Paul George traded to Clippers/Kawhi signs with LAC.

[tmwiese55]

Guys, all I said was that KAwhi didn't guard him one on one therefore he did not personally shut him down. I frankly don't know how that's debatable. The primary stat isn't at all what I'm talking about, technically you could have me guard him first and then if Kawhi and AD came to help me and shut him down then I'd be the primary defender who shut him. Obviously I know that's not accurate here, I'm just using it to point out the flaw in the stat.

 

Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the league, he was a huge factor in slowing/stopping Giannis and he deserves immense credit, especially since he had the O burden too. If they go one on one or don't give help though, Giannis would've put up gawdy stats. And I'd grant Kawhi could probably do best one on one than anyone else in the league. I'm merely stating it was a team D, not some personal shut down like the narrative is trying to become. This isn't what LBJ did to Rose in the 4th Q of playoff games and other examples.

 

This Clips D though, holy cow it could be ridiculous if they stay healthy.

[HiAndTight]

No matter how many good teams there are in the West, the Bucks only have to beat one of them in route to the championship.

 

 

Very true...and we SHOULD get out of the East. Philly has some really talented young guys and they're going to play really good defense and rebound well. Not sure who's gonna handle the ball or play guard.

 

I'm still a LITTLE worried about the Celtics even though they lose Kyrie and replaced him with a worse version in Kemba, but a MUCH better leader, better person and someone who doesn't believe the Earth is flat. So not an idiot. So chemistry may be better, but then you factor in they also lost Horford?

 

The question will be how much better Heyward looks and if he doesn't look better, with Stevens keep throwing him out there instead of budding young stars Tatum and Brown. And with Tatum, does he want to become a superstar or find himself as the guy putting up 22 on an 8 seed in the future by just deciding to shoot everytime.

 

I actually think now that the black hole that is Kyrie is gone, they'll move the ball more and be a ~50-ish win team and challenge the Sixers.

 

Bucks will play the Pacers in the 2nd round, beat the Sixers in the ECF's and then play in the finals.

[HiAndTight]

Guys, all I said was that KAwhi didn't guard him one on one therefore he did not personally shut him down. I frankly don't know how that's debatable. The primary stat isn't at all what I'm talking about, technically you could have me guard him first and then if Kawhi and AD came to help me and shut him down then I'd be the primary defender who shut him. Obviously I know that's not accurate here, I'm just using it to point out the flaw in the stat.

 

Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the league, he was a huge factor in slowing/stopping Giannis and he deserves immense credit, especially since he had the O burden too. If they go one on one or don't give help though, Giannis would've put up gawdy stats. And I'd grant Kawhi could probably do best one on one than anyone else in the league. I'm merely stating it was a team D, not some personal shut down like the narrative is trying to become. This isn't what LBJ did to Rose in the 4th Q of playoff games and other examples.

 

This Clips D though, holy cow it could be ridiculous if they stay healthy.

 

 

Ok, first of all, I don't think this was a very heated debate or anything. Just a difference of opinion.

 

Second, it's debatable because I believe you are wrong. I KNOW you're wrong when you say that Kawhi didn't guard him one on one, Kawhi did in fact start to defend Giannis more and more after game 2. You're saying that someone else started out on Kawhi and then Kawhi came over and helped out. No, not what I'm talking about at all. They put Kawhi on Giannis at times throughout the series. Again, as I said, not the whole seires, but for large stretches. I'm also saying when Kawhi defended him in the half court, he pretty much locked him up on his own. I realize that's a BIG statement, but he stripped Giannis a couple times, he blocked a shot, forced a jump ball and made Giannis tentative because he couldn't get around him and Kawhi was just as long. And no, I do not think Giannis would have put up "gaudy" stats vs Kawhi this past year when he was the only defender on him because he didn't in the limited time he was the only defender on him. There is empirical evidence of this beyond just anecdotal evidence and the eye test. I posted some, but don't really care to dig a whole lot deeper and go back and re-read other articles that were more in depth.

 

 

So...sorry, but I just don't agree with you. I think Kawhi shut him down. He did NOT get shut down when Siakam was the primary defender and then the help came. So what you're saying about how you could have been the primary defender and then Kawhi and whoever could have come, that's entirely different than what I'm talking about. I'm saying playing man defense, somehow Kawhi was able to lock up Giannis. Not how the Raptors slowed Giannis down with the Wall, or how Gasol and Ibaka were allowed to be more physical with Giannis because he's Giannis and he was less effective there. I'm straight up talking about half court sets, Giannis getting the ball at the elbow or top of the key, Kawhi defending him and Giannis not being able to do much. Certainly not put up gaudy stats. Something he was able to do vs Siakam.

 

And the 3 for 30 stat for example, that's not Kawhi starting out on Giannis and then Gasol coming over and blocking the shot. That's when Giannis' shooting during the regular season when Kawhi defended him. If you're owing this all to help defense, why wouldn't it be the same or similar when Siakam was on him? Siakam is a very good defender. But Giannis was actually better than he normally was against Siakam.

 

I don't really think this is worthy of much debate because you don't agree and you think it's crazy I disagree(that's fine, I take no offense) and Luke doesn't agree either. So we have different opinions. What I'm surprised if that YOU'RE that surprised that I have a different one from you. It's the conclusion a whole lot of people outside of that just about every "expert" or former player outside of Milwaukee also came to and the statistics back it up.

I'm also for the record not bothered by it because it really kinda exposed that while Giannis has come so far, he's still got SOOO much room to improve his game. His touch around the basket, his jumper, being forced to go to another move(which I have no doubt will force him to help further develop a counter and then a counter to their counter). So honestly I was just mostly impressed that Kawhi was able to do what he did on Giannis and I'm also not worried about it because I think Giannis is going to get better. But it's absolutely nothing like you starting out defending Giannis and then AD and someone else coming over and contesting the shot. It's Kawhi guarding Giannis, not allowing penetration and then him contesting the shot, deflecting a pass(or just forcing a pass) or blocking his shot/forcing a jump ball situation.

 

You can both acknowledge Giannis is the greatest young player the NBA has seen since LeBron and how much better he could get and also concede that Kawhi really just flat out dominated him(and Middleton) this series. I honestly didn't think that opinion would get much pushback from people who were watching every possession like I know the people on here were.

 

But I'm not gonna argue about it any longer because....well, I don't want to and it's not a fun topic. I don't want to post video's of what I'm talking about and then have to watch those video's that aren't fun. So look at the stats and good Kawhi's defense on Giannis or something about how they changed their defensive matchup's after game 2 or don't. It's frankly a depressing topic.

[HiAndTight]

Are there any realistic scenario's anyone can come up with in which the Bucks make a ballsy move and try to trade for a PG?

 

Right now I'm just spitballing, but Paul wants out of Houston, Westbrook wants out of OKC and wants to go to Miami.

 

We have a healthy TPE we could get to acquire a player. It can't be used in addition to others according to CHL and I'll take his word for it.

 

But just a hypothetical that would never happen.

 

Chris Paul is older and breaking down. He'd also clearly be the 2nd best player on this team and is really being just totally wasted as a player in Houston with Harden dominating the ball. d

 

 

 

So the mission, should someone choose to accept it, tell me how we could use the 15 million we have that we could use to acquire a player(I'm assuming if we have a 12 million PTE, 15 would be the highest we could go to match salaries) and use them and Bledsoe to trade to Houston, or just find a really good ball handler, doesn't have to be a PG, Hill can start and they can find another PG later when he gets bought out, even if it's a shooting guard who's a really good ball handler.

 

What players that may be available could we get and or, what would it take to pull off a Chris Paul trade? And I know it's nuts, I'm just speaking hypothetically. Bledsoe+whoever we were to acquire for ~10-15 million+Ersan for Paul.

 

I know it's never gonna happen, but we've got a while before the Bucks are back in Camp.

[nate82]

To be honest I would rather just stick with Hill and Bledsoe at PG than trade for a PG like Paul or others. If we could somehow get Beal from the Wizards that would be awesome but I don't believe the Bucks have the cap room nor the trade capital to make it happen.

[Dean Machine]

Paul George had both shoulders operated on so I think he's a question mark at best.

[HiAndTight]

Paul George had both shoulders operated on so I think he's a question mark at best.

 

 

A huge question mark AT BEST? Sure, if the question is "Will Paul George contend for the MVP again this season or just all NBA 1st team."

 

 

No, these are minor surgeries for an athlete like him. He's getting what amounts to maintenance. He played with these minor injuries and he was phenomenal with them.

 

It's really wishful thinking to believe that these surgeries are going to have much of an impact on George in the near future.

[HiAndTight]

To be honest I would rather just stick with Hill and Bledsoe at PG than trade for a PG like Paul or others. If we could somehow get Beal from the Wizards that would be awesome but I don't believe the Bucks have the cap room nor the trade capital to make it happen.

 

 

Well, Paul was a more fantastical pie in the sky type of suggestion. Beal is a guy we could definitely work out a deal for on our end, it's just a question of would the Wizards be interested in what we could offer in return.

 

 

But what I'm thinking about is how much can we trust Eric Bledsoe? Maybe he matures like Lowry did and he is able to perform in the playoffs. More likely to me he doesn't. Either way, George Hill is not a guy who you want playing more than ~20 MPG in the regular season and if you don't believe you can depend on Bled in the post-season, then finding another ball handler should be a priority at some point.

 

It obviously doesn't need to be an old, overpaid Chris Paul(though he's still a very good player and would be a great fit on this team IMO...especially if we could really do the whole load management thing with him). Nor does it mean you have to go out and get Bradley Beal(though I'd really be trying to get him as then you could have your #2 guy and people might appreciate Middleton more as the #3 option).

 

 

It's a long season and lots of names will come up. Those are just the only two big ones I can think of now(other than Westbrook and nobody really wants to see that I don't think) who have been talked about with regard to potential trades.

[tmwiese55]

Guys, all I said was that KAwhi didn't guard him one on one therefore he did not personally shut him down. I frankly don't know how that's debatable. The primary stat isn't at all what I'm talking about, technically you could have me guard him first and then if Kawhi and AD came to help me and shut him down then I'd be the primary defender who shut him. Obviously I know that's not accurate here, I'm just using it to point out the flaw in the stat.

 

Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the league, he was a huge factor in slowing/stopping Giannis and he deserves immense credit, especially since he had the O burden too. If they go one on one or don't give help though, Giannis would've put up gawdy stats. And I'd grant Kawhi could probably do best one on one than anyone else in the league. I'm merely stating it was a team D, not some personal shut down like the narrative is trying to become. This isn't what LBJ did to Rose in the 4th Q of playoff games and other examples.

 

This Clips D though, holy cow it could be ridiculous if they stay healthy.

 

 

Ok, first of all, I don't think this was a very heated debate or anything. Just a difference of opinion.

 

Second, it's debatable because I believe you are wrong. I KNOW you're wrong when you say that Kawhi didn't guard him one on one, Kawhi did in fact start to defend Giannis more and more after game 2. You're saying that someone else started out on Kawhi and then Kawhi came over and helped out. No, not what I'm talking about at all. They put Kawhi on Giannis at times throughout the series. Again, as I said, not the whole seires, but for large stretches. I'm also saying when Kawhi defended him in the half court, he pretty much locked him up on his own. I realize that's a BIG statement, but he stripped Giannis a couple times, he blocked a shot, forced a jump ball and made Giannis tentative because he couldn't get around him and Kawhi was just as long. And no, I do not think Giannis would have put up "gaudy" stats vs Kawhi this past year when he was the only defender on him because he didn't in the limited time he was the only defender on him. There is empirical evidence of this beyond just anecdotal evidence and the eye test. I posted some, but don't really care to dig a whole lot deeper and go back and re-read other articles that were more in depth.

 

 

So...sorry, but I just don't agree with you. I think Kawhi shut him down. He did NOT get shut down when Siakam was the primary defender and then the help came. So what you're saying about how you could have been the primary defender and then Kawhi and whoever could have come, that's entirely different than what I'm talking about. I'm saying playing man defense, somehow Kawhi was able to lock up Giannis. Not how the Raptors slowed Giannis down with the Wall, or how Gasol and Ibaka were allowed to be more physical with Giannis because he's Giannis and he was less effective there. I'm straight up talking about half court sets, Giannis getting the ball at the elbow or top of the key, Kawhi defending him and Giannis not being able to do much. Certainly not put up gaudy stats. Something he was able to do vs Siakam.

 

And the 3 for 30 stat for example, that's not Kawhi starting out on Giannis and then Gasol coming over and blocking the shot. That's when Giannis' shooting during the regular season when Kawhi defended him. If you're owing this all to help defense, why wouldn't it be the same or similar when Siakam was on him? Siakam is a very good defender. But Giannis was actually better than he normally was against Siakam.

 

I don't really think this is worthy of much debate because you don't agree and you think it's crazy I disagree(that's fine, I take no offense) and Luke doesn't agree either. So we have different opinions. What I'm surprised if that YOU'RE that surprised that I have a different one from you. It's the conclusion a whole lot of people outside of that just about every "expert" or former player outside of Milwaukee also came to and the statistics back it up.

I'm also for the record not bothered by it because it really kinda exposed that while Giannis has come so far, he's still got SOOO much room to improve his game. His touch around the basket, his jumper, being forced to go to another move(which I have no doubt will force him to help further develop a counter and then a counter to their counter). So honestly I was just mostly impressed that Kawhi was able to do what he did on Giannis and I'm also not worried about it because I think Giannis is going to get better. But it's absolutely nothing like you starting out defending Giannis and then AD and someone else coming over and contesting the shot. It's Kawhi guarding Giannis, not allowing penetration and then him contesting the shot, deflecting a pass(or just forcing a pass) or blocking his shot/forcing a jump ball situation.

 

You can both acknowledge Giannis is the greatest young player the NBA has seen since LeBron and how much better he could get and also concede that Kawhi really just flat out dominated him(and Middleton) this series. I honestly didn't think that opinion would get much pushback from people who were watching every possession like I know the people on here were.

 

But I'm not gonna argue about it any longer because....well, I don't want to and it's not a fun topic. I don't want to post video's of what I'm talking about and then have to watch those video's that aren't fun. So look at the stats and good Kawhi's defense on Giannis or something about how they changed their defensive matchup's after game 2 or don't. It's frankly a depressing topic.

 

First, you're fundamentally misunderstanding the "primary defender" stat and how it's done. You're interpreting as it saying he's the only defender and that's just not true. Again, if Kawhi initially guards and then when Giannis drives and is walled off by Gasol/Kawhi tandem then Kawhi is the primary defender on that stat. Which is fine, he still did a great job and it worked, but the narrative that "Kawhi shut him down" is just not accurate. And I really have no idea how you watched that series and thought Kawhi guarded him one on one, shocked actually. The D was Kawhi on him to start, and as soon as Giannis begins to go the other two big guys immediately crash to help and create a wall. It was that simple and it was not one on one.

 

Second, no I wasn't saying Kawhi was the help defender. I wrote that as an example to show the flaw in the stat, which you missed I guess. I know after game 2 he became the initial defender. At some point in there I think you pointed out media outlets or other areas agreeing with your take here that it was a one on one personal shutdown. That's essentially my point, talking head dumb media outlets have to simplify everything down and create narratives and they try to make this all star vs star rather than understanding how this is a team game and talking about real basketball. A couple years from now it'll be pumped into everyone's heads that Kawhi personally shut him down and it'll be remembered that way when it is just not accurate. Just like how ESPN has jammed it in everyone's head that MJ never missed a clutch shot, never passed at crunch time, or never lost a playoff game.

 

That said, I fully acknowledge Kawhi proved he was better. In nothing I wrote did I rip on Kawhi in any way. I also didn't owe it "all" to help D and I acknowledged repeatedly that Kawhi deserves credit and did a better job at it than anyone else could've. The areas of improvement you point out in Giannis I pretty much fully agree. Kawhi kicked his butt, no doubt about it but that doesn't mean things need to be exaggerated to create a talking head BS narrative. Think of it this simply, which of these phrases is most accurate: "Kawhi personally shut down Giannis" or "Kawhi was the leader of a team D utilizing tons of help from the 'bigs' as soon as Giannis began to drive in order to shut down Giannis". I, of course, say the latter is more accurate and I have no idea how anyone would disagree.

[tmwiese55]

While I'd like a better fit at PG too who is a better shooter. I don't think the current options do it for me. Paul and RW contracts are so much, then thrown in the other cost of acquiring and I don't think the improvement is enough to be worth it. Bled was their 2nd best regular season player and he's not a terrible shooter overall. Of course he got in his own head in the playoffs but he's still a good player. I'm sure he knows how he killed them so hopefully all he's focused on is shooting this offseason and now with 2 years of playoff experience under his belt that he'll be calmer next year and do better. I think they should find away to incorporate more PnR to play to his strength. That's what I'd be banking on now while of course having my eyes open for trades as they come up. A Beal trade in season would be the dream but I'm sure someone will trump us.

[HiAndTight]

Guys, all I said was that KAwhi didn't guard him one on one therefore he did not personally shut him down. I frankly don't know how that's debatable. The primary stat isn't at all what I'm talking about, technically you could have me guard him first and then if Kawhi and AD came to help me and shut him down then I'd be the primary defender who shut him. Obviously I know that's not accurate here, I'm just using it to point out the flaw in the stat.

 

Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the league, he was a huge factor in slowing/stopping Giannis and he deserves immense credit, especially since he had the O burden too. If they go one on one or don't give help though, Giannis would've put up gawdy stats. And I'd grant Kawhi could probably do best one on one than anyone else in the league. I'm merely stating it was a team D, not some personal shut down like the narrative is trying to become. This isn't what LBJ did to Rose in the 4th Q of playoff games and other examples.

 

This Clips D though, holy cow it could be ridiculous if they stay healthy.

 

 

Game 1-2 Kawhi played Giannis very little. Game 3 they changed and Kawhi played him almost half the possessions. The Bucks offensive rating dropped 20 points when they started playing Kawhi on Giannis more, on the 94 possessions in which Kawhi was the primary defender in the first 4 games of the post-season, Giannis made 7 shots.

 

When Siakam was the primary defender, he was much-much better. Better than average.

 

I don't need to be told that "primary defender," doesn't mean nobody else helps out. I understand things as simple as that. However when the Raptors used someone other than Kawhi Giannis was very effective. When they used Kawhi, he was not.

 

Kawhi shut down Giannis. Pretty straight forward.

 

 

I'm not "fundamentally" misunderstanding anything and only an absolute idiot would think that "Primary" would mean only. The very definition of the word tells you that. I think you're fundamentally wrong and I think it's fundamentally condescending to put words in people's mouths...

 

The facts from the series tell the story for anyone who didn't watch it. For anyone who did, you shouldn't even need those. Both bear out the truth. Kawhi effectively shut down Giannis when he defended him.

 

In Games 3 and 4, the Bucks offense has an offensive rating of 110.7 whenever their MVP hopeful is matched up against anyone other than Leonard. That number plummets to 88.0 whenever he's checked by Leonard.

Giannis himself is a completely different player. Against everyone not named Kawhi Leonard, he's 9-14 from the field with 10 assists and eight turnovers.

Against Kawhi? Just 5-19 with only two assists and four turnovers.

 

 

That's not a media narrative, that's just facts. Also, I never heard the narrative that Jordan never missed a clutch shot. In fact, I heard those tired old stats about how many of them he had to miss in order to make them. The old, "even the best fail," crap for the last 15 years now.

[OnTheBlack]

I can't believe this is going as deep as it is. Obviously whenever you're talking about a primary defender-defending the leagues MVP and most unstoppable player in the paint, you're going to have to assume that the bigs are going to come over and help.

 

The bigs, Gasol and Serge and Kawhi came over and helped when Siakam was defending Giannis. Giannis did just fine. Actually better than fine. Now when Kawhi was defending Giannis, Giannis did not do just fine.

 

I don't care about media narratives, in fact I particularly dreaded listening to them after many of the games in the ECF's as I knew they'd highlight how effective Kawhi was defending Giannis.

 

He was able to stop him without help on several possessions and on others, it just seemed like he got in Giannis' head. Giannis was rushing shots or pressing.

 

Giannis is 24 years old. He just got shut down, slowed down, whatever you want to say by the best on ball defender think I've ever seen. So that's now what he's preparing for this off-season. So I'd imagine he's going to focus on his weaknesses that much harder this off-season.

 

 

Also, Kawhi couldn't have been as effective without Nick Nurse implementing a really smart defensive strategy vs the Bucks and several Bucks players just disappearing. Brogdon was great in that series. Hill was great in that series for the most part. Not a lot of other guys knocking down 3's in the second half of those last 4 games. Also, their defense was very reliable. They didn't just all crash down on Giannis. They played the passing lanes.

 

A lot went into slowing down Giannis, but easily the biggest of those factors was switching Kawhi to Giannis for big chunks games 3-6. The Bucks were a completely different offense when Kawahi was on Giannis vs Siakam(who's also nearing that All-NBA defensive player status).

 

 

Bottom line. Kawhi=Playing the best he's likely ever going to play.

Giannis=Playing amazing, but still so many area's that he could improve, area's that should come naturally to him. He's already got a nice stroke. He's already shown nice touch around the basket. He just needs to get better at it and then nobody's gonna be able to stop him.

[OnTheBlack]

While I'd like a better fit at PG too who is a better shooter. I don't think the current options do it for me. Paul and RW contracts are so much, then thrown in the other cost of acquiring and I don't think the improvement is enough to be worth it. Bled was their 2nd best regular season player and he's not a terrible shooter overall. Of course he got in his own head in the playoffs but he's still a good player. I'm sure he knows how he killed them so hopefully all he's focused on is shooting this offseason and now with 2 years of playoff experience under his belt that he'll be calmer next year and do better. I think they should find away to incorporate more PnR to play to his strength. That's what I'd be banking on now while of course having my eyes open for trades as they come up. A Beal trade in season would be the dream but I'm sure someone will trump us.

 

 

We're talking about getting over the hump though and winning a title. He was clowned by Rozier a couple years ago. This past year he disappeared the whole series. I can only imagine how much worse that Boston series would have been had Smart been healthy.

 

The size of the contracts aren't a big deal. We'd be sending back about the same.

 

Westbrook, I don't think he makes us better unless he arrives with a completely different mentality. He's basically just a 6'4 Giannis. That's nice an all, but it hasn't translated to winning before except when he had Harden(5 times in the top 2 in MVP voting), KD(MVP, finals MVP) and Serge Ibaka, the ideal 4 on a team like that, a DPOY type player and one who can spread the floor. And they still couldn't get it done.

 

 

Paul-Totally different story. He's perfect for this team. Great 3 point shooter, still a good defender. His contract runs out in 2 years IIRC.

 

I'd definitely take Paul. And he'd make us a far better half court offensive team.

 

I don't think either are the least bit realistic, but Paul would make us better despite his age and his contract. Westbrook might, but I really doubt it. We would probably lead the league in FT's and points in the paint.

[tmwiese55]

It's really as simple as the last paragraph of the long post. I choose the second phrasing, apparently you guys think the first. I have no idea how someone can think it, but so be it. And again, in no way did I rip Kawhi or not say that he was absolutely critical in shutting down Giannis, I am merely saying to try and phrase at as one on personal shutdown is just false. This discussion reminds me of the Mark Cuban points he made ripping Skip Bayless after the Mavs beat Lebron, check it out on youtube if you haven't seen it yet. Really well said stuff.

 

I agree with Paul as clearly a better fit over Westbrook. However, contracts do matter in that yes they're roughly matching this year but it's the huge commitments going forward that are important. 40 mil per for RW for 4 years. Paul actually still has 3 years left on his for about 41 per and he's already 34 years old. Totally agree if you could trade Bled for Paul straight up just to play one bball game today that of course you'd take Paul, but the logistics on it in reality are very tough to get behind.

[HiAndTight]

It's really as simple as the last paragraph of the long post. I choose the second phrasing, apparently you guys think the first. I have no idea how someone can think it, but so be it. And again, in no way did I rip Kawhi or not say that he was absolutely critical in shutting down Giannis, I am merely saying to try and phrase at as one on personal shutdown is just false. This discussion reminds me of the Mark Cuban points he made ripping Skip Bayless after the Mavs beat Lebron, check it out on youtube if you haven't seen it yet. Really well said stuff.

 

I agree with Paul as clearly a better fit over Westbrook. However, contracts do matter in that yes they're roughly matching this year but it's the huge commitments going forward that are important. 40 mil per for RW for 4 years. Paul actually still has 3 years left on his for about 41 per and he's already 34 years old. Totally agree if you could trade Bled for Paul straight up just to play one bball game today that of course you'd take Paul, but the logistics on it in reality are very tough to get behind.

 

 

Yeah, I've seen the Cuban ripping on Bayless, I've seen the TO ripping Bayless, I've seen all of them. That has absolutely nothing to do with Kawhi and Giannis. IIRC, one of the things that Cuban took Bayless to task for was speaking in these vague generalities. Well, I gave you some pretty clear cut statistical evidence of how Kawhi defending Giannis changed the entire Bucks offense.

 

In Games 3 and 4, the Bucks offense has an offensive rating of 110.7 whenever their MVP hopeful is matched up against anyone other than Leonard. That number plummets to 88.0 whenever he's checked by Leonard.

Giannis himself is a completely different player. Against everyone not named Kawhi Leonard, he's 9-14 from the field with 10 assists and eight turnovers.

Against Kawhi? Just 5-19 with only two assists and four turnovers.

 

These are facts. They're not Skip terms like "shrinking from the moment," or "disappearing," one of his favorite lines.

 

This is what happened when Kawhi defended Giannis. It had nothing to do with Giannis' effort level, it had everything to do with one of the couple guys in the league, maybe thee only guy now who can match Giannis' length, his quickness and who's more experienced.

 

I don't understand how people could have watched that series and say that Kawhi didn't lock Giannis up. Atfter Kawhi forced some turnovers, Giannis changed the way he attacked down low. He didn't play the same.

 

When they played Boston mainly Horford, but Horford, Morris,Bayne and others created a wall for Giannis, he found ways around that. He wasn't able to find a way around a guy who is as long as he is, who's stronger than he is at this point in his career when he does have the post moves to get him off balance or the touch to hit that little 12 foot fadeaway.

 

It'll come, but it wasn't there in the ECF's. And Skip Bayless is the last person I ever want to hear or see or listen to.

 

 

If you want an actual reference about the impact Kawhi had on Giannis and the Bucks, go over to 538. They had some articles that outlined the impact for the entire series as well as the regular season.

[HiAndTight]

To be honest I would rather just stick with Hill and Bledsoe at PG than trade for a PG like Paul or others. If we could somehow get Beal from the Wizards that would be awesome but I don't believe the Bucks have the cap room nor the trade capital to make it happen.

 

 

Well, they don't have cap room and they're not likely to have cap room for years to come(at least if things go right they're not).

 

But they could have had the assets and the means to make that trade had they not gone cheap...again, assuming it's in fact true and they didn't get the TPE because they didn't clear another 700K from their cap. I'm willing to bet they could have gone back to Middleton and asked him to take 700K less this year. They probably could have done a dozen things in order to make it happen.

 

Really hoping it's BS though and they do in fact have the TPE. I'd like to see a course from Twins saying they don't...unless it's something he heard reported. But as of now I'm just annoyed. They could get it and never use it and nobody would have been the wiser. They could have gotten it, used it in a 3 team trade and stayed under the cap.

 

Why handcuff your GM by taking that option away.

[tmwiese55]

 

It's really as simple as the last paragraph of the long post. I choose the second phrasing, apparently you guys think the first. I have no idea how someone can think it, but so be it. And again, in no way did I rip Kawhi or not say that he was absolutely critical in shutting down Giannis, I am merely saying to try and phrase at as one on personal shutdown is just false. This discussion reminds me of the Mark Cuban points he made ripping Skip Bayless after the Mavs beat Lebron, check it out on youtube if you haven't seen it yet. Really well said stuff.

 

I agree with Paul as clearly a better fit over Westbrook. However, contracts do matter in that yes they're roughly matching this year but it's the huge commitments going forward that are important. 40 mil per for RW for 4 years. Paul actually still has 3 years left on his for about 41 per and he's already 34 years old. Totally agree if you could trade Bled for Paul straight up just to play one bball game today that of course you'd take Paul, but the logistics on it in reality are very tough to get behind.

 

 

Yeah, I've seen the Cuban ripping on Bayless, I've seen the TO ripping Bayless, I've seen all of them. That has absolutely nothing to do with Kawhi and Giannis. IIRC, one of the things that Cuban took Bayless to task for was speaking in these vague generalities. Well, I gave you some pretty clear cut statistical evidence of how Kawhi defending Giannis changed the entire Bucks offense.

 

In Games 3 and 4, the Bucks offense has an offensive rating of 110.7 whenever their MVP hopeful is matched up against anyone other than Leonard. That number plummets to 88.0 whenever he's checked by Leonard.

Giannis himself is a completely different player. Against everyone not named Kawhi Leonard, he's 9-14 from the field with 10 assists and eight turnovers.

Against Kawhi? Just 5-19 with only two assists and four turnovers.

 

These are facts. They're not Skip terms like "shrinking from the moment," or "disappearing," one of his favorite lines.

 

This is what happened when Kawhi defended Giannis. It had nothing to do with Giannis' effort level, it had everything to do with one of the couple guys in the league, maybe thee only guy now who can match Giannis' length, his quickness and who's more experienced.

 

I don't understand how people could have watched that series and say that Kawhi didn't lock Giannis up. Atfter Kawhi forced some turnovers, Giannis changed the way he attacked down low. He didn't play the same.

 

When they played Boston mainly Horford, but Horford, Morris,Bayne and others created a wall for Giannis, he found ways around that. He wasn't able to find a way around a guy who is as long as he is, who's stronger than he is at this point in his career when he does have the post moves to get him off balance or the touch to hit that little 12 foot fadeaway.

 

It'll come, but it wasn't there in the ECF's. And Skip Bayless is the last person I ever want to hear or see or listen to.

 

 

If you want an actual reference about the impact Kawhi had on Giannis and the Bucks, go over to 538. They had some articles that outlined the impact for the entire series as well as the regular season.

 

 

Shoot, I honestly meant to clarify on the Skip thing but seems like I forgot, sorry. I meant to point out that yes you're still talking real bball so not the same at all as him. But just the oversimplifying it down to this one on one narrative to create a clear talking point star vs star made me think of it. And then I just thought to point it out to watch if you haven't.

 

For this discussion I really just don't think it's worth as it seems you're ignoring everything I say so we can just move on. For the 12th time, yes Giannis was shut down and yes Kawhi was absolutely instrumental in it. pointing to stats of it do nothing, I know it, everyone knows. I'm not disagreeing. You're trying to chalk it up to one guy, I'm chalking it up to him and the team help scheme around him in unison. That's it.

 

What they were smart on was not initially guarding him with a big (then smaller guys like Kawhi or whoever else come to help) like Bos did and what Tor did first two games. They were smart to have Kawhi become the initial and then have the bigs come to help, it was genius as due to Kawhi being quicker than bigs it didn't give him that initial burst/gap to the hoop and then it was too late to stop him. I have to think others will try this model now, for example in hindsight Bos should've had say Morris guard and then Horford and the next biggest guys as the help. To repeat again, yes Kawhi can do that better than anyone else and deserves big credit, he's the best wing defender since Pippen/MJ. It's just not accurate to call it personal shutdown if as soon as the guy gets the ball two other guys are coming to help. Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol also deserve huge credit. That is all I'm saying. Go back to the long post with the two phrases, I choose the latter. you choose the first, so be it.

 

Moving on, I think I and others mentioned here that what Philly put together seems almost purely to stop Giannis with this strategy. Bucks have to be ready and Giannis absolutely needs to take yet another step and handle it. And of course Bled just has to be better so he can't be left alone. Or if they do instead of shooting 3s he can also attack the rim, which he's good at, to get a shot or to create a wide open 3 for a better shooter.

[HiAndTight]

 

Shoot, I honestly meant to clarify on the Skip thing but seems like I forgot, sorry. I meant to point out that yes you're still talking real bball so not the same at all as him. But just the oversimplifying it down to this one on one narrative to create a clear talking point star vs star made me think of it. And then I just thought to point it out to watch if you haven't.

 

For this discussion I really just don't think it's worth as it seems you're ignoring everything I say so we can just move on. For the 12th time, yes Giannis was shut down and yes Kawhi was absolutely instrumental in it. pointing to stats of it do nothing, I know it, everyone knows. I'm not disagreeing. You're trying to chalk it up to one guy, I'm chalking it up to him and the team help scheme around him in unison. That's it.

 

What they were smart on was not initially guarding him with a big (then smaller guys like Kawhi or whoever else come to help) like Bos did and what Tor did first two games. They were smart to have Kawhi become the initial and then have the bigs come to help, it was genius as due to Kawhi being quicker than bigs it didn't give him that initial burst/gap to the hoop and then it was too late to stop him. I have to think others will try this model now, for example in hindsight Bos should've had say Morris guard and then Horford and the next biggest guys as the help. To repeat again, yes Kawhi can do that better than anyone else and deserves big credit, he's the best wing defender since Pippen/MJ. It's just not accurate to call it personal shutdown if as soon as the guy gets the ball two other guys are coming to help. Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol also deserve huge credit. That is all I'm saying. Go back to the long post with the two phrases, I choose the latter. you choose the first, so be it.

 

Moving on, I think I and others mentioned here that what Philly put together seems almost purely to stop Giannis with this strategy. Bucks have to be ready and Giannis absolutely needs to take yet another step and handle it. And of course Bled just has to be better so he can't be left alone. Or if they do instead of shooting 3s he can also attack the rim, which he's good at, to get a shot or to create a wide open 3 for a better shooter.

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. Because the rest of those guys were still doing the same things when another elite or near elite defender Siakam was the primary defender in Giannis. Yet Giannis was still dominant. The only thing that changed and then ultimately changed the series was when Kawhi was switched to Giannis. All the pieces stay the same except for one. Who do you give credit to in that scenario? Rather who do you give almost all the credit to?

 

The other players always play a role. But when everything stays the same except for one player and then the Bucks whol offense changes, I think you can attribute that to one player. Giannis had to navigate a long and extremely athletic Siakam, Gasol/Ibaka and Kawhi and he dominated. When it became Kawhi and then Siakam and Gasol/Ibaka(As the two didn't play together much) he struggled BADLY. So yes, I choose the second option. I think the other guys where there the whole time and it wasn't until Kwahi started defending him that things changed. We seem to keep agreeing to disagree and then continuing to disagree about it.

 

Also, nobody's paying me. I'm not breaking anything down to try and create a talking point. I'm simply saying what I believe happened and it's not something that I enjoy saying at all. If I was Skip Bayless, I'd stick my head in the sand and deny it happened because it was "my guy" who got beat. Kinda like what he did all series by refusing to give Kawhi any credit because he left SA and forced his way out.

 

 

And no, I don't think Boston could have done it with Morris. This wasn't a case where they were slowing Giannis down and then meeting at the rim. It was a case of one player being able to stop Giannis penetrating and forcing Giannis to go to something he wasn't comfortable with. Giannis beats Morris and probably just about every other defender with his first step(a LOONG first step) and makes him look like a fool. Hell, they tried doing that with long and more athletic players like Tatum and it didn't work. Only one team made it work because of one player. Honestly, if Boston WAS going to try and do it, Smart would have been their best options.

 

As for Bledsoe, he's an elite PG at penetrating and finishing at the rim and on Defense. IN the post-season though, it was if he was afraid of getting his shot blocked. Instead of keeping the ball high and going up strong, either getting the foul or absorbing the contact and finishing through it, he'd turn his body and...well, I don't know what the hell he was doing. He'd fling it up there from these odd angles falling away. The guy goes up there and put the ball high off the glass against bigs all regular season long and just couldn't come close to doing the same thing in the playoffs. I fhe could do that, I'm sure the shot would start falling more.

 

If he can just play his regular season style, and relax, the Bucks can start with Him, any one of 4-5 different options now in the backcourt with him and then Middleton, Giannis and Lopez. That allows Hill to come off the bench and either run the second unit or even play off of Bledsoe. Either work, as Bledsoe can guard bigger guard due to his strength and Hill, can defend PG's pretty well...as long as he's not playing 30 MPG for a long stretch.

 

Still, I was REALLY hoping for a Quinn Cook or Troy Daniels type signing. I don't know if Cook signed for a minimum deal and if so, he likely wasn't coming here anyway, but I know Daniels did, and had the Bucks been aggressive, they could have had a 6'4 PG who can shot the lights out. Of course he's more of a catch and shoot guy and not really a great passer, he's another ball handler. And Cook is a very good ball handler and a very good shooter. And then Korver is available and interested in the Bucks. I guess. He can't really do anything else anymore, but if he can hit 43 pct of his 3 point shots, he just needs to catch and shoot.

 

Either one of those guys would have been great additions.

[tmwiese55]

Soooooo, you're saying it was a team defense and the help guys were there and not a personal shutdown, OK. Haha.

 

Note, I didn't mean to imply it would've worked for Boston. And I said Kawhi is for sure best at this. I meant just as an example of future changes we might see in how he's defended. In the Boston example, instead of them going Horford as initial maybe after seeing what Tor did that in hindsight they'd have tried this route and teams in the future might try it and we'll see how it works. By no means saying anyone will execute as well as Kawhi could as the focal point though.

 

Yea Quinn Cook would've been an interesting bench option. I agree there. And in general I'd have preferred that depth PG (like a Cook or Curry type) to have been attained with the exception used for Robin. But, I also see the bird in the hand argument that you had him for sure and at a very cheap discount deal.