Eastern Conference Finals: Milwaukee Bucks vs Toronto Raptors

[OnTheBlack]

Pop was the first guy I thought of. I don't think he would hesitate to tell somebody to get away from him. Gruber on Bud, lmao. Oh man do I wish that would happen.

 

 

I had a friend who worked for Gruber. She said going into it she would only stay there for 3 years. She made it just under 3. Apparently he comes off better on TV than in person. So that's saying something.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Gruber's kids went to my high school. They were obviously super well off, but nice kids. I don't doubt that Gruber is extremely intense professionally. When I was younger, David came to our basketball league quite a lot and was kind of "that Dad" on the sidelines. Both his kids played NCAA sports, his son did basketball at Brown and his daughter I think tennis at Madison. She won a couple state titles. You don't achieve what he has without a lot of drive; his commercials are goofy and a stereotype of personal injury lawyers, but he's immensely successful and the firm is very good for its clients. So it's not hard for me to believe he's super overbearing.

[homer]

The Bucks were only two games better than Toronto this year. The series was expected to be a dogfight. But I think people recalibrated after game 2 and thought the Bucks were just going to steamroll them.

[coolhandluke121]

The Bucks were only two games better than Toronto this year. The series was expected to be a dogfight. But I think people recalibrated after game 2 and thought the Bucks were just going to steamroll them.

 

Simple as that. Can't forget that Kawhi played about 60 games this year and Lowry played about 65. He also went through his worst slump in years, if not ever. Gasol was a quantity-for-quality trade to make them even better in the playoffs than the regular season. And Lowry seems to be over the playoff problems that have plagued him for years, whereas Bledsoe is not. Maybe Lowry just needed to go up against someone who has it even worse than him?

 

Milwaukee had some injuries and stuff too, but it didn't affect their regular season as much because of their depth. So the discrepancy between Toronto's talent and their regular season record is even greater than Milwaukee's.

 

I'm as guilty as anyone of getting fat and sassy after game 2. I had the Bucks in 7 going into it, and I constantly dismissed Boston and Philly as paper tigers in comparison to Toronto. Philly and Boston had some bigger names, but some very critical flaws. Toronto is extremely balanced, experienced, and well-rounded. But then I was sold on Toronto's weak bench, and here we are. Damn.

[homer]

I mean I still think the Bucks win in 7. Home court is HUGE in the NBA.

[tmwiese55]

I really don't care about the Drake thing. To me, they can handle however they want. I mean, if Bud wanted a buddy standing next to him rubbing on him he could, his call. I think the only legit argument would be that as a team employee of the Raps he shouldn't be heckling the other team the way he does. If he was just a fan, well then same as anyone else and all guys in the front row stand and yell. Team employees though aren't supposed to be doing that.

[adambr2]

Win tonight and that "we're going to the NBA Finals" feeling will return. Lose tonight and I'll be resigned to a Raptors/Warriors final, watching Game 6 with detachment and without expectation.

[coolhandluke121]

I really don't care about the Drake thing. To me, they can handle however they want. I mean, if Bud wanted a buddy standing next to him rubbing on him he could, his call. I think the only legit argument would be that as a team employee of the Raps he shouldn't be heckling the other team the way he does. If he was just a fan, well then same as anyone else and all guys in the front row stand and yell. Team employees though aren't supposed to be doing that.

 

I care because he crosses the line, gets on the court, and even gets physical with players. With the history of things like Malice at the Palace and the Westbrook fight, they have to stop this before it gets ugly. The heckling and passion are great, but Drake is that fat kid who wants to be part of the team so bad and is so into it that he actually thinks he's part of the team and crosses the line. This incident with Durant is a good example. This is completely out of line and there's absolutely no place for this stuff between fans and players.

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

There's a lot of famous fans like Spike Lee or Jack Nicholson or whoever. None of them get on the court or touch the players or the coaches. Don't tell me how Drake is an employee. He's a brand ambassador, whatever that is. He doesn't need to be on the court being involved, and touching the players and coaches. He's making this more about him then the players and the game.

 

Also, if Toronto is cool with making a suspected pedophile their mascot, good on them.

[tmwiese55]

Well that's after the game when tons of people are on the court. Drake doesn't get on the floor during the games I've seen. Last game with the walking in front of other people's seats is the most I've seen. But really that's on them if they want to bend over for a celebrity over all their other fans to stand in front of them and make it all about him. But that's not on the court. Tor also seems to have a bit of weird setup with that much space in between the seats and the court so it looks worse. Most front court seats if you stand up you're essentially toe to toe with the court like he is.

 

To me though the main point should be that a team employee shouldn't be acting like that. Otherwise why doesn't everyone name someone an Ambassador and give them free reighn to go all over and heckle players. Well, i guess its kind of like a mascot, haha.

[coolhandluke121]

Well that's after the game when tons of people are on the court.

 

That makes it okay to shove Durant? Seriously?

[coolhandluke121]

Just worked up the nerve to watch the replay on a slow morning at work. Couldn't finish the 3rd quarter. Even more disgusting on replay because it's so obvious what the Bucks should have done differently, and it's extremely disappointing that the coaching staff couldn't see it. It's not about analytics or heart or playoff experience or hot/cold shooting. Excuse my long rant, but I'll start with the "too long; didn't read" version of my post and you can skip the rest if you want:

 

Toronto's small-ball lineups are killing the Bucks' bigger lineups, there's ingrained personnel and modern NBA strategy reasons that they are, the Bucks should have anticipated that they would, and it's pretty safe to assume that they will continue to do so and win the next 2 if Bud doesn't get his head out of his butt immediately. I know there are other stories about who played well and who played poorly, ft's, hitting shots, role players, etc, but this was by far the story of the game and everything else is just misdirection.

 

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Here's the rant:

 

Starting Niko at sf is a joke. "It's working, so stick with it?" Please. Of course it "worked" against Boston for a few games. Niko is much better than Brown and Milwaukee is much better than Boston. It's not working better than starting Brogdon worked... ***checks the game log***... for over 60 damn games?? I don't blame Niko at all; it was obviously that Toronto's small-ball lineups would hunt him on mismatches. This helped guys like Powell, FVV, and even Green get some confidence, and Niko can't abuse the mismatch on the other end nearly enough to make up for it.

 

Speaking of FVV and Powell getting some confidence, Brogdon is part of the issue there too. Playing Niko at sf takes Brogdon's sf minutes. He was doing a great job guarding Kawhi, but FVV and Powell are too quick for him and they're burning him off the ball. Now their confidence is sky-rocketing. The horse is out of the barn. They had Toronto on the ropes and let them right back in it. I don't blame Brogdon, but this is an issue going forward if Bud doesn't go back to giving him more sf minutes.

 

When the Bucks play big, they lose the mismatches in dramatic fashion. Either Gasol or Ibaka, combined with some of the best team defense in the NBA, is enough to keep the Bucks from abusing the Raptors in the paint, but Toronto's quickness is destroying the Bucks on the other end. Toronto's advantage far exceeds any advantages Milwaukee gets from playing so big.

 

Gasol is a better all-around player than Lopez, despite what happened in game 1. Lopez is even slower than Gasol, is not nearly the facilitator, defender, or rebounder, and arguably isn't even better at 3-point shooting at this point. Playing Giannis with Ersan or Niko as the other big might actually give the Bucks the mismatch advantage (big difference between "chasing" Lopez around the arc vs. having to run with Ersan or Niko), but they're squandering it for no reason.

 

Bledsoe and especially Hill have been good on defense for the most part, but their guards have gotten going because of the lack of team speed on defense.

 

Team speed also played a part in the rebounding. Some people mentioned the Raptors being hungrier and playing harder, but I think it was more about the Raptors being quicker and beating the Bucks to every spot for that reason. It made me want to break my computer, and I'm not normally a passionate fan. I'm more of an analytical guy who loves the strategy and artistry of the game.

 

And Hill is a much better player than Bledsoe right now, period. It's not even close. Bledsoe deserved his 1st-team all-defense award and was the Bucks' 2nd-best player most of the year, but he is being exposed badly while Hill has proven over and over that he's their 2nd-best player now. He's an even better defender than Bledsoe. Lateral quickness trumps downhill quickness on defense, he has even longer reach, and he's not prone to dumb fouls.

 

The solution:

 

Start Hill, Brogdon, Khris, Giannis, and Lopez.

Play Bledsoe and Giannis together less, since they both are so much better when surrounded by 4 shooters.

Ersan and Niko should get just as many minutes as Lopez, if not more.

If the Raptors want to play Kawhi as their 2nd-biggest player, fight fire with fire. The Bucks' small-ball should have even more firepower than the Raptors'.

[tmwiese55]

Shove? he walked by him and they bumped a bit and he immediately apologized. Probably like dozens of other guys did to each other and to players on the court. Look at any game when the players walk off through a mess of people, they bump all the time. It's like wading through any crowd. Granted, I'd have my money that Drake did it on purpose because he's full of himself. I'd also have my money that they're friends and it was messing around. Quick google: http://time.com/4543654/drake-nba-bandwagon-fan/

 

ETA: your last post on actual basketball is exactly what I've been saying as well. The stubbornness on this big lineup makes no sense. Bunch of folks keep obsessing about DJ Wilson because he's quicker than our other bigs. that's not it, you don't need the 3rd big on the floor. It shouldn't be hard to see. I have no idea why they've been so stubborn or why Niko has earned this much respect.

[tmwiese55]

There's a lot of famous fans like Spike Lee or Jack Nicholson or whoever. None of them get on the court or touch the players or the coaches. Don't tell me how Drake is an employee. He's a brand ambassador, whatever that is. He doesn't need to be on the court being involved, and touching the players and coaches. He's making this more about him then the players and the game.

 

Also, if Toronto is cool with making a suspected pedophile their mascot, good on them.

 

Yes, they don't but there's also no reason they can't if the team allows it. No other teams allow it though because it looks terrible and as if this jabroni celebrity is bigger than the team. It shouldn't be about him. And again toe to toe with the court isn't actually being on the court. Tons of guys are toe to toe. Think of times when refs have to move fans so players have space to stand sideline to in bounds.

 

For the employee aspect, imo that's the big negative of this. If anything being an employee or whatever he qualifies in this ambassador role should be the biggest thing that stops him from acting like this, not the other way around. Basically in a specific function with the team he should act like a professional with respect. If he was just a fan he can do whatever dumb stuff he wants just like anyone else can, as long as not vulgar and racist.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The Raps won't do a thing to restrain him. That state of the art practice facility came out of his pockets. The league probably should do something just as a matter of precedent. Letting people wander around and rub the coach is a pretty reasonable line imo.

[FVBrewerFan]

Shove? he walked by him and they bumped a bit and he immediately apologized. Probably like dozens of other guys did to each other and to players on the court. Look at any game when the players walk off through a mess of people, they bump all the time. It's like wading through any crowd. Granted, I'd have my money that Drake did it on purpose because he's full of himself. I'd also have my money that they're friends and it was messing around. Quick google: http://time.com/4543654/drake-nba-bandwagon-fan/

 

ETA: your last post on actual basketball is exactly what I've been saying as well. The stubbornness on this big lineup makes no sense. Bunch of folks keep obsessing about DJ Wilson because he's quicker than our other bigs. that's not it, you don't need the 3rd big on the floor. It shouldn't be hard to see. I have no idea why they've been so stubborn or why Niko has earned this much respect.

 

Pick your poison. Went they went smaller, they got killed on the boards. They basically have 8 1/2 man rotation, so those 8 guys will all get lots of minutes. Doesn't matter all that much who starts. They simply need to play better, harder, and smarter on both ends of the court. I also don't think Bud is stubborn. He didn't hesitate to yank Bledsoe early in game 3, and had been playing different combos. Like in all sports, professional coaches don't panic the way fans do. It's been 4 games, I'm sure he will make other changes tonight.

 

For my rant, I'll say again it's a waste of time to have Giannis at the top and say "here, go at wall, good luck." When he's at the top he needs a ball sceen, pnr, something. But mostly he should be getting the ball on the wings here he can attack at an angle, or in the post.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I've seen enough of Giannis bringing that ball up. I think it's possibly the worst way he can be used in this series.

[tmwiese55]

I agree with the Giannis just dribble straight at a set D as a bad offense. Need movement of some kind, screens whatever. However, off that the best O they had last game was when he'd swing to the wings and they'd attack the closeout. You know who can't do that, bigs. You just don't need 3 bigs on the floor when they only have 2. They only have 3 bigs total so obviously they don't play together much since you need to rest. I looked it up and they've only played all 3 together 7 total minutes, 3 of which came last game due to Ibaka playing great. Plus, since we're playing 3 bigs a lot they can if they want.

 

The lineup data on that starting unit is terrible. And we've lost every Q1 other than 2 in the 9 games since Boston started.

 

Another reason for bad rebounding isn't just lack of size. It's bad when you get scrambling, this is why we sucked with Kidd and that's what they've been doing on D. We have big guys running around the perimeter trying to chase wings/Gs. They can easily attack them and swing and keep you chasing until they get a wide open shot. All the while your guys are horribly out of position for rebounding due to scrambling.

 

They need an overhaul on D. First with playing logically, there's a reason no teams play 3 bigs anymore. After that we'll see what else they try. Personally I'd stop the mass doubling/tripling of Kawhi since he's hurt and see how it goes. But you can stay home on shooters. Another option would be to switch like they did vs Boston. This would stop Gasol standing wide open uncovered for multiple 3s every game. And in general stop that all over. But risks a bad matchup vs Kawhi.

[Samurai Bucky]

They are a five out, or 4x1 team. That is their bread and butter. Who on this team is really good at going to the rim and forcing the issue? Giannis? Ok... well they put up the wall and, in essence, triple team him? Bledsoe? He either coughs up the ball or misses the layup.

 

David Gruber will go low for Kawhi's knees. One fall... that's all.

 

[sarcasm]I know I'm old and out of touch, but who is Drake exactly?[/sarcasm]

[HiAndTight]

Shove? he walked by him and they bumped a bit and he immediately apologized. Probably like dozens of other guys did to each other and to players on the court. Look at any game when the players walk off through a mess of people, they bump all the time. It's like wading through any crowd. Granted, I'd have my money that Drake did it on purpose because he's full of himself. I'd also have my money that they're friends and it was messing around. Quick google: http://time.com/4543654/drake-nba-bandwagon-fan/

 

ETA: your last post on actual basketball is exactly what I've been saying as well. The stubbornness on this big lineup makes no sense. Bunch of folks keep obsessing about DJ Wilson because he's quicker than our other bigs. that's not it, you don't need the 3rd big on the floor. It shouldn't be hard to see. I have no idea why they've been so stubborn or why Niko has earned this much respect.

 

 

Yeah, calling that a shove is laughable. It looked like he had his shoulder turned trying to walk past him. And that's after the game. I usually consider a shove extending your arms. Not bumping into a guy as you're walking past him with your shoulders turned away from him.

 

 

Either way, Drake's a clown but we wouldn't care nearly as much if he wasn't celebrating right as Giannis was air-balling a couple FT's or missing big shots.

 

There are steps you have to go through to become the best. Jordan had to get by the Piston's with their physical D and the Jordan rules, Giannis has to learn to get by teams walling him off, or he has to find a way to create separation on a freakishly talented defender like Kawhi. I'm just hoping they can adjust mid-series and it doesn't take an off-season for him to do so.

 

Still, if the Bucks find a way to win game 3, there's a good chance the Raptors lie down. So I don't think things are as dire as they looked. Toronto fans were apoplectic after game 2 in Milwaukee and resigned to their fate. Now a lot of Bucks fans are feeling the same way. The only thing that's changed is my level of confidence in a potential finals series and that's really more because of how Golden State has looked.

 

 

I'm gonna bet that Bledsoe starts tonight, so it'd be great if he could start off by taking it to the basket and just going up strong. He's such a physical player and while he's short, he's got long arms. He can still be an effective player playing that way and that could very easily get him going in other aspects.

 

I'd also like to see them move the ball better. They're holding the ball too long and they look tentative, even with their passes. Part of that is Toronto's long defenders getting in the passing lanes, but most of it is on the Bucks.

[coolhandluke121]

Shove? he walked by him and they bumped a bit and he immediately apologized. Probably like dozens of other guys did to each other and to players on the court. Look at any game when the players walk off through a mess of people, they bump all the time. It's like wading through any crowd. Granted, I'd have my money that Drake did it on purpose because he's full of himself. I'd also have my money that they're friends and it was messing around. Quick google: http://time.com/4543654/drake-nba-bandwagon-fan/

 

ETA: your last post on actual basketball is exactly what I've been saying as well. The stubbornness on this big lineup makes no sense. Bunch of folks keep obsessing about DJ Wilson because he's quicker than our other bigs. that's not it, you don't need the 3rd big on the floor. It shouldn't be hard to see. I have no idea why they've been so stubborn or why Niko has earned this much respect.

 

 

Yeah, calling that a shove is laughable.

 

You've obviously never had someone do that to you on purpose. It was a shove.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Pick your poison. Went they went smaller, they got killed on the boards.

 

I didn't see it that way at all. Are you sure you're not just assuming they got killed on the boards when they went small because that's usually the trade-off? I thought they struggled on the boards all game. As tmwiese correctly pointed out, a major issue on the boards was so many slow bigs trying to contest the perimeter and scrambling to get back in position to rebound.

 

Brogdon, Hill, Bledsoe, and Middleton are all above average rebounders for their position. Pat C is elite, though I'd only play him 8-10 mpg to make the substitutions work. Rebounding is the least of my worries if they play smaller.

[monkeyman343434]

Just worked up the nerve to watch the replay on a slow morning at work. Couldn't finish the 3rd quarter. Even more disgusting on replay because it's so obvious what the Bucks should have done differently, and it's extremely disappointing that the coaching staff couldn't see it. It's not about analytics or heart or playoff experience or hot/cold shooting. Excuse my long rant, but I'll start with the "too long; didn't read" version of my post and you can skip the rest if you want:

 

Toronto's small-ball lineups are killing the Bucks' bigger lineups, there's ingrained personnel and modern NBA strategy reasons that they are, the Bucks should have anticipated that they would, and it's pretty safe to assume that they will continue to do so and win the next 2 if Bud doesn't get his head out of his butt immediately. I know there are other stories about who played well and who played poorly, ft's, hitting shots, role players, etc, but this was by far the story of the game and everything else is just misdirection.

 

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Here's the rant:

 

Starting Niko at sf is a joke. "It's working, so stick with it?" Please. Of course it "worked" against Boston for a few games. Niko is much better than Brown and Milwaukee is much better than Boston. It's not working better than starting Brogdon worked... ***checks the game log***... for over 60 damn games?? I don't blame Niko at all; it was obviously that Toronto's small-ball lineups would hunt him on mismatches. This helped guys like Powell, FVV, and even Green get some confidence, and Niko can't abuse the mismatch on the other end nearly enough to make up for it.

 

Speaking of FVV and Powell getting some confidence, Brogdon is part of the issue there too. Playing Niko at sf takes Brogdon's sf minutes. He was doing a great job guarding Kawhi, but FVV and Powell are too quick for him and they're burning him off the ball. Now their confidence is sky-rocketing. The horse is out of the barn. They had Toronto on the ropes and let them right back in it. I don't blame Brogdon, but this is an issue going forward if Bud doesn't go back to giving him more sf minutes.

 

When the Bucks play big, they lose the mismatches in dramatic fashion. Either Gasol or Ibaka, combined with some of the best team defense in the NBA, is enough to keep the Bucks from abusing the Raptors in the paint, but Toronto's quickness is destroying the Bucks on the other end. Toronto's advantage far exceeds any advantages Milwaukee gets from playing so big.

 

Gasol is a better all-around player than Lopez, despite what happened in game 1. Lopez is even slower than Gasol, is not nearly the facilitator, defender, or rebounder, and arguably isn't even better at 3-point shooting at this point. Playing Giannis with Ersan or Niko as the other big might actually give the Bucks the mismatch advantage (big difference between "chasing" Lopez around the arc vs. having to run with Ersan or Niko), but they're squandering it for no reason.

 

Bledsoe and especially Hill have been good on defense for the most part, but their guards have gotten going because of the lack of team speed on defense.

 

Team speed also played a part in the rebounding. Some people mentioned the Raptors being hungrier and playing harder, but I think it was more about the Raptors being quicker and beating the Bucks to every spot for that reason. It made me want to break my computer, and I'm not normally a passionate fan. I'm more of an analytical guy who loves the strategy and artistry of the game.

 

And Hill is a much better player than Bledsoe right now, period. It's not even close. Bledsoe deserved his 1st-team all-defense award and was the Bucks' 2nd-best player most of the year, but he is being exposed badly while Hill has proven over and over that he's their 2nd-best player now. He's an even better defender than Bledsoe. Lateral quickness trumps downhill quickness on defense, he has even longer reach, and he's not prone to dumb fouls.

 

The solution:

 

Start Hill, Brogdon, Khris, Giannis, and Lopez.

Play Bledsoe and Giannis together less, since they both are so much better when surrounded by 4 shooters.

Ersan and Niko should get just as many minutes as Lopez, if not more.

If the Raptors want to play Kawhi as their 2nd-biggest player, fight fire with fire. The Bucks' small-ball should have even more firepower than the Raptors'.

 

I completely agree with EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. you made here, it was painfully obvious watching all 4 games so far this series, that starting Niko with Lopez and Giannis was not the way to go, that Toronto is just way to quick for that lineup. I don't understand how Bud hasn't adjusted to this yet. Also, there's been way too many times that both Khris and Giannis are on the bench together. There is zero reason for both to be on the bench at the same time, outside of blowout minutes at the end of the game. Completely agree with you that Bled's minutes need to mostly be when Giannis is on the bench now. Also wouldn't mind seeing some Brown and DJ Wilson minutes if the team needs a little energy boost. Brown played well - in limited minutes - down the stretch and earlier in the playoffs, not sure how he went from starting to not even sniffing the floor. I'm not saying he needs to play 20+ minutes a game, but getting a few minutes wouldn't kill the rotation (same as Wilson).

[HiAndTight]

You've obviously never had someone do that to you on purpose. It was a shove.

 

No, I'd definitely been bumped into by someone. I've never been shoved by someone's back and then immediately apologized to.

 

Weren't you the one that said just saying something is true doesn't make it so?

[FVBrewerFan]

There's been a lot of talk about what works/ doesn't work with various personnel groups. Important to note, just because a certain grouping (or individual player) hasn't been effective, it may be the next game. That's what happens in a 7 game series, something works in game 4 that didn't in game 3, etc. You have to keep tinkering constantly. Same thing with game plan in general, you need to keep changing thing, even if it's minor, on both ends of the court. Part of that is how you use Giannis on the offensive side, and tweaking how you defend the pnr on defense as examples.

 

I would not be opposed to trying Sterling Brown on Kawhi for a few minutes to see what happens, have been thinking about that myself. Wh knows, maybe he can even knock down a couple threes.

 

Finally, talking about The Drake is exactly what he wants us to do. Ignore it, scoreboard trumps it all.