmons had so many more singles and doubles than Carter.

 

Simmons won no MVP awards, but then neither did Gary Carter or Carlton Fisk or Bill Dickey or Rick Ferrell or several other Hall of Fame catchers. Simmons did finish as high as 6th in the MVP voting in 1975, a year in which his team barely finished over .500. Simmons' best years were unfortunately spent with a St. Louis Cardinals team that could not win the division while he was there. The team did win the pennant when he was an 18-year-old rookie, but he appeared in only 2 games (hitting .333) and did not appear in post-season play.

 

Ted Simmons had an extremely long career at catcher, playing in 1,771 games at that position. Bob Boone and Carlton Fisk, his contemporaries, set records at the position with over 2,200 games, so Simmons does not hold the record but the career is exceedingly long, and he also added several hundred games at DH, first base, third base, and outfield. He was considered adequate defensively, but won no Gold Gloves. Of course, during most of Simmons' career as a catcher, Johnny Bench won the Gold Glove for National League catcher every year, so winning the Gold Glove at the time was unusually tough. You didn't just have to be the best defensive catcher in the league - you had to beat Johnny Bench at defense.

 

He did finally get into the 1982 World Series in his days with the Milwaukee Brewers, on the famous "Brew Crew".

 

After his playing career ended, Ted Simmons was General Manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates from 1992 to 1993. Simmons left the job due to health problems.

 

There is already a movement to get the Veterans Committee to let him into the Hall of Fame. See Why Ted Simmons Belongs in