MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?

[mtsportsfan]

This is truly disgusting, players want more money, really, haven't gone to game in 5 years because I just can't a afford to take a family of four.

I know it's not that simple but hard cap and a hard minimum. International player that want to come over are put in a draft, not just for the rich teams anymore. Have tiers of free agency, the most expensive you lose your 1st round pick so on and so forth. Or if your team is in lower market your team gets draft compensation. Hated it when we lost Sabathia and did not receive any comp because the Yankees signed another mover expensive player (name escapes me ).

[rickh150]

More Revenue sharing and salary cap.... that will take care of many of the player association's issues.

If the big markets object to this, as sure as is expected, then perhaps wiggle room ala the NBA and exceptions could be brought in. Perhaps exceptions to signing your own drafted players to FA deals could be worked in. Maybe a soft cap could be used, but then again, a luxury tax is sort of that right now.

[JohnBriggs12]

Hitters aging quicker in baseball has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything to do with more and more pitchers throwing 95 plus. Just watch Braun try to cheat on fastballs and look foolish swinging at breaking balls a foot off the plate. Ben Sheets was a power pitcher. His fastball on a good day sat at 94 and touched 95. Now most rotations feature at least 3 starters who cruise at 95-96, and pens have multiple guys 97-100.

[homer]

Hitters aging quicker in baseball has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything to do with more and more pitchers throwing 95 plus. Just watch Braun try to cheat on fastballs and look foolish swinging at breaking balls a foot off the plate. Ben Sheets was a power pitcher. His fastball on a good day sat at 94 and touched 95. Now most rotations feature at least 3 starters who cruise at 95-96, and pens have multiple guys 97-100.

 

Hitters are aging quicker?

[pacopete4]

I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?

[homer]

I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?

 

Runs/game are roughly the same as they were 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago.

[MrTPlush]

I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?

 

Is that why teams are scoring runs at a record pace? Half of baseball is scoring at a 4.91 clip or higher and 13 teams are at 5 runs a game or more.

 

2019: 15

2018: 5

2017: 9

2016: 3

2015: 1

2014: 0

2013: 1

2012: 1

2011: 3

2010: 3

 

Dominating pitching being a problem seems about 5 years too late as an argument.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?

 

Runs/game are roughly the same as they were 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago.

 

What's telling about that number is the runs/game are basically the same even though there's the perception that more HR = more scoring. MLB is turning into slow pitch softball with hitters' all or nothing approach at the plate - which is hardly entertaining compared to lineups that put more priority on contact and situational hitting, IMO

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?

 

Runs/game are roughly the same as they were 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago.

 

What's telling about that number is the runs/game are basically the same even though there's the perception that more HR = more scoring. MLB is turning into slow pitch softball with hitters' all or nothing approach at the plate - which is hardly entertaining compared to lineups that put more priority on contact and situational hitting, IMO

 

I think the avid baseball fan appreciates contact and situational hitting, but the casual fan digs the long ball. MLB has been making a concerted effort to appeal to that casual fan for years, and the juiced baseball is just another attempt at doing that. The avid fan is going to tune in regardless ... but the casual fan has no interest in watching station-to-station, bunting and sacrifices.

[JosephC]

Hitters aging quicker in baseball has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything to do with more and more pitchers throwing 95 plus. Just watch Braun try to cheat on fastballs and look foolish swinging at breaking balls a foot off the plate. Ben Sheets was a power pitcher. His fastball on a good day sat at 94 and touched 95. Now most rotations feature at least 3 starters who cruise at 95-96, and pens have multiple guys 97-100.

 

Hitters are aging quicker?

 

Wouldn't be a problem if they all got on the Barry Bonds workout plan that so many MLB players were on 10+ years ago.

 

As much as the assumption is that you don't pay older pitchers big money, this year the exact opposite is true:

 

fWAR top 25 batters and their age:

Mike Trout = 27

Cody Bellinger = 23

Christian Yelich = 27

Alex Bregman = 25

Ketel Marte = 25

Xander Bogaerts = 26

Matt Chapman = 26

Peter Alonso = 24

Kris Bryant = 27

Yoan Moncada = 24

Rafael Devers = 22

Javier Baez = 26

Nolan Arenado = 28

DJ LeMahieu = 30

Marcus Semien = 28

Yasmani Grandal = 30

Ronald Acuna = 21

Anthony Rendon = 29

Trevor Story = 26

Carlos Santana = 33

Mookie Betts = 26

Jorge Polanco = 26

Max Muncy = 28

Max Kepler = 26

Eduardo Escobar = 30

Average age = 26.52

 

That's pretty incredible. Only 1 player above the age of 30. And 3 more at 30. 80+% of the list are still in their 20's.

 

I'm not going to list all the pitchers, but there are way more 30+ year olds on the fWAR list of pitchers:

1. Max Scherzer = 34

2. Lance Lynn = 32

3. Charlie Morton = 35

4. Jacob deGrom = 31

5. Stephen Strasburg = 30

8. Zack Greinke = 35

9. Hyun-Jin Ryu = 32

11. Brandon Woodruff = 26 (doesn't fit the 30+ club but I'll list him anyway)

14. Mike Minor = 31

18. Chris Sale = 30

22. Cole Hamels = 35

24. Justin Verlander = 36

25. Masahiro Tanaka = 30

Average age of top 25 = 29.52

Top of the list dominated by 30+ year old's, and 30+ year old's make up just slightly less than 50% of the list.

[JimH5]

Siding with the players? First of all, any sort of collusion or owners keeping the players down is MLBPA propaganda. The facts are 25 of the 30 teams had opening day payrolls of over 100 million dollars. In 2011 less than half the teams had 100 million in payroll commitments so the total money being spent on player salaries has only gone up. The players gripe apparently is that they should be getting a bigger piece of the total revenue.

 

I think baseball has reached a great point where teams have wised up and realized giving long term guaranteed contracts to men as they age into their mid and late 30s is usually a decision they’ll come to regret. And it’s a silly notion that teams should for out a 20 million dollar per season multi year contract because they can.

 

Further many teams are now owned by wealth management billionaires; they’re the last group of people who are going to hand out 50 million dollars for non-contending club to win 75 games instead of 70.

 

Average MLB payroll is $135 million, down from $139 million in 2018 and $140 million in 2017.

 

As an employee, if you saw your employer cutting payroll, you might find that objectionable.

 

If players didn't gamble and refuse very generous one year qualifying offers almost unanimously, overall payroll would have been up not down. That's on them, not the owners.

 

There were only 7 qualifying offers issued last offseason, and 9 the previous year. Whether or not individual players accepted those offers has more to do with the state of free agency in general than the overall drop in industry payroll by $150 million.

[pacopete4]

I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?

 

Is that why teams are scoring runs at a record pace? Half of baseball is scoring at a 4.91 clip or higher and 13 teams are at 5 runs a game or more.

 

2019: 15

2018: 5

2017: 9

2016: 3

2015: 1

2014: 0

2013: 1

2012: 1

2011: 3

2010: 3

 

Dominating pitching being a problem seems about 5 years too late as an argument.

 

The change in the ball being used has more to do with that than anything. The mlb wanted more runs, they got their wish.

[madbad2000]

Lots of good discussion on this topic. I have not attended many games over the past 10 years. Part of that is that I'm not close to Milwaukee to see my team, but the main thing is that costs far exceed the benefit to me. As my family has grown, so do the number of tickets I need to purchase. I can get into the stadium with a cheap seat, but that is not that enjoyable to me anymore. The seats I want to sit in cost close to a hundo a piece. So that starts me off at $300 a game (soon to be $400 in the near future). That doesn't get me any food or drinks. I would argue that is one of the big drivers in reduced attendance. Next time you're at a game, take a peek at the dispersion of fans in the different sections (box seats, reserved, cheat seats, etc.) to see where people are buying and attending. I would bet that "middle class" of tickets are probably a bit more barren. Just a guess. I'd much rather go to a minor league game and sit in the box seats for $12-14 a piece. It also doesn't help that TV has become such a convenient way to watch a game without the huge costs. Cannibalizing ticket sales most likely.

 

Baseball has a few issues to deal with on both sides. First topic is dispersion of salary. Starts with what percentage goes to the player pool. Set a percentage and use that as the base. Owners and Players need to be honest and accept they both need each other. Owners do not have a business without players and vice versa. Second, fair playing field for team spending. You cannot keep this up with the vast difference between have and have nots of big and small markets. Third, make sure that spending is "uniform" with a cap and floor. Fourth, pay players across the board to include minor leaguers. It's sickening how little minor leaguers get paid. Pay them enough so that every player can focus on baseball 100% and not have to get part time jobs to survive. I'm fine with the level of control that teams have for developing players, but I'd like to see their salaries go up a bit. I really dislike the Arbitration process, this seems like it should be able to be simplified in terms of how to allot salaries. If you lower the years of team control, I would wager that you would see more of the service time manipulation to ensure you get the max performance at the cheapest rate. This means no learning at the MLB level. As a fan, I want to see the best and exciting players on the field. Need to find a way to make sure teams are not afraid to bring up their young guns and avoid having young stars toiling in AA/AAA instead of flashing their game at the MLB level.

[DuWayne Steurer]

The 92 brewers scored 4.56 runs per game while hitting 82 homers (which was 13th in the league... Not dead last) They wer 5th in the league in runs.

 

This year's club is scoring 4.74 runs a game with 155 homers in 91 games... So a pace of 276. And are 8th in the league in runs.

 

That's an extreme example but its pretty similar around the league. Scoring has its ebbs and flows but its generally 4 ish to 5 ish rpg. You'll have short eras like the 60s where scoring dips or the 90s where it jumps but whether its homers or bunts and steals the rpg is generally the same.

[MrTPlush]

So much complaining and expecting more. Minor league baseball is not a necessity to life. If you got a family to support, tough cookies...you made that decision and if it makes MiLB life hard then quit. Many people in everyday life (heck everyone) has to make tough decisions from time to time and might not do something they want to.

 

Who honestly is complaining about MiLB salaries down there? The next Mike Trout? No, it is life long career MiLB players. Leave if it isn't good enough, just like anyone in a normal job would. The supply of people to be MiLB filler greatly exceeds demand so there won't be big salary increases.

 

At least they get paid something for that opportunity. Many interns still work for free as slaves...most normal people go to college for four years, can't completely focus while there (part time job), and go $30,000+ in debt. Opportunities have costs, MiLB is an opportunity...not a job.

[KeithStone53151]

I've been pretty set on the salary cap/floor system of NFL, and virtually guarantee players a minimum of x% of the revenue along with significantly expanded revenue sharing. At the end of the day, that's the most fair thing for baseball...assuming both sides can agree on what x% is.

 

As for tanking teams...a significant chunk of that problem is players wanting to play on competitive teams. Look no further than Grandal and Moose taking less to play for the Brewers. Both were reportedly offered multi-year deals but both wanted a chance to win and took 1 year deals with the Brewers. This isn't an isolated incident either, players don't always take the most money.

[Brew crew 92]

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/sports/mlb/whatimhearing/2019/07/11/mlb-players-furious-willing-strike-over-economic-system/1708461001/

 

I wonder why that is ... maybe because there is no salary cap or revenue sharing like the NFL has. But, I don't think the players union wants either one of those things ... wah! wah! wah!

 

Huh? Obviously the players would love revenue sharing by the teams. I'm sure that would mean more money for them in the long run. It just isn't going to happen, and there isn't much the players could force to happen. How are they going to get the Dodgers to give the Brewers part of their local TV contract? They would be picking a fight with the hand that feeds them.

 

In 1994 the owners proposed sharing all broadcast revenues equally among the teams, granting free agency after four years of service time, as well as a salary cap and salary floor, and the players walked out on strike over it.

 

If your for the players in that they need to be better compensated; you for driving a knife into the back of teams like the Brewers. It’s hard enough for teams without a huge media market to win, when LA, NY, Houston and Chicago are spending twice what they are. To further widen the disparity between those teams by paying players more earlier in their careers, cutting their service time requirements before free agency, forcing teams to field mediocre clubs for no other reason than ‘tanking’ is frowned on by the MLBPA, means the Brewers will always be irrelevant turning over their roster every couple years as a talent incubator for the big clubs.

 

The George Steinbrenner owner who pours buckets of his own personal money into his team are all gone. Owners like Attanasio, Mark Walter, Bruce Sherman buy these teams because they’re the ultimate investment. Attanasio, for example, paid 223 million for the Brewers 15 years ago. Major League teams are now selling for close to one billion dollars. Meaning if he sold today he’d likely walk away with a 300-400% return on his money in just 15 years. Dumping his own money into the team only takes away from the return on his investment. Sure, a little here and there happens but it’s temporary and infrequent. That’s the way it is with all the wealth management executives buying up the teams, owning teams is an investment now not a rich person’s toy, and the players are just slow to realize it

 

Fantastic take.

Especially your description of the newer owners(last 15-20 yrs). Attanasio’s The poster child for that new type of owner. Promises made: bank $ in low payroll years to use when competitive. Instead of doing that he buys the Carolina franchise, new scoreboard, concessions, Spring Training rehab, etc., which increase the value of his franchise, which thanks to these investments has increased the team’s value to 1.2 billion, % wise one of the highest increase in ALL of baseball. So I’d say our wealth management owner is doing his JOB.

 

He also grew up a Dodger fan.

[Brew crew 92]

None of us have any idea how much the Brewers or any other team can afford in payroll. Your own recognition that the team value has skyrocketed during Attanasio's ownership suggests that they could have afforded more in payroll during that time.

 

Thank you for your voice of reason.

[MrTPlush]

Look no further than Grandal and Moose taking less to play for the Brewers. Both were reportedly offered multi-year deals but both wanted a chance to win and took 1 year deals with the Brewers.

 

That seems like a poor example because I would bet neither was very happy with their deal and think it is a sign of how broken the system. Both would argue they deserve a nice multi year deal and based on the past I would completely agree. I also don't think either passed on a good multi year deal to come sign with us for a one year deal...they can say that all they want, but I doubt it. I think Moustakas specifically made a fatal mistake of passing up one thinking he could get more only to be wrong. As far as Grandal I think we offered so much for one year it was worth the gamble.

 

But once again if teams don't want to sign these guys to big contracts like they did in the past, fine...but then there needs to be a shift of money to when players are younger. Having stupid cheap control for 6 years and then refuse to pay guys at 29/30+ is horrid considering most hit free agency at about 30 years old or slightly higher for college guys. There is a serious problem and a very legitimate grip by players if guys at 30+ are flat out not going to get long term deals. It will either get fixed so players get out sooner or more money in that six years of control. If not they will strike as they should. FA is becoming a nightmare for guys that are really good, but not yearly all star players.

[KeithStone53151]

Look no further than Grandal and Moose taking less to play for the Brewers. Both were reportedly offered multi-year deals but both wanted a chance to win and took 1 year deals with the Brewers.

 

That seems like a poor example because I would bet neither was very happy with their deal and think it is a sign of how broken the system. Both would argue they deserve a nice multi year deal and based on the past I would completely agree. I also don't think either passed on a good multi year deal to come sign with us for a one year deal...they can say that all they want, but I doubt it. I think Moustakas specifically made a fatal mistake of passing up one thinking he could get more only to be wrong. As far as Grandal I think we offered so much for one year it was worth the gamble.

 

I never really considered if saying they had multi-year offers was posturing or not. I think there have definitely been many other cases of players choosing less money over a desired location. This is much more of a thing in NBA/NFL but still happens in MLB as well. It's generally weird seeing players complain about bad teams when they are a significant part of the problem. That said, competitive balance is a bigger part of the reason.

[Pugger]

More Revenue sharing and salary cap.... that will take care of many of the player association's issues.

If the big markets object to this, as sure as is expected, then perhaps wiggle room ala the NBA and exceptions could be brought in. Perhaps exceptions to signing your own drafted players to FA deals could be worked in. Maybe a soft cap could be used, but then again, a luxury tax is sort of that right now.

 

Revenue sharing and a salary cap might work but it appears the players balked at that before.

[pacopete4]

 

Fantastic take.

Especially your description of the newer owners(last 15-20 yrs). Attanasio’s The poster child for that new type of owner. Promises made: bank $ in low payroll years to use when competitive. Instead On top of doing that he buys the Carolina franchise, new scoreboard, concessions, Spring Training rehab, etc., which increase the value of his franchise, which thanks to these investments has increased the team’s value to 1.2 billion, % wise one of the highest increase in ALL of baseball. So I’d say our wealth management owner is doing his JOB.

 

He also grew up a Dodger fan.

 

Fixed it for ya. And you leave out the part of all those things listed in your rant about MA is that they help the Brewers stay ahead or on par with many of the top franchises around the league. Without doing those things the Brewers would be the Tampa Rays or Oakland A’s of the MLB.

 

I also like the jab about him growing up a Dodgers fan as to question whether he really even cares about the Brewers. Solid but wouldn’t expect anything less I suppose.

[KeithStone53151]

More Revenue sharing and salary cap.... that will take care of many of the player association's issues.

If the big markets object to this, as sure as is expected, then perhaps wiggle room ala the NBA and exceptions could be brought in. Perhaps exceptions to signing your own drafted players to FA deals could be worked in. Maybe a soft cap could be used, but then again, a luxury tax is sort of that right now.

 

Revenue sharing and a salary cap might work but it appears the players balked at that before.

 

I find it so stupid that a salary cap/salary floor would be balked at by the players. I remember when Jeffress agent came in posting about collusion this offseason, he balked at anyone mentioning a cap/floor. A floor prevents teams like the Marlins/Pirates/A's, etc from having tiny payrolls and not trying to compete and guarantees them x% of the revenue. It honestly blows my mind that they wouldn't want this...but whatever, hopefully they can find something that works for all sides.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

Fantastic take.

Especially your description of the newer owners(last 15-20 yrs). Attanasio’s The poster child for that new type of owner. Promises made: bank $ in low payroll years to use when competitive. Instead On top of doing that he buys the Carolina franchise, new scoreboard, concessions, Spring Training rehab, etc., which increase the value of his franchise, which thanks to these investments has increased the team’s value to 1.2 billion, % wise one of the highest increase in ALL of baseball. So I’d say our wealth management owner is doing his JOB.

 

He also grew up a Dodger fan.

 

Fixed it for ya. And you leave out the part of all those things listed in your rant about MA is that they help the Brewers stay ahead or on par with many of the top franchises around the league. Without doing those things the Brewers would be the Tampa Rays or Oakland A’s of the MLB.

 

I also like the jab about him growing up a Dodgers fan as to question whether he really even cares about the Brewers. Solid but wouldn’t expect anything less I suppose.

 

It certainly appears that someone is taking notes while preparing for an messy "irreconcilable differences" type divorce later this season, doesn't it?

[JimH5]

I don't have a problem with Attanasio investing back into the franchise. He didn't just pocket the money.

 

I also don't have a problem with players exercising their rights to do better for themselves. They should take the best deal they can get.

 

If teams aren't going to spend on players in their 30s, then players should try to get more in their 20s.