2019-05-19: Brewers (Woodruff) at Braves (Foltynewicz) [Brewers win, 3-2 in 10 innings -- Solo HRs from Yelich, Hiura, Gamel; Woodruff lasts 8 IP]

[TURBO]

Stats and stats but there is something to be said for the eyeball test.

 

Sedar is not a good 3B coach. He sends guys that are not only out at the plate, but out by a great deal. Sometimes 20 feet.

 

He is bad, and no stat you throw out there can convince otherwise.

[82brewcrew82]

Driving on a road trip now, so listened to Jim Powell on the drive. They said the play where Counsell was ejected was unreviewable, but should have been foul. And earlier this week the Brewers thought they threw someone out on the same play and it was ruled foul. Amazing how every Brewers replay or call seems to go against them

The family and I were at the both the Friday and Saturday games and listened to the Sunday game on the way out of town. They also were very clear that the bounce on the wild pitch was a very lucky bounce. Uncanny luck.

[markedman5]

Not only was it a lucky bounce but the 3rd base coach has little or nothing to do with that kind of play. the runner reads and reacts with help from the hitter.

 

I swear people just love to hate on the 3rd base coach. They get no credit when a guy scores on a close play....but all the blame when they take a calculated risk and a guy gets thrown out.

 

My guess is every fan base hates the third base coach........thankless job.

[pacopete4]

Not only was it a lucky bounce but the 3rd base coach has little or nothing to do with that kind of play. the runner reads and reacts with help from the hitter.

 

I swear people just love to hate on the 3rd base coach. They get no credit when a guy scores on a close play....but all the blame when they take a calculated risk and a guy gets thrown out.

 

My guess is every fan base hates the third base coach........thankless job.

 

Yep, this is spot on for me. It is a very easy thing to complain about so most do. I am sure each and every year there are times where guys get hosed at home plate by a wide margin because of a bad decision by the 3B coach.

[PeaveyFury]

Stats and stats but there is something to be said for the eyeball test.

 

The eyeball test is what people rely on when their opinion isn't factually correct.

 

How many other 3B coaches have you extensively watched to determine their performance relative to his?

[nate82]

I will have to dig up the article again but the last time this was looked at it was found that 3B coaches didn't send enough. This was about 10 years ago and the 3B coaches were only sending when it was a 90% chance or better. Should be sending when there is a 70% or higher chance the runner will be safe.

 

You also want to send at 2-outs even if it is a 50-50 play. I believe the chances to score from 3rd with 2-outs is far lower than 50% probably close to 30%.

 

I don't think Sedar sends enough.

[Lathund]

I will have to dig up the article again but the last time this was looked at it was found that 3B coaches didn't send enough. This was about 10 years ago and the 3B coaches were only sending when it was a 90% chance or better. Should be sending when there is a 70% or higher chance the runner will be safe.

 

You also want to send at 2-outs even if it is a 50-50 play. I believe the chances to score from 3rd with 2-outs is far lower than 50% probably close to 30%.

 

I don't think Sedar sends enough.

 

I read the same thing in a more recent book (Russell Carleton's "The Shift"), and the numbers were similar, IIRC it was 65% success needed. The author only half jokingly stated that teams, at least the more conservative ones, would be better off with actual windmills who send the runner every time. The numbers were different, but the conclusion similar, on tagging up at 2nd, on going first to third, and pretty much any baserunning scenario. But human beings would rather err by being too cautious than looking bad when even a correct send fails. And no Wonder considering how much crap 3B coaches already get when they're being overly cautious!

 

What also fascinates me in these discussions is that some people seem to think that giving stop signs or taking a hitter's batting gloves is all that the base coaches do. The in game part of their job is probably far less impactful than the coaching aspects.

[sveumrules]

Stats and stats but there is something to be said for the eyeball test.

 

Sedar is not a good 3B coach. He sends guys that are not only out at the plate, but out by a great deal. Sometimes 20 feet.

 

He is bad, and no stat you throw out there can convince otherwise.

 

He has been employed by the Brewers for a long time, if they thought was bad he would be fired. That isn't a stat, it's just logic.

 

If he was going rogue out there & just sending guys at his own discretion, he would have been fired.

 

That he hasn't been fired, when everyone thinks it's so obvious he should be, indicates to me that him sending guys aggressively is part of an organizational philosophy dictated from the top down.

[TURBO]

Not only was it a lucky bounce but the 3rd base coach has little or nothing to do with that kind of play. the runner reads and reacts with help from the hitter.

 

I swear people just love to hate on the 3rd base coach. They get no credit when a guy scores on a close play....but all the blame when they take a calculated risk and a guy gets thrown out.

 

My guess is every fan base hates the third base coach........thankless job.

 

Did anyone blame Sedar for that play? If so, there was nothing anyone could do abut it. It was just terribly unlucky. I'm not going to go abck and read, but I don't think anyone actually blamed him for that play specifically, it's all the other boneheaded ones...

[TURBO]

Stats and stats but there is something to be said for the eyeball test.

 

The eyeball test is what people rely on when their opinion isn't factually correct.

 

How many other 3B coaches have you extensively watched to determine their performance relative to his?

 

None, I just know that the windmill is bad at what he does because I watch 150 games a year...

[Pugger]

Stats and stats but there is something to be said for the eyeball test.

 

Sedar is not a good 3B coach. He sends guys that are not only out at the plate, but out by a great deal. Sometimes 20 feet.

 

He is bad, and no stat you throw out there can convince otherwise.

 

He has been employed by the Brewers for a long time, if they thought was bad he would be fired. That isn't a stat, it's just logic.

 

If he was going rogue out there & just sending guys at his own discretion, he would have been fired.

 

That he hasn't been fired, when everyone thinks it's so obvious he should be, indicates to me that him sending guys aggressively is part of an organizational philosophy dictated from the top down.

 

Just because they keep a coach around doesn't mean they can't do better. McCarthy kept Capers around too damn long in GB.

[sveumrules]

Stats and stats but there is something to be said for the eyeball test.

 

Sedar is not a good 3B coach. He sends guys that are not only out at the plate, but out by a great deal. Sometimes 20 feet.

 

He is bad, and no stat you throw out there can convince otherwise.

 

He has been employed by the Brewers for a long time, if they thought was bad he would be fired. That isn't a stat, it's just logic.

 

If he was going rogue out there & just sending guys at his own discretion, he would have been fired.

 

That he hasn't been fired, when everyone thinks it's so obvious he should be, indicates to me that him sending guys aggressively is part of an organizational philosophy dictated from the top down.

 

Just because they keep a coach around doesn't mean they can't do better. McCarthy kept Capers around too damn long in GB.

 

Eventually Capers performance was judged as being below standard by his employers, he was fired.

 

Sedar has not been fired, which indicates to me that his employers have found his performance acceptable to this point.

[TURBO]

 

Sedar has not been fired, which indicates to me that his employers have found his performance acceptable to this point.

 

Which is just baffling to me...

[sveumrules]

Stats and stats but there is something to be said for the eyeball test.

 

The eyeball test is what people rely on when their opinion isn't factually correct.

 

How many other 3B coaches have you extensively watched to determine their performance relative to his?

 

None, I just know that the windmill is bad at what he does because I watch 150 games a year...

 

There are 2,430 MLB games per season.

 

Even if somebody watches 150 Brewers games plus 75 more random games throughtout the year, they've still seen less than 10% of all MLB games.

 

What if 3rd base coaches in the other 90 plus % of the games are making the same or worse decisions?

 

What if our front office has actually parsed data from all 2,430 MLB games over multiple seasons & determined the best course of action is to be aggressive sending runners in certain situations & have communicated to Eddie they would like him to act accordingly & that is how he somehow manages to keep his job year after year?

[TURBO]

 

What if 3rd base coaches in the other 90 plus % of the games are making the same or worse decisions?

 

 

I simply don't care about the other 90%, I only care about the Brewers, and our 3B coach is bad, very bad.

 

 

What if our front office has actually parsed data from all 2,430 MLB games over multiple seasons & determined the best course of action is to be aggressive sending runners in certain situations & have communicated to Eddie they would like him to act accordingly & that is how he somehow manages to keep his job year after year?

 

Doesn't change the fact that his judgement is poor in certain situations. He is bad at his job.

[PeaveyFury]

 

What if 3rd base coaches in the other 90 plus % of the games are making the same or worse decisions?

 

 

I simply don't care about the other 90%, I only care about the Brewers, and our 3B coach is bad, very bad.

 

 

What if our front office has actually parsed data from all 2,430 MLB games over multiple seasons & determined the best course of action is to be aggressive sending runners in certain situations & have communicated to Eddie they would like him to act accordingly & that is how he somehow manages to keep his job year after year?

 

Doesn't change the fact that his judgement is poor in certain situations. He is bad at his job.

 

Yet, statistically he isn’t, and you’ve no comparable sample to benchmark to. Perhaps it’s your observation that is flawed?

[areacodes]

 

What if 3rd base coaches in the other 90 plus % of the games are making the same or worse decisions?

 

 

I simply don't care about the other 90%, I only care about the Brewers, and our 3B coach is bad, very bad.

 

 

What if our front office has actually parsed data from all 2,430 MLB games over multiple seasons & determined the best course of action is to be aggressive sending runners in certain situations & have communicated to Eddie they would like him to act accordingly & that is how he somehow manages to keep his job year after year?

 

Doesn't change the fact that his judgement is poor in certain situations. He is bad at his job.

 

Just repeating it doesn’t make it so and we’ve read your opinion of Sedar on this board enough to know where you stand. You don’t like him and think he does a terrible job, we get it

 

He could make the correct call 20 times in a row and if on the 21st time the runner gets gunned out at home, we know who is going to be complaining in the IGT about good ol’ Windmill.

 

There are posters who are trying to engage you to think about other 3B coaches and bring up people who have done statistical analysis on how often a runner should be sent, but you don’t care. You lose credibility when you aren’t even willing to consider that your viewpoint might be skewed because of your sample.

[TURBO]

yup, I'm the only one who complains about Sedar...

[TURBO]

 

Yet, statistically he isn’t, and you’ve no comparable sample to benchmark to. Perhaps it’s your observation that is flawed?

 

Or perhaps I am right...

 

I don't think it would be hard to find 20 other posters who agree with me, yet you guys continue to hammer my opinion because you don't agree with it.

 

That's fine.

 

There are no stats that you can throw at me that prove he is a good 3B coach. I know better, I've seen enough to know why I formed my opinion.

[jerichoholicninja]

There are no stats that you can throw at me that prove he is a good 3B coach. I know better, I've seen enough to know why I formed my opinion.

 

Quite frankly, there are no stats that can prove anything about a 3B coaches' ability. There are way too many factors to consider. Perhaps with Statcast we can somehow come up with a "scored probability" based on a runner's speed, jump and read of the ball on the play, and the fielder's arm and accuracy. Not to mention number of outs, other runners on the bases, and context of batting order.

[Oxy]

If it's a close game, I'm basically okay with anybody who gets sent home with 2 outs unless Yelich is on deck, Aguilar is the guy coming in from 3rd, or the scouting report on the defense is known to be stellar.

 

It's a difficult defensive play to tag a guy out at home. If the throw happens to be perfect and it looks bad cuz then the guy is out by 20 feet, so be it. Most of the time the catcher has to move and catch an offline throw in the dirt/short hop, then maneuver himself and his glove back in front of the plate to tag the guy sliding/diving 3-6 feet outside or inside the plate directly opposite the direction the catcher moved to catch the ball.

[PeaveyFury]

 

Yet, statistically he isn’t, and you’ve no comparable sample to benchmark to. Perhaps it’s your observation that is flawed?

 

Or perhaps I am right...

 

I don't think it would be hard to find 20 other posters who agree with me, yet you guys continue to hammer my opinion because you don't agree with it.

 

That's fine.

 

There are no stats that you can throw at me that prove he is a good 3B coach. I know better, I've seen enough to know why I formed my opinion.

 

But your opinion could be very wrong, since it's based on basically nothing other than your own observations of just him and nothing else, as you've clearly said. It's fine if you have an opinion. Where your opinion is getting "hammered on": is because actual facts suggest it's wrong, and you've stated that you don't care. That's generally not the best way to be on the correct side of arguing a point...

[TURBO]

 

Yet, statistically he isn’t, and you’ve no comparable sample to benchmark to. Perhaps it’s your observation that is flawed?

 

Or perhaps I am right...

 

I don't think it would be hard to find 20 other posters who agree with me, yet you guys continue to hammer my opinion because you don't agree with it.

 

That's fine.

 

There are no stats that you can throw at me that prove he is a good 3B coach. I know better, I've seen enough to know why I formed my opinion.

 

But your opinion could be very wrong, since it's based on basically nothing other than your own observations of just him and nothing else, as you've clearly said. It's fine if you have an opinion. Where your opinion is getting "hammered on": is because actual facts suggest it's wrong, and you've stated that you don't care. That's generally not the best way to be on the correct side of arguing a point...

 

actual facts?

 

ok then...

[sveumrules]

The only relevant fact is that Eddie has remained employed by the Brewers through multiple regimes.

 

The current regime has had four offseasons to replace him & has chosen not to each time, while many other coaches have fallen by the wayside.

 

Any individual fan's opinion (or even the collective opinion of all fans) is still less relevant than what his employers think of his job performance.

 

That his employers continually choose to bring him back leads me to believe they find his performance acceptable or better, so not bad.

[PeaveyFury]

 

But your opinion could be very wrong, since it's based on basically nothing other than your own observations of just him and nothing else, as you've clearly said. It's fine if you have an opinion. Where your opinion is getting "hammered on": is because actual facts suggest it's wrong, and you've stated that you don't care. That's generally not the best way to be on the correct side of arguing a point...

 

actual facts?

 

ok then...

 

Yep, like the fact that the Brewers are solidly average in runners thrown out and outs on the bases, which is how I'd think you'd measure a 3B coach's performance.