Eastern Conference Finals: Milwaukee Bucks vs Toronto Raptors

[homer]

I thought the Bucks should have gone to the bench for a few minutes in the 1st OT. The starters played a ton of minutes in the 4th and were absolutely dragging. Toronto was on their heels and I think some fresh legs might have been enough. Good news is I don't think Toronto can play better and I know the Bucks can.

[homer]

The demoralizing thing about today is was such a winnable game in which just one of our guys stepping up like Lopez in Game 1 changes the entire outcome. No one did.

 

Middleton just had a rough game. He'll be fine. Bledsoe is different. I'm getting pretty convinced that he's a guy who just can't handle the bright playoff lights. He looked like a total head case, and not for the first time this postseason.

 

George Hill absolutely stepped up. He had 24 on NINE shots.

 

60 fouls called in 58 minutes of play. That was astoundingly horrible officiating. No consistency in what or how the game was called on either side.

 

yeah those officials were really bad. Kawahi is the master at drawing a foul with zero contact. Some bad calls both ways though.

[PinaMadness]

Bud should expand his bench a little more next game. DJ Wilson would've provided a shot in the arm defensively. The one game Toronto won in the regular season Siakim absolutely obliterated Ilysova. Bud might need to consider matching Giannis with Siakam if he’s not going to play Wilson.

[KeithStone53151]

You can definitely say "it ain't over til it's over", but this series was pretty much over after game 2. Game 3 makes it a bit interesting, and the Raptors could certainly get hot from behind the arc for a couple games and make this a series...but that team has to be exhausted after game 3 though...they simply cannot run with the young/deep Bucks. Game 4 will likely be Bucks and Game 5 at home will probably be it.

[Baldkin]

Bud should expand his bench a little more next game. DJ Wilson would've provided a shot in the arm defensively. The one game Toronto won in the regular season Siakim absolutely obliterated Ilysova. Bud might need to consider matching Giannis with Siakam if he’s not going to play Wilson.

 

Giannis has been on him almost the entire series. They leave him wide open and switch some actions.

[HiAndTight]

If you're actually worried the Bucks are gonna drop this series, losing 3 of the next 4 against a team with no legs and an injured superstar, that just needed double OT at home to beat us on our worst night with Giannis shooting 5/1000 then nothing I say will comfort you. This series isn't in jeopardy. They just took an uppercut from a very good but inferior team. They don't have three more of those in them. The Bucks are fine.

 

I do think we'll win the series. I just think it's more like a 85%-90% chance rather than the mortal lock that some seem to. I think collectively we tend to overuse the "this this and this all went wrong and we still almost won" arguments. I'm losing count of how many times we've played the "our worst night" card in the playoffs so far.

 

Each game is it's own animal. Giannis might go for 40 on Tuesday and Kawhi might go for 50 and we lose by a point. One of Giannis' best games this season, I recall, was a home loss to Philly.

 

Toronto will probably be favored to win on Tuesday, as they were today, and then if the bounces don't go your way all of the sudden you've got a best of 3. Now hopefully we can put that all to rest on Tueaday, but we take way too much for granted against a 58 win team. Leonard could go MJ on us the rest of the series, we just don't know. Again, I do think we'll win this series. We just seem to assume an awful lot for a team that hasn't been to the Finals in almost 50 years. We're not the Warriors -- not yet anyway.

 

 

Well, it's only been two times really that we've talked about everything going wrong, Game 1 vs Boston and then last night.

 

Second, I hate when people talk about the history of a franchise when the oldest player on the team wasn't even alive when this run of 50 years started. It has nothing to do with Giannis or Lopez or anyone. And would it somehow be more likely if Big Dog hits that shot in the last seconds vs Philly and the Bucks get routed by the Lakers? Then it'd be a team that hasn't been there in 18 years.

 

 

I would agree, we are probably a bit TOO confident. The Raptors are a really good team and Kawhi is a freakishly talented player. I think the very few small warts Giannis does still have in his game can be exposed with Kawhi on him and if Middelton isn't hitting his shots, things could go the wrong way. 85-90 pct confidence though is pretty damn high. And Warrented given how the stars had to align for Toronto to beat us.(and Kawhi getting away with the double dribble to essentially put the game away)

 

I've seen crazier things happen in sports. But Toronto winning 3 of the next 4 with 2 in Milwaukee seems unlikely to me.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'll forever believe that the 01 Bucks would've fared much better against LAL than Philadelphia. That team was streaky for sure, but when those three guys were on they were super hard to stop.

[homer]

I'll forever believe that the 01 Bucks would've fared much better against LAL than Philadelphia. That team was streaky for sure, but when those three guys were on they were super hard to stop.

 

Agreed. Bucks swept the Lakers that year. They would have just shot over the top of Shaq.

[adambr2]

If you're actually worried the Bucks are gonna drop this series, losing 3 of the next 4 against a team with no legs and an injured superstar, that just needed double OT at home to beat us on our worst night with Giannis shooting 5/1000 then nothing I say will comfort you. This series isn't in jeopardy. They just took an uppercut from a very good but inferior team. They don't have three more of those in them. The Bucks are fine.

 

I do think we'll win the series. I just think it's more like a 85%-90% chance rather than the mortal lock that some seem to. I think collectively we tend to overuse the "this this and this all went wrong and we still almost won" arguments. I'm losing count of how many times we've played the "our worst night" card in the playoffs so far.

 

Each game is it's own animal. Giannis might go for 40 on Tuesday and Kawhi might go for 50 and we lose by a point. One of Giannis' best games this season, I recall, was a home loss to Philly.

 

Toronto will probably be favored to win on Tuesday, as they were today, and then if the bounces don't go your way all of the sudden you've got a best of 3. Now hopefully we can put that all to rest on Tueaday, but we take way too much for granted against a 58 win team. Leonard could go MJ on us the rest of the series, we just don't know. Again, I do think we'll win this series. We just seem to assume an awful lot for a team that hasn't been to the Finals in almost 50 years. We're not the Warriors -- not yet anyway.

 

 

Well, it's only been two times really that we've talked about everything going wrong, Game 1 vs Boston and then last night.

 

Second, I hate when people talk about the history of a franchise when the oldest player on the team wasn't even alive when this run of 50 years started. It has nothing to do with Giannis or Lopez or anyone. And would it somehow be more likely if Big Dog hits that shot in the last seconds vs Philly and the Bucks get routed by the Lakers? Then it'd be a team that hasn't been there in 18 years.

 

 

I would agree, we are probably a bit TOO confident. The Raptors are a really good team and Kawhi is a freakishly talented player. I think the very few small warts Giannis does still have in his game can be exposed with Kawhi on him and if Middelton isn't hitting his shots, things could go the wrong way. 85-90 pct confidence though is pretty damn high. And Warrented given how the stars had to align for Toronto to beat us.(and Kawhi getting away with the double dribble to essentially put the game away)

 

I've seen crazier things happen in sports. But Toronto winning 3 of the next 4 with 2 in Milwaukee seems unlikely to me.

 

I also think it's unlikely, and that's why I said 85-90%. I agree, still pretty good.

 

When I speak in historical context I am comparing us to a team like the Warriors who have been there, done that so much in the last few years. Even if they get down -- to have been in this spot so many times recently. It doesn't matter to them or anyone else if they have homecourt, or what seed they are. Confidence wise, comparing the two teams, that part of it DOES matter. It gives them a psychological edge that we (and all others) just don't have yet. I'm not saying that the Bucks teams of the 70s have anything to do with this one.

[patrickgpe]

just as in game 1, the bucks played horribly, but this time they lost, but the Raptors really extended themselves to get the win. Leonard had to play 53 minutes on a bad knee.

 

I expected the bucks to lose last night and win tomorrow and thursday. vegas did too, bucks were +3 last night and are -2.5 tomorrow. I would expect the bucks to play much better tomorrow, just like they did in game 2 after 3 quarters of a bad game in game 1.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'll Paul Pierce this one again. I would consider the Raptors winning this series as impressive as the year the Cavs beat the Warriors. Maybe even more impressive, given that there is no Kevin Love and no Kyrie on that roster. That team is badly out-manned, and short of Leonard putting forth an absolutely epic series that people are still talking about 20 years from now, there is no way that team has the legs to win 3/4.

 

The Bucks will keep coming with fresh rotations and launching threes and the fatigue is going to be a huge factor. This thing is one Middleton 3 from a sweep.

[FVBrewerFan]

Unpopular opinion, I'm beginning to wonder if Giannis is ready to put this team on his back and win a title. I realize he doesn't have to be that guy who scores 40 a night, the way this team is built. But his lack of a jumper may come back to haunt the Bucks. Look at any other elite player, they can beat you any way possible. Shooting, driving, drawing a foul, etc.

 

Giannis hasn't adjusted very well to teams packing the paint. Without a jump shot, it's going to be tough fr him to score, tougher still with his decline at the free throw line. There's enough talent around him to get past Toronto- I'm more concerned about the Warriors. That series will be tough enough, and if Giannis has to really struggle to get his 20-24 points a game, it could bog down the offense.

 

All too often he's standing there thinking what to do, giving the defense time to prepare. I really believe he has to think of himself as a distributor for at least the first quarter. Let the game flow for a while and then see if he can find some creases to exploit. And he just has to be better from the line.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Giannis, and he's an outstanding player. I've gone back and forth on how important a jumper is for him, but the playoffs may be showing that part of his game is important.

[tmwiese55]

That's fair. However, GSW is less equipped to guard him than Bos and Tor. Their really only big guy defender is Draymond and he's like 6'7. Tor has 3 big bodies plus Kawhi to throw at him. GSW has no big guys and they play wide open court where Giannis feasts.

[PinaMadness]

Unpopular opinion, I'm beginning to wonder if Giannis is ready to put this team on his back and win a title. I realize he doesn't have to be that guy who scores 40 a night, the way this team is built. But his lack of a jumper may come back to haunt the Bucks. Look at any other elite player, they can beat you any way possible. Shooting, driving, drawing a foul, etc.

 

Giannis hasn't adjusted very well to teams packing the paint. Without a jump shot, it's going to be tough fr him to score, tougher still with his decline at the free throw line. There's enough talent around him to get past Toronto- I'm more concerned about the Warriors. That series will be tough enough, and if Giannis has to really struggle to get his 20-24 points a game, it could bog down the offense.

 

All too often he's standing there thinking what to do, giving the defense time to prepare. I really believe he has to think of himself as a distributor for at least the first quarter. Let the game flow for a while and then see if he can find some creases to exploit. And he just has to be better from the line.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Giannis, and he's an outstanding player. I've gone back and forth on how important a jumper is for him, but the playoffs may be showing that part of his game is important.

I don't think it's unpopular. It's a valid point. Toronto had an excellent game plan for defending him going with the box and 1 and also double teaming him. I hope Bud can make the adjustment to get him back scoring 25-30 again. But why would Toronto change the game plan against him when what they did worked flawlessly? Until he develops a jump shot, and I'm not as sure as others he ever will, he's going to be easy to defend. He's also not a great ball handler. You can see that on the double teams and when he plows his way to the basket hoping he at least gets fouled. Sometimes he looks like a fish out of water when he does that.

[Pugger]

Unpopular opinion, I'm beginning to wonder if Giannis is ready to put this team on his back and win a title. I realize he doesn't have to be that guy who scores 40 a night, the way this team is built. But his lack of a jumper may come back to haunt the Bucks. Look at any other elite player, they can beat you any way possible. Shooting, driving, drawing a foul, etc.

 

Giannis hasn't adjusted very well to teams packing the paint. Without a jump shot, it's going to be tough fr him to score, tougher still with his decline at the free throw line. There's enough talent around him to get past Toronto- I'm more concerned about the Warriors. That series will be tough enough, and if Giannis has to really struggle to get his 20-24 points a game, it could bog down the offense.

 

All too often he's standing there thinking what to do, giving the defense time to prepare. I really believe he has to think of himself as a distributor for at least the first quarter. Let the game flow for a while and then see if he can find some creases to exploit. And he just has to be better from the line.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Giannis, and he's an outstanding player. I've gone back and forth on how important a jumper is for him, but the playoffs may be showing that part of his game is important.

 

Giannus might not be ready to put the team on his back mainly because we forget how young he is. It would be a plus if he could hit a jumper but his free throwing issues might be a bigger problem than that right now. He can draw fouls like crazy but if was more efficient at this he would be an even bigger headache for the rest of the league.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

He's not going to be that guy until he has a better mid range shot. Because if the paint is sealed off and he doesn't have Middleton or George Hill bailing him out, he can't take over a game the way KD can. Giannis is the MVP but if you are making a team to win one game who do you pick first? I don't think anybody picks Giannis. I don't think it's unpopular at all. I think most people see it that way. But the other valid point is that he may not have to be that guy on this team because he's surrounded with shooters.

[homer]

If he ever develops an outside shot he might be MVP.

[lcbj68c]

I'm shocked for all the talk about depth and "tired" on here over the past week, that the Bucks wouldn't be the prevailing team in a contest that went to double OT. I still don't think the Raptors should beat the Bucks 4 of 5, but my butt pucker meter has risen this morning.

[owbc]

I'm shocked for all the talk about depth and "tired" on here over the past week, that the Bucks wouldn't be the prevailing team in a contest that went to double OT. I still don't think the Raptors should beat the Bucks 4 of 5, but my butt pucker meter has risen this morning.

 

Game 4 is a big one--was that the best the Raptors have to offer or can they sustain the momentum? I suspect not but thy seemed energized by the home fans.

 

Meanwhile the Warriors have cemented their status as favorites...

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Seemed like every game I was checking the Warriors score to see them down by 18 and then I'd get an alert an hour later that they won. You're never safe with those guys.

[coolhandluke121]

I don't agree at all that Giannis can't carry a team because he can't shoot. That's like saying Shaq couldn't shoot. There's no law that says you have to be a great hero-ball scorer all over the court to be the best player in the league. If you draw double and triple teams and kick it out, you've done your job. That's just as valuable as scoring it yourself. There's never going to be a time where the league decides Giannis has to score it himself more in those situations.

 

If anything, Giannis needs to make sure he never listens to the people who say "you have to take over and score more" because that's where he gets into real trouble, forcing the issue instead of trusting his teammates. When there's that many defenders near the paint because of you, you're basically already carrying the team on offense even if you don't score a single point. If defenses want to let Milwaukee's shooters get open 3's all day, let them. We've already seen that lead to one of the best offenses in the league all season.

 

If there's a complaint about offense, it should be on the shooters. I know the team's percentages are good, but if you consider how many wide open looks they get, it's actually not that impressive. Brogdon, Snell, Hill, and Ersan keep their percentages up by only taking wide open shots right at the arc. Lopez and Mirotic will shoot deep ones, but not at a great percentage. Khris doesn't do a good job working for open 3's off the ball. Only Mirotic and Khris have a quick release. I mean guess Bledsoe has a quick release too, but what good is that?

 

Giannis is the best player in the world right now. It's very rare to have someone that good on both ends of the court. Complaining about his inability to score every time in isoball possessions is especially odd at a time when we're seeing once again what the Warriors can do without Durant, who is one of the guys some people are still suggesting is better than Giannis for iso scoring reasons even though the Warriors hardly miss him (and even though he doesn't have to deal with nearly the same defensive attention Giannis does). There's nothing wrong with having to trust your teammates and keep moving the ball. In fact, it's usually better than falling into the trap of watching an iso scorer go to work all the time. This focus on a guy's isolation scoring ability is exactly the kind of thinking that leads people to assume Boston is the odds-on favorite to win the East because " OMG they added Kyrie to a team that already made the ECF without him the year before!!"

 

Games are not an all-star game skills competitions. Giannis is like Shaq, easily the most effective player in the league right now and one of the most effective of all time regardless of shooting.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Shaq couldn't shoot though. That was masked by Kobe and Wade or he probably would have gotten about as far as Dwight Howard.

 

What the Warriors are doing without Durant is completely match-up driven. The struggle they had against LeBron vs. what happened when they got KD says enough. The "Warriors are more efficient without Durant" mantra floating around needs to stop.

 

KD being hurt for a week or two != what they've done with him for two years, which is totally embarrass the league. I would rather have Giannis but like I said, if I'm picking guys to win a game tonight, I'm taking KD before him.

[coolhandluke121]

Shaq couldn't shoot though. That was masked by Kobe and Wade or he probably would have gotten about as far as Dwight Howard.

 

 

There's always somebody to mask deficiencies though, although in the case of an in-the-paint scorer like Giannis or Shaq, I wouldn't even call it a deficiency - it's just recognizing that that's not their job. There's no way they would ever get good enough at shooting to make it a better option than scoring inside or kicking it out to a guy whose job is shooting, so it's a moot point. And that's what it really comes down to - playing your role and doing your job. It's just not Giannis's job to shoot, nor was it Shaq's. I'll grant that ft's are a slight issue in Giannis's case and a bigger one in Shaq's, but not nearly enough to offset for all the huge advantages Giannis and Shaq have over guys like Harden and Durant in so many other aspects of the game.

 

It's just over-valuing isolation one-on-one scoring, which has been going on since as long as I've been a fan. Reminds me of all those times Lebron would kick it out to an open 3-point shooter instead of forcing up a bad shot against a double-team when he was young and people would say "see - he doesn't have a killer instinct like Kobe!" Even though he actually has much better clutch stats and his teams are much more efficient in the clutch than Kobe - especially when Kobe didn't have Phil coaching him and was recklessly chucking at will. There's no law that a guy has to take over and hog the ball in crucial moments, no reason that you can't continue to play good, fundamental basketball and move the ball to get the best shot just because it's a tense moment. Who carried the 2014 Spurs (high scorer 16.7 ppg) against the Heatles? Who carried the 2004 Pistons (high scorer: 17.6 ppg) against the Lakers? Why didn't the teams with the superstar iso scorers win? It's actually very regressive to think and play that way. When Phil was reining Kobe in, how many times did we see Fisher or Horry hit the big shot? They were open because of Shaq and Kobe and they did their job. It didn't matter if Shaq or Kobe scored, it mattered if the Lakers scored. Phil understood that and so does Bud. I think Giannis does too, but he has to be even better and make quicker kick-out decisions when the paint is completely walled off. I think he will.

 

I think Giannis could average 40 ppg and and 10 apg if he had joined the Warriors and been surround by those shooters instead of Durant, and don't even get me started on the defensive difference. And I don't think there's any way Durant would have carried this team to 60 wins this year.

[GAME05]

The Bucks didn't move around much on offense two nights ago. They're so used to Giannis finishing off the play and going ISO (well, him against three guys) and two nights ago they just stood in place and watched. Teams are walling off the middle even more against him, and usually it's four guys selling out to defend him. The shooters just need to do a better job of moving around into passing lanes. Giannis is an ok passer, and that he didn't have a really high assist number considering his few shots speaks more to the other players not trying to get themselves open. Considering the defense that Giannis sees, there's really no reason a guy like Middleton shouldn't be shooting nine 3s a game.

 

Now and again the Bucks have games where they're just complacent, and two nights ago was an example. You can get away with it against mediocre defensive teams, but you're not going to against high-IQ defensive teams like Toronto and San Francisco. The Bucks still succeed because Giannis and Middleton and regular-season Bledsoe are such good individual players, but that kind of style just doesn't work this deep in the playoffs.

[homer]

I thought the Bucks found a lot of driving lanes in the 4th not sure if that was an adjustment or just Toronto getting tired.