Shopping Grandal to the Dodgers

[pacopete4]

Their catchers suck. Austin Barnes and Russel Martin have just been bad. We could take Martin back in a deal to offset some money for a better prospect(s). The Dodgers lineup would be set with adding Grandal. Seems like a no-brainer.

[adambr2]

For some reason I just believe the Dodgers are really not all that interested in a reunion. I think they are very cognizant of Grandal's non-offensive shortcomings and suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff. They have an amazing rotation and my personal opinion is that they are probably willing to live with a little less offense at that position and not stir the pot for their pitchers for a guy who they were clearly uncomfortable with in the postseason last year.

[Jaylyn]

For some reason I just believe the Dodgers are really not all that interested in a reunion. I think they are very cognizant of Grandal's non-offensive shortcomings and suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff. They have an amazing rotation and my personal opinion is that they are probably willing to live with a little less offense at that position and not stir the pot for their pitchers for a guy who they were clearly uncomfortable with in the postseason last year.

You bring up a point that I've been considering for weeks now, "suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff". As much as the loss of Derek Johnson has been discussed as the cause of the underwhelming performance of the majority of the pitching staff, I have wondered if Grandal could be part of the problem with the staff?

[Invader3K]

You bring up a point that I've been considering for weeks now, "suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff". As much as the loss of Derek Johnson has been discussed as the cause of the underwhelming performance of the majority of the pitching staff, I have wondered if Grandal could be part of the problem with the staff?

 

At the start of the year when this team was on a roll, it was a non issue. Did Grandal suddenly start calling for different pitches in different situations? I highly doubt it.

[Oxy]

This would just be weird. Playing against the guy in the NLCS last year, then he switches to our side, then we deal him right back...can't see it happening.

 

I have no idea what Grandal, Moose, and Thames are worth on the trade market, but I hope DS is dangling them out there anyway.

[Wahoo Maniac]

You bring up a point that I've been considering for weeks now, "suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff". As much as the loss of Derek Johnson has been discussed as the cause of the underwhelming performance of the majority of the pitching staff, I have wondered if Grandal could be part of the problem with the staff?

 

At the start of the year when this team was on a roll, it was a non issue. Did Grandal suddenly start calling for different pitches in different situations? I highly doubt it.

I don't know who you're referring to but I've been saying Grandal sucks at calling pitches since game one with us. It's obvious too. Last night was a great example of it with the entire pen. One example, him forcing Burnes to pound inside sliders all day except they were just sitting and spinning. So instead of moving off that to low and away to force him to release it out front more and get that feel back he continues to pound inside while Longoria continued to foul off bullets. A guy locked in fouling off inside pitches all day should probably see a low and away slider but that would make too much sense. The slider is Albers best pitch and he should be throwing it often. Instead he has him throwing fastballs and changeups until after the granny. Then he had him pound the slider. It's brutal to watch

[pacopete4]

The Dodgers did offers QO to him. Could’ve been just to get a pick but doubt there’s any bad blood. There catchers stink.

[Wahoo Maniac]

I wouldn't trade Grandal as we're 1.5 games out of the division with a lot of games left. If we fall 10 games back by the end of July then you can do a fire sale but I don't see that happening.

[JohnBriggs12]

I wouldn't trade Grandal as we're 1.5 games out of the division with a lot of games left. If we fall 10 games back by the end of July then you can do a fire sale but I don't see that happening.

 

If you've watched this team over the past month, that seems like a real possibility unless Stearns ponies up for help now rather than waiting until end of the month.

[LouisEly]

Catching is the hardest position to add at the deadline because of unfamiliarity with the pitchers. Grandal would be by far the best option for the Dodgers because he is perhaps the only catcher they could add who is familiar with most of the staff. Not a bad idea, but barring a big losing streak over the next 17 days I don't see the Brewers waiving the white flag.

[Eye Black]

I wouldn't trade Grandal as we're 1.5 games out of the division with a lot of games left. If we fall 10 games back by the end of July then you can do a fire sale but I don't see that happening.

Trading players on expiring contracts like Grandal (and Moustakas) isn’t a fire sale.

 

They have just 16 games remaining in July. I agree that they would need to lose a lot more games (probably at least 10+), but I don’t think 10 games out would be the parameter for selling. If they end up greater than 6.0 games out of both the division and wild card with several teams between them and the playoff position, then I would be disappointed if they didn’t engage in the concept of selling. I’ve brought it up before in the sell thread (link), but the 2016 Yankees are a good example of an average team that used a few trades at the deadline to improve their future outlook.

[Brew crew 92]

Catching is the hardest position to add at the deadline because of unfamiliarity with the pitchers. Grandal would be by far the best option for the Dodgers because he is perhaps the only catcher they could add who is familiar with most of the staff. Not a bad idea, but barring a big losing streak over the next 17 days I don't see the Brewers waiving the white flag.

 

I’m warming to the idea of trading him to the Dodgers, if for no other reason than that being the only way to get Freitas up and playing.

[Eye Black]

For some reason I just believe the Dodgers are really not all that interested in a reunion. I think they are very cognizant of Grandal's non-offensive shortcomings and suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff. They have an amazing rotation and my personal opinion is that they are probably willing to live with a little less offense at that position and not stir the pot for their pitchers for a guy who they were clearly uncomfortable with in the postseason last year.

You bring up a point that I've been considering for weeks now, "suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff". As much as the loss of Derek Johnson has been discussed as the cause of the underwhelming performance of the majority of the pitching staff, I have wondered if Grandal could be part of the problem with the staff?

There has been an underlying theory following Grandal for a while that pitchers don’t like throwing to him. As far back as five years ago in San Diego there were three starting pitchers that wouldn’t (or at least didn’t) throw to him in Tyson Ross, Andrew Cashner and Ian Kennedy.

 

However, after he went to the Dodgers, Zack Greinke said the following about Grandal:

 

"He's been unbelievable back there," Greinke said. "His catching is better than advertised, and working with me individually, he's been as good as you could expect. I don't think, from what I've seen so far, you could ever have expected anything more.

 

"He's done everything. His hands are great. He's blocked everything I've thrown. People stole on him last year, but he's had some really good throws in games I've thrown in spring training. And then his game calling's been good.

 

"I couldn't draw up a better catcher at the moment." (Link)

Then last year the Dodgers obviously benched him in the playoffs, but that was seemingly due to the defensive issues and not a mismanagement of the pitching staff.

 

I haven’t really heard much out of the Brewers pitchers this year one way or another. I still side with the idea that the Brewers pitchers struggles aren’t directly attributed to Grandal in anyway, but I’m open to being proven wrong. It would certainly be fascinating to get a candid answer to that question from those within the pitching staff (something we won’t likely ever get).

[jerichoholicninja]

For some reason I just believe the Dodgers are really not all that interested in a reunion. I think they are very cognizant of Grandal's non-offensive shortcomings and suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff. They have an amazing rotation and my personal opinion is that they are probably willing to live with a little less offense at that position and not stir the pot for their pitchers for a guy who they were clearly uncomfortable with in the postseason last year.

You bring up a point that I've been considering for weeks now, "suspicious of his influence on a pitching staff". As much as the loss of Derek Johnson has been discussed as the cause of the underwhelming performance of the majority of the pitching staff, I have wondered if Grandal could be part of the problem with the staff?

There has been an underlying theory following Grandal for a while that pitchers don’t like throwing to him. As far back as five years ago in San Diego there were three starting pitchers that wouldn’t (or at least didn’t) throw to him in Tyson Ross, Andrew Cashner and Ian Kennedy.

 

However, after he went to the Dodgers, Zack Greinke said the following about Grandal:

 

"He's been unbelievable back there," Greinke said. "His catching is better than advertised, and working with me individually, he's been as good as you could expect. I don't think, from what I've seen so far, you could ever have expected anything more.

 

"He's done everything. His hands are great. He's blocked everything I've thrown. People stole on him last year, but he's had some really good throws in games I've thrown in spring training. And then his game calling's been good.

 

"I couldn't draw up a better catcher at the moment." (Link)

Then last year the Dodgers obviously benched him in the playoffs, but that was seemingly due to the defensive issues and not a mismanagement of the pitching staff.

 

I haven’t really heard much out of the Brewers pitchers this year one way or another. I still side with the idea that the Brewers pitchers struggles aren’t directly attributed to Grandal in anyway, but I’m open to being proven wrong. It would certainly be fascinating to get a candid answer to that question from those within the pitching staff (something we won’t likely ever get).

 

Every pitcher outside of Davies and Woodruff has regressed hardcore from last year. I'm sure a lot of those guys had some career years but something is up for just about every single pitcher to fall flat on their face. Losing DJ hurt a little I bet but there's not way he can be the sole reason for it. And I'm not putting all the blame on Grandal either. It's probably a combination of the two.

 

Didn't Kershaw have his own non-Grandal personal catcher? And not always the same guy each year? That seems suspicious. And I never know what to make of anything Greinke says. He very well could have said all that with total sarcasm behind it and just never showed it. I would bet he probably just does his own thing anyway and doesn't care about what the catcher wants.

[trwi7]

I don't think the Dodgers would go back to that well after watching him struggle so badly defensively in the playoffs. And the rest of the team is so strong they probably feel they can get away with a bad hitting catcher as long as he doesn't screw up defensively.

 

Teams I'd be looking at.

 

If the Rangers stay in contention and decide to buy catcher is one place they could really use an upgrade. They've been a special blend of bad defensively and absolutely horrific offensively.

 

The Nationals aren't getting much from their catchers.

 

Neither are the A's.

 

Rays with Zunino and d'Arnaud aren't doing much offensively.

 

Those would be the four teams I'm looking at. Might have to pay some money for the Rays to bite but those are contenders or at least close to it that could use upgrades at catcher.

[Eye Black]

I would add the Padres and the Angels to the mix of teams that could use a short-term offensive upgrade at the catching position.

[JosephC]

Grandal is on pace to be a 5.6 fWAR and 3.5 bWAR player this year. Average is 4.55. Average season bWAR/fWAR in 2017 and 2018 was 3.7. 2017-2019 (pro-rating 2019 to a full 162 game season) and the average season bWAR/fWAR is 4. IMO, to view him as somewhere between a 4 and 4.5 WAR player seems like a fair number.

 

If he is considered a 4.2 WAR player, that's good enough for 1.8 WAR over the rest of the season. That makes his value 16.2 million. He's still due 9.15 million (6.9 in salary and 2.25 in mutual option), which would make his surplus value +7.05 million. I'm just going to make the assumption that the trading team would insist the Brewers play the mutual option, which I'm assuming the Brewers would be happy to do since it would improve the return package. So I'd put Grandal's surplus value at +9.3 million.

 

I think trwi7 is right on the money when looking at the Rangers as a target. I've caught bits and pieces of quite a few of their games and Jeff Mathis is not a good catcher. Rangers minor league system isn't very good though, I saw some real positive critiques of their farm system last off-season and I didn't really see it then and I don't see it now. Might be tough to find a match from that perspective.

[Wahoo Maniac]

I wouldn't trade Grandal as we're 1.5 games out of the division with a lot of games left. If we fall 10 games back by the end of July then you can do a fire sale but I don't see that happening.

Trading players on expiring contracts like Grandal (and Moustakas) isn’t a fire sale.

 

They have just 16 games remaining in July. I agree that they would need to lose a lot more games (probably at least 10+), but I don’t think 10 games out would be the parameter for selling. If they end up greater than 6.0 games out of both the division and wild card with several teams between them and the playoff position, then I would be disappointed if they didn’t engage in the concept of selling. I’ve brought it up before in the sell thread (link), but the 2016 Yankees are a good example of an average team that used a few trades at the deadline to improve their future outlook.

If you're trading Grandal and Moose then you're trading Thames, Chacin, Albers and everyone else with an expiring contract/option and letting young guys/Shaw take over and calling it a season. You don't need to make every single player available in order for it to be a fire sale. I used 10 games just as an example, not the bar that I'm setting, meaning if we're out by a sizeable number of games then it would make sense to sell off all those guys but right now we're not.

 

Also, the Yankees were 7 games back from the division and WC after July 31 and in 4th place in their division with 3 other teams within .5 game of each other. We'd have to lose a week's worth of games straight in order to fall into the Yankees position.

[Eye Black]

If you're trading Grandal and Moose then you're trading Thames, Chacin, Albers and everyone else with an expiring contract/option and letting young guys/Shaw take over and calling it a season. You don't need to make every single player available in order for it to be a fire sale. I used 10 games just as an example, not the bar that I'm setting, meaning if we're out by a sizeable number of games then it would make sense to sell off all those guys but right now we're not.

I just don’t think fire sale is the right term for what the Brewers would be trying to accomplish by selling. The idea of a “Baseball Fire Sale” is to trade players away for the mere sake of salary relief more so than any sort of valuable return. It’s a financial reset of sorts where you start over with younger, cheaper players. I don’t think the Brewers primary motivation would be to shed expensive contracts, I think they would be looking to receive some value from players that aren’t likely to be part of their plan in 2020.

 

Like we’ve both stated, the Brewers are several losses away yet from the idea of selling becoming a reality.

[homer]

It'd be hilarious if they traded one or both away for prospects and then resigned them in the off season.

[Wahoo Maniac]

If you're trading Grandal and Moose then you're trading Thames, Chacin, Albers and everyone else with an expiring contract/option and letting young guys/Shaw take over and calling it a season. You don't need to make every single player available in order for it to be a fire sale. I used 10 games just as an example, not the bar that I'm setting, meaning if we're out by a sizeable number of games then it would make sense to sell off all those guys but right now we're not.

I just don’t think fire sale is the right term for what the Brewers would be trying to accomplish by selling. The idea of a “Baseball Fire Sale” is to trade players away for the mere sake of salary relief more so than any sort of valuable return. It’s a financial reset of sorts where you start over with younger, cheaper players. I don’t think the Brewers primary motivation would be to shed expensive contracts, I think they would be looking to receive some value from players that aren’t likely to be part of their plan in 2020.

 

Like we’ve both stated, the Brewers are several losses away yet from the idea of selling becoming a reality.

Interesting. I never felt it was solely tied to finances just thought that was merely one aspect of it. Thanks

[homer]

"The purge reached another level of absurdity in February, when it was learned that, in another cost-cutting move, the Marlins had fired the person who had been playing the role of mascot Billy the Marlin for the past 14 years."

 

Hahahaha

[OldHeidelberg]

It sort of galls me that that joke of a franchise won 2 World Series while we went through like 20 years of misery.

[Oxy]

It sort of galls me that that joke of a franchise won 2 World Series while we went through like 20 years of misery.

 

Think about how the Cubs felt watching the Marlins win 2 WS championships in their first decade of existence...

[OnTheBlack]

I wouldn't trade Grandal as we're 1.5 games out of the division with a lot of games left. If we fall 10 games back by the end of July then you can do a fire sale but I don't see that happening.

Trading players on expiring contracts like Grandal (and Moustakas) isn’t a fire sale.

 

They have just 16 games remaining in July. I agree that they would need to lose a lot more games (probably at least 10+), but I don’t think 10 games out would be the parameter for selling. If they end up greater than 6.0 games out of both the division and wild card with several teams between them and the playoff position, then I would be disappointed if they didn’t engage in the concept of selling. I’ve brought it up before in the sell thread (link), but the 2016 Yankees are a good example of an average team that used a few trades at the deadline to improve their future outlook.

 

 

I'm getting to the point where I don't care much about where they are. It comes down to a couple players over the next couple weeks. Aguilar, Burnes, Davies, Hiura, Chacin...even Shaw to a lesser degree. If we continue to sit around the top of the NLC but those guys continue to struggle, we're likely not going to do much anyway. Might as well get some value in return and re-load for next year.