Paul George traded to Clippers/Kawhi signs with LAC.

[OnTheBlack]

And I was worried about Kawhi going to LAL and playing with what have been AD and aging LeBron and virtually zero depth.

 

Instead, arguably the two best wing defenders join up with a young and deep Clippers team that also has defensive stalwart Patrick Beverly manning the point.

 

The cost;

Paul George for

 

First round picks 2022/2024/2026 picks all unprotected, their unprotected 2021 and protected 2023 first-round picks via Miami.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Danilo Gallinari.

 

So they pay a whole lot to get Paul George, but it was really a trade for Kawhi and George. The best player in the league right now(IMO) in Kawhi and a top 10 player, probably higher than that, but firmly in the top 10.

 

They have a ridiculous defense as well now. Starting should be Beverly at the PG, one of the top defensive PG's in the league, if not the best and an extremely versatile one. Thee best defensive wing I've seen play in 20+ years of watching basketball in Kawhi and another All NBA defender in 6'9 Paul George. Oh, and they can score as well.

 

Starting lineup should be

PG-Beverly

SG-??? They do have perennial 6th man of the year winner Lou Williams at the 2.

SF-Kawhi

PF-George-Not that it really matters...position-less basketball and whatnot. We've seen what Kawhi can do with a guy like Giannis and Paul George again, while not being nearly as good of a defender as Kawhi is still one of the best.

C- Zubac, the guy the Lakers gave away to the Clippers at the deadline last year.

 

And they'll add some guys. Probably whoever they want that's left on the FA market.

 

They'll be a problem for years to come.

 

And yet again, Jerry West is instrumental in helping to put the pieces in place to build a dynasty. He did it with the Lakers and their reign, he did it in Golden State, he's one of the best shooting guards in NBA history.

 

Is there a more successful person in NBA history than the logo? How he continues to pull things like this off...it's just beyond me. He didn't wait like the Lakers did, even after they believed they wouldn't be able to sign two max players, they went out and locked up Beverly when Sacremento asked for more. Probably a big part of the reason they were willing to part with budding star Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, they're extremely talented 6'6 PG because they had a lock down defender and a guy who's a 40 pct 3 point shooter in Beverly, and a guy who got in Durants head while defending him and can defend just about any PG's.

 

 

The Bucks are not the favorites IMO to go to represent the East in the Finals. The problem is they're looking at running into an a potential buzzsaw in the Clipps and one that matches up just way too perfectly with the Bucks. Our best three players(best regular season players anyway) Giannis, Middleton and Bledsoe will be defended by Kawhi, George and Beverly.

 

They also have a coach in Doc Rivers and an organization that traded their best player away in a playoff season because they knew they weren't going to retain him and still managed to push the Warriors to 6. They probably have 2 of the top 7 players, 1 of the top 3-4 coaches, a good bench, and one of the best front offices in the NBA, and the richest owner who's not going to scoff at going as far into the luxury tax as he needs to in the upcoming years.

 

I know this is way premature to talk about a Bucks-Clippers finals, but before this move, I couldn't see a team that was clearly a full step ahead of the Bucks. If Kawhi went back to Toronto, that was a coin flip. The Sixers have a lot of bigs, but they have nothing at guard.

LAL and Brooklyn are both a year away with LeBron and AD not having any depth around them and really just 2.5 players(LeBron, AD and Kuzma).

 

 

This also seems like a pretty astute move by Sam Presti of the Thunder. They had two superstars, it wasn't working, so they decided to move on from their plan and go all in on a true young stud(but also a PG) and a really good stretch 4.

 

You'd have to assume they'd be 100 pct willing to ship out Westbrook and probably not even look for that much. They're rebuilding now and Westbrook is starting a supermax contract that will pay him 38 and is one year into a 5 year 207 million dollar deal that will have him earning nearly 50 million in the final year of that deal that will take him through age 33. Though the final year is a player option. I like Westbrook, I like his mentality, his aggressiveness, but this isn't meant to suggest the Bucks should try to make a play for him. I guess I could see a scenario in which he plays with Giannis, a scenario in which he's willing to defer more and not dominate the ball so much, but he's not a great 3 point shooter, he's a guy who relies on athleticism and as such is a guy who very well could see his production drop off significantly in the next couple years.

 

 

The Bucks have a lot to prove. They'll need Giannis to come back and have taken another step forward, they need the young guys in Wilson, Brown, DDV to all click and really perform well.

 

Of course there are 82 games to be played from now until then as well as a tough Western Conference, but it's pretty safe to say this is one of those NBA altering moves only LeBron has been able to pull off in recent years.

 

But...AGAIN, Giannis still hasn't hit his prime. This dude is actually still improving. Who knows what he ends up being!

[OnTheBlack]

CoolhandLuke, I'll happily listen to you argue with me! In fact, I want you to. Please tell me why the Clippers aren't as good as I'm fearing and why this team isn't as good as I'm thinking they'll be?

[HiAndTight]

CoolhandLuke, I'll happily listen to you argue with me! In fact, I want you to. Please tell me why the Clippers aren't as good as I'm fearing and why this team isn't as good as I'm thinking they'll be?

 

 

I don't presume to speak for CHL, but the Clippers just traded away one of the better young PG's in the NBA, they gave up a ton of draft capital(so at least they won't keep finding these gems) and most importantly, they play in the West while we play in the East.

 

Also, I think Paul George is overrated. Sure, he's top 10, but he's closer to 10 and Giannis is real close to #1. Just add that mid-range shot and some moves around the basket. That floater that disappeared on him in the post-season last year, a turnaround and he could easily be the best in the league next year.

 

Plus, the Bucks have a pretty good coach and front office as well and....well, anything can happen. Best I can do in looking for the upside here.

[coolhandluke121]

CoolhandLuke, I'll happily listen to you argue with me! In fact, I want you to. Please tell me why the Clippers aren't as good as I'm fearing and why this team isn't as good as I'm thinking they'll be?

 

I don't argue with people because of who they are or because of past interactions. Heck, I hardly even notice who is posting. I argue for what I believe.

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Kawhi and Paul George are amazing. Some of my most heated past arguments have been about Harden vs. Giannis, so you know how much I value defense... among other issues with Harden.

 

I would give Kawhi the defensive edge over anyone since Pippen on the wing. Paul George, Iguodala, and Tony Allen are decent.

 

The Clippers are a tough match-up for the Bucks because of small-ball, but they don't have bigs like Gasol, Siakam, and Ibaka. I think it's revisionist of the media and fans to stay Kawhi stopped Giannis; aside from a few highlight blocks, he mostly just slowed him down enough for the help defender to come. The great defensive rotations of their bigs, especially Gasol, was the biggest factor. Gasol is an incredible defender. Not as athletic as Hakeem or Robinson, but he's a true savant with his rotations and timing.

 

Kudos to OKC for basically giving up on winning with Westbrook and George. Westbrook is extremely flawed IMO. I don't think it matters much where they trade him. They would be very lucky just to get rid of his salary. He's just not a fit on a contender, which is a big reason Durant left in the first place. His fit is putting up gaudy numbers to carry a mediocre team to the playoffs, but sometimes the hand you hold is the hand that holds you down; he just isn't a great fit on most contenders that don't need him to play so much hero-ball.

 

I don't like how the East always stays weak. I kind of wanted Kawhi to stay so they could have a rematch next year. I look for Indiana to be a huge threat, just because of how good I think Oladipo is. It will take time for him to return to form, but if he's good by the playoffs, their seed won't matter much.

[pacopete4]

Well Giannis has no excuses anymore. The East is back to being the redhead step sister.

[adambr2]

I don't see how this could have worked out better for the Bucks. Kawhi is gone, and so the East is right there for the taking.

 

I don't see any point in worrying about the Clippers -- not yet. There's been a lot of competitive balance restored in the West with this, and between the Clips, Lakers and Warriors, we don't even know who will represent the West in the finals at this point.

[HiAndTight]

CoolhandLuke, I'll happily listen to you argue with me! In fact, I want you to. Please tell me why the Clippers aren't as good as I'm fearing and why this team isn't as good as I'm thinking they'll be?

 

I don't argue with people because of who they are or because of past interactions. Heck, I hardly even notice who is posting. I argue for what I believe.

 

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Kawhi and Paul George are amazing. Some of my most heated past arguments have been about Harden vs. Giannis, so you know how much I value defense... among other issues with Harden.

 

I would give Kawhi the defensive edge over anyone since Pippen on the wing. Paul George, Iguodala, and Tony Allen are decent.

 

The Clippers are a tough match-up for the Bucks because of small-ball, but they don't have bigs like Gasol, Siakam, and Ibaka. I think it's revisionist of the media and fans to stay Kawhi stopped Giannis; aside from a few highlight blocks, he mostly just slowed him down enough for the help defender to come. The great defensive rotations of their bigs, especially Gasol, was the biggest factor. Gasol is an incredible defender. Not as athletic as Hakeem or Robinson, but he's a true savant with his rotations and timing.

 

Kudos to OKC for basically giving up on winning with Westbrook and George. Westbrook is extremely flawed IMO. I don't think it matters much where they trade him. They would be very lucky just to get rid of his salary. He's just not a fit on a contender, which is a big reason Durant left in the first place. His fit is putting up gaudy numbers to carry a mediocre team to the playoffs, but sometimes the hand you hold is the hand that holds you down; he just isn't a great fit on most contenders that don't need him to play so much hero-ball.

 

I don't like how the East always stays weak. I kind of wanted Kawhi to stay so they could have a rematch next year. I look for Indiana to be a huge threat, just because of how good I think Oladipo is. It will take time for him to return to form, but if he's good by the playoffs, their seed won't matter much.

 

 

I agree with everything you said BUT...I think Kawhi's even better than Pippen and I do think he did shut Giannis down when he was on him and he stiffled Middleton all series long when he was on him.

 

Sure, Gasol is a great defender(and Serge is still elite as well). But Kawhi's length, his strength and his quickness gave Giannis fits even before or when he didn't get help.

 

Now HE didn't shut Giannis down because he wasn't on him most of the time, most of the time it was the bigs and Giannis being a little too aggressive(as young Superstars almost always are) and attacking and getting a little out of control. Hardly something you knock him for, just part of the learning curve(plus the Raptors did a great job playing the passing lanes so when he'd normally kick it out to a shooter, they anticipated that and really created deflection and or turnovers. But when he was on Giannis, Giannis really couldn't do anything. He had him locked up pretty good. I think Coach Bud is gonna have to find more creative ways to get ball movement in the half court and get Giannis on the block and Giannis is also going to have to work on his game down there. He does need a little more than in his repertoire than what he currently has if he wants to jump into that next level. Like how LeBron improved his low post game and his jumper, how Jordan evolved from the high flyer who attacked relentlessly to the guy who to later in his career developed one of the most unstoppable fadaways in the game. Giannis needs a couple moves and that little half hook-shot put thing he does, that's fine, but he's at least gotta get better at it.

 

But Kawhi's the only guy you can put on Giannis without help in this league and Giannis isn't going to find a way to be effective and at least somewhat efficient. At least that's been the case thus far. I do agree that the Kawhi vs Giannis thing was a bit overblown, but primarily because Kawhi just wasn't on Giannis most of the time. When he was, he made life real hard for him.

 

Westbrook would be a great PG if he could actually play a little slower. He is a great passer, obviously he's got a lot of bounce and he can get to the basket, but he was not very good this past year.

 

The ONE thing is I do think Paul George is just a little bit overrated. I think he's great. I agree he's a top 10 player, but there's a sizeable game right now in MY opinion between Kawhi, LeBron and Giannis and the rest of the NBA. Especially with Durant hurt. Not over 82 games, but in a series or in the post-season. LeBron's still the freakishly gifted athlete he's always been, Kawhi is amazing with those long arms, big hands and his strength, his physical skills, but it's how calm he is. Even while defending. It just looks so easy for him.

 

But whatever, Kawhi missed most of the year two years ago, the Warriors were supposed to win this year with ease a year ago at this time and the Celtics were probably the overwhelming favorites to come out of the East. They've got good players, but they haven't started the grind and done anything yet.

 

Still, I'm with you, I'd really wish Kawhi woulda stayed in Toronto. He had a championship team there, he was more than making up for the tax burden(especially now that he moved to LA) with the free condo and everything else. And he could have elevated himself and his legacy by staying, being THEE superstar on the team, not one of the superstars and continued to battle.

 

It would have been better for the league. More parity. More really good teams who have a real chance.

 

 

As for Westbrook, I do wonder how differently his career goes and how differently he's looked at if OKC just decides to pay the luxury tax and don't low ball Harden? They offered him a few million less than the max and gave him an hour to decide and then traded him when he hadn't yet decided. That was a team coming off a finals appearance, homegrown, KD, Harden, Westbrook and Serge. Maybe they grow together, Westbrook doesn't become such a high usage player who doesn't really make players around him better. Instead, while he still dominates the ball, OKC builds a true dynasty to compete with LeBron's teams. It really wouldn't have taken much. I think the difference was less than 10 million over the 4 years.

The "what if's" will kill any team. What if we'd taken Sabonis over Thon.

 

I'm gonna bet Westbrook ends up playing for the Knicks. Just because it's the perfect place for him. He can put up 30/10/10 and win 30 games a year.

[HiAndTight]

I don't see how this could have worked out better for the Bucks. Kawhi is gone, and so the East is right there for the taking.

 

I don't see any point in worrying about the Clippers -- not yet. There's been a lot of competitive balance restored in the West with this, and between the Clips, Lakers and Warriors, we don't even know who will represent the West in the finals at this point.

 

 

I think it works out better for the Bucks if Kawhi stays in Toronto. We can beat that team. We had them on the ropes.

 

The Clippers are a much-much more talented team and if you're just looking at it as a whole, not just winning the East, but the title, there's now one team that's far-far more talented than any of the other teams. And I don't thnk the Warriors or the Lakers are much of a problem at this point for the Clippers. LAL has no depth. They bet it all on Kawhi and lost. And the Warriors will be without Klay most of the year and I think DeAngelo Russell is a fine PG and Curry's great, but they've lost too much.

 

 

I hope you're right, but a superteam with a super coach and a great ownership, front office, etc...it hurts our odds at winning a title. Maybe it helps our odds at reaching one, but not winning one.

[monkeyman343434]

OnTheBlack, serious question, are you related to Patrick Beverly?

[HiAndTight]

Well Giannis has no excuses anymore. The East is back to being the redhead step sister.

 

 

Well, the Sixers, especially if they find a gem or two at the guard spots, and they do have some young talent there are a really good team. Maybe not a better team than last year, but Horford, Simmons and Embid are all gonna start for them. That's a hellacious defensive backcourt.

 

Whoever else starts, they'll have a 6'9 guy as they're second smallest player.

 

I don't trust Embid, but if he somehow magically decides to get in shape this year, they're even scarier. I don't think it'll happen and I think he's going to end up injured again, but if not, that Sixers team is really good. That's really the only team I see as of now that could knock them off on paper as of now.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to say he's got no excuses anymore. It's not like he's KG and hasn't been able to get his team out of the first round well into his career. And it's not like he's a guy that makes excuses. I get what you're saying, the East is wide open for him, but it's not like people have made excuses for him or he has for himself. He's improved so much every year, I think he's well ahead of where anyone could have predicted.

[OnTheBlack]

OnTheBlack, serious question, are you related to Patrick Beverly?

 

 

Really? That's a "serious question?"

 

I'm guessing I'd have spelled his name right if I was related to him. I think you've also gone to this well a few too many times now. First it was because I undervalued what he may get before the ridiculous contracts started being handed out(Beverly, Rubio and Rondo were all talked about being MLE type guys...yet even Rubio got 3/51). I'm also hardly the only one who's mentioned him on here.

Did I say anything about him you actually disagree with?

 

Do you think the Clippers felt better about trading the guy who was likely going to start at PG over him and a potential young all star in Shai Gilgeous-Alexander if they didn't have him to turn to?

Is he NOT pretty much the ideal PG on a team that has superstar wings who dominate the ball as he's a player who's a 40 pct 3 point shooter and an elite defensive player?

 

Also, this is a thread about the Clippers making moves. So...seems kinda on message to mention the players they already have around George and Kawhi.

 

Thanks for the "serious question" though.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

The West is going to be an absolute war. Kawhi leaving Toronto means the Bucks can't face him until the 4th round of the playoffs. A lot can happen. One less obstacle in the East helps the Bucks chances of making the Finals where anything is possible.

[HiAndTight]

The West is going to be an absolute war. Kawhi leaving Toronto means the Bucks can't face him until the 4th round of the playoffs. A lot can happen. One less obstacle in the East helps the Bucks chances of making the Finals where anything is possible.

 

That's absolutely true. Look at the Warriors to start the playoffs, KD playing great, they were healthy. By the finals, two superstars were down with devastating injuries, Looney was hurt, Igudola was injured and they were trying to milk minutes out of either young guys with little experience or vets ready to retire like Livingston.

 

Maybe the Lakers don't beat them, maybe they just beat them up in a long series.

[HiAndTight]

OnTheBlack, serious question, are you related to Patrick Beverly?

 

 

The only person on here who seems as concerned with Beverely as ontheblack is you. You mentioned him quite a few times. Do you not like the guy for some reason?

 

I know I'm a fan. Especially after watching him in Houston and now with the Clippers and what he does to his opponents. The Warriors were whining that the guy about 10 inches shorter than KD was being too physical with him when he was getting posted up.

 

I'd happily trade Bledsoe for him.

[coolhandluke121]

Kawhi did a good job against Giannis but I think Giannis could have set up closer to the basket and used a size advantage if not for Ibaka or Gasol always being ready to help. In any case, the point remains that the Clippers don't have nearly the same defensive presence at the 4 or 5. Murder on the perimeter though. Can't hide anyone on Danny Green against them.

 

I don't really agree with the "no excuses for Giannis" mindset. The only "excuse" he needs is the fact the entire rest of the roster has 2 combined all-star berths for their entire careers, and both of them borderline cases at best. Lopez averaged just 19 ppg and 7 rpg on slightly above average efficiency for the Nets in 2012-13, but he was the leading scorer for a good team so he got the berth despite Joe Johnson and Deron Williams clearly being better players IMO. And I think we all know Khris made it because everyone felt the Bucks had to have two all-stars this year and the PPGz will often get you in even when you don't really deserve it.

 

When you think about it, it's almost unprecedented to accomplish what they did with only one star. Robinson and Hakeem had similar success with, respectively, Elliot and Thorpe as their nominal "sidekick", but they didn't lead their team to an all-time great regular season. And Robinson had Rodman. Giannis was great, but I see people blaming him and am always reminded that no good deed goes unpunished.

 

It's pretty obvious that the Bucks lost the series primarily because of bad shooting on the perimeter, which in turn rendered Giannis less effective. Heck, you could argue the best defender on Giannis the entire series was Bledsoe. If anything, this means no more excuses for Lopez, Bledsoe, and Middleton.

[tmwiese55]

Yes Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the league but no he cannot stop Giannis one on one. They basically triple teamed him, sure Kawhi gets credit as the primary and he deserves it, especially while carrying the offensive burden. But it was a 3 man D on him and we failed to adjust.

 

For this move. While I generally agree with the overall sentiment and that Clips should be the fave I think this is still better for MKE than Kawhi staying in Toronto or joining LBJ/AD. Essentially just that no team has more than 2 true stars now. If Kawhi goes to LAL instead you then have 3 of the top 6ish players on the same team. And of course this makes the East easier for us as it just seems us and Philly this year, though Philly did build themselves a team almost specifically designed to guard Giannis. Long story, this move created the most parity the league has seen basically since LBJ went to Miami as there is no clear 'superteam' type favorite and now a legit 6-10 teams can honestly think they have a real chance this year and they're not delusional.

[LouisEly]

The Bucks are not the favorites IMO to go to represent the East in the Finals. The problem is they're looking at running into an a potential buzzsaw in the Clipps and one that matches up just way too perfectly with the Bucks. Our best three players(best regular season players anyway) Giannis, Middleton and Bledsoe will be defended by Kawhi, George and Beverly.

Huh? The Clippers are in the West. Los Angeles Clippers.

[OnTheBlack]

Kawhi did a good job against Giannis but I think Giannis could have set up closer to the basket and used a size advantage if not for Ibaka or Gasol always being ready to help. In any case, the point remains that the Clippers don't have nearly the same defensive presence at the 4 or 5. Murder on the perimeter though. Can't hide anyone on Danny Green against them.

 

I don't really agree with the "no excuses for Giannis" mindset. The only "excuse" he needs is the fact the entire rest of the roster has 2 combined all-star berths for their entire careers, and both of them borderline cases at best. Lopez averaged just 19 ppg and 7 rpg on slightly above average efficiency for the Nets in 2012-13, but he was the leading scorer for a good team so he got the berth despite Joe Johnson and Deron Williams clearly being better players IMO. And I think we all know Khris made it because everyone felt the Bucks had to have two all-stars this year and the PPGz will often get you in even when you don't really deserve it.

 

When you think about it, it's almost unprecedented to accomplish what they did with only one star. Robinson and Hakeem had similar success with, respectively, Elliot and Thorpe as their nominal "sidekick", but they didn't lead their team to an all-time great regular season. And Robinson had Rodman. Giannis was great, but I see people blaming him and am always reminded that no good deed goes unpunished.

 

It's pretty obvious that the Bucks lost the series primarily because of bad shooting on the perimeter, which in turn rendered Giannis less effective. Heck, you could argue the best defender on Giannis the entire series was Bledsoe. If anything, this means no more excuses for Lopez, Bledsoe, and Middleton.

 

 

Giannis could have set up close to the basket, but that's also not really a part of his game that's developed yet. As great as he is, he doesn't have a lot of moves around the basket. He hasn't really needed them and he's been a guy who's gotten going primarily with the ball in his hands. Just like a jumper, I'm sure he'll improve his low post game to match his talent and in potential Clippers series, beyond Zubic, they don't have the help.

 

As for the "no excuse," I don't get it either. I'd throw Dirk and a couple others in there as sole superstars leading their teams, but there aren't many. Just looking at it waaay too early, that Sixers series is one that Giannis is going to need guys to step up in. Simmons, Horford and Embid are pretty much set up to shut down Giannis.

[OnTheBlack]

The Bucks are not the favorites IMO to go to represent the East in the Finals. The problem is they're looking at running into an a potential buzzsaw in the Clipps and one that matches up just way too perfectly with the Bucks. Our best three players(best regular season players anyway) Giannis, Middleton and Bledsoe will be defended by Kawhi, George and Beverly.

Huh? The Clippers are in the West. Los Angeles Clippers.

 

 

I mis-spoke. That wasn't obvious?

[OnTheBlack]

Yes Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the league but no he cannot stop Giannis one on one. They basically triple teamed him, sure Kawhi gets credit as the primary and he deserves it, especially while carrying the offensive burden. But it was a 3 man D on him and we failed to adjust.

 

For this move. While I generally agree with the overall sentiment and that Clips should be the fave I think this is still better for MKE than Kawhi staying in Toronto or joining LBJ/AD. Essentially just that no team has more than 2 true stars now. If Kawhi goes to LAL instead you then have 3 of the top 6ish players on the same team. And of course this makes the East easier for us as it just seems us and Philly this year, though Philly did build themselves a team almost specifically designed to guard Giannis. Long story, this move created the most parity the league has seen basically since LBJ went to Miami as there is no clear 'superteam' type favorite and now a legit 6-10 teams can honestly think they have a real chance this year and they're not delusional.

 

 

Well, I don't know if he can moving forward, I just know what he did last year. I'm not arguing that they threw multiple defenders at Giannis or that Kawhi locked down Giannis the entire series. He didn't, he wasn't on Giannis most possessions. During the regular season though Giannis was 3 for 30 when Kawhi was the primary defender and while I don't know what it was in the post-season, it was pretty bad. He's the one guy capable of staying in front of Giannis and not allowing Giannis to use his length when he gets into the restricted area given his own ridiculous wing span(which is the same as Giannis'). Go back and watch some of those games though. Part of it was Giannis getting frustrated and trying to do too much, but Kawhi really was shutting him down pretty much by himself when he was on him. It forced Giannis out of his comfort zone and into taking 10-12 foot fadeaway's or he got those freakishly large hands on the ball and ripped or deflected it. But Giannis is 24. As great as he is, he's still raw. He'll develop secondary moves, he'll develop more of a post game. He's easily the most talented player we've had since Kare

 

I'm not talking about "the wall," or the help defense, Ibaka and Gasol certainly played a huge factor in slowing Giannis down. I'm talking about when Kawhi just shut Giannis down

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nba/bruce-arthur-kawhi-vs-giannis-is-the-series-for-raptors-and-bucks/ar-AABEcK6

That's just one article, but others can find more relevant data when it comes to Kawhi being the primary defender.

 

When Kawhi was the primary defender, Giannis, he changed the way he played and as a result the Bucks offense took a nose dive. Stopped or contained, use whatever words you'd like, but really locked

 

Now if Bledsoe would have played even decent, or the Bucks would have been able to hit shots, Giannis might not have felt the need to force things against the Raptors. But he did and especially when Kawhi was on him, it wasn't pretty.

 

This isn't some dig on Giannis. He was the superstar on a team up 2-0 desperately trying to force the action and he didn't have the tools to get it done. He personally didn't have the secondary moves and Bledsoe, the guy who was supposed to be the 3rd star on this team completely disappeared, and so did pretty much everyone else for stretches other than Hill and Brogdon. There wasn't a 3rd guy you could count on to consistently help out Giannis.

[HiAndTight]

Yes Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the league but no he cannot stop Giannis one on one. They basically triple teamed him, sure Kawhi gets credit as the primary and he deserves it, especially while carrying the offensive burden. But it was a 3 man D on him and we failed to adjust.

 

For this move. While I generally agree with the overall sentiment and that Clips should be the fave I think this is still better for MKE than Kawhi staying in Toronto or joining LBJ/AD. Essentially just that no team has more than 2 true stars now. If Kawhi goes to LAL instead you then have 3 of the top 6ish players on the same team. And of course this makes the East easier for us as it just seems us and Philly this year, though Philly did build themselves a team almost specifically designed to guard Giannis. Long story, this move created the most parity the league has seen basically since LBJ went to Miami as there is no clear 'superteam' type favorite and now a legit 6-10 teams can honestly think they have a real chance this year and they're not delusional.

 

 

I don't totally disagree, but I think you're ignoring what Kawhi did to Giannis. And I don't know that we could have adjusted much. Guys were missing the shots they did have and then the Raptors shooters who hadn't been hitting anything started hitting the ones they got.

 

 

But if Kawhi didn't shut Giannis down, he sure changed the way he played. I recall a couple plays in particular, Giannis driving against him and the one time he just reached up and tied Giannis up. I don't think Giannis is used to a guy who's as long and as strong as Kawhi. Another Giannis was spinning to the hole, a play Paul George...probably the 2nd best wing defender who's not just a defensive specialist-could not have stopped and Kawhi got a big old mit in there and took it away.

 

After a few of those and Giannis well-chronicled struggles regular season struggles when defended by Kawhi, I just he was just a bit off his game. Primarily in the half court. He was still great in this series, we're really just talking about him not being AS great as he was during the regular season and even in the game when he got nothing going offensively, he still controlled the game like only Draymond and Ben Simmons can do.

 

Ben Simmons is basically Giannis floor at this point. Bad Giannis=Ben Simmons. That's pretty formidable.

 

 

But whatever, I don't really care about what Kawhi did last year to Giannis. We've seen every-single-year Giannis come back and we're hoping for just marginal improvements and he makes these big leaps. A couple years ago he was basically ~22/11 and without looking, I'd guess he had ~5 assists and probably over 1.5 steels and blocks a game. Two years later he's expanded his game so much and he's still just 24. So I don't care how good Kawhi is, I watch Giannis every night and I believe he's actually good enough to get us over the top.

[HiAndTight]

Kawhi did a good job against Giannis but I think Giannis could have set up closer to the basket and used a size advantage if not for Ibaka or Gasol always being ready to help. In any case, the point remains that the Clippers don't have nearly the same defensive presence at the 4 or 5. Murder on the perimeter though. Can't hide anyone on Danny Green against them.

 

I don't really agree with the "no excuses for Giannis" mindset. The only "excuse" he needs is the fact the entire rest of the roster has 2 combined all-star berths for their entire careers, and both of them borderline cases at best. Lopez averaged just 19 ppg and 7 rpg on slightly above average efficiency for the Nets in 2012-13, but he was the leading scorer for a good team so he got the berth despite Joe Johnson and Deron Williams clearly being better players IMO. And I think we all know Khris made it because everyone felt the Bucks had to have two all-stars this year and the PPGz will often get you in even when you don't really deserve it.

 

When you think about it, it's almost unprecedented to accomplish what they did with only one star. Robinson and Hakeem had similar success with, respectively, Elliot and Thorpe as their nominal "sidekick", but they didn't lead their team to an all-time great regular season. And Robinson had Rodman. Giannis was great, but I see people blaming him and am always reminded that no good deed goes unpunished.

 

It's pretty obvious that the Bucks lost the series primarily because of bad shooting on the perimeter, which in turn rendered Giannis less effective. Heck, you could argue the best defender on Giannis the entire series was Bledsoe. If anything, this means no more excuses for Lopez, Bledsoe, and Middleton.

 

I agree with OTB here, setting up in the low post like a traditional big isn't really a part of his game yet that he seems comfortable with. Not against the elite defenders you're talking about anyway. Even if his jumper is no better than last year, if he can just add a couple moves, that Hakeem shake and up and under, with his length, he could be unstoppable.

 

As for the "no excuse" comment, that's what you're gonna get when you look like you could be one of the 5-6 best players to ever play this game. You're right, if guys aren't hitting shots, Giannis will have every excuse, because even in basketball, you can't win it by yourself. You can come closer than any other sport, but not by yourself.

 

 

I think we're on the same page with Giannis. It looked like he was going to do something unprecedented in his first trip to the ECF's and going deep into the playoffs and find a way to win it without a 2nd true star, but that's hard. I can think of the last Pistons team, the ones you mentioned, the Mavs with Dirk was a good one, but it's rare to have someone the caliber of Middleton and be the 2nd best player on a championship team. As much as I'm glad we re-signed him, he's Mychael Thompson on the showtime Lakers. He's DJ at the end. He's not Worthy, or McChale or Pippen or even close.

 

But just talking about the Clippers, this is a series I could actually see going big helping us. Robin Lopez is a pretty good low post scorer, Brooks we already know can do both, I think Wilson will take a big jump forward and they have a nice promising young C in Zubic, but he hasn't done much yet.

 

I do know the Clippers..as currently constructed aren't as good as the Warriors have been, I don't even think they're as good as the Heat were during their 4 year run. And and that's healthy and without much rooom for improvment form their young players. George probably had a career year last year, Kawhi was the best version of himself vs us and then they have role players. This isn't the 96 Bulls. They can be beat.

 

 

I really hope they can find another explosive, athletic guard that a team is trying to dump though. Someone who can handle the ball well at some point in the upcoming season. Doesn't have to be someone like Beal, just another guy like George Hill. No idea right now who that guy is, but we need another ball handler.

[nodakfan17]

No matter how many good teams there are in the West, the Bucks only have to beat one of them in route to the championship.

[coolhandluke121]

 

I can think of the last Pistons team, the ones you mentioned, the Mavs with Dirk was a good one, but it's rare to have someone the caliber of Middleton and be the 2nd best player on a championship team. As much as I'm glad we re-signed him, he's Mychael Thompson on the showtime Lakers. He's DJ at the end. He's not Worthy, or McChale or Pippen or even close.

 

 

Even that Pistons team had several regular all-stars. Billups made it 5 times, Hamilton 3, Rasheed 4, Big Ben 4, McDyess 1, and heck, even Derrick Coleman had 1 though that's pretty irrelevant. They were more a testament to a team being able to without a true superstar, but they had lots of stars.

 

Dirk had Marion with 4 all-star selections and Kidd with 10 when he won a title. They were past their primes, but still easily better than anything the Bucks have besides Giannis IMO. Tyson Chandler would also be an all-star later on and Jason Terry was at least comparable to Khris or Brook in all-star worthiness but the competition at his position in his conference was very different from what Lopez and Khris faced.

 

The only really close comparison I can come up with is Olajuwon in 1994. Otis Thorpe made one all-star game in '92 and Cassell would make one much later, but Hakeem was amazing. I think that's the level of impact Giannis ultimately gets to, though with some differences in their game, and I think Hakeem should be a dark horse for top 5 all-time but those lists don't usually appreciate defense enough so not many people put him there.

[HiAndTight]

 

I can think of the last Pistons team, the ones you mentioned, the Mavs with Dirk was a good one, but it's rare to have someone the caliber of Middleton and be the 2nd best player on a championship team. As much as I'm glad we re-signed him, he's Mychael Thompson on the showtime Lakers. He's DJ at the end. He's not Worthy, or McChale or Pippen or even close.

 

 

Even that Pistons team had several regular all-stars. Billups made it 5 times, Hamilton 3, Rasheed 4, Big Ben 4, McDyess 1, and heck, even Derrick Coleman had 1 though that's pretty irrelevant. They were more a testament to a team being able to without a true superstar, but they had lots of stars.

 

Dirk had Marion with 4 all-star selections and Kidd with 10 when he won a title. They were past their primes, but still easily better than anything the Bucks have besides Giannis IMO. Tyson Chandler would also be an all-star later on and Jason Terry was at least comparable to Khris or Brook in all-star worthiness but the competition at his position in his conference was very different from what Lopez and Khris faced.

 

The only really close comparison I can come up with is Olajuwon in 1994. Otis Thorpe made one all-star game in '92 and Cassell would make one much later, but Hakeem was amazing. I think that's the level of impact Giannis ultimately gets to, though with some differences in their game, and I think Hakeem should be a dark horse for top 5 all-time but those lists don't usually appreciate defense enough so not many people put him there.

 

 

I think the Hakeem comp would be the closest in terms of not having a legit #2 star. It's kinda like calling a pitcher an ace. Just being a good pitcher on a good team doesn't mean you're a legit ace and Middleton being an all-star on a good team doesn't make him a true #2. He's not far off and he's capable of performing like one, but you need a transcendent superstar and a lot of good players around him in order to pull it off.

 

The Pistons, they were built a little differently, but for instance, I don't think Rip Hamilton was a better player than Middleton. All of those pieces just fit SOO well together. I think people forget how good of a defender Prince was, Ben Wallace was a Rodman-esque presence in those years, Billup's was good, but the regular season, I'd take Bledsoe or at least I think it's close. It's just that a big chunk of Billup's rep(rightfully so) was built on being such a clutch player. He hit a lot of shots, but just running that team and being a leader and not choking like Bledsoe did. But that team was together for a while and got deep into the playoffs, but didn't get over the hump until they added 'Sheed. He was probably the biggest star on that team, but they were all so close and played so well together. I doubt we see a team in the near future win with their best player being as "bad" as that Pistons teams best player.

 

So not a good comp, but a team that won without multiple legitimate All-NBA type players.

 

 

I don't think I agree with you on the Mavs. I don't think they ever should have won first of all, but if you're going by the level of play when they won it, Kidd was basically like a Rondo. Just a ball distributor who was somewhat effective on defense only because he was smart enough to anticipate, but old and slow and I'd argue their 2nd and 3rd best players were Marion and Chandler at that point. And maybe not even in that order. Kidd had to have been mid 30's, late 30's. Same with Marion, he was older and his best days were long behind him. Not as old as Kidd. I'd put Terry ahead of those guys and I'd rate Middleton ahead of Marion if you're picking Middleton right now or Marion from that team. But they were a team that was built around Dirk. They have Haywood, another big guy, so between Chandler, Marion, and Haywood, the could keep Dirk clean and he was the only guy on that team who was really an all-star player still. That team's probably an aberration though because they just should never have beaten that Heat team. I definitely don't think you can say that Kidd at that point and Marion were easily better than Middleton. I think Marion as a whole was overrated. He was good with the Suns when they had Nash and D'Antoni running the show and he put up big numbers, but by the time he was on the Mavs, he was nowhere near an all-star caliber player by that point.

Not that this is really the point, agree with your fundamental point, Dallas was a team with one superstar who was far-far better than their next best player and won. I just think Middleton gets undervalued because of his style of play. You see lazy, I see just an even-keeled guy who has been asked to change his style of play. He's not supposed to be running off multiple screens like Reggie was all game long, he's supposed to spot up and wait for the ball to come to him. That's probably another adjustment the Bucks could make with the post-season in mind, adding a little more motion to their offense for when you run into guys who can slow Giannis down, you have other ways to create shots other than Giannis and Bled dribbling into a crowd and trying to then kick out. But on that Mavs team, I'll take Middleton over 38 or 39 year old kid and Marion for sure. Chandler was a player from a pretty different era. And Terry was more like a veteran Mark Acquire at that point. Maybe I'd take Terry over him, I don't know.

 

 

The Jordan AA days when Houston won a couple I'll definitely grant you is the best example. They built a team around Hakeem. I'm sure in today's NBA Hakeem would be a 38 pct 3 point shooter, but probably the most underrated player I've watched play in the last 30 years, he was so dominant and so athletic on the block offensively, you just need some shooters around him. I really hope they get together again and Giannis works on improving his play on the block because he's even more athletic than Hakeem was, and while he's capable of bringing the ball up if he could develop some of Olajuwon's arsenal that would totally change this teams ability in the half court. He can score because he's so much better right now against almost everyone, but if he improves his game with his back to the basket, that would have to make the game that much easier for the other guys. Again, not expecting him to turn into Hakeem anymore than I expect him to become Reggie Miller as a shooter, but as graceful as he is and with how incredible his footwork is on his Euro-steps, there's no reason he can't incorporate more of a Hakeem style of play offensively. Defensively, I don't think even Giannis is where Hakeem was during that stretch, but not far off. I'd say top 5 may be a bit too high, but if you're going to include big men, I'll take him over Shaq any day, hard for me to give an informed opinion on Kareem or Wilt as I can only see what the stats say. But I'd also EASILY take him over, Robinson and Duncan. Basically any big man I've watched since I started following the game in the early 90's. He was like Mutumbo defensively and so good and efficient offensively. Definitely a top 5 all time big and while I think Robinson was unstoppable when he played and relentless, Duncan was so skilled and such a smart player, Shaq freakishly dominant, I'd take Hakeem over any of them. Moses Malone was old when I started watching but doesn't look like he was in the same group either. So it'd be Shaq or Hakeem and I'd take the guy who could do more, win in a larger variety of ways and who you didn't NEED that so-called "closer" for in Kobe because Hakeem could actually hit his FT's.

 

Thorpe was kinda a Kevin Willis type, but smaller and more of a scorer. So I guess..Horace Grant?

 

 

Anyway, I'm with you on the Rockets and the Bucks being a similar comp. The only difference is that Hakeem at that point was a finished product and Giannis is just starting out. That and when you wing a ring, the perception of others changes. Or even just after you've played a full career. I think if the Bucks win one or two and Middleton sticks around for a while, he'll probably make a couple more All-Star games and be looked upon more favorably as the years go by, but no doubt, this is a ONE superstar team.

 

Edit-Malone. There was another really good big that I couldn't think of from that era. I don't really consider Barkley part of the group at 6'4 or 6'5. But I bet a lot of people would put Malone ahead of Hakeem. And he was great, but imagine a career of Hakeem and Stockton running that pick and roll? And if he played today, he'd have been a mix of Embid and KG.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling. Flew out yesterday afternoon, turned around, took the red-eye home and just got home a while ago. But anyway, point is, Giannis can lead the Bucks to a title. He's good enough. He needs more help starting with Bledsoe being a competent PG and goes from there.