Bucks off-season thread (non-draft)

[coolhandluke121]

 

Now just renounce Mirotic and they can actually use some salary cap space to sign there players and THEN(the and then part is key here) use the MLE for teams over the cap but below the tax apron.

 

Wow, why is it so hard for you to understand that you can't do this? You realize your continued insistence on this undermines all your other arguments about the financial situation, right? Use cap space, get the room MLE. Period.

 

The owners are being cheap, just as I feared.

[OnTheBlack]

 

Now just renounce Mirotic and they can actually use some salary cap space to sign there players and THEN(the and then part is key here) use the MLE for teams over the cap but below the tax apron.

 

Wow, why is it so hard for you to understand that you can't do this? You realize your continued insistence on this undermines all your other arguments about the financial situation, right? Use cap space, get the room MLE. Period.

 

The owners are being cheap, just as I feared.

 

 

 

See, no matter what, you were right. Had they kept him, you'd have been right as well.

 

No, they're NOT being cheap. They're just not being over the top stupid which is something YOU don't seem to be able to comprehend. Now...lets see all those teams who are lining up to pick him up off waivers. There's a "good" chance of that, right?

 

Pretty sure there is almost zero chance of that just as there was zero chance that he was ever going to do anything but waive him. That was the reason they made that trade in the first place. Try just mouthing the words "I was wrong" before you actually say them. I know it'll be hard for you...maybe even impossible, but you really should try it.

[HiAndTight]

 

Now just renounce Mirotic and they can actually use some salary cap space to sign there players and THEN(the and then part is key here) use the MLE for teams over the cap but below the tax apron.

Wow, why is it so hard for you to understand that you can't do this? You realize your continued insistence on this undermines all your other arguments about the financial situation, right? Use cap space, get the room MLE. Period.

 

The owners are being cheap, just as I feared.

 

 

So this is your incredibly obnoxious and condescending way of saying that if you start the year with cap room, it doesn't matter if you use up that cap room and go into the cap, you're stuck paying the room MLE? Even if you go into the luxury tax?

 

The Exception is based on your cap situation. I also was under the impression that if you were over the cap that was the MLE that was applicable to you. Several other people on here have asked questions about the CBA. So are we all just idiots because we don't sit down and go through the NBA's CBA line by line? Just explain when it changes. At what point you need to be over the cap. Would that not be easier than repeated snide comments?

 

 

Also, if you want to talk about arguments being undermined, you're calling the Bucks owners "cheap" for not wanting to pay George Hill 18 million dollars next year, a figure that could easily swell to...what, 60 million dollars if the Bucks go just 15 million into the luxury tax?

 

George Hill's mother didn't think he was getting the non-guaranteed portion of his contract. Nobody on this board did, nobody around the NBA did.

 

 

You've made this off-season the George Hill off-season and it's ridiculous. So one last plea...just stop. And if you ARE actually privy to all the information you're saying you are, just share it. That's kinda the point of this board. Don't insult people who don't understand it. I've paid for season tickets for decades....41 games a year for two seats. Am I one of those "casual fans" who don't understand the sport quite like you do?

 

And On the Black, just stop. Not a big difference between saying I told you so over and over and someone saying you're wrong over and over.

 

This thread SHOULD be about the Bucks off-season, not how much George Hill is going to make. This crap is like listening(or rather reading) two kids bickering about who's on their side of the seat.

[BillScottCanRake]

As someone who is a much more causal NBA fan than baseball fan, I would REALLY love it if I could come to this thread as someone who is looking for some news and opinions instead of a BF.net moderator. I know the thought of being a moderator sounds like fun, but threads like this one make it suck. If it weren't for the pay, I'd have resigned long ago.

 

I think we are all adults here. And being an adult isn't about winning every point or who is right the most. Can we put down the scorecards and please treat each other respectfully, no matter who is "right" and who is "wrong"? Please?

 

If you can't do it because it is the right thing to do, do it for my family. We really can't afford to lose out on the money I am bringing home from here.

[homer]

As someone who is a much more causal NBA fan than baseball fan, I would REALLY love it if I could come to this thread as someone who is looking for some news and opinions instead of a BF.net moderator. I know the thought of being a moderator sounds like fun, but threads like this one make it suck. If it weren't for the pay, I'd have resigned long ago.

 

We are waiving you to sign And That to a mid level exception.

[BillScottCanRake]

As someone who is a much more causal NBA fan than baseball fan, I would REALLY love it if I could come to this thread as someone who is looking for some news and opinions instead of a BF.net moderator. I know the thought of being a moderator sounds like fun, but threads like this one make it suck. If it weren't for the pay, I'd have resigned long ago.

 

We are waiving you to sign And That to a mid level exception.

 

Harsh! I feel you Hernan Perez!

[OnTheBlack]

As someone who is a much more causal NBA fan than baseball fan, I would REALLY love it if I could come to this thread as someone who is looking for some news and opinions instead of a BF.net moderator. I know the thought of being a moderator sounds like fun, but threads like this one make it suck. If it weren't for the pay, I'd have resigned long ago.

 

We are waiving you to sign And That to a mid level exception.

 

 

 

But which MLE are you signing him to?

 

Ok, I'm sorry. I really do just want to talk BB, but some times it's down a rabbit hole and I can be guilty of keeping a petty argument going.

[OnTheBlack]

Regarding Brogdon, from ESPN;

 

One of the best spots for a player to be in is that of the gettable restricted free agent. Players who are in this gray area, where their teams might not match any offer, can sometimes drive fantastic deals, maybe even better than they could get if they were unrestricted free agents. Two players who've fit this bill in recent years are Zach LaVine and Otto Porter Jr., both of whom were believed to be gettable, and they landed tremendous offer sheets (which were matched).

 

This year, the player who seems to be squarely in that zone is restricted free-agent guard Malcolm Brogdon. With the Milwaukee Bucks facing a luxury-tax bill if they re-sign Khris Middleton, as they are expected to do, teams could challenge Milwaukee with a so-called toxic offer sheet for Brogdon. League executives believe a team could construct an offer sheet with the highest salary next season and then descending payments combined with a player option and possible bonuses that the Bucks might have to pay, but a new team might not.

 

The "toxic" offer sheet seems a bit like the poison pill from the NFL like when the Seahawks had Walter Jones, a HOF LF and Steve Hutchinson a HOF LG and the Vikings signed Hutchinson to a monster deal, but it said that he would be the highest paid player on the OL for the duration of his contract....and that was obviously not going to happen in Seattle where you had at least as good of a player playing a much-much more valuable position.

 

You'd think leagues would have eliminated these ways of working around the intent of the rules.

 

BUT, a contract in which Brogdon makes the most this year and then makes less in future years could be beneficial to the Bucks, couldn't it? The Bucks cap situation isn't going to improve much. The Cap will go up, but Middleton will likely earn more yearly, we'll have young guys we need to retain and obviously the biggest, we'll have Giannis set to make the SuperMax. Plus, if Brogdon makes...for arguments sake 20 this year and 15 in the final year, he's that much more valuable an asset.

 

I've also seen a report in which the Bucks have a "max out" number on Brogdon and teams may exceed that as it's possible teams are willing to pay him 20 million a year.

 

 

 

I don't like the idea of the Bucks waiting on Brogdon. Make a good offer right out of the gate. I don't like the idea of teams going out and bidding on Brogdon. Make him an offer, a fair offer so he knows he's wanted. Give him 4/55 or 4/60 and hopefully that gets it done.

 

Also in the article it says that there are multiple teams lining up to offer Horford the 4 year 100 million dollar deal he is seeking. I'm a little surprised he'd have that much interest or that Philly may be one of the teams interested when they've already got Simmons and Embid and it's require them to let Harris or Butler walk. That'd be a bigger problem IMO than the Raptors running it back with Kawhi. I was really hoping we'd play Philly as I thought we could exploit their lack of depth and Embid's poor conditioning, but if you throw Horford in the mix and then they presumably keep Reddick, McConnell and Butler for the sake of argument, that team would give Giannis a lot of trouble.

[coolhandluke121]

Allowing offer sheets like that gives RFA's some leverage if they want to leave. Teams often won't make offers when they know they will be matched. Then it's a stalemate that causes the player to get low-balled.

 

"Go get an offer, and we'll match."

"Nobody wants to make an offer because they know you'll match."

"Okay, here's an offer for 75% of what you would get if other teams wasted their time making market-value offers that they know we would match."

 

I hope it doesn't happen but I could see Brogdon wanting a more featured role.

[nate82]

Allowing offer sheets like that gives RFA's some leverage if they want to leave. Teams often won't make offers when they know they will be matched. Then it's a stalemate that causes the player to get low-balled.

 

"Go get an offer, and we'll match."

"Nobody wants to make an offer because they know you'll match."

"Okay, here's an offer for 75% of what you would get if other teams wasted their time making market-value offers that they know we would match."

 

I hope it doesn't happen but I could see Brogdon wanting a more featured role.

 

If Middleton is resigned Brogdon is the starting SG also if Middleton doesn't sign Brogdon is the starting SG on the Bucks. I am not sure how much more of a featured role he can get. He is not at the level of Giannis so he is not going to command the offense of any team. Brogdon is a nice player but he is not a superstar I would actually put him just a little bit behind Middleton but ahead of Bledsoe.

 

Brogdon could definitely find a role where he is the #2 option in the offense but then he is probably on a team that isn't as good as the Bucks will be. On most teams Brogdon is going to be the #2 or #3 option. So if he wants to be on a more featured role I don't think that role exists anywhere other than on a team that is completely rebuilding.

[coolhandluke121]

Brogdon could definitely find a role where he is the #2 option in the offense but then he is probably on a team that isn't as good as the Bucks will be. On most teams Brogdon is going to be the #2 or #3 option. So if he wants to be on a more featured role I don't think that role exists anywhere other than on a team that is completely rebuilding.

 

I agree. In fact, I don't think he should be even a #3 option on any team that's competing to make the playoffs. But he might want the opportunity to prove otherwise, instead of having people always say he's so lucky to be playing with Giannis (and paying him accordingly).

[coolhandluke121]

Mirotic signed with Barcelona. Odd. I think he could have made double what he'll make there, so he must have really wanted to go back to Europe. Can't imagine his injury-related struggles tanked his value that much in one year.

[DuWayne Steurer]

That sucks, but I don't (or didn't) view Mirotic as essential. They were wrecking the league in the regular season before they got him, and he was pretty bad in the playoffs. I'm sure given more time in the system he would have been fine (and more likely "Good"), but I feel like MIrotic was pretty far down the priority list honestly.

 

We'll see what Horst does to fill the void. Everything's going to depend on where the rest of the dominos fall with Lopez and Brogdon and K-Mid.

[GAME05]

I was kinda hoping Mirotic would sign on the cheap and be a good candidate for a rebound year. But can't blame him for going to be the best player on a Barcelona team instead of a bench player on an NBA team.

[OnTheBlack]

In that scenario. You desperately need a reliable backup PG who can respectably shoot. Your Hill, Collison types. Seth Curry could be one too, probably a bit less ball handling from him than preferred but still.

 

 

Right. That's why I was advocating you free up the cap space to sign the guys who you don't have bird rights to OR try to sign someone else. Patrick Beverly has hit 40 pct of his last 1000 three-pointers. He was harassing the hell outta Kevin Durant on the block and up in Steph's face on the perimeter. He's probably the best defensive PG in the NBA and he can shoot it.

 

So hypothetically, you sign him for ~3/21, you use the rest on Lopez, maybe Morris is willing to sign for the MLE then(NOT using salary cap space as you'd then be at the cap, which I believe is what Ontheblack was saying, but I could be wrong).

 

I don't think that's what we'll actually do. I could see Collison signing. But I don't think we're going to clear any cap space to sign anyone other than Lopez. I think they'll be able to find a veteran PG later on(or use the MLE on Hill, he did say he was more concerned with winning than money when asked).

 

It's been reported Beverly is looking for 3/40, so that 3/21 is not even close to what it will take.

 

According to ESPN's estimates for players Beverly is in the 10-12 million per year range. So 3/40 is a lot closer than 3/21.

Middleton the Max.

Brogdon 18-20 million a year.

Mirotic would have been 10-12 million a year.

Lopez is also at the 10-12 million a year.

Hill is at 4-6 million

 

These are all just projections, but it's feeling like this is gonna be another year where guys are really getting overpaid..at least the younger guys. AND it also feels like the Bucks players are going to be move valued because of their big season. Lopez was just as good last year. Now he's in that much more demand? And I like Brogdon a lot and hope he comes back, but if the Bucks really have this figure in their mind that they won't cross, I think he might be gone. And I think he'd be making a mistake unless there is a big difference.

 

He's a good, not great defender. He's big and long for a guard, so he can defend multiple positions, but he's not a lock down defender. His biggest strength is as 3 point shooter. Not many teams will afford him the number of chances that the Bucks with Giannis will.

 

IF that number on Hill is accurate, that should be a no-brainer. But if you're paying Middleton, Brogdon and Lopez a combined ~60-65 million next year, that could be a problem. And I'd imagine we'd be looking to give Ersan away which I don't think is a good idea. He's another vet who helped calm us down in the playoffs.

[OnTheBlack]

That sucks, but I don't (or didn't) view Mirotic as essential. They were wrecking the league in the regular season before they got him, and he was pretty bad in the playoffs. I'm sure given more time in the system he would have been fine (and more likely "Good"), but I feel like MIrotic was pretty far down the priority list honestly.

 

We'll see what Horst does to fill the void. Everything's going to depend on where the rest of the dominos fall with Lopez and Brogdon and K-Mid.

 

 

 

He turned down 3/45 from the Jazz to go back home. I guess it was never real likely he'd have come back.

 

With all the teams who cleared cap room, are teams gonna be making stupid deals this year? I know it won't be like a few years ago when the cap exploded, but I don't see Mirotic as being "the guy" the Jazz go after to push them over the top at 3/45.

 

I'm guessing the Jazz will be in on Brogdon now though. That was one of his rumored destinations to begin with...though with Conley and Mitchell that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

If we lose Brogdon and assuming these guys are vet minimum salary types Nik Stauskas could be a guy we could add, Austin Rivers, but we'd really have to hope that DDV is a guy that can knock down some 3's and play some defense.

[OnTheBlack]

Mirotic signed with Barcelona. Odd. I think he could have made double what he'll make there, so he must have really wanted to go back to Europe. Can't imagine his injury-related struggles tanked his value that much in one year.

 

 

Highest paid player in the league is 4.6 million.

Mirotic turned down 3/45.

 

So Mirotic would have to be by far the highest paid player to even make it half. That's a lot of money to give up to go home. Dude's in his 20's. If you have a chance to set yourself up for life at that point, I'd say you gotta take it. But who knows what else is going on in his life.

[jjfanec]

Mirotic signed with Barcelona. Odd. I think he could have made double what he'll make there, so he must have really wanted to go back to Europe. Can't imagine his injury-related struggles tanked his value that much in one year.

 

 

Highest paid player in the league is 4.6 million.

Mirotic turned down 3/45.

 

So Mirotic would have to be by far the highest paid player to even make it half. That's a lot of money to give up to go home. Dude's in his 20's. If you have a chance to set yourself up for life at that point, I'd say you gotta take it. But who knows what else is going on in his life.

 

Mirotic has made 45 million in his 5 year nba career. I think he could be set for life already if has even a semblance of a clue of how to handle money.

[OnTheBlack]

Mirotic signed with Barcelona. Odd. I think he could have made double what he'll make there, so he must have really wanted to go back to Europe. Can't imagine his injury-related struggles tanked his value that much in one year.

 

 

Highest paid player in the league is 4.6 million.

Mirotic turned down 3/45.

 

So Mirotic would have to be by far the highest paid player to even make it half. That's a lot of money to give up to go home. Dude's in his 20's. If you have a chance to set yourself up for life at that point, I'd say you gotta take it. But who knows what else is going on in his life.

 

Mirotic has made 45 million in his 5 year nba career. I think he could be set for life already if has even a semblance of a clue of how to handle money.

 

Sure, but with taxes and and fees you're probably looking at half that, and you'd still be absolutely right that you should be able to make that last, but still, you're giving up quite a bit of security.

 

It's also not like he's retiring. He's just taking a pay cut. He should still be bringing in millions.

[HiAndTight]

 

Now just renounce Mirotic and they can actually use some salary cap space to sign there players and THEN(the and then part is key here) use the MLE for teams over the cap but below the tax apron.

 

Wow, why is it so hard for you to understand that you can't do this? You realize your continued insistence on this undermines all your other arguments about the financial situation, right? Use cap space, get the room MLE. Period.

 

The owners are being cheap, just as I feared.

 

 

Hey, are you able to explain at what point the MLE changes?

 

In most links I've seen showing the Bucks using the MLE, it is not the "room" MLE that you insist it is if you use any salary cap room first.

 

So does a team need to be OVER the salary cap by July 2nd in order to qualify for the highest MLE?

If they use Bird rights to go over the cap, THEN are they allowed?

 

 

You've kinda mocked people that believe otherwise and you've talked at length about reading and going over the CBA, so presumably, you know. If you could post a link to the relevant part of the CBA that deals with the different MLE's and when what you are allowed to spend money...or even just tell us, it'd help a lot in this conversation about potential players we could sign.

 

This is your thread about the off-season and I'm very curious. With all the teams that have salary cap space, even if it's not enough to sign anyone of consequence, at what point does the amount they're able to spend on a Mid Level Exception become fixed?

[HiAndTight]

Mirotic signed with Barcelona. Odd. I think he could have made double what he'll make there, so he must have really wanted to go back to Europe. Can't imagine his injury-related struggles tanked his value that much in one year.

 

 

Highest paid player in the league is 4.6 million.

Mirotic turned down 3/45.

 

So Mirotic would have to be by far the highest paid player to even make it half. That's a lot of money to give up to go home. Dude's in his 20's. If you have a chance to set yourself up for life at that point, I'd say you gotta take it. But who knows what else is going on in his life.

 

Mirotic has made 45 million in his 5 year nba career. I think he could be set for life already if has even a semblance of a clue of how to handle money.

 

 

That's a good chunk of change. But you've been given a chance to change your family for generations. I don't think I'd make the decision to stay home rather than go over to Spain to play a game and pass up that type of money.

 

And you can take care of yourself and live an extremely comfortable life on the 20 or so he likely still has. But if I could make sure my Grandkids had money and their kids, I would.

 

Of course, I turned down an absolute dream job a few years ago because I had a Mother who was very-very ill and then a father who was battling a serious disease. So like you said, you never know a guys personal situation and how much that plays into these decisions. Money is great, but if you can be rich and happy or really rich and not happy, that's a rather easy decision.

[HiAndTight]

Allowing offer sheets like that gives RFA's some leverage if they want to leave. Teams often won't make offers when they know they will be matched. Then it's a stalemate that causes the player to get low-balled.

 

"Go get an offer, and we'll match."

"Nobody wants to make an offer because they know you'll match."

"Okay, here's an offer for 75% of what you would get if other teams wasted their time making market-value offers that they know we would match."

 

I hope it doesn't happen but I could see Brogdon wanting a more featured role.

 

 

That's the case with most RFA's, but as that article from ESPN stated, some RFA's actually end up getting paid MORE because the team wants them and they want to ensure that the offer won't be matched. The two examples mention were Otto Porter and Zach Lavine...though both teams matched(certainly glad the Bulls did). And I'm probably wrong, but I thought Lavine signed not long after a ACL.

 

In any event, if Brogdon is a RFA like that...and I think he'd fit perfectly in LAL if they could pair him with someone like Beverly, he could end up getting an offer for something crazy like 4/90. With it now being suggested he could get 20 per year...maybe the Lakers take one of the few 50/40/90 guys, they know he can run the point as can LeBron, the still have money to offer to Beverly, they still have Kuzma.

 

That'd be an incredibly scary 1-5. Beverly/Brogdon/LeBron/Kuzma/AD. Fill out their bench around him. 2 great shooters and one potentially great shooter in Kuzma with AD inside and LeBron doing whatever he wants to. They'd need depth.

 

Point is, I can see teams going after Brogdon hard. I really hope that we've got a deal worked out for him and they just haven't announced it. I'm not guessing this would happen, but I'd love to hear the Bucks agreed to 5/150 with Middleton and 4/60 with Brogdon as soon as they're able to sign, even if they wait to actually finalize the signings so they can up the cap space to sign Lopez and Hill if need be.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Now just renounce Mirotic and they can actually use some salary cap space to sign there players and THEN(the and then part is key here) use the MLE for teams over the cap but below the tax apron.

 

Wow, why is it so hard for you to understand that you can't do this? You realize your continued insistence on this undermines all your other arguments about the financial situation, right? Use cap space, get the room MLE. Period.

 

The owners are being cheap, just as I feared.

 

 

Hey, are you able to explain at what point the MLE changes?

 

In most links I've seen showing the Bucks using the MLE, it is not the "room" MLE that you insist it is if you use any salary cap room first.

 

So does a team need to be OVER the salary cap by July 2nd in order to qualify for the highest MLE?

If they use Bird rights to go over the cap, THEN are they allowed?

 

 

 

Basically you can use cap space or you can use the full MLE, but not both. If at any point you can say "we are allowed to sign this contract only because we have the cap space to do it" and the league rubber-stamps it, you've lost the full MLE for the year. You have only the room MLE instead. Think of it this way - why would there be a room MLE if you could use cap space and then use the full MLE? There would be no reason for the room MLE to exist.

 

The exceptions are basically designed to give capped out teams some flexibility and keep the market moving for players, but they don't want teams that already have cap space to have the full MLE because they don't need it I guess.

 

You don't have to be over the cap to get the full MLE. You just can't cite "cap space" as your legal basis for signing anyone. For example, if you're only $3m under the cap, you might say screw it and take the full MLE, which would be a little more than the room MLE + $3m in cap space, allowing you to hopefully pay a slightly better player. And you can still sign minimum contracts, as those are always allowed regardless of cap space (unless maybe you're over the apron but that's an edge case).

 

I'd prefer a hard cap, but whatever.

 

What really bothers me about waiving Hill, besides my obvious affinity for his all-around contributions and how badly they need him, is that they still didn't really free up enough cap space to pay Lopez much more than the full MLE anyway, which is what they would have had if they hadn't waived Hill. So they're acting like they had to do it to keep Lopez, but that's not true. And they're acting like they have to stretch Leuer to create cap space, but that's not necessarily true either, although it would be true if Brogdon gets a huge offer (but they can wait until that happens to stretch Leuer). And they might even give up another asset to unload Ersan, claiming they need even more cap space. And after that, they might still lose Lopez and Hill to surprise over-bidders. And Mirotic supposedly wanted to stay, but the Bucks weren't even interested because they're too invested in trying to trick everyone into thinking they needed cap space when it sure looks like they're just trying to save money.

 

They had Bird Rights to everyone except Lopez, whom they could use the full MLE on, and they had Hill under contract. There's no excuse for probably losing multiple good players from a 60-win team under the circumstances. I think they're not being called on their b.s. because most people will accept the excuse that they had to free up cap space and prioritize certain guys, but I think that's a misdirection play for being cheap.

 

They do know more about what the players are thinking though, so I have my fingers crossed that they got assurances from Lopez and Hill that they would accept certain offers regardless of being able to get more elsewhere. They might get a lot more elsewhere though, now that the Bucks don't have Bird Rights to either of them and have only the room MLE.

[coolhandluke121]

Supposedly Mirotic got 6/$80m from Barcelona, which is absolutely unheard of. He would be considered a basketball icon over there, but Euro teams have some history of defaulting on their payments (don't know if that's been addressed). In any case, it's more than double what I can remember any Euro player getting ever, though I haven't looked it up.

[HiAndTight]

 

 

 

Basically you can use cap space or you can use the full MLE, but not both. If at any point you can say "we are allowed to sign this contract only because we have the cap space to do it" and the league rubber-stamps it, you've lost the full MLE for the year. You have only the room MLE instead. Think of it this way - why would there be a room MLE if you could use cap space and then use the full MLE? There would be no reason for the room MLE to exist.

 

The exceptions are basically designed to give capped out teams some flexibility and keep the market moving for players, but they don't want teams that already have cap space to have the full MLE because they don't need it I guess.

 

You don't have to be over the cap to get the full MLE. You just can't cite "cap space" as your legal basis for signing anyone. For example, if you're only $3m under the cap, you might say screw it and take the full MLE, which would be a little more than the room MLE + $3m in cap space, allowing you to hopefully pay a slightly better player. And you can still sign minimum contracts, as those are always allowed regardless of cap space (unless maybe you're over the apron but that's an edge case).

 

I'd prefer a hard cap, but whatever.

 

What really bothers me about waiving Hill, besides my obvious affinity for his all-around contributions and how badly they need him, is that they still didn't really free up enough cap space to pay Lopez much more than the full MLE anyway, which is what they would have had if they hadn't waived Hill. So they're acting like they had to do it to keep Lopez, but that's not true. And they're acting like they have to stretch Leuer to create cap space, but that's not necessarily true either, although it would be true if Brogdon gets a huge offer (but they can wait until that happens to stretch Leuer). And they might even give up another asset to unload Ersan, claiming they need even more cap space. And after that, they might still lose Lopez and Hill to surprise over-bidders. And Mirotic supposedly wanted to stay, but the Bucks weren't even interested because they're too invested in trying to trick everyone into thinking they needed cap space when it sure looks like they're just trying to save money.

 

They had Bird Rights to everyone except Lopez, whom they could use the full MLE on, and they had Hill under contract. There's no excuse for probably losing multiple good players from a 60-win team under the circumstances. I think they're not being called on their b.s. because most people will accept the excuse that they had to free up cap space and prioritize certain guys, but I think that's a misdirection play for being cheap.

 

They do know more about what the players are thinking though, so I have my fingers crossed that they got assurances from Lopez and Hill that they would accept certain offers regardless of being able to get more elsewhere. They might get a lot more elsewhere though, now that the Bucks don't have Bird Rights to either of them and have only the room MLE.

 

 

I really would have thought that at least if you signed your own players and were over the cap you'd be able to use the full MLE to answer your rhetorical question why would you be able to do both. Even the Bucks, while we tecnically have "salary cap" room, we really don't.

 

But so it comes down to you can either use whatever cap space you have...or the full MLE. So...probably not much of a difference in this case in terms of money, but if we use our cap space to sign Lopez, we'll at least still have the room MLE to sign someone else.

 

Kinda screws us as we're definitely going to go over the cap this year and into the luxury tax and once we DO go into the luxury tax, we're not going to be coming out of it for a while.

 

 

I'd really like to see the NBA go back to the old luxury tax system while we're on it. The dollar for dollar tax. This repeater tax and the incremental increases....unless the salary cap blows up in a few years(and even then, I believe Giannis will be getting 35 pct of the tax anyway) we're going to have a huge tax payment if we sign Brogdon and Middleton to what they're expected to get, and that's before what we could spend on any of our young players like Wilson or DDV.

 

 

And back to Hill, realistically, they'll probably be able to get him for close to what ESPN has him at, 4-6 million dollars. He was very important, we all agree. But that was this year. I pointed out his recent past. And yes, I'd bet on him helping us again in the future, particularly in the post-season...but not at that price. I'd rather bring in Darren Collison for the vets minimium than do that.

 

You're taking a micro view of the finances instead of a macro one. Again, after signing Middleton and Brogdon and Lopez, they'll almost certainly be into the luxury tax. Once they're in, they won't get out until Giannis leaves Milwaukee.

 

So it's not just about how much they'll pay in tax NOW, it's about how much they'll be paying in the future. I hardly think that makes them cheap. This isn't having Serge, Harden, KD, and Westbrook, coming off a finals appearance and making an offer to Harden for a few million less than he's worth so they don't have to pay the tax and giving him 1 hour to decide.

 

I get that you like Hill...and I like him to. But I'm having a hard time justifying them paying Brogdon 19 or 20 million. How on Earth could they turn around and pay Hill that? Especially when he'll likely sign for significantly less than that.

 

As for them not having interest in Mirotic, I'm fine with that. They have Wilson. He has to prove he can do it over a sustained period of time, but he's shown in the limited action he can shoot and he's a much better defender than Mirotic. He's more active and athletic. And that's another ~15 million that we'd be looking at. It's one thing to expect the Bucks owners to pony up for a contender, it's another to just pay anyone and everyone who was on the team whatever they want. It's very possible that in Mirotic and Hill they saved themselves 25 million dollars, get Hill back and are actually better for it.

 

At this point, I'm just hoping if they do lose Brogdon, they at least get something back for him. This would be the perfect situation for a sign and trade, would it not? Someone wants Brogdon bad enough to pay him 4/90, they have to give up a pick or a player.

 

If the Suns do it, I want Josh Jackson. If the Mavs do it, I want their young Jackson. If the Pacers do it....I want Sabonis, but since that obviously wouldn't happen, they can give up a protected pick and the guy who went to Creighton and is a Kyle Korver type. Can't recall the name. But he's pretty much exclusively a catch and shoot type player.

 

 

Here's an article I read a while back about Charlotte's dilemma with Kemba. It's somewhat similar to ours with Middleton if we didn't have Giannis(and I'd have let him walk in that scenario).

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mortenjensen/2019/05/23/nba-supermax-contracts-vs-repeater-tax-penalties-somethings-gotta-give/#7dddac30239e

 

 

It was just such a blow that Jabari got hurt twice and that draft that was supposed to be SOO good at the top ended up producing two middling players(Wiggins isn't even a great defender which tells me he just doesn't care that much) and then a superstar who clearly is not in shape.

 

That cost us our last best chance at getting a true #2 star. I like Middleton, but he's not that. And we're pretty much tying our hands for the next half decade because if we don't, we'll lose Giannis anyway.

 

[sarcasm]Maybe Giannis will decide to go back and play for a year in Europe with his pal Mirotic so we can have a Duncan like situation in Milwaukee without the actual injury....[/sarcasm]