Eastern Conference Finals: Milwaukee Bucks vs Toronto Raptors

[OnTheBlack]

Come on man, Horst was a joke hire and now that he's not puking on himself he's getting labelled a genius. He's simply held his own. He's no genius. Giving up a 1st to get zero short term cap relief in going from Delly and Henson to Hill is nothing special. Mirotic for a million 2nds isn't either. This is an average GM doing average things. Not a dumb GM signing Plumlee for 12/5.

 

Every informed buck fan has been begging our GM to sign guys like PatC and Lopez on cheap filler deals. We've watched Plums Snell Delly etc deals and that's and F- grade. Being a C looks much better than an F- but it doesn't make you a genius.

 

The genius GM in on the Brewers, not the Bucks.

 

 

Yeah, actually they DID clearly get "short term" cap relief. They got 20 million in cap relief as that's how much they'll save this coming off-season(actually 19 million, but close enough).

 

And yes, getting Mirotic for Thon and some 2nd round picks was also an GREAT trade. To argue otherwise is absurd. Mirotic has had a bad series for us, but they added a 16/8 guy who performed better than that last year in the post-season for what? 2nd round picks which you can buy from other teams and Thon Maker. Yeah, that's no big deal.

 

Oh, and clearing ~20 million in cap space for next year and adding George Hill while giving up a late 1st round pick...yeah, that's a "C" grade as well!

 

And Bucks fans have been begging for Pat C and Lopez for years??? I guess I missed those threads, but either way, he actually signed them.

 

He also added Bledsoe, a 1st team NBA Defender and then signed him to a team friendly deal, passed on signing Jabari Parker and was reportedly a big part of the Bucks decision to draft Brogdon.

 

To say Horst hasn't been a brilliant GM since he's taken the job given the salary cap restraints is absolutely ludicrous.

 

I'm curious what exactly Horst could have done that he hasn't that would make you happy? Really, the Henson/Delly/1st for Hill trade might have been one of thee best in the NBA this year and it may be the difference between being able to keep Brogdon or being forced to let him leave while also adding a veteran PG who has been a big factor in these playoffs.

 

The guy stabilized the entire franchise when we were at a crossroads and were looking foolish. Oh yeah, and he hired Bud to coach the team.

 

 

 

There's a reason that Horst is one of the favorites to win Executive of the year along with Ujiri and it sure isn't because he's been a "C" General Manager rather than a D-. But honestly, if you don't think dumping Henson and Delly's contracts while only having to give up a 1st AND getting back George Hill, a move that, again, got you a very good veteran PG and clears nearly 20 million off your books this off-season is a great move, this whole post was likely for nothing. That was one of the best moves in the NBA this past year alone.

[OnTheBlack]

The difference moving forward isn't going to be us. It's going to be a super team from New York, or Boston, etc. that could end up rivaling the LeBron/Wade Heat or the LeBron Cavs and just make it more of a nightmare to get out of the East than it already is. This year was our shot.

 

 

The difference moving forward IMO will be us, namely Giannis. But even under your assumption, Kyrie and LeBron going to NYN is not the same as LeBron and Wade in Miami. Durant's going to be 30 years old. Those three(you're forgetting Bosh who was an All-NBA player before joining) made a deeper and better team.

 

 

That's not to mention that's just complete conjecture that those two are going to both go to the same team, a franchise that has been absolute garbage and will have almost no depth. Nobody knows what Durant or Kyrie are going to do.

 

I'd be more worried that Boston adds AD and thins out some of it's "assets" in order to create an actual roster, but even if that happens, it's not supposed to be easy to win an NBA championship.

 

 

I guess it comes down to this, do you believe Giannis is going to be the best player in the NBA in the coming years or not. If you don't, I get being scared. If you believe he's going to improve as I do and you have confidence in Horst AND our coaches, I don't get why you'd be less confident in this teams future?

[OnTheBlack]

Isn't Hill on a 18/1 next year?

 

Yes. So that clears a lot of cap room to retain their young core. It'd be nice to be able to bring him back, perhaps on a MLE, but I don't have any idea how that's going to play out.

 

Even in the highly unlikely scenario that CHL wants, the Bucks to pick up Hill's option and pay him 19 million next year, it was still a great trade to get rid of Henson and Delly in favor of Hill.

 

Most likely though, that money will be spent on Brogdon, Middleton, Mirotic and then we'll have to figure out what to do with the MLE, and how to fill in the rest of the roster.

 

I'd imagine we'd be looking for more from Sterling Brown, DDV, DJ Wilson, all of whom are promising young players.

 

But just for the sake of repeating myself, we have the Greek Freak and he's improving.

 

 

 

Man....we haven't even lost this series and we have a 24 year old MEGA-star, our future is somehow diminished? I realize that's not what you said, but that's what I'm getting from others on here.

 

 

And don't let recency bias fool you, Mirotic played poorly and he might have cost himself so money, but he's a VERY good player. Being able to keep our core 5-6 players together with some young role players and then letting Horst fill out the rotation looks like a pretty good recipe to me.

[OnTheBlack]

Just not sure how a 24-year old can always be so tired.

 

 

Well, he's doing everything and playing all out on both ends of the court. But I don't believe gassed. Bud just likes to keep guys fresh. And that was a mistake to take him out when Gasol got that big rebound.

[bucks2281]

Not worried about the competition in the East for the next few years. Kawhi will be in LA and Toronto will regress. Boston has probably plateaued. If Kyrie walks, who is Boston trading for AD? Tatum?

[adambr2]

The difference moving forward isn't going to be us. It's going to be a super team from New York, or Boston, etc. that could end up rivaling the LeBron/Wade Heat or the LeBron Cavs and just make it more of a nightmare to get out of the East than it already is. This year was our shot.

 

 

The difference moving forward IMO will be us, namely Giannis. But even under your assumption, Kyrie and LeBron going to NYN is not the same as LeBron and Wade in Miami. Durant's going to be 30 years old. Those three(you're forgetting Bosh who was an All-NBA player before joining) made a deeper and better team.

 

 

That's not to mention that's just complete conjecture that those two are going to both go to the same team, a franchise that has been absolute garbage and will have almost no depth. Nobody knows what Durant or Kyrie are going to do.

 

I'd be more worried that Boston adds AD and thins out some of it's "assets" in order to create an actual roster, but even if that happens, it's not supposed to be easy to win an NBA championship.

 

 

I guess it comes down to this, do you believe Giannis is going to be the best player in the NBA in the coming years or not. If you don't, I get being scared. If you believe he's going to improve as I do and you have confidence in Horst AND our coaches, I don't get why you'd be less confident in this teams future?

 

I love Giannis. And he's fantastic. But no, in terms of being able to elevate his game to a different level this time of year and put a team on his back, he's no LeBron, or even a Curry. At least not yet. He's another superstar, a Westbrook, a George, a Lillard. Not THE superstar.

 

I don't know what will happen with Kawhi, or AD, or whoever. But it's incredibly difficult to get back to this stage. Things happen, injuries happen, and we all know, there will be turnover. Middleton, Lopez, Hill, Mirotic, Brogdon...these guys are not all going to be back, and we simply wont be able to replace them in the draft or free agency.

 

Last time we were at this stage it took 18 years to get back. You just never know.

 

Part of it is I'm getting a little jaded. Between the Packers, Brewers and Bucks, if the Bucks don't come back we'll be 0 for our last 6 and 1 for our last 9 in conference championships. It's incredibly frustrating.

[TJseven7]

18.34 mil opened for this offseason. Expirings which bad teams take on readily for 1sts. Nothing new. Plenty of teams would have taken those 2 for a 1st this offseason as well. And it would be 7mil if he simply didn't sign Snell when we had Brog and Brown who are the same guy.

 

The composite of that trade is 7 mil of cap space and a Hill rental for a 1st. He gutted their mistakes over his own, because his own is tied up longer. Honestly, if Snell is any indication being hamstrung cap wise might have HELPED HIM.

 

Mirotic is a 16/8 playing heavy minutes for bad teams. There wasn't a market for him or a handful of 2nds wouldn't have done it. He found a team in a something is better than nothing situation.

 

Look around, people wanted Dedmon cheap before he was in SA. That's how long that's been going on.

 

We didn't have a D-, we had an F- who happened upon a unicorn. Exec of the year, is because the team was good. The team wasn't bad before, Kidd was. Steve Keim of the Arizona Cardinals did the logical simple things when he got Arians and got exec of the year and then fell off a cliff for 3 years because, simply put, he is average. Horst is too. Riding the coat tails of a superstar and hiring a coach due to something other than blatant nepotism doesn't make you a great GM. It makes you a sane one.

 

Any half way decent fantasy basketball manager would have done the same stuff. Genius is Ainge who suckered teams out of elite assets. Horst hasn't screwed up. Horst has used all but 2 picks in the next 4 years to get there. Wake me when he buys an early 2nd instead of selling them. Horst has 2 college matured 1sts who are borderline 2nd stringers and 2 picks in the next 4 years. That's no genius. I get the bar has been set REALLY low in MKE for years. He's competent. They were really bad.

 

Plums, Henson, Delly, Telly, Thon over Sabonis, DJ over Collins/Allen, Vaughn over Portis, the MCW debacle, the Vasquez trade that still haunts us. BAD! Does not make competent a genius.

[OnTheBlack]

18.34 mil opened for this offseason. Expirings which bad teams take on readily for 1sts. Nothing new. Plenty of teams would have taken those 2 for a 1st this offseason as well. And it would be 7mil if he simply didn't sign Snell when we had Brog and Brown who are the same guy.

 

The composite of that trade is 7 mil of cap space and a Hill rental for a 1st. He gutted their mistakes over his own, because his own is tied up longer. Honestly, if Snell is any indication being hamstrung cap wise might have HELPED HIM.

 

Mirotic is a 16/8 playing heavy minutes for bad teams. There wasn't a market for him or a handful of 2nds wouldn't have done it. He found a team in a something is better than nothing situation.

 

Look around, people wanted Dedmon cheap before he was in SA. That's how long that's been going on.

 

We didn't have a D-, we had an F- who happened upon a unicorn. Exec of the year, is because the team was good. The team wasn't bad before, Kidd was. Steve Keim of the Arizona Cardinals did the logical simple things when he got Arians and got exec of the year and then fell off a cliff for 3 years because, simply put, he is average. Horst is too. Riding the coat tails of a superstar and hiring a coach due to something other than blatant nepotism doesn't make you a great GM. It makes you a sane one.

 

Any half way decent fantasy basketball manager would have done the same stuff. Genius is Ainge who suckered teams out of elite assets. Horst hasn't screwed up. Horst has used all but 2 picks in the next 4 years to get there. Wake me when he buys an early 2nd instead of selling them. Horst has 2 college matured 1sts who are borderline 2nd stringers and 2 picks in the next 4 years. That's no genius. I get the bar has been set REALLY low in MKE for years. He's competent. They were really bad.

 

Plums, Henson, Delly, Telly, Thon over Sabonis, DJ over Collins/Allen, Vaughn over Portis, the MCW debacle, the Vasquez trade that still haunts us. BAD! Does not make competent a genius.

 

 

 

I really don't think you understand this trade or how the NBA CBA Works.

 

18.34 mil opened for this offseason. Expirings which bad teams take on readily for 1sts. Nothing new. Plenty of teams would have taken those 2 for a 1st this offseason as well. And it would be 7mil if he simply didn't sign Snell when we had Brog and Brown who are the same guy.

 

First of all, they weren't expiring contracts. So no, plenty of teams would NOT have taken a late 1st round pick to take on 20 million dollars. But it's even more important to US to shed that 20 million dollars.

 

But since they weren't expiring contracts, you're starting off not understanding why that trade was impressive. We traded two players we had no use for and in doing so we shaved ~20 million off our salary cap for the next two years. Most importantly, the year in which we had 4 out of our 5 starters due to be FA's. Many people looked at both as being nearly untradable. You seem to believe somehow this was a trade that "many teams" would have done for a late 1st round pick. It's almost laughable. I guess it should be easy then to trade Snell since he's a better player and better fit for this team than either Henson or Delladova...in which case, you can't really use him as a bad signing for that reason either. Because if you mistakenly believe that teams are lining up to take two bad contracts off a teams hands for a late 1st round pick while giving back a proven, veteran PG to fill that teams biggest need, then trading Snell should be a breeze, right? So how bad of a contract can he be?

 

Finally, Snell has turned out to be a guy who's gotten buried on our bench, but when he took over after Middleton went out, he put up a effective FG pct of .588, played outstanding perimeter defense and shot over 40 pct from 3. Signing him at the time seemed like an obvious move. Without regular playing time, his effectiveness has suffered and now it's likely he's the next "expiring" contract they'll trade away(since I guess expiring contracts mean they have multiple years left on them by your definition).

Mirotic is a 16/8 playing heavy minutes for bad teams. There wasn't a market for him or a handful of 2nds wouldn't have done it. He found a team in a something is better than nothing situation.

 

Again, you seem to have no clue what you're talking about. In 3 of the 4 years he's played, his teams have made it at least to the second round of the playoffs and he has never averaged more than 30 minutes a game. Please explain how that translates to "heavy minutes for bad teams?" That's just asinine.

 

Second, last year his team lost in the second round to Golden State in the playoffs, a series in which he averaged nearly 16/10 and shot 43 pct from 3. Yup, just putting up big numbers on bad teams

 

 

But you keep moving the goal posts. If the Bucks traded for him, that means that no other teams must have been interested, so that's not an impressive addition? What a laughable position to take.

 

He's played in the post-season the last 3 years in the playoffs and there was quite a bit of debate about which was the best trade deadline acquisition, Mirotic, Gasol or Harris with many people favoring Mirotic.

 

You're not even arguing facts and logic anymore, you're just dug into a position and you're going to make things up to argue otherwise.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2019/2/7/18215686/nikola-mirotic-trade-bucks-pelicans-stanley-johnson

 

This was literally the very first article that came up, but it's not hard to find about 25 others who of a similar ilk who believed that the Bucks stole Mirotic.

 

Look around, people wanted Dedmon cheap before he was in SA. That's how long that's been going on.

 

 

Oh...great. And? So because at some point at some time in the past people wanted the Bucks to sign Dedmon, that diminishes his acquisitions of Lopez, Connaughton and Hill in season?

 

This is almost like saying, "look around, people wanted the Brewers to trade for young, talented players for years, so the Yelich trade isn't a great trade, it's just a sane one."

 

I'd ask you explain that logic, but after claiming anyone could have had Mirotic because we got him for 2nd round picks(not actually true, we got him in a 3 way trade in which we gave up a couple players as well as multiple 2nd round picks, but the details don't seem to matter much here).

 

Steve Keim of the Arizona Cardinals did the logical simple things when he got Arians and got exec of the year and then fell off a cliff for 3 years because, simply put, he is average.

 

Yeah, I don't know what he has to do with this discussion at all, but he drafted a all pro player, he upgraded the QB position from John Skelton to Carson Palmer, and turned the team around from 5-11 to 10-6 the following year(As well as hiring a good coach).

 

But since the NBA and the NFL are ENTIRELY different sports and the jobs are VASTLY-VASTLY different as there's so much less room to navigate in the NBA than the NFL, this appears to be another vague argument that misses the mark yet again. You're effectively saying, "because 6 years ago a GM for an NFL team that went 5-11 to 10-6 almost directly as a result of the impact players he brought in won NFL Executive of the year for the first of two times(he'd win it again later) that means Jon Horst isn't that good because he hired his coach based on something other than him being his friend or relative.

 

Plums, Henson, Delly, Telly, Thon over Sabonis, DJ over Collins/Allen, Vaughn over Portis, the MCW debacle, the Vasquez trade that still haunts us. BAD!

 

You sure you don't want to throw in a "SAD," or covefe in there just to go all in on the verbiage? I have got zero clue what these moves have to do with Horst other than he still put together a team that is in the ECF's and still playing.

 

I do think it's absurd how you go back and look at the draft, pick a bad selection and then look at guys picked later and lament how awful a decision it was, yet you also refuse to credit the previous GM with drafting a young superstar like Giannis at 15, but since former GM's or GM's from other sports have absolutely nothing to do with Jon Horst OTHER than to point out he's gotten the Bucks back on track after having to revamp the roster on the fly and doing so by building a great roster to surround Giannis.

 

I guess you did mention DJ Wilson, but it's so hard trying to keep track of your logic, I'm not even sure I want to pull on this thread...but I guess I'll give it a little tug. So Mirotic, a guy who's been productive on 3 teams in 4 years who've made it to at least the 2nd round of the post-season isn't a good player, he's just a guy who puts up numbers on bad teams playing heavy minutes. But the two guys you've already anointed as being better than DJ Wilson....tell me, did either go to a "good team?" Or did they both go to teams who gave them "heavy minutes" right off the bat and have only managed to exceed 29 wins one time in the 4 combined years? See where your argument losses consistency?

 

 

I think maybe you should take a little time to familiarize yourself with the actual details of the moves the Bucks made so you can have a better understanding of what Horst has done to clean up our cap situation while also helping this team get within two games(Which they STILL ARE) of the NBA Finals and you don't confuse expiring contracts for contracts with multiple years on them. And just one more note on that. An expiring contract is actually considered an ASSET.

 

https://behindthebuckpass.com/2019/05/05/milwaukee-bucks-daily-general-manager-jon-horst-role-current-success/

So just quickly going back to that Delledova-Henson/1st round pick for Hill trade, we traded two players with negative value(Henson was bought out and didn't play again this season despite the fact that they owed him over 11 million this year and 10.5 next year) and Delledova was a backup who played part time on a terrible team) for a guy with positive value(George Hill) who both helped us during the season as our top backup PG and who will help us even more as he clears substantial payroll in order for us to pay our good young players.

 

And for the privilege of saving their division rivals 20 million dollars along with giving them back a player who had significant value to us, it cost us a late 1st round draft pick in the future.

 

Please show me all the other trades that are similar to that?

[HiAndTight]

Just getting back from the Bucks game after commiserating with some fans with a couple of adult beverages after the game.

 

Walking out of the arena, it reminded me of 2008 when the Brewers were choking away their playoff chances down the stretch, or even more the Favre pick vs the Giants in the NFCCG.

 

The stadium was ready to go absolutely nuts on several occasions just waiting for SOMEONE to hit an open 3 when we still had the lead to try and put the Raptors away for good. Didn't happen.

 

 

 

 

That said, kinda surprised to come back here and find so many people so down on the Bucks chances. Not for this series as this one obviously is not looking good, but moving forward. This team reminds me of the Packers in the 90's. They're trying to get there all at once without going through the struggles.

 

Even more surprised to hear how little we think of Jon Horst now, but that's something I have little interest getting involved in.

 

 

I'll just say this. The Bucks play in the East, they have a guy who's probably going to be the best player in the world in the next year or two(Durant is 31 I think, LeBron at least 5 years older, Giannis is just entering his prime years at 24) and I believe we've got a good supporting cast around him. He's only going to get better. And the Knicks...isn't it premature to worry about the Knicks before KD coems or the Celtics before AD comes?

 

This is just all wild speculation at this point. And even if both happen, they still have the Greek Freak! Giannis started knocking down that jumper tonight, but the Raptors little guy who hasn't done anything for them all post-season decided he was going to have a career night.

 

 

This team WILL be back. I don't like absolutes, but I'm guaranteeing it right now. Giannis isn't going to sit around and watch his team platau? No, this dude is going to do what he's been doing. Obsessively, complusively, manically go back to the Gym and work on the area's of his game that the other team doesn't respect right now, his jumper, hi s3 point shot and then his flaws, his FT shooting and his turnovers ore poor decision making in the restricted area.

 

Remember, Kawhi will most likely be gone next year, Kyrie will most likely be gone next year. KD and Kyrie may team up, but even if that's a successful combo, they seldom do well enough to beat a elite team like the Bucks in yr one. I think we underestimated the Raptors. I remember saying that I'd hoped the Sixers would win the series because I thought they would be easier to beat because they had no bench and Embid looked awfully out of shape and was for some reason soiling himself(i don't know if he was literally or not, but he said he was literally doing so).

 

This Raptors team has multiple Defensive players of the YEAR on it's team. Gasol, Ibaka and Kawhi(I believe Ibaka was a DPOY, if not I know he was consistently in the top 3-4 in voting).

 

Kawhi is more than just a DPOY. He's a friggin boa constrictor. It's amazing to see him up close. His arms seemingly hang down around his ankles, he just looks SO hard to move when Giannis comes into the lane and tries to back him down at all and he doesn't even look like he had to jump, he almost looks like Giannis with that long arse arm going up there to try and block a shot or reach out and get in to the passing lanes.

 

 

I know this, Giannis isn't a punk. This Bucks team is full of high character guys. I do NOT agree with CHL that George Hill is our second most important player, but I do believe he's a winner and a damn good player. I don't think we have a team that's gonna fold. At least not from an effort standpoint.

 

And after listening to Giannis talking after the game....well, he said it, he's pissed. He said, "we ARE coming back to Milwaukee."

 

 

This will be the ultimate test for this young, upstart Bucks team. But even if they should fall short, this has been the most fun I've had since I watched the Bucks Big3 play, and that team is nothing like this team. Maybe it Tim Thomas was a freak of nature who had the footwork of a ballerina and who could take a couple dribbles and then euro step his way to the basket from half court, but he wasn't. We had a bunch of shooters.

 

 

Bledsoe came out tonight and looked like maybe he got his confidence back a bit, Giannis needs to have a plan when he attacks and he can't just go in there out of control.

 

 

Which leads me to my second guarantee. I won't guarantee that we win game 6, but I damn sure guarantee Fred VanVleet doesn't hit 8 3's or whatever the heck it was that little hobbit had and I guarantee this team plays hard. Just too many character guys on this team.

 

 

Giannis

Hill(listed 2nd because of his playoff experiance)

Brogdon(his nickname seems really appropriate)

Middleton

Ersan

Bledsoe

Lopez

 

These guys have too much pride to fold up after a tough loss. They're gonna come out swinging like Tyson in the 80's. They may miss, but they're gonna connect. That team that won games 1 and 2 and then lost game 3 in OT wasn't some fluke. The team that won 60 games wasn't a fluke. The team that blew the doors off a MORE taletented Boston team(not better, but more individiual talent) wasn't a fluke.

 

They're gonna play hard and I know that the easiest thing in the world right now is to get down on the team, the organization and start feeling sorry, but c'mon guys....we've got the Greek Freek. We're able to watch a guy that people will be talking about in 40 years play in his prime, at the start of his ascension to BB royalty.

 

 

Anyway, if the Raptors can come back from down 2-0 to go ahead 3-2, and VanVleet can make 8 3's, the Bucks can sure as hell come back in game 6 and who knows, maybe it'll be Mirotic, maybe Lopez, maybe Bledsoe will have gained some momentum. I don't know and I don't care. I want to watch this team play one more time, even if it's walking off in Milwaukee as the loser it's a helluva lot better that just resinging myself to the fate that the Bucks are not only done for this year, but they're probably done with their shot to compete. Or hell, they've missed their window and Giannis, the guy who care most about being great and being a winner, he is is gonna walk away after this year!

 

(I realize nobody said that, but the general mood in here seems pretty damn bleak...and understandably so, but suck it up and root for this team in game 6. We'll have the whole off-season to argue about GM's and commiserate.

[HiAndTight]

The difference moving forward isn't going to be us. It's going to be a super team from New York, or Boston, etc. that could end up rivaling the LeBron/Wade Heat or the LeBron Cavs and just make it more of a nightmare to get out of the East than it already is. This year was our shot.

 

 

The difference moving forward IMO will be us, namely Giannis. But even under your assumption, Kyrie and LeBron going to NYN is not the same as LeBron and Wade in Miami. Durant's going to be 30 years old. Those three(you're forgetting Bosh who was an All-NBA player before joining) made a deeper and better team.

 

 

That's not to mention that's just complete conjecture that those two are going to both go to the same team, a franchise that has been absolute garbage and will have almost no depth. Nobody knows what Durant or Kyrie are going to do.

 

I'd be more worried that Boston adds AD and thins out some of it's "assets" in order to create an actual roster, but even if that happens, it's not supposed to be easy to win an NBA championship.

 

 

I guess it comes down to this, do you believe Giannis is going to be the best player in the NBA in the coming years or not. If you don't, I get being scared. If you believe he's going to improve as I do and you have confidence in Horst AND our coaches, I don't get why you'd be less confident in this teams future?

 

I love Giannis. And he's fantastic. But no, in terms of being able to elevate his game to a different level this time of year and put a team on his back, he's no LeBron, or even a Curry. At least not yet. He's another superstar, a Westbrook, a George, a Lillard. Not THE superstar.

 

I don't know what will happen with Kawhi, or AD, or whoever. But it's incredibly difficult to get back to this stage. Things happen, injuries happen, and we all know, there will be turnover. Middleton, Lopez, Hill, Mirotic, Brogdon...these guys are not all going to be back, and we simply wont be able to replace them in the draft or free agency.

 

Last time we were at this stage it took 18 years to get back. You just never know.

 

Part of it is I'm getting a little jaded. Between the Packers, Brewers and Bucks, if the Bucks don't come back we'll be 0 for our last 6 and 1 for our last 9 in conference championships. It's incredibly frustrating.

 

 

Or Durant. Just because Golden State's so deep, don't forget about their best player. No, he's not that type of offensive force yet. He doesn't have a well enough rounded game just yet. But he's gonna get there.

 

LeBron wasn't LeBron until he started hitting the jumper more. Even Jordan had to add a Jumper to his game(though he was different with the way he could handle the ball, he had some absolutely terrible post-season games shooting 9 for 37).

 

I get the jaded thing. But really, did you think the Brewers were the best team? Did you ever believe in your life the Buck were the best team? This Bucks team is different. They're like the Packers(who've also choked, but they've also won one). They have the best player at the most important spot.

 

Keep the faith brother!

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm not pessimistic about the future, just don't think it's a given the Bucks will be here for six years like some teams. And it's also hard to feel good when a 60-win team has a 2-0 lead and goes down in six. That should never happen. Especially being 2OT away from 3-0. The way they lost in cathartic fashion, then a lay down game and choking a 4th quarter away at home, smells of a team that isn't mentally tough. They should have won this series. It's not like they lost to LeBron's last crusade or something. They should have beaten this team.

[coolhandluke121]

Day after perspective: this is pretty normal for a team's first playoff run. I wanted to believe they were so good that they could bypass a few stages of development, but they've run up against a team that's roughly their equal but is more ready for the pressure. And I normally don't like to talk too much about "clutch" and "pressure", but it does seem to be affecting the Bucks. They need time to be desensitized to the high stakes. Look at how many years it took Lowry.

 

A big concern is keeping the team together. Normally a young core grows together and you can keep them as restricted free agents, but this team has a lot of guys to pay. It's easy to give two or three perennial all-stars a max contract and fill out the roster around them. It's harder when you have so many guys worth more than the MLE but less than the max though.

[homer]

Winning the series now would be pretty epic.

[HiAndTight]

Day after perspective: this is pretty normal for a team's first playoff run. I wanted to believe they were so good that they could bypass a few stages of development, but they've run up against a team that's roughly their equal but is more ready for the pressure. And I normally don't like to talk too much about "clutch" and "pressure", but it does seem to be affecting the Bucks. They need time to be desensitized to the high stakes. Look at how many years it took Lowry.

 

A big concern is keeping the team together. Normally a young core grows together and you can keep them as restricted free agents, but this team has a lot of guys to pay. It's easy to give two or three perennial all-stars a max contract and fill out the roster around them. It's harder when you have so many guys worth more than the MLE but less than the max though.

 

 

That's exactly it. The Bucks run isn't over. This isn't 2001 where we'll trade Giannis for another PG that does not want to come here and is well past his prime, trade away our 2nd best player and then just watch our coach walk away.

 

It definitely is a problem the players we have around Giannis, but when you've got a talent like Giannis, I don't think you need another Max type player. He's going to improve, he's going to get better. Does anyone want to bet against a pissed off Giannis coming back next year as the exact same player? He hasn't done it yet in his career.

 

And Bledsoe showed us something last night. In a huge game, he performed well. Giannis, Middleton, even if you have to pay him the max, Brogdon and I agree with you on Mirotic. We can just agree to disagree on Hill as I think the Bucks would have to move on from one of the two younger more important players for the next several years, not just next year. But if the Bucks owners want to spend the money to bring Hill back and they don't lose Brogdon or Middleton, I could live with that.

 

I don't think this is a one and done situation. Not in the NBA and not with a guy who if he isn't the best player in the world right now...and I'd rank him just a tier below the top 3 now(LeBron, KD and Kawhi) just for the simple reason that the offense runs through him and his shot isn't quite there yet. But it's improving.

 

 

But touching on your point about the experience, even more, Kawhi, Finals MVP, played in SA where they were consistently in the post-season making runs. Ibaka, his years in OKC where they made deep runs and then Toronto when the only team they couldn't get past was LeBron's team. Gasol, best player arguably on a team that played in the conference finals. Lowry has been there multiple times. Even guys like Green have a long history of playing playoff basketball.

 

The Bucks? Hill has a ton of experience. Mirotic has quite a bit, but never really on a team that was expected to win. Beyond that, there's very little.

 

That said, we're definitely not done in this series. This is a resilient team. There's no way VanVleet goes off again like he did last game and there's no way Middleton doesn't shoot the ball better(though he had a really nice game overall and played smart basketball, he's too important to the way we play, we need him to score).

 

We win ONE game in Toronto and now Toronto is back in the hot seat having to come back to Milwaukee.

 

 

As for Hill, let's say for argument's sake, the Bucks do decline his option. Is there any reason they can't offer him the MLE? It would take away a huge weapon in Lopez, not being able to offer him that and I don't think we can sign him to a regular contract as I don't think we own his Bird rights, but with Ersan, hopefully Mirotic, Giannis, Wilson and then possibly a guy like Gafford of Fernando in the draft, a guy who won't be able to stretch the floor like Brook, but guys who have at least the potential to develop into a poor man Clint Capella type or maybe a Looney type player and could at least provide some rim protection and rebounding next year, might they be better off going with that moving forward? At least you'd avoid the scenario we saw several times last night when Lopez switches on Leonard at the top of the key and Kawhi just has him on a string before pulling up for an easy 3.

 

Of we just go without a big man and wait to see who becomes available during the season with buyouts even.

 

 

And in the scenario that doesn't work out....do you think a guy like Rondo would be a good guy to target?

 

I know this is hypothetical because you believe they'll pick up Hill's option, but on the off chance that they don't, what would you look for? I think a big man is more likely to fill a role in the draft than any PG we'd get. Maybe we try to buy a teams 2nd rounder if they like a PG they can develop.

[HiAndTight]

I'm not pessimistic about the future, just don't think it's a given the Bucks will be here for six years like some teams. And it's also hard to feel good when a 60-win team has a 2-0 lead and goes down in six. That should never happen. Especially being 2OT away from 3-0. The way they lost in cathartic fashion, then a lay down game and choking a 4th quarter away at home, smells of a team that isn't mentally tough. They should have won this series. It's not like they lost to LeBron's last crusade or something. They should have beaten this team.

 

 

I think it'd have been more cathartic if they hadn't gotten up 2-0 in the first place. I think if they lost a tough game 1, then lost the OT game, and last nights game people would be more inclined to look at it as though they just ran into a better team and they didn't have the experiance.

 

Going up 2-0 and then losing 3 straight, two of which you could have won if you'd knocked down a few shots was the least cathartic way for them to lose in my eyes.

 

 

As for them being there for the next 6 years, I believe they will. Short of an injury to Giannis-God forbid-I think they'll be a team that's in the 50's in wins every year and they should compete for the top seed. Certainly through his 20's.

 

That's assuming he stays here, but he's given every indication he's going to stick around, so no reason to worry about that in my mind.

 

I do think they found a couple of really nice, solid players in Brown and Wilson who will be good bench players in the future. I'd hope DDV would as well, but I haven't seen it yet.

 

And despite others reservations about Horst, he already showed this year he was able to pull a couple rabbits from a hat when he dumped Henson and Delly for just a 1st and then got Hill back to match the salaries and also provide a huge boost in the post-season especially when he was able to come in for Bled when he was struggling. He's been able to calm us down all post-season. Without trying to start an argument, I don't believe we'll be much different next year with or without him. But come playoff time, you need some veteran leadership. That's why I'm wondering aloud if there's some way we could add Rondo. He's not a guy who's going to get a big contract and there aren't many teams looking for a player his age and on the downside of his career, but he's such a smart player, he's improved as a shooter and he's a great passer. His character concerns seem to be subsiding as he gets older.

 

There are a lot of good PG's who are FA's this year. Rondo, Beverly, Rubio. I'd really like to see us get someone who's better at running the pick and roll, throw that wrinkle into the equation much more next year to free Giannis up a bit.

 

 

I know watching the Houston series I just felt bad for Chris Paul. He's totally wasted on that team. There's almost zero chance he comes here unless the Bucks decide to sign and trade Middleton and Brogdon to Houston and take on a 35 year old PG with an injury history, but man, there's not a worse situation for him in the entire NBA than playing with Houston whereas having him, even at this diminished stage in his career in Milwaukee would be such a huge boost, I think you'd be able to get away with losing Midds and Brogdon.

 

Again, totally, 99.9999 pct unrealistic and so far fetched, but just reading these reports about him not liking how the offense is run in Houston and really just since watching that series I've thought it was almost sad to watch a all time great PG finish out his career being totally mis-used with Harden handling the ball the majority of the time and his skill set going to waste by in large.

 

 

Now I've reached the point of rambling, so I'll stop. Not sure those couple hours of sleep were enough for me to completely get those adult drinks out of my system.

[tmwiese55]

I would just say to folks trying to rip or cut down Giannis here to keep it in perspective. He's being guarded by 3 guys. You can't just "want it" enough to score through 3 guys. The issue is they seemed to have abandoned any flow and motion in their offense and are relying to much on him driving straight at 3 guys waiting for him. Need other ways to get going with ball screens, starting him low, have others start with the ball, him kick it before he gets off balance so he can get zip on the pass, etc.

 

IF you have this advantage of a guy being guarded by 3 you have to be able to get countless wide open shots off it. Yet somehow they're not, Mid only got up two 3 balls last night, how is that possible.

[Pugger]

Toronto isn't providing a "blueprint." Literally anyone who follows basketball knows that right now you force Giannis outside. It's a lot harder to do than it sounds. The roster was literally built for that purpose, to surround him with shooters so that even if you did it, they would still beat you shooting threes.

 

We've consistently not hit shots this series, putting more pressure on him than usual. If it was as simple as building a Giannis wall then Giannis would suck because he's pretty blah from the perimeter.

 

However, I agree with the rest. The complexion of the league will be way different. I doubt 60 wins happens again, but it doesn't necessarily have to. I'm one that thinks it's really hard to get back to where they are, so I'm pretty devasted. But one silver living if you can call it that, is that if they do get back here it's not likely GSW is the same juggernaut they are now. Should be a little better distribution across the league

 

60 wins might not happen again but we do have a generational talent and a great HC and these 2 factors can tilt the scales in your favor more in the NBA than in other sports. What team in our division will be a threat to us in 2020? We might not get home court advantage thru out next year but that isn't bothering Toronto this year either.

[HiAndTight]

I would just say to folks trying to rip or cut down Giannis here to keep it in perspective. He's being guarded by 3 guys. You can't just "want it" enough to score through 3 guys. The issue is they seemed to have abandoned any flow and motion in their offense and are relying to much on him driving straight at 3 guys waiting for him. Need other ways to get going with ball screens, starting him low, have others start with the ball, him kick it before he gets off balance so he can get zip on the pass, etc.

 

IF you have this advantage of a guy being guarded by 3 you have to be able to get countless wide open shots off it. Yet somehow they're not, Mid only got up two 3 balls last night, how is that possible.

 

 

Kawhi was on him most of the night and was amazing. Middleton to his credit didn't force bad shots, he facilitated and did a very good job doing so IMO.

[coolhandluke121]

Also, this isn't actually over despite how it looks. In 2001 against the Hornets, the situation was eerily similar. The Bucks were a little better in the regular season, but the Hornets were better constructed for the playoffs. Ray and Glenn were in the 2nd round for the first time, and so was most of the supporting cast besides Cassell. The Bucks went up 2-0, but lost the next 3 and looked even worse than the final scores indicated. It was ugly. They shot around 40% combined in those 3 losses. Mashburn was killing Robinson. Baron Davis was killing Cassell. Ray was 20-53 from the field. They lost game 5 at home and we heard all the same stats we're hearing now about going down 3-2 and losing 80% of the time.

 

They fell behind by about 15 at times in the first half in game 6. It looked completely hopeless. I don't remember the largest deficit, but they were down 10 at the half. Then a funny thing happened. They finally started hitting shots, like we knew they were capable of all along. All the other analysis went out the window, because it came down to that.

 

Toronto is much better than the Hornets were, but these Bucks are also much than the 2001 team. In both cases, the teams are comparable enough that it's close to a toss-up who wins. Of course it's not a toss-up anymore, because the Raptors have a lead. But it's still a series, and if the Bucks have two good games shooting the ball, I bet they will win it.

[Pugger]

Isn't Hill on a 18/1 next year?

 

Yes. So that clears a lot of cap room to retain their young core. It'd be nice to be able to bring him back, perhaps on a MLE, but I don't have any idea how that's going to play out.

 

Even in the highly unlikely scenario that CHL wants, the Bucks to pick up Hill's option and pay him 19 million next year, it was still a great trade to get rid of Henson and Delly in favor of Hill.

 

Most likely though, that money will be spent on Brogdon, Middleton, Mirotic and then we'll have to figure out what to do with the MLE, and how to fill in the rest of the roster.

 

I'd imagine we'd be looking for more from Sterling Brown, DDV, DJ Wilson, all of whom are promising young players.

 

But just for the sake of repeating myself, we have the Greek Freak and he's improving.

 

 

 

Man....we haven't even lost this series and we have a 24 year old MEGA-star, our future is somehow diminished? I realize that's not what you said, but that's what I'm getting from others on here.

 

 

And don't let recency bias fool you, Mirotic played poorly and he might have cost himself so money, but he's a VERY good player. Being able to keep our core 5-6 players together with some young role players and then letting Horst fill out the rotation looks like a pretty good recipe to me.

 

Mirotic isn't the only player playing poorly in this series. If he was the only one we wouldn't be in this dire situation.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I would just say to folks trying to rip or cut down Giannis here to keep it in perspective. He's being guarded by 3 guys. You can't just "want it" enough to score through 3 guys. The issue is they seemed to have abandoned any flow and motion in their offense and are relying to much on him driving straight at 3 guys waiting for him. Need other ways to get going with ball screens, starting him low, have others start with the ball, him kick it before he gets off balance so he can get zip on the pass, etc.

 

IF you have this advantage of a guy being guarded by 3 you have to be able to get countless wide open shots off it. Yet somehow they're not, Mid only got up two 3 balls last night, how is that possible.

 

You aren't wrong, but there have been plenty of times where Giannis draws that and needs to pass but instead Bledsoes his way to the basket and either coughs up the ball or gets fouled and doesn't convert.

[adambr2]

The cruelest way this could end would be to somehow pull off Game 6 and come back home and lose Game 7.

[HiAndTight]

Also, this isn't actually over despite how it looks. In 2001 against the Hornets, the situation was eerily similar. The Bucks were a little better in the regular season, but the Hornets were better constructed for the playoffs. Ray and Glenn were in the 2nd round for the first time, and so was most of the supporting cast besides Cassell. The Bucks went up 2-0, but lost the next 3 and looked even worse than the final scores indicated. It was ugly. They shot around 40% combined in those 3 losses. Mashburn was killing Robinson. Baron Davis was killing Cassell. Ray was 20-53 from the field. They lost game 5 at home and we heard all the same stats we're hearing now about going down 3-2 and losing 80% of the time.

 

They fell behind by about 15 at times in the first half in game 6. It looked completely hopeless. I don't remember the largest deficit, but they were down 10 at the half. Then a funny thing happened. They finally started hitting shots, like we knew they were capable of all along. All the other analysis went out the window, because it came down to that.

 

Toronto is much better than the Hornets were, but these Bucks are also much than the 2001 team. In both cases, the teams are comparable enough that it's close to a toss-up who wins. Of course it's not a toss-up anymore, because the Raptors have a lead. But it's still a series, and if the Bucks have two good games shooting the ball, I bet they will win it.

 

 

No question. Let see Middleton step up and earn that Max contract! Not that he could earn it in two games, but we'd certainly feel better about giving it to him.

 

I don't really agree with Pina's reasons why the Bucks have lost, ie, giving up 3 pointers. They haven't really given up more this series than the rest of the series, but I do wonder if he's not right about maybe giving Wilson a little run out there when Ibaka comes in. I know he'd get abused on the block, but his quickness may be helpful.

 

Or hell, maybe Mirotic starts playing well. He's got a history of performing in the post-season and he's a sneaky good defender from what I've seen, not the David Lee-esque Matador that he's looked like at times.

 

In order for the Bucks to come back, I think the most important guy is Middleton and then we need to find another guy to hit some big shots. You can count on Hill and Brogdon in this series, but we need one of our bigs to start shooting better.

[coolhandluke121]

 

 

As for Hill, let's say for argument's sake, the Bucks do decline his option. Is there any reason they can't offer him the MLE? It would take away a huge weapon in Lopez,

 

The main reason is that it's earmarked for Lopez. You may not recall, but I actually proposed that as an alternative option that might be bearable for everyone when the argument got really heated. But I don't think many people consider Hill that much more important than Lopez, and my argument is still that they should pay the luxury tax through the nose for a year and keep all of them.

 

But a more important reason is that they can't count on having the full MLE, and Hill could easily get some other contender's full MLE. No reason to believe he would settle for the taxpayer MLE from the Bucks. This is the same guy who turned down a 4/$88m extension from the Jazz in an effort to extract every dollar possible. He didn't get the payday he was looking for in free agency, so I would bet against him accepting a bargain deal this time around. He hasn't earned that much. Never had a huge contract like Brooklyn gave Lopez, for example.

 

And even if they free up enough to guarantee the full MLE (Snell + Pat C + pick #30 to a team with cap space for their 2nd-round pick?), they would lose the full MLE as soon as Brogdon signs an offer sheet. There's a lot of moving parts and too much to juggle. They could end up with a lot of egg on their face. Every free agent has the ability to hold them hostage, intentionally or not. Hill is the only one who doesn't because it's a team option, and he's easily worth 1/$18m in a vacuum. It's only the Bucks' cap situation that makes people question whether he's worth it, but that should make them question one of two of the other guys more than they question Hill because he has been their 2nd-best player throughout the playoffs and was arguably 2nd or 3rd when he got more opportunities because of Brogdon's injury in the regular season as well.

 

If a huge tax bill is not an option, I would just pick up Hill's option, accept that you're only going to have the taxpayer MLE, offer it to Lopez, give it to some other big if he declines (I think a lot of serviceable centers would see what the Bucks did for Lopez and love the same opportunity), match offers for Brogdon, and just accept that you're going to lose a good player in free agency. You're losing a good player if you don't pick up Hill's option anyway. Just let whoever asks for too much walk. If Khris is asking for more than $30m a year, keep Niko. If Niko is asking for more than his current contract, keep Khris. Once one walks, you can offer the other one a little more. If both accept team-friendly deals, then keep both, but I'm not holding my breath.

[coolhandluke121]

 

 

Or hell, maybe Mirotic starts playing well. He's got a history of performing in the post-season and he's a sneaky good defender from what I've seen, not the David Lee-esque Matador that he's looked like at times.

 

 

It's the small ball that's killing him. No, he's definitely not this bad. It's a combination of being a tough match-up and him being used poorly. I'd match him up with Ibaka or Gasol once in a while. Both those guys are doing more damage shooting outside than in the paint anyway, and Mirotic is not lacking for toughness. It's quickness that's killing him.