Trent Grisham

[KeithStone53151]

I believe I've seen And That post at least a few times that Grisham could be a better defender, but takes too many bad routes. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that.

[And That]

I believe I've seen And That post at least a few times that Grisham could be a better defender, but takes too many bad routes. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that.

That is accurate. He's not a first-division CF in the major leagues. He's a LF.

 

That said, he should be better than he is out there so a world exists where he turns into a fringe-average defender in center.

[Greenleaf1]

I believe I've seen And That post at least a few times that Grisham could be a better defender, but takes too many bad routes. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that.

That is accurate. He's not a first-division CF in the major leagues. He's a LF.

 

That said, he should be better than he is out there so a world exists where he turns into a fringe-average defender in center.

 

It just so happens we could use a new LF in a couple years, so that might work out perfectly...

[IntentionalHBP]

Trent Grisham has made his AAA debut tonight and went 2-4 with a three run HR.

[OnTheBlack]

 

Ray hit 239 last year with a whopping 176 strikeouts. Not really impressive at all. He's been grossly overrated since draft day, or even before. He didn't improve in college either.

 

I didn't intend to aimlessly dog him, I was just agreeing with another posters statement, and adding to it.

 

 

Ok, so it was random and even more pointless. And you weren't agreeing with another posters statement. That statement said Grisham was now our best OF prospect over Ray AND Lutz(more on him in a second). You then were somehow shocked that Ray was ever considered a good prospect. Not that you agreed Grisham had surpassed him, merely that he was ever highly regarded.

 

But we're going to use BA and K's to rank how good a prospect is. Yet Tristen Lutz is still a "great" prospect.

 

What did he do last year in A ball? 139 K's, .245 BA. So did I just pretty much sum up Tristen Lutz and his potential as a "prospect?"

 

 

Ok, back to the topic-TRENT GRISHAM.

Interesting that you completely ignore that Lutz was a 19 year old in A ball, yet he was still better than Ray was when he was at the same level after playing 3 years of college baseball.

 

What's amazing about Grisham, is that to properly compare him to Ray at the same age, Grisham would need to play in AA again next year. That won't be happening.

 

Grisham has 8 homes since May 24th. What an amazing run. As others have mentioned, he also is doing it with his usual ultra patient approach.

 

 

I didn't ignore it, I was simply trying to point out how stupid it is to disregard a prospect, a CF prospect for that matter who had an OPS over 800, hit 27 Hr's, stole 37 bases by using batting average and K's.

 

But to THEN go and say that another OF is not a good prospect, but a GREAT one when he too struck out a lot and hit for a lot BA.

 

Second, Lutz was better at Low A than Ray was? Ray didn't play in Appleton. He skipped low A(unless you're counting the 3 games he played there...which honestly would not surprise me at this point).

 

Your logic is all over the place.

 

Ray was about a year younger than average last year for his league.

Lutz was 2.4 years younger.

 

Both struck out a lot and hit for low averages. Ray did it at a higher level and put up a OPS of .801 vs .742. But again, your manner of evaluation seems to change depending on which player you're arguing for or against.

[OnTheBlack]

What's amazing about Grisham, is that to properly compare him to Ray at the same age, Grisham would need to play in AA again next year. That won't be happening.

 

People harp on age way too much. 24 for one player does not equal 24 for another.

 

MiLB Ball>College Ball

 

Why do you think Latin players make it to the MLB level so fast? They get to sign contracts at 16 and have world class coaches and facilities.

 

The average college guy is probably getting a stint at A-Ball or A+ if aggressive. Mind you half that season is gone before even signing. Arcia was in AAA when his class was graduating college, Wily Peralta was getting a taste of AA, Freddy Peralta was dominating AA, and Hernan Perez already had an MLB at-bat. The listed players aren't even that good...they weren't mega talents. These guys are in better baseball experiences before 18 than most college players have. Same goes for the 18 year olds skipping college, better baseball level in the MiLB.

 

23 year old Corey Ray is probably pretty comparable to 22 year old Trent Grisham.

 

 

This is a great point. And the learning curve is that much steeper with guys whose hit tools are lagging behind the rest of their tools. I'm not a particular fan of any of these guys over the other. Right now Grisham looks like he's the guy who's figuring it all out and he has passed guys and become the Brewers top OF prospect.

 

I'm just thrilled with that. Grisham's success or lackthereof does not in any way impact Rays(unless they're both at the same level which they now are, but Ray of course is injured).

[OnTheBlack]

Athletic toolsy outfielders like Ray that can’t hit are a dime a dozen. Overrated would be putting it mildly.

 

His bat compares favorably with Keon Broxton. Both have holes IN their bats that keep them from making contact. At least Keon has an all world glove and arm, While Ray does not.

 

 

I'm curious, have you ever gotten a chance to watch either play? Or are you just watching their box scores and evaluating them?

[nate82]

Athletic toolsy outfielders like Ray that can’t hit are a dime a dozen. Overrated would be putting it mildly.

 

His bat compares favorably with Keon Broxton. Both have holes IN their bats that keep them from making contact. At least Keon has an all world glove and arm, While Ray does not.

 

Ray is more comparable to Jackie Bradley Jr. than he is of Keon Broxton.

[Never Outhustled]

Athletic toolsy outfielders like Ray that can’t hit are a dime a dozen. Overrated would be putting it mildly.

 

His bat compares favorably with Keon Broxton. Both have holes IN their bats that keep them from making contact. At least Keon has an all world glove and arm, While Ray does not.

 

Ray is more comparable to Jackie Bradley Jr. than he is of Keon Broxton.

 

In what way? Bradley consistently made contact throughout his career, while Ray is a strikeout machine. Bradley had an outstanding sophomore season in college, was really good in his first full pro season, and earned his way to the majors by age 23.

[Never Outhustled]

Grisham with his 3rd AAA homer. The game has gotten easy for him. He's still drawing walks, he doesn't strikeout, and he's just 22.

[brewmann04]

Maybe you can now trade Ray?

[adambr2]

Is there anyone who wouldn't have Grisham in their top 3 Brewer prospects right now? Hiura, Turang...I think I'd put him right there after those two. With a possibility of being #1 at midseason if Hiura graduates by then and Grisham keeps doing what he's doing.

 

What a turnaround.

[trwi7]

Maybe you can now trade Ray?

 

For what? He's almost 25 with a career OPS of .718 and without the defense that would make that kind of offensive production acceptable.

[nate82]

Athletic toolsy outfielders like Ray that can’t hit are a dime a dozen. Overrated would be putting it mildly.

 

His bat compares favorably with Keon Broxton. Both have holes IN their bats that keep them from making contact. At least Keon has an all world glove and arm, While Ray does not.

 

Ray is more comparable to Jackie Bradley Jr. than he is of Keon Broxton.

 

In what way? Bradley consistently made contact throughout his career, while Ray is a strikeout machine. Bradley had an outstanding sophomore season in college, was really good in his first full pro season, and earned his way to the majors by age 23.

 

Bradley has been about a 26% strikeout player. Before this season Ray was around 30% so about a 4% difference. Both are good but not great defensively though Bradley is probably a step above him. Offensively Bradley and Ray are nearly identical you are going to get low average type of offense out of them a career year being something around .270 with about 20 HR. Bradley is nearly a defensive first OF with some pop in his bat which is what I see Ray as.

[trwi7]

Bradley has been about a 26% strikeout player. Before this season Ray was around 30% so about a 4% difference. Both are good but not great defensively though Bradley is probably a step above him. Offensively Bradley and Ray are nearly identical you are going to get low average type of offense out of them a career year being something around .270 with about 20 HR. Bradley is nearly a defensive first OF with some pop in his bat which is what I see Ray as.

 

Bradley struck out 17% of the time in the minors and had a nearly .400 OBP there. Ray strikes out 29% of the time and has a .312 OBP. Add to Bradley being a much better defender and they just aren't even close to comparable.

[adambr2]

Maybe you can now trade Ray?

 

For what? He's almost 25 with a career OPS of .718 and without the defense that would make that kind of offensive production acceptable.

 

Maybe a reliever like Shane Greene. Ray hasn't been good, but a lot of this year is probably largely attributable to injuries. He was one of the best players in the Southern League last year. Someone like the Tigers might take a shot on him based on his production last year, his tools and his draft pedigree if they figure he's the highest upside guy in a Greene offer.

[Brew crew 92]

Athletic toolsy outfielders like Ray that can’t hit are a dime a dozen. Overrated would be putting it mildly.

 

His bat compares favorably with Keon Broxton. Both have holes IN their bats that keep them from making contact. At least Keon has an all world glove and arm, While Ray does not.

 

 

I'm curious, have you ever gotten a chance to watch either play? Or are you just watching their box scores and evaluating them?

 

Yes, i’ve watched them play baseball. And I stand by my comparison.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Athletic toolsy outfielders like Ray that can’t hit are a dime a dozen. Overrated would be putting it mildly.

 

His bat compares favorably with Keon Broxton. Both have holes IN their bats that keep them from making contact. At least Keon has an all world glove and arm, While Ray does not.

 

 

I'm curious, have you ever gotten a chance to watch either play? Or are you just watching their box scores and evaluating them?

 

Yes, i’ve watched them play baseball. And I stand by my comparison.

 

Besides the fact that, you know, Broxton stands nearly 4 inches taller, has a much longer swing, and, of course, bats right handed. But other than that ... twins!

 

Honestly, they are completely different types of players. Ray generates his power with a short, quick stroke, not unlike a player like Ray Lankford. Broxton's swing is long and powerful when he makes contact. Sort of a very poor man's Devon White or Mike Cameron.

[monkeyman343434]

So....... that Trent Grisham guy is pretty good.

[OnTheBlack]

Is there anyone who wouldn't have Grisham in their top 3 Brewer prospects right now? Hiura, Turang...I think I'd put him right there after those two. With a possibility of being #1 at midseason if Hiura graduates by then and Grisham keeps doing what he's doing.

 

What a turnaround.

 

 

I'd still have Turang ahead of him, but man, he's been incredible. Another great game, reached base 4 times in 5 PA's including 2 doubles. Still, I see a potential Trea Turner in Turang. I don't stream many minor league games, but I do have to go to Appleton pretty often and love watching them play.

 

But still, he's been incredible.

[OnTheBlack]

Yes, i’ve watched them play baseball. And I stand by my comparison.

 

Besides the fact that, you know, Broxton stands nearly 4 inches taller, has a much longer swing, and, of course, bats right handed. But other than that ... twins!

 

Honestly, they are completely different types of players. Ray generates his power with a short, quick stroke, not unlike a player like Ray Lankford. Broxton's swing is long and powerful when he makes contact. Sort of a very poor man's Devon White or Mike Cameron.

 

This was why I asked. I meant to ask if he'd seen Ray play, because asking if he'd seen "them" play gives him the out as we all watched Broxton play.

 

I think a LOT of people form very strong opinions about players based on their box scores and then make these comps that shows they obviously haven't. If you didn't play at Appleton, I've probably not watched much of a guy other than some AB's on Youtube(which isn't "watching them play).

[OnTheBlack]

Athletic toolsy outfielders like Ray that can’t hit are a dime a dozen. Overrated would be putting it mildly.

 

His bat compares favorably with Keon Broxton. Both have holes IN their bats that keep them from making contact. At least Keon has an all world glove and arm, While Ray does not.

 

 

I'm curious, have you ever gotten a chance to watch either play? Or are you just watching their box scores and evaluating them?

 

Yes, i’ve watched them play baseball. And I stand by my comparison.

 

 

Ray. How many times have you actually watched Corey RAY play. I should not have asked about both of them. How many games have you watched Ray play an actual game? Because as has been pointed out, they look absolutely nothing like Broxton outside of their box score.

[Never Outhustled]

 

 

I'm curious, have you ever gotten a chance to watch either play? Or are you just watching their box scores and evaluating them?

 

Yes, i’ve watched them play baseball. And I stand by my comparison.

 

Besides the fact that, you know, Broxton stands nearly 4 inches taller, has a much longer swing, and, of course, bats right handed. But other than that ... twins!

 

Honestly, they are completely different types of players. Ray generates his power with a short, quick stroke, not unlike a player like Ray Lankford. Broxton's swing is long and powerful when he makes contact. Sort of a very poor man's Devon White or Mike Cameron.

 

Corey Ray doesn't compare to Lankford at all. Lankford wasn't a strikeout guy in the minors, and was a productive hitter. He was in the majors by age 23.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

Corey Ray doesn't compare to Lankford at all. Lankford wasn't a strikeout guy in the minors, and was a productive hitter. He was in the majors by age 23.

 

The whole point of this exercise is comparing tools and style, and not stats. And I'd argue that style- and tool-wise, Corey Ray is a carbon copy of a young Ray Lankford. Of course, sometimes unfortunately substance and style don't always coincide.

[ctmyers]

Regarding Grisham, it looks like he's putting in a concerted effort to pull the ball more. Of Grisham's 16 home run's, 12 have been to right-center or right. In 2018, only one of his seven home run's went to center, right-center or right field. Fangraphs shows his pull percentage at 43.3% last year, versus 47.7% this year (in AA).

 

Excluding Pina, Grisham would have the highest pull percentage on the Brewers roster at 47.7. The next closest would be Braun (43.1), followed by Arcia (42.5) and Shaw (41.1).