Eastern Conference Finals: Milwaukee Bucks vs Toronto Raptors

[coolhandluke121]

The Bucks didn't move around much on offense two nights ago. They're so used to Giannis finishing off the play and going ISO (well, him against three guys) and two nights ago they just stood in place and watched.

 

I agree completely. Imagine what Redick would do in this offense. I've given up hope of Khris ever committing to better movement off the ball, but he could be great in that role if he'd embrace it. It seems like the Bucks have a lot of guys who like to work with the ball in their hands though. Which is fine for now, but when it comes to beating GSW, you're going to need to eliminate any inefficiencies you can.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The Bucks are 10-2 in the playoffs. Walling off the lane for Giannis is a) hard and b) often not enough. I know everyone is excited and the spacing between games lends itself to overanalyzing, but it is kind of amusing how everybody tries to re-invent the wheel when they lose a game. I mean I'm guilty of it too, but the nature of 7-game series is sort of just keep being yourself and you'll get to four faster. It's kind of a given you'll drop a game here and there if for no other reason than you have a bad shooting night.

[tmwiese55]

Yea if they somehow could get the young Redick in Joe Harris that would be such a good fit. They have a lot of capable shooters on this team but not a true sharpshooter like that. Looks like Harris has 1 year left on his deal at 7ish mil. I've said for years one of LBJs biggest mistakes is not pairing up with JJ Redick. Maybe they don't like each other though, IDK. And I guess you could also say for refusing to give Harris a chance when he was on the Cavs.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

LeBron did team up with Mike Miller and Korver. And Ray Allen.

[tmwiese55]

LeBron did team up with Mike Miller and Korver. And Ray Allen.

 

Old versions though. Miller and Korver could barely move by then. But yea I should've probably included "post Ray retiring". Him and JJ are basically the same age, should've been attached at the hip as soon as possible.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Reddick is probably one of the most underrated players of the last decade.

[FVBrewerFan]

I don't agree at all that Giannis can't carry a team because he can't shoot. That's like saying Shaq couldn't shoot. There's no law that says you have to be a great hero-ball scorer all over the court to be the best player in the league. If you draw double and triple teams and kick it out, you've done your job. That's just as valuable as scoring it yourself. There's never going to be a time where the league decides Giannis has to score it himself more in those situations.

 

If anything, Giannis needs to make sure he never listens to the people who say "you have to take over and score more" because that's where he gets into real trouble, forcing the issue instead of trusting his teammates. When there's that many defenders near the paint because of you, you're basically already carrying the team on offense even if you don't score a single point. If defenses want to let Milwaukee's shooters get open 3's all day, let them. We've already seen that lead to one of the best offenses in the league all season.

 

If there's a complaint about offense, it should be on the shooters. I know the team's percentages are good, but if you consider how many wide open looks they get, it's actually not that impressive. Brogdon, Snell, Hill, and Ersan keep their percentages up by only taking wide open shots right at the arc. Lopez and Mirotic will shoot deep ones, but not at a great percentage. Khris doesn't do a good job working for open 3's off the ball. Only Mirotic and Khris have a quick release. I mean guess Bledsoe has a quick release too, but what good is that?

 

Giannis is the best player in the world right now. It's very rare to have someone that good on both ends of the court. Complaining about his inability to score every time in isoball possessions is especially odd at a time when we're seeing once again what the Warriors can do without Durant, who is one of the guys some people are still suggesting is better than Giannis for iso scoring reasons even though the Warriors hardly miss him (and even though he doesn't have to deal with nearly the same defensive attention Giannis does). There's nothing wrong with having to trust your teammates and keep moving the ball. In fact, it's usually better than falling into the trap of watching an iso scorer go to work all the time. This focus on a guy's isolation scoring ability is exactly the kind of thinking that leads people to assume Boston is the odds-on favorite to win the East because " OMG they added Kyrie to a team that already made the ECF without him the year before!!"

 

Games are not an all-star game skills competitions. Giannis is like Shaq, easily the most effective player in the league right now and one of the most effective of all time regardless of shooting.

 

Most of this is a strawman argument, best examples of that bolded. Giannis is the best player in the league. He will be in the HOF. Nobody will ever wear #34 ever again in Milwaukee.

 

But without being able to shoot, he can't take over and score whenever he wants. That's especially important at the end of games when you want the ball in the hands of an elite player. He's not that type of player, neither was Shaq. Heck, Shaq needed to be benched at the end of games once hack-a-shaq became a thing.

 

I'm not suggesting (nor has anyone) that Giannis should shoot more. He's kicking it out as he should, and as i mentioned earlier he should start games seeing himself more as an old school PG and don't worry about scoring until things loosen up a bit as the game goes on.

 

Bottom line, not being able to be the man at the end of game, or even stretches during the game when offense is suffering, is his downside. When you NEED a shot, would you rather have your HOF take it, or shuffle it off to whoever is open? What if that someone is Bledsoe or Lopez? For many, many years there hasn't been a star of the team that was won a championship who can't shoot. Giannis is so different and special he may change that, but we're fighting history.

[coolhandluke121]

I don't agree at all that Giannis can't carry a team because he can't shoot. That's like saying Shaq couldn't shoot. There's no law that says you have to be a great hero-ball scorer all over the court to be the best player in the league.

 

Most of this is a strawman argument, best examples of that bolded. Giannis is the best player in the league. He will be in the HOF. Nobody will ever wear #34 ever again in Milwaukee.

 

 

It's not a strawman argument. There are tons of people still saying Durant is better than Giannis for this reason. Personally I don't think it's even close. We've seen Durant carrying a team before and he was actually kind of ball-hoggy and prone to bad turnovers while being a defensive liability, probably in part because he was spending so much energy on offense.

 

I'll grant that it's rare to be the best player in the league without being a good shooter, but Giannis is. And the exact statement was "I'm not sure Giannis can carry a team to a title," which I could not disagree with more. Every player has some weaknesses - why sit here and say "Giannis can't hit a jumper when the game is on the line" instead of saying "Durant can't keep Giannis from getting a dunk or getting to the line when the game is on the line?" It's arbitrary and strikes me as a question of style as opposed to effectiveness. And even Giannis's abnormally bad ft shooting these playoffs aren't near hack-a-Shaq territory. No way any team is wasting their fouls to give up 1.33 points per possession. It's okay if Brogdon, Hill, Mirotic, Ersan, Lopez, or Middleton has to take that jumper. It really is.

[KeithStone53151]

Most of this is a strawman argument, best examples of that bolded. Giannis is the best player in the league. He will be in the HOF. Nobody will ever wear #34 ever again in Milwaukee.

 

But without being able to shoot, he can't take over and score whenever he wants. That's especially important at the end of games when you want the ball in the hands of an elite player. He's not that type of player, neither was Shaq. Heck, Shaq needed to be benched at the end of games once hack-a-shaq became a thing.

 

I'm not suggesting (nor has anyone) that Giannis should shoot more. He's kicking it out as he should, and as i mentioned earlier he should start games seeing himself more as an old school PG and don't worry about scoring until things loosen up a bit as the game goes on.

 

Bottom line, not being able to be the man at the end of game, or even stretches during the game when offense is suffering, is his downside. When you NEED a shot, would you rather have your HOF take it, or shuffle it off to whoever is open? What if that someone is Bledsoe or Lopez? For many, many years there hasn't been a star of the team that was won a championship who can't shoot. Giannis is so different and special he may change that, but we're fighting history.

 

Sure Giannis isn't the best option to take a 3 at the end of a game. But if teams don't double or triple team him on the drive...he can pretty much dunk at will on all but maybe 5 guys in the league. If you have the right supporting pieces around him, dish it off to an open middleton or brogdon or mirotic...that's a much better scenario than having Kobe take a 3 pointer contested by 2 defenders with time expiring.

[HiAndTight]

I don't agree at all that Giannis can't carry a team because he can't shoot. That's like saying Shaq couldn't shoot. There's no law that says you have to be a great hero-ball scorer all over the court to be the best player in the league. If you draw double and triple teams and kick it out, you've done your job. That's just as valuable as scoring it yourself. There's never going to be a time where the league decides Giannis has to score it himself more in those situations.

 

If anything, Giannis needs to make sure he never listens to the people who say "you have to take over and score more" because that's where he gets into real trouble, forcing the issue instead of trusting his teammates. When there's that many defenders near the paint because of you, you're basically already carrying the team on offense even if you don't score a single point. If defenses want to let Milwaukee's shooters get open 3's all day, let them. We've already seen that lead to one of the best offenses in the league all season.

 

If there's a complaint about offense, it should be on the shooters. I know the team's percentages are good, but if you consider how many wide open looks they get, it's actually not that impressive. Brogdon, Snell, Hill, and Ersan keep their percentages up by only taking wide open shots right at the arc. Lopez and Mirotic will shoot deep ones, but not at a great percentage. Khris doesn't do a good job working for open 3's off the ball. Only Mirotic and Khris have a quick release. I mean guess Bledsoe has a quick release too, but what good is that?

 

Giannis is the best player in the world right now. It's very rare to have someone that good on both ends of the court. Complaining about his inability to score every time in isoball possessions is especially odd at a time when we're seeing once again what the Warriors can do without Durant, who is one of the guys some people are still suggesting is better than Giannis for iso scoring reasons even though the Warriors hardly miss him (and even though he doesn't have to deal with nearly the same defensive attention Giannis does). There's nothing wrong with having to trust your teammates and keep moving the ball. In fact, it's usually better than falling into the trap of watching an iso scorer go to work all the time. This focus on a guy's isolation scoring ability is exactly the kind of thinking that leads people to assume Boston is the odds-on favorite to win the East because " OMG they added Kyrie to a team that already made the ECF without him the year before!!"

 

Games are not an all-star game skills competitions. Giannis is like Shaq, easily the most effective player in the league right now and one of the most effective of all time regardless of shooting.

 

 

You realize Curry just stepped in and took over as the primary scorer in Durant's place, right? It's hard to use the argument that. And you keep saying ISO ball, most everyone else is just talking about shooting. His shot needs to improve to be the best in the world. Hardly a complaint, just a simple opinion that most people agree with.

 

And Shaq was a dominant force, but he had Kobe who could get his own shot and score and then Wade in his prime. He had huge flaws in his game that made him need another star in the biggest moments.

 

Giannis is the MVP, he's not the best player in the NBA yet. He's got to be able to knock down the open shots on a consistent basis for him to take the last step.

 

It's hardly a huge insult to say that in order to become the best player he has to become a slightly better shooter from both the FT line and if not 3 point range, that mid-range game. Otherwise, everyone knows where he's going.

 

 

Given the enormous jumps he's made in past seasons, there's little reason to doubt he'll become a better shooter.

[coolhandluke121]

Here's another way of looking at it. It's actually very rare for a player as dominant as Shaq or Giannis in their primes to NOT instantly make their team a contender with any kind of respectable supporting cast at all. That's more relevant than saying how rare it is to have a top superstar who can't shoot lead his team to a title, because we haven't had a superstar as dominant inside as Giannis since Shaq and before that probably Kareem and Wilt, so of course there haven't been many.

[coolhandluke121]

Raise your hand if you ever claimed Shaq wasn't the best player in the league in 2000-2002 because he couldn't shoot. Give me a break.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Raise your hand if you ever claimed Shaq wasn't the best player in the league in 2000-2002 because he couldn't shoot. Give me a break.

 

I did. I always said he was the most dominant force, but absolutely not the best player. I can't give that praise to guy that shoots 50% from the line. Just can't.

[coolhandluke121]

Raise your hand if you ever claimed Shaq wasn't the best player in the league in 2000-2002 because he couldn't shoot. Give me a break.

 

I did. I always said he was the most dominant force, but absolutely not the best player. I can't give that praise to guy that shoots 50% from the line. Just can't.

 

That really makes it sound like impact on winning is not your measurement of what makes the best player. Don't you think it should be?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

My issue with Giannis right now is that, if the Bucks are trailing late in a game, I'm nervous if he does anything besides dunk, and I'm shaking when he's attempting free throws. I think he is the MVP, but it isn't very different from what many said about LeBron before he became a better shooter. If the lane is walled off you want Giannis to pass to George Hill or Middleton. Take someone like KD, and you have to protect his drive but he can also decide to shoot a 3 right over you. It's not a huge criticism, but it's a valid one nonetheless. It's normal for people to take what a guy is worst at and imagine how good he could be.

[HiAndTight]

I don't agree at all that Giannis can't carry a team because he can't shoot. That's like saying Shaq couldn't shoot. There's no law that says you have to be a great hero-ball scorer all over the court to be the best player in the league. If you draw double and triple teams and kick it out, you've done your job. That's just as valuable as scoring it yourself. There's never going to be a time where the league decides Giannis has to score it himself more in those situations.

 

If anything, Giannis needs to make sure he never listens to the people who say "you have to take over and score more" because that's where he gets into real trouble, forcing the issue instead of trusting his teammates. When there's that many defenders near the paint because of you, you're basically already carrying the team on offense even if you don't score a single point. If defenses want to let Milwaukee's shooters get open 3's all day, let them. We've already seen that lead to one of the best offenses in the league all season.

 

If there's a complaint about offense, it should be on the shooters. I know the team's percentages are good, but if you consider how many wide open looks they get, it's actually not that impressive. Brogdon, Snell, Hill, and Ersan keep their percentages up by only taking wide open shots right at the arc. Lopez and Mirotic will shoot deep ones, but not at a great percentage. Khris doesn't do a good job working for open 3's off the ball. Only Mirotic and Khris have a quick release. I mean guess Bledsoe has a quick release too, but what good is that?

 

Giannis is the best player in the world right now. It's very rare to have someone that good on both ends of the court. Complaining about his inability to score every time in isoball possessions is especially odd at a time when we're seeing once again what the Warriors can do without Durant, who is one of the guys some people are still suggesting is better than Giannis for iso scoring reasons even though the Warriors hardly miss him (and even though he doesn't have to deal with nearly the same defensive attention Giannis does). There's nothing wrong with having to trust your teammates and keep moving the ball. In fact, it's usually better than falling into the trap of watching an iso scorer go to work all the time. This focus on a guy's isolation scoring ability is exactly the kind of thinking that leads people to assume Boston is the odds-on favorite to win the East because " OMG they added Kyrie to a team that already made the ECF without him the year before!!"

 

Games are not an all-star game skills competitions. Giannis is like Shaq, easily the most effective player in the league right now and one of the most effective of all time regardless of shooting.

 

Most of this is a strawman argument, best examples of that bolded. Giannis is the best player in the league. He will be in the HOF. Nobody will ever wear #34 ever again in Milwaukee.

 

But without being able to shoot, he can't take over and score whenever he wants. That's especially important at the end of games when you want the ball in the hands of an elite player. He's not that type of player, neither was Shaq. Heck, Shaq needed to be benched at the end of games once hack-a-shaq became a thing.

 

I'm not suggesting (nor has anyone) that Giannis should shoot more. He's kicking it out as he should, and as i mentioned earlier he should start games seeing himself more as an old school PG and don't worry about scoring until things loosen up a bit as the game goes on.

 

Bottom line, not being able to be the man at the end of game, or even stretches during the game when offense is suffering, is his downside. When you NEED a shot, would you rather have your HOF take it, or shuffle it off to whoever is open? What if that someone is Bledsoe or Lopez? For many, many years there hasn't been a star of the team that was won a championship who can't shoot. Giannis is so different and special he may change that, but we're fighting history.

 

 

Completely agree. Once his shot improves, he's going to become impossible to defend. I think literally the only person I've heard who hasnt agreed with this is Shaq himself while watching the halftime shows. He starts being able to knock down the open shot and even Kawhi's not going to be able to guard him.

 

Without the open shot, we've seen what Kawhi is able to do to him during this season and in the post-season.

 

He was still an enormously effective player in the last game with the rebounds and everything else he does.

 

I'm just glad Giannis is looking to always improve even if others don't think he needs to. I really don't understand the argument AGAINST Giannis needing to improve his shot. It's something LeBron had to do in order to continue his ascension, it's something Jordan had to do. And it's something Giannis has to do. Hell, he's even said it himself.

 

Until then, we need our deep supporting cast to hit shots, soften them up. And even using last game as an example, there were quite a few shots he missed that he normally makes within 5 feet. But without a good shot, he forced the issue, Kawhi played great D on him and he went into the lane with Kawhi on him and a combination of Gasol, Ibaka, and Pascal coming over to help.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Raise your hand if you ever claimed Shaq wasn't the best player in the league in 2000-2002 because he couldn't shoot. Give me a break.

 

I did. I always said he was the most dominant force, but absolutely not the best player. I can't give that praise to guy that shoots 50% from the line. Just can't.

 

That really makes it sound like impact on winning is not your measurement of what makes the best player. Don't you think it should be?

 

It depends how you measure that I guess. LAL probably would've won 8 straight titles with Duncan instead of Shaq, who would have deflected all praise to Kobe while being mostly as effective and hitting a lot more FTs.

[HiAndTight]

My issue with Giannis right now is that, if the Bucks are trailing late in a game, I'm nervous if he does anything besides dunk, and I'm shaking when he's attempting free throws. I think he is the MVP, but it isn't very different from what many said about LeBron before he became a better shooter. If the lane is walled off you want Giannis to pass to George Hill or Middleton. Take someone like KD, and you have to protect his drive but he can also decide to shoot a 3 right over you. It's not a huge criticism, but it's a valid one nonetheless. It's normal for people to take what a guy is worst at and imagine how good he could be.

 

 

Particularly with Giannis as that could literally make him the greatest ever as many other former and current players or analysts have said. IF he develops a reliable shot, it makes him completely unstoppable.

[HiAndTight]

Raise your hand if you ever claimed Shaq wasn't the best player in the league in 2000-2002 because he couldn't shoot. Give me a break.

 

I did. I always said he was the most dominant force, but absolutely not the best player. I can't give that praise to guy that shoots 50% from the line. Just can't.

 

 

It also kinda changes things when you have one of the best shooting guard to ever play on the same team. That's a ridiculous standard. The Bucks don't have anyone who's even remotely close to Kobe to put the ball in their hands late in games. Kobe was the guy who took the ball in the biggest moments. Kobe was the Killer. Shaq couldn't win without a Kobe or Wade.

 

 

If the Bucks somehow manage to add a poor mans Jordan to the Bucks, then I guess Giannis won't have to worry about improving his shot. I think the better question is what is the possible argument for NOT wanting Giannis to improve at that area of the game when it's so obvious it's his biggest flaw and it's equally obvious he's capable of doing so?

 

This guy was not a great player in Greece's second division just 6 years ago. He's not a finished player yet and I don't see what's wrong with being able to admit that.

[tmwiese55]

I want the wide open guy shooting the shot. Like Steve Kerr, Paxon, Horry, Fisher did to win multiple titles. Of course if Giannis added a shot it would make him better, heck it probably makes him the best ever. But because he's not perfect doesn't mean he's not the best player. I'm just gald they went away with stuff they did last year at crunch time where it was "he's the best guy so throw it iso and shoot a jumper even though you're a bad shooter"

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Of course, but the point is if you take Kerr out of the play Michael can still hit the three. So can Giannis, really, he's gotten a lot better, but it's the one part of his game that most people agree is still going to improve.

[tmwiese55]

And if they don't double Giannis he gets the dunk. Basically, I'd take a wide open shot from anyone over a contested jumper from anyone, including MJ, Kobe or whoever. The hero ball stuff is BS, look how many Kawhi missed just last game. Google clutch shooting stats and look at the %s, iso hero ball is trash. Just have to maintain your normal team offense like prime Spurs and let shot fall where it falls.

 

But yes, of course better shooting from Giannis can only help. And his tension at the FT line late in games needs to improve

[FVBrewerFan]

Of course, all this conversation means Giannis will come out tonight and score 40, going 4/6 from 3.

[tmwiese55]

Let's hope. Even just one or two early 3s could make them step out a bit

[PinaMadness]

Wonderful. Bledsoe is still starting.