Bucks off-season thread (non-draft)

[HiAndTight]

I don't think losing Brogdon hurts that bad only because losing to Toronto wasn't a matter of not having enough talent, but scheme and execution. I'm expecting that this entire offseason is being spent designing an offensive system to beat the Giannis Wall. I remember some plays against Toronto where they started having Giannis down in the 3-point corner to try and start his drives from there.

 

Will Korver really have that much of an impact? Offensively he seems to me a mirror image of Tony Snell--strictly a catch-and-shoot player who can knock it down, but only shoots when he's wide open. And Snell didn't light up the box scores.

 

 

I think people want to convince themselves that losing Brogdon doesn't hurt because they want to be optimistic. In the playoffs, the rotation shrinks and losing a starter who shot 50/40/90 is an enormous loss. Getting guys to fill out the roster, something they could have and would have done either way doesn't change that.

 

And the problem vs Toronto wasn't scheme, it was that the Bucks stopped hitting their shots and the Raptors started hitting theirs. Losing the best shooter you had in that series who could also defend 3 positions and do multiple things does not make us better on paper.

 

Hopefully with Kawhi leaving the Bucks get out of the East, but if they end up playing the Clippers, they're gonna need another guy who can handle the ball with George, Leonard and Beverly on the floor.

[HiAndTight]

Kyle Korver is one of the finest 3-point shooters in NBA history. 43% 3-point shooter lifetime. 40% last year. He can hit from anywhere - even with defenders on him. Of course, you want him open, but the guy is pretty unique.

 

However, his defense is bad, and at 38, his skills are fading. Should be a good role player. Perfect for the club.

 

 

Kinda that Del Curry on the Bucks type role. That's a really nice player to have. And you can't just keep a guy on him. Not with Giannis on the floor. Giannis, Bled...the way they both are able to get to the basket, Korver's gonna be able to get some open looks. And hell, he can hit contested looks still as well.

 

I don't think they're as good as they would have been had they kept Brogdon, and I'm still not sure what happened with the TPE, if they have it or not, but given the situation going into this past season and Giannis latest comments, there's at least room for optimism. The Giannis wanting to be like Dirk, Steph....Duncan, I can't remember who else. Kobe maybe. But guys who all played in one place.

 

Now it's be really great is DDV is cleared to practice at the start of camp. He wasn't clear yet by Summer League..which isn't all that telling as you're not gonna risk a player for Summer League, but still a bit disconcerting.

[patrickgpe]

Bucks round out the roster with Dragan Bender, seems like a great flier as a former #4 overall pick. Really like how the roster finalized. Maybe he can find his stroke in Bud's system.

[nate82]

That is a nice pickup hopefully he can turn it around as he is still very young.

[patrickgpe]

wish they would have gotten some more help at the point after loosing Brodgon, but in todays NBA it doesn't matter as much as it used to who was bringing up the ball. Also they only had minimum deals that they could shell out, so it is what it is.

 

He was compared to Kristaps coming out of Croatia, so obviously if he becomes even half as good as him, its a great signing.

[GAME05]

Obviously losing Brogdon hurts the team and it'd be impossible to argue otherwise. But what I saw as the issue against Toronto was that Giannis was getting triple-teamed and Bledsoe was getting double-teamed on his drives and either there weren't available quick kick-outs or they just didn't see them. And I see that as an issue with scheme. Maybe the Bucks don't hit their shots and still lose, but I saw the bigger issue being a lack of created opportunities than hitting the opportunities they had. Granted, Toronto's defense was flawless.

[OnTheBlack]

Obviously losing Brogdon hurts the team and it'd be impossible to argue otherwise. But what I saw as the issue against Toronto was that Giannis was getting triple-teamed and Bledsoe was getting double-teamed on his drives and either there weren't available quick kick-outs or they just didn't see them. And I see that as an issue with scheme. Maybe the Bucks don't hit their shots and still lose, but I saw the bigger issue being a lack of created opportunities than hitting the opportunities they had. Granted, Toronto's defense was flawless.

 

 

Maybe we just see it differently. Toronto did a great job of not committing to the double team too early so they could stay in the passing lanes, but Bledsoe was just so incredibly incompetent in that series..and he didn't have a great defender on him. All regular season he attacked the rim and went up strong. In this series...it was like he was trying to make these ridiculous trick shots.

 

But the Bucks were up 2-0...they had big leads in a couple others and went to OT. I don't know what schematic changes we could have made. The series changed when their supporting cast starting hitting their 3's and when they started playing Kawhi on Giannis.

[OnTheBlack]

Bucks round out the roster with Dragan Bender, seems like a great flier as a former #4 overall pick. Really like how the roster finalized. Maybe he can find his stroke in Bud's system.

 

 

Damn, I love that move. I didn't think there was a chance the Bucks would actually go after him. I think it's unlikely he ever becomes much, but he's got that skill set to be that skilled European stretch 4 type.

 

Just really surprised to see him end up here after all the moves we made to add bigs. But good low risk, high reward target.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

This team has one team that should make them even have to play hard in the East and that's Philadelphia. I can give them the "new to the big stage" pass for last season. But this team has to be in the Finals next season. No excuses left. This roster is now better than it was last season. I'm not expecting anything substantially more than 8-9ppg and 15 minutes from Korver. But just keeping people honest when he's on the floor and hitting a couple shots is all they need.

[patrickgpe]

 

 

Damn, I love that move. I didn't think there was a chance the Bucks would actually go after him. I think it's unlikely he ever becomes much, but he's got that skill set to be that skilled European stretch 4 type.

 

Just really surprised to see him end up here after all the moves we made to add bigs. But good low risk, high reward target.

I agree, he gave up a deal for a team in Moscow for a partially guaranteed 1st year and non guaranteed second. Had to have a desire to play for bud in hopes of revitalizing his career. Anyway, the depth on the bench is outstanding to the point some pretty darn good players will get DNP’s most nights.

[OnTheBlack]

 

 

Damn, I love that move. I didn't think there was a chance the Bucks would actually go after him. I think it's unlikely he ever becomes much, but he's got that skill set to be that skilled European stretch 4 type.

 

Just really surprised to see him end up here after all the moves we made to add bigs. But good low risk, high reward target.

I agree, he gave up a deal for a team in Moscow for a partially guaranteed 1st year and non guaranteed second. Had to have a desire to play for bud in hopes of revitalizing his career. Anyway, the depth on the bench is outstanding to the point some pretty darn good players will get DNP’s most nights.

 

 

Horst is really been impressive. Also, really cool to see players that other teams really wanted come to Milwaukee. I'm sure a lot of teams would have gladly taken a similar chance on Bender. We know that Korver was only looking at contenders and frankly, he would have been more important to Philly and likely had a better chance at success with all their bigs taking up a lot of attention and yet he signs with Milwaukee because of Bud and a shot at a title.

 

Still don't like the loss of Brogdon...and we could have done all these things while still paying him, but we're past that now and Horst has done an awesome job of putting the best possible team together while still keeping an eye on the future and developing some young players.

 

Bender probably won't ever amount to anything. BUT....with little pressure on him, Giannis as a great compliment, just maybe he becomes a star. Somewhere, somehow if the Bucks are going to have this long sustained run where they contend for and hopefully win multiple titles, they'll need another star. This seems to be the perfect player to take a shot on and hope that maybe he puts it all together.

 

At the very least, he should be a versatile defender who might be able to help out defending someone like Gasol better(ie, stepping out to protect the perimeter shot) and he's a smart decision maker and facilitator at the 4 or 5.

 

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dragan-Bender-62877/

 

I found this write up pretty interesting and perhaps why some consider him a disappointment thus far. This article pretty much said he wasn't likely to have the immediate impact that Porzingas has had, but that he has a pretty high upside.

 

And to get him so cheap? Hard to ask for much more.

[OnTheBlack]

This team has one team that should make them even have to play hard in the East and that's Philadelphia. I can give them the "new to the big stage" pass for last season. But this team has to be in the Finals next season. No excuses left. This roster is now better than it was last season. I'm not expecting anything substantially more than 8-9ppg and 15 minutes from Korver. But just keeping people honest when he's on the floor and hitting a couple shots is all they need.

 

 

If they stay healthy, you're absolutely right. I'm just not that impressed with the Sixers. I love the talent they have, but it's about matchup's and last year I was really pulling for them vs the Raptors. Maybe I was wrong, but I'm just not as scared of them unless White or someone breaks out, they're really lacking at guard. Even if they'd brought back JJ they'd be more scary.

 

There's also the fact that I STILL think Giannis has another level he can ascend to whereas I just don't think Embid is going to. Simmons still has a lot of room to grow, but his shot is way behind Giannis' at this point.

[patrickgpe]

I was so wrong on Horst when he was hired, but to be fair to me. I was more upset at the process rather than the guy. They had their GM in waiting in Zanik and because the group couldn't agree, they hired a consensus pick.

[coolhandluke121]

I was irate when I realized they were going to stay under the tax threshold, but I have to admit they have an impressive roster considering they didn't pay the luxury tax. They're not as good as their peak last year, but they're good enough to win a title. And experience was probably a bigger issue than lack of talent anyway.

 

That said, I'm a little concerned that this roster is going to be better on paper than on the court. They got a lot of pretty well-known name guys, but all of them have big question marks. None of Smith, Matthews, or Korver can replace Brogdon, and you can't just replace him by committee. I'm not even a big Brogdon fan, but every other option (except Hill when he plays with Bledsoe) has significant disadvantages compared to Brogdon without any significant off-setting advantages. The old guys are going to be liabilities at times due to declining athleticism and the youngest guys are too inexperienced or just not talented enough.

 

Basically the Bucks already had a quantity-over-quality issue and they made it even worse. Their depth will be nice in the regular season, but a team like Toronto last season or maybe Philly this year (better top 4 or 5 guys) will still probably have a slight advantage in the playoffs.

[nate82]

I think Bender might be a sneaky good acquisition for the Bucks. If Bender can re-find his 3pt shot again he could be a very valuable asset in this offense. What the Bucks really need is for one of Brown, DDV, and Connaughton to step up and be a competent SG for the Bucks either off the bench or starting.

[OnTheBlack]

I was so wrong on Horst when he was hired, but to be fair to me. I was more upset at the process rather than the guy. They had their GM in waiting in Zanik and because the group couldn't agree, they hired a consensus pick.

 

 

I thought Horst was Lasry making the decision against the consensus. Or whoever was in charge. Honestly, I haven't really paid attention to that.

 

But that whole process was really embarrassing in any event. I don't think it was unreasonable to be upset with the process at all. We felt like a totally dysfunctional franchise at the time. And...we were. Horst was not the plan.

[OnTheBlack]

I was irate when I realized they were going to stay under the tax threshold, but I have to admit they have an impressive roster considering they didn't pay the luxury tax. They're not as good as their peak last year, but they're good enough to win a title. And experience was probably a bigger issue than lack of talent anyway.

 

That said, I'm a little concerned that this roster is going to be better on paper than on the court. They got a lot of pretty well-known name guys, but all of them have big question marks. None of Smith, Matthews, or Korver can replace Brogdon, and you can't just replace him by committee. I'm not even a big Brogdon fan, but every other option (except Hill when he plays with Bledsoe) has significant disadvantages compared to Brogdon without any significant off-setting advantages. The old guys are going to be liabilities at times due to declining athleticism and the youngest guys are too inexperienced or just not talented enough.

 

Basically the Bucks already had a quantity-over-quality issue and they made it even worse. Their depth will be nice in the regular season, but a team like Toronto last season or maybe Philly this year (better top 4 or 5 guys) will still probably have a slight advantage in the playoffs.

 

 

Even when Hill plays with Bledsoe there's still a significant liability. Brogdon was physical and long and far more equipped to guard larger 2's and 3's than Bled or Hill.

 

But I agree, playoffs, depth isn't as important as rotations shrink. That's still a problem. But..Brogdon's gone, so...they've recovered as well as possible.

[Mr Southpaw]

I think Bender might be a sneaky good acquisition for the Bucks. If Bender can re-find his 3pt shot again he could be a very valuable asset in this offense. What the Bucks really need is for one of Brown, DDV, and Connaughton to step up and be a competent SG for the Bucks either off the bench or starting.

 

If this happens, the Bucks will be just fine. I hope it is DDV as he has the most upside.

[OnTheBlack]

I think Bender might be a sneaky good acquisition for the Bucks. If Bender can re-find his 3pt shot again he could be a very valuable asset in this offense. What the Bucks really need is for one of Brown, DDV, and Connaughton to step up and be a competent SG for the Bucks either off the bench or starting.

 

If this happens, the Bucks will be just fine. I hope it is DDV as he has the most upside.

 

 

The more I read about Bender, it sounds like he's a pretty competent defender and pretty savvy or high BB IQ guy who they can run the offense through also.

 

Really, if he's able to become a good shooter, if he's able to become a good passing big who play and defend bigs in the post and on the perimeter..if either of these things happen, the Bucks will have hit pretty big.

 

 

In the short term though, I absolutely agree, someone stepping up as a ball handler and a shooter is more important. And I think DDV is our best shot because I don't see it coming from Brown and I think Connaughton is a really great glue player, but I don't know if he has much upside left.

 

But who knows what'll happen. Nobody has done more with minimum deals this year IMO than Horst, he got Mirotic for a bunch of 2nd round picks....so if it looks like we need another ball handler or someone to step in to help out Hill, Bled, Matthews and company, I have little doubt he does it. I just worry that things will LOOK good, ie, Bledsoe and the need for a ball handler won't arise until it's too late. But that's a little paranoia. Maybe Bledsoe will fulfill his potential next year.

[GAME05]

The luxury tax penalty goes way up when you go over a second straight year. So maybe at this time next year we'll be happy to have the option of going over for our one last push to hope Giannis stays.

[HiAndTight]

The luxury tax penalty goes way up when you go over a second straight year. So maybe at this time next year we'll be happy to have the option of going over for our one last push to hope Giannis stays.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure it goes up if you've been over it 3 of the past 4 years, pretty sure it doesn't goes up or way up if it's just back to back years.

[GAME05]

Ah, thanks for the correction.

[FVBrewerFan]

I was irate when I realized they were going to stay under the tax threshold, but I have to admit they have an impressive roster considering they didn't pay the luxury tax. They're not as good as their peak last year, but they're good enough to win a title. And experience was probably a bigger issue than lack of talent anyway.

 

That said, I'm a little concerned that this roster is going to be better on paper than on the court. They got a lot of pretty well-known name guys, but all of them have big question marks. None of Smith, Matthews, or Korver can replace Brogdon, and you can't just replace him by committee. I'm not even a big Brogdon fan, but every other option (except Hill when he plays with Bledsoe) has significant disadvantages compared to Brogdon without any significant off-setting advantages. The old guys are going to be liabilities at times due to declining athleticism and the youngest guys are too inexperienced or just not talented enough.

 

Basically the Bucks already had a quantity-over-quality issue and they made it even worse. Their depth will be nice in the regular season, but a team like Toronto last season or maybe Philly this year (better top 4 or 5 guys) will still probably have a slight advantage in the playoffs.

 

I agree to a point about the quantity over quality thing. But here's the thing. If Brogdon was back and the team plays roughly the same in the playoffs are they going to win a title? My point is, Giannis, Middleton, and Bledsoe simply have to play better that they did in the Toronto series or the rest is just conversation. Or keep it real simple- Giannis needs to play better. Having Brogdon or Korver or whoever can't make up for that.

 

This quantity should put them in the hunt for the best regular season record again, which still has value. They can always make a trade late in the year for that quality, or maybe they have it on the roster already. But plenty of time to work that out before the playoffs. I (and nearly everyone) thought Mirotic would be that difference maker last year, just didn't turn out that way. But it shows they can and will make a move like that if necessary.

 

These off-season personnel moves are big, but not as big as the adjustments the coaching staff will make. Now that they have a full season of tape, I really hope they come back with the right adjustments on both sides of the court. Starting with #1, how to use Giannis.

[Mr Southpaw]

I was irate when I realized they were going to stay under the tax threshold, but I have to admit they have an impressive roster considering they didn't pay the luxury tax. They're not as good as their peak last year, but they're good enough to win a title. And experience was probably a bigger issue than lack of talent anyway.

 

That said, I'm a little concerned that this roster is going to be better on paper than on the court. They got a lot of pretty well-known name guys, but all of them have big question marks. None of Smith, Matthews, or Korver can replace Brogdon, and you can't just replace him by committee. I'm not even a big Brogdon fan, but every other option (except Hill when he plays with Bledsoe) has significant disadvantages compared to Brogdon without any significant off-setting advantages. The old guys are going to be liabilities at times due to declining athleticism and the youngest guys are too inexperienced or just not talented enough.

 

Basically the Bucks already had a quantity-over-quality issue and they made it even worse. Their depth will be nice in the regular season, but a team like Toronto last season or maybe Philly this year (better top 4 or 5 guys) will still probably have a slight advantage in the playoffs.

 

 

I agree to a point about the quantity over quality thing. But here's the thing. If Brogdon was back and the team plays roughly the same in the playoffs are they going to win a title? My point is, Giannis, Middleton, and Bledsoe simply have to play better that they did in the Toronto series or the rest is just conversation. Or keep it real simple- Giannis needs to play better. Having Brogdon or Korver or whoever can't make up for that.

 

This quantity should put them in the hunt for the best regular season record again, which still has value. They can always make a trade late in the year for that quality, or maybe they have it on the roster already. But plenty of time to work that out before the playoffs. I (and nearly everyone) thought Mirotic would be that difference maker last year, just didn't turn out that way. But it shows they can and will make a move like that if necessary.

 

These off-season personnel moves are big, but not as big as the adjustments the coaching staff will make. Now that they have a full season of tape, I really hope they come back with the right adjustments on both sides of the court. Starting with #1, how to use Giannis.

 

 

Nice comments. I was thinking about the same line of thought. Giannis starting in the post once in a while would be a start, he starts way too far out on most possessions. also Middleton needs to continue to focus with his strength, the mid-range game, at the end of the shot clock. Two points are better than a missed bomb. Bledsoe, just take the ball to the hoop and use his length and make better passing decisions when doubled. All of this can start the a new, more efficient Bucks team. The stars of the team just need to grow up in terms of honing their games. Doing this will make the role players look even better, because of the lack of pressure put on them to do things they cannot do.

[coolhandluke121]

 

I agree to a point about the quantity over quality thing. But here's the thing. If Brogdon was back and the team plays roughly the same in the playoffs are they going to win a title? My point is, Giannis, Middleton, and Bledsoe simply have to play better that they did in the Toronto series or the rest is just conversation. Or keep it real simple- Giannis needs to play better. Having Brogdon or Korver or whoever can't make up for that.

 

This quantity should put them in the hunt for the best regular season record again, which still has value. They can always make a trade late in the year for that quality, or maybe they have it on the roster already. But plenty of time to work that out before the playoffs. I (and nearly everyone) thought Mirotic would be that difference maker last year, just didn't turn out that way. But it shows they can and will make a move like that if necessary.

 

These off-season personnel moves are big, but not as big as the adjustments the coaching staff will make. Now that they have a full season of tape, I really hope they come back with the right adjustments on both sides of the court. Starting with #1, how to use Giannis.

 

Sure, they can make some adjustments in the playoffs. But the larger issue is that Giannis is the only regular all-star caliber player on the team. I'm disappointed with some of the decisions they made not because I like Brogdon and Mirotic more than Middleton, but rather because keeping both of them instead of Khris would have probably been cheaper, would have left them with slightly more overall talent IMO, and (most importantly) would have left them with more flexibility for finding the right combination of vets and young players to trade for another star. Teams that are trading away a guy like Anthony Davis or Paul George aren't looking for a Khris Middleton on a near-max deal. Brogdon + Leuer on an expiring deal + picks + Brown/DDV types are much more flexible trade packages.

 

There was a time when I thought they could lose just Brogdon and keep everyone else, but when it became obvious that they would have to lose two good players to keep Khris, I switched to wanting them to let Khris walk. I am less concerned about it now than I was because I didn't realize they were going to be able to persuade so many veterans to stay/join on bargain deals, but I still have this sinking feeling about the money the commitment they made to Khris.