Are the Brewers Closer to a Rebuild than a Title Contender?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

Yes, where is it written in concrete that you can’t do both?

 

If I can’t get a decent prospect for Chacín, I keep him.

 

But Grandal is my #1 tradable asset, so I eat his salary to get better prospects. Freitas will help our offense with his contact orientated approach at the plate, and better defense.

 

It doesn't need to be written anywhere. It's common sense.

 

I do get the interest in seeing what Freitas can do at the ML level, but as has been proven on multiple occasions this year, AAA production does not necessarily mean that the guy is going to hit MLB pitching. I'm not dealing off Grandal unless I know I'm not in the playoff chase. It makes zero sense to do anything other than that.

 

Like I said before, you either go for it or you don't. None of this middling stuff that you've been suggesting (dealing Hader included). You keep throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks, in an attempt (I guess) to rile up conversation ... but many times it just makes you look like you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

[wntrtxn21]

What are we.... 2 or 3 games out of the WC and division? We are a very good team that can hardly play worse. We are getting reinforcements (bullpen) soon.

 

Exactly, bullpen reinforcements are exactly what this team needs to be able to win the central.

 

I’d do the following with the aforementioned pen reinforcements:

 

Trade Chacín for prospects.

Trade Grandal for prospects

 

Gio replaces Chacín.

Freitas replaces Grandal

 

Don’t need Chacín with Gio/Peralta

Freitas can hit and defend, less than 100 ab’s At .214 in ML not enough to judge, last 2 years .950+ ops 500 ab’s, .450+ on base telling, non K bat too. At least he gets a real shot to show us what he can do.

 

At least one of the 2 pen reinforcements should be controlled past this year, but hoping for both.

 

Where do you get Freitas can hit and defend? Freitas is a career minor leaguer who is an average defensive catcher and has failed to hit MLB pitching. He's almost 31 yrs. old and hitting in the very friendly PCL. There's a reason he has spent 10+ years in the minor leagues. Chacin wouldn't be a huge loss, even though Peralta has proven he isn't a starting pitcher until he gets a third pitch and a consistent breaking ball. Grandal would be a huge loss to the offense. Your trades would mean the Brewers are giving up on the season.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The NL is so bad that even just being OK the rest of the year could get WC2. Would people rather they accept they can't win a title and sell off pieces, or do nothing and fart to WC2. I'm honestly not sure of my own answer. It's so rare to get those chances I don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world.

[Thurston Fluff]

The fact that theyve played poorly against bad teams is disconcerting. I think if they had Grandal and Moose under contract for next season I'd feel differently about selling . I'm pretty close to throwing in the towel on this year. Things could turn around quickly however...they could win six in a row quite easily.

 

Luckily we're about to start to playing against good teams again. They seem to play better against good teams.

[BruisedCrew]

I swear this forum has the biggest pessimisists in baseball. You go one game short of the World Series and are in a title run the next year with pretty much your exact same roster, then hit a bump and it’s time to rebuild. I can’t handle some of you.

 

Anyone who thinks Brewers fans or people on this forum are the biggest pessimists in baseball has obviously never paid attention to fans or message boards for other teams. And that includes fans of teams who have won at least one World Series in their lifetimes and made multiple playoff appearances in the last 10-15 years.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

The NL is so bad that even just being OK the rest of the year could get WC2. Would people rather they accept they can't win a title and sell off pieces, or do nothing and fart to WC2. I'm honestly not sure of my own answer. It's so rare to get those chances I don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world.

 

If you stand a shot at making the playoffs, you take it. Making the playoffs in MLB is hard. And if you qualify, all bets are off. This team proved earlier this year that they can stick with anyone. They are playing like crap right now no doubt. But it they can identify another consistent starter to go with Woodruff and Davies (perhaps Chacin is that guy), and get the back end of the pen sorted out, this is a team that nobody's underdog.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

And I suspect that is where DS sits. He thinks the chips are going to fall and the team is either not good enough and therefore he doesn't want to give up real assets to improve, or maybe just good enough to squeak in and compete. You can argue that Moose and Grandal are sunk costs coming off the books, so if he holds on to both and they miss it, it's not exactly like he lost a whole lot.

[Brew crew 92]

What are we.... 2 or 3 games out of the WC and division? We are a very good team that can hardly play worse. We are getting reinforcements (bullpen) soon.

 

Exactly, bullpen reinforcements are exactly what this team needs to be able to win the central.

 

I’d do the following with the aforementioned pen reinforcements:

 

Trade Chacín for prospects.

Trade Grandal for prospects

 

Gio replaces Chacín.

Freitas replaces Grandal

 

Don’t need Chacín with Gio/Peralta

Freitas can hit and defend, less than 100 ab’s At .214 in ML not enough to judge, last 2 years .950+ ops 500 ab’s, .450+ on base telling, non K bat too. At least he gets a real shot to show us what he can do.

 

At least one of the 2 pen reinforcements should be controlled past this year, but hoping for both.

 

Where do you get Freitas can hit and defend? Freitas is a career minor leaguer who is an average defensive catcher and has failed to hit MLB pitching. He's almost 31 yrs. old and hitting in the very friendly PCL. There's a reason he has spent 10+ years in the minor leagues. Chacin wouldn't be a huge loss, even though Peralta has proven he isn't a starting pitcher until he gets a third pitch and a consistent breaking ball. Grandal would be a huge loss to the offense. Your trades would mean the Brewers are giving up on the season.

 

Again, less than 110 total mlb ab’s. Some guys just figure it out. Max muncy. He’s not just hitting the pcl pitching at an expected above average rate, he’s way beyond that.

 

.365 .450. Not including his 2 doubles in the AAA all-star game off 2 pretty good pitchers.

[Jopal78]

IMO, the single biggest determining factor on whether the Brewers compete for a championship over the next three years will be their ability to internally develop impact starting pitching.

 

Uh, the Brewers are amongst the worst and possibly the worst at developing starting pitching, with but a handful over a span of decades: Eldred, Sheets, Gallardo, Woodruff and depending how liberally you construe the term ‘impact’ Fiers.

 

The best pitching prospects they have are Peralta and Burnes both of whom are major reasons the team is where they are currently. Anyone else either profiles as a back of the rotation starter or is multiple seasons away.

 

Waiting for prospects to arrive (and hope they hit the ground running) to make a championship caliber club, while they have dynamic talent on the major league roster is silly. The franchise already wasted 2009 and 2010 with Braun and Fielder together in their prime. You’d think they wouldn’t do the same thing again. I don’t think trading off players with expiring contracts this year results in the major league team improving substantially in 2020 and 2021.

[sveumrules]

Title Contender

Playoff Contender

(Brewers)

Mediocrity

Rebuild

 

I've got the Brewers precariously straddling the line between Playoff Contender & Mediocrity which makes them about equidistant from both Title Contender & Rebuild.

 

So to answer the question in the thread title, perhaps.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Don't underestimate the value of an ace. Guys like Chacin and Davies are much more viable options when they don't have to masquerade as one. I know they aren't growing on trees but take Greinke off the staff in 2011 and it looks much worse. I'm just saying you're not always as far away from competence as it feels.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

Again, less than 110 total mlb ab’s. Some guys just figure it out. Max muncy. He’s not just hitting the pcl pitching at an expected above average rate, he’s way beyond that.

 

.365 .450. Not including his 2 doubles in the AAA all-star game off 2 pretty good pitchers.

 

Tyler Saladino had an OPS of .943 at the time of his call-up. You have made the mistake of getting infatuated with AAA stats several times this season. I remember post after post from you calling for the Brewers to insert Aaron Wilkerson in the rotation due to his outstanding work at AAA.

 

Yeah, sometimes AAA stats do mean something ... but typically its when trying to decide whether to call up a prospect. In the case of Saladino, Wilkerson, Freitas, or any of the other AAAA-types you've attached yourself to this year, those stats are not very important.

[Brew crew 92]

 

Again, less than 110 total mlb ab’s. Some guys just figure it out. Max muncy. He’s not just hitting the pcl pitching at an expected above average rate, he’s way beyond that.

 

.365 .450. Not including his 2 doubles in the AAA all-star game off 2 pretty good pitchers.

 

Tyler Saladino had an OPS of .943 at the time of his call-up. You have made the mistake of getting infatuated with AAA stats several times this season. I remember post after post from you calling for the Brewers to insert Aaron Wilkerson in the rotation due to his outstanding work at AAA.

 

Yeah, sometimes AAA stats do mean something ... but typically its when trying to decide whether to call up a prospect. In the case of Saladino, Wilkerson, Freitas, or any of the other AAAA-types you've attached yourself to this year, those stats are not very important.

 

Haven’t ever attached myself to Saladino.

 

.943 because of power is not the same as .950 because of actual hitting ability. I’ll take my chances the last 2 1/2 months on his .450 on base hitting ability.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

Again, less than 110 total mlb ab’s. Some guys just figure it out. Max muncy. He’s not just hitting the pcl pitching at an expected above average rate, he’s way beyond that.

 

.365 .450. Not including his 2 doubles in the AAA all-star game off 2 pretty good pitchers.

 

Tyler Saladino had an OPS of .943 at the time of his call-up. You have made the mistake of getting infatuated with AAA stats several times this season. I remember post after post from you calling for the Brewers to insert Aaron Wilkerson in the rotation due to his outstanding work at AAA.

 

Yeah, sometimes AAA stats do mean something ... but typically its when trying to decide whether to call up a prospect. In the case of Saladino, Wilkerson, Freitas, or any of the other AAAA-types you've attached yourself to this year, those stats are not very important.

 

Haven’t ever attached myself to Saladino.

 

.943 because of power is not the same as .950 because of actual hitting ability. I’ll take my chances the last 2 1/2 months on his .450 on base hitting ability.

 

I never said you attached yourself to Saladino. He is simply an example of the danger of using empty AAA stats as gospel. Which you continue to do.

[Thurston Fluff]

IMO, the single biggest determining factor on whether the Brewers compete for a championship over the next three years will be their ability to internally develop impact starting pitching.

 

Uh, the Brewers are amongst the worst and possibly the worst at developing starting pitching, with but a handful over a span of decades: Eldred, Sheets, Gallardo, Woodruff and depending how liberally you construe the term ‘impact’ Fiers.

 

The best pitching prospects they have are Peralta and Burnes both of whom are major reasons the team is where they are currently. Anyone else either profiles as a back of the rotation starter or is multiple seasons away.

 

Waiting for prospects to arrive (and hope they hit the ground running) to make a championship caliber club, while they have dynamic talent on the major league roster is silly. The franchise already wasted 2009 and 2010 with Braun and Fielder together in their prime. You’d think they wouldn’t do the same thing again. I don’t think trading off players with expiring contracts this year results in the major league team improving substantially in 2020 and 2021.

 

I don't think you can compare the past to the present because all those teams had a different front office and player development system. As far as pitchers profiling as back end of the rotation types what did Woodruff profile as in the minors? Speaking of Woodruff, while Peralta and Burnes might be part of the problem now I'd say that is more because of the position the Brewers out them in than what they will ultimately be. They are more like what Woodruff was in 2017-18 only the Brewers asked them to be more like Woodruff circa 2019. Yet Woodruff's development curve is a year or so ahead of them.

[tmwiese55]

As much as it's clear the team is struggling right now. I really think just adding two competent and reliable bullpen arms would make a world of difference. Shouldn't cost too much to do it. You're 2ish games out of the division, you simply can't punt in that situation. I'd be trying to get in front of the deadline and do it now rather than wait until the last day. The extra win or two you get by having a better pen two weeks earlier could be the difference

 

Two more bad weeks and if the Cubs get hot and put you say 7 back, well then yea that changes things.

[shanedog19]

As much as it's clear the team is struggling right now. I really think just adding two competent and reliable bullpen arms would make a world of difference. Shouldn't cost too much to do it. You're 2ish games out of the division, you simply can't punt in that situation. I'd be trying to get in front of the deadline and do it now rather than wait until the last day. The extra win or two you get by having a better pen two weeks earlier could be the difference

 

Two more bad weeks and if the Cubs get hot and put you say 7 back, well then yea that changes things.

 

This week should be a big barometer of where the team is at. The Braves to me look like a legit title contender, it will be interesting to see how we stack up against them. But you're right, the bullpen is pretty lousy and needs improvement. But do you wait until the end of July to add to the bullpen, or do you do it now in hopes that it will keep you in the division race the next few weeks? Does adding two bullpen arms make this team a title contender, or is the starting pitching still not good enough to get us there?

[yourout]

2-7-2 over the last 11 series.

I can't say for sure but I think that's a worse stretch then they ever had last year

[rickh150]

Don't underestimate the value of an ace. Guys like Chacin and Davies are much more viable options when they don't have to masquerade as one. I know they aren't growing on trees but take Greinke off the staff in 2011 and it looks much worse. I'm just saying you're not always as far away from competence as it feels.

 

Agree totally.... We feel entirely different about our team if we have Bum and a great setup guy.

[trwi7]

Don't underestimate the value of an ace.

 

Agree totally.... We feel entirely different about our team if we have Bum

 

It's not 2015.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'd still take him in a heartbeat on this team.

[sobomp3]

An ace does nothing for this team. So we "stop the bleeding" every 5 days? No. Our offense needs to start performing to expectations and our bullpen needs to do its job. I say upgrade the bullpen.

[homer]

Don't underestimate the value of an ace.

 

Agree totally.... We feel entirely different about our team if we have Bum

 

It's not 2015.

 

No kidding. Woodruff is better than Bumgarner.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

An ace does nothing for this team.

 

Stop it.

[Jaylyn]

I would take a proactive "wait and see" approach. The next two weeks is the make or break for this year. If they hold at .500 or better, go out be buyers. On the other hand, if they finish the next 14 days like I fear they might, then sell. Not a rebuild, more of a retooling.