2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) [Brewers lose, 11-6 -- Rough outing for Peralta]

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Which would be the definition of up and down, no?

 

Considering the leverage situations he's being used in, it's probably more down than up, but for the most part, yeah.

[RollieTime]

Scary play there for Gray. Good thing he got his glove up in time to block it from hitting him in the head.

[82brewcrew82]

Which would be the definition of up and down, no?

 

Considering the leverage situations he's being used in, it's probably more down than up, but for the most part, yeah.

So if this is typical of his career, how can we blame the pitching coach? Does DJ now become a garbage pitching coach?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Which would be the definition of up and down, no?

 

Considering the leverage situations he's being used in, it's probably more down than up, but for the most part, yeah.

So if this is typical of his career, how can we blame the pitching coach? Does DJ now become a garbage pitching coach?

 

Of course not. And regarding Hook, a lot of these young guys flourished under his teaching in the minors. I can't imagine he started following a different protocol once he was named the MLB pitching coach. I guess at the end of the day, you just got to chalk it up to "that's baseball".

[82brewcrew82]

Of course not. And regarding Hook, a lot of these young guys flourished under his teaching in the minors. I can't imagine he started following a different protocol once he was named the MLB pitching coach. I guess at the end of the day, you just got to chalk it up to "that's baseball".

Or our expectations for these guys were out of whack.

[3and2Fastball]

I'll admit I've been really down on this team in the last few weeks, however looking at the parity in the NL this season, I think they'll be in playoff contention all year. I trust they'll upgrade the pitching staff at the trade deadline (hopefully not sacrificing Hiura & Ray). Is this pitching staff frustrating? Of course, however just about every NL team has a glaring weakness at times...

[RollieTime]

Of course not. And regarding Hook, a lot of these young guys flourished under his teaching in the minors. I can't imagine he started following a different protocol once he was named the MLB pitching coach. I guess at the end of the day, you just got to chalk it up to "that's baseball".

Or our expectations for these guys were out of whack.

 

Impossible! We have 4 aces with a 5th one in Nelson returning soon!

[OldSchoolSnapper]

So just let them get beat up and live with it, playoff spot be damned? And you don't even believe any of them are aces and that's still the best course of action?

Yes

 

I would say yes, tbh, because this isn't a playoff team without wild improvement. As I said early, I don't think this roster has the horses. I think the "We're .500 despite XYZ" is going to be the season-long mantra and we'll be left with a .500 team in September.

[82brewcrew82]

I'll admit I've been really down on this team in the last few weeks, however looking at the parity in the NL this season, I think they'll be in playoff contention all year. I trust they'll upgrade the pitching staff at the trade deadline (hopefully not sacrificing Hiura & Ray). Is this pitching staff frustrating? Of course, however just about every NL team has a glaring weakness at times...

I agree. I actually think they are starting to figure out the pitching. The Anderson thing yesterday was an unfortunate bump in the road and threw some things off. The schedule is pretty ruff for another month or so but we will get our shot and the marlins and giants too.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Of course not. And regarding Hook, a lot of these young guys flourished under his teaching in the minors. I can't imagine he started following a different protocol once he was named the MLB pitching coach. I guess at the end of the day, you just got to chalk it up to "that's baseball".

Or our expectations for these guys were out of whack.

 

I'll admit, I was very bullish on Woodruff and Burnes. I expected them to be solid low to mid-3 era types. Perhaps Woody can prove to be that this year, but I haven't seen anything from Burnes that says he can be that as a starter this year.

 

I did not and have not had super high expectations regarding Peralta. He has shown just enough in his short career to make me think he may just defy my expectations, though. Obviously he's been flat out bad. That game against the Reds looks like an aberration.

 

I figured the pen would be able to pull it together and be respectable. In reality, they've had moments where they approach that. But a lot of moments where they haven't, too.

[RollieTime]

Brauny baby!

[brewers888]

In other news Cincy lost 1-0 to the Mets so another great game from what was not a good pitching staff before they stole Johnson away.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

IDK, I don't think it's a case of high expectations. I personally thought Peralta would play his way out of baseball. I just don't buy him as an MLB player. Burnes, I figured he'd last as a starter, but I was guessing he'd take lumps and finish somewhere around 4.50 as a starter. I thought Woodruff was the runaway cream of the crop, but I still figured he'd take lumps and maybe finish under 4.00 if things went right. But to have all three of them suck immediately? That's disappointing no matter who you are.

[82brewcrew82]

IDK, I don't think it's a case of high expectations. I personally thought Peralta would play his way out of baseball. I just don't buy him as an MLB player. Burnes, I figured he'd last as a starter, but I was guessing he'd take lumps and finish somewhere around 4.50 as a starter. I thought Woodruff was the runaway cream of the crop, but I still figured he'd take lumps and maybe finish under 4.00 if things went right. But to have all three of them suck immediately? That's disappointing no matter who you are.

I guess I'm not easily disappointed then.

[Underachiever]

What happened to this pitching staff? The Knebel and Jeffress injuries were huge, but this pitching staff was decent last year with virtually the same cast of characters. This year this staff is now the worst in the NL in terms of runs allowed and subtract the Mets from that equation and they are the worst by far. Hard to believe.

It's really not, though. No Miley, just added Gio. The three young guys may have been on the staff, but the are in completely new roles. After that, I see new guys Hart, Claudio, Jackson. They tried Petricka and Wilson, didn't work. Add in Wilkerson and Houser, and it doesn't feel like the same staff at all to me.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm not sure how 10.00 ERAs aren't disappointing, regardless of age or whatever. Nobody is happy they're playing the way they are.

[trwi7]

I like how Bill is counting the seconds on a slow motion replay.

[rickh150]

So it's a really silly, lazy argument IMO. There are actually things beneficial to a pitcher that a pitching coach can do that don't involve actually throwing a pitch. Coach doesn't "hit/throw/field" etc. tells us absolutely zero. You could apply this across the board to any coach/manager in every sport to hold them blameless. If you believe it, say what you really mean -- that you think coaches, managers, etc don't matter at all. We all understand that the players play the game.

 

There are things that Derek Johnson did for our pitchers -- things that we miss right now. Just because we only see the pitches thrown, doesn't mean those things aren't there. Our two best pitching prospects in years are massively failing. Not just a rough outing here or there, massively failing. It's not a one player problem, and it's absolutely fair to scrutinize the pitching coach particularly after a coaching change when these same young players performed well last season.

 

Nobody really knows what pitching coaches do.... funny to hear people pump up or put down a coach. Adambr2, What "things" are you specifically talking about? What specific "things" did Derek Johnson do so well? The media doesn't even know. Is it a program that DJ lived by? Did he teach the split/curve/change well and why is that? Did he game plan well? How so? What specifically did he do that is not being done now? Without this kind of info, we are like ESPN daily show pundits bantering about generalities and not what actually is going on. Not meaning to sound jerky, but I do....

[Surhoff5]

IDK, I don't think it's a case of high expectations. I personally thought Peralta would play his way out of baseball. I just don't buy him as an MLB player. Burnes, I figured he'd last as a starter, but I was guessing he'd take lumps and finish somewhere around 4.50 as a starter. I thought Woodruff was the runaway cream of the crop, but I still figured he'd take lumps and maybe finish under 4.00 if things went right. But to have all three of them suck immediately? That's disappointing no matter who you are.

 

I am right with you. I never believed in the Peralta hype, but always have been a huge Woodruff guy. I thought Burnes would take his lumps this year, but would be the best of the three by the end of the year and in the future. I guess Burnes still could be, but I did not expect the lumps to be this bad.

[Bulldogboy]

The shame of what has happened to this pitching staff is you could see it coming from a mile away. This team has not developed an every day starter since Galiardo. Nelson counts of course but unfortunately is injured. Letting cheap available starters like Miley go to risk it on the young guns was silly. Then the depth of the bullpen took a hit with injuries and no one of note was brought in to bolster it. I was on record as saying I would have added a reliever before the injuries because the Tyler Thonburg syndrome hits relievers every year. Anyway it's too bad. This fan base deserves better.

[Fear The Chorizo]

What happened to this pitching staff? The Knebel and Jeffress injuries were huge, but this pitching staff was decent last year with virtually the same cast of characters. This year this staff is now the worst in the NL in terms of runs allowed and subtract the Mets from that equation and they are the worst by far. Hard to believe.

It's really not, though. No Miley, just added Gio. The three young guys may have been on the staff, but the are in completely new roles. After that, I see new guys Hart, Claudio, Jackson. They tried Petricka and Wilson, didn't work. Add in Wilkerson and Houser, and it doesn't feel like the same staff at all to me.

 

Jeffress doing what he did to rightfully earn an AS team appearance during 2018's first half after Knebel hurt his hamstring was huge for their bullpen - it allowed Hader to be that 1+ IP relief ace and drastically shorten the games the Brewers were ahead or tied, giving them a crazy high win % when they were ahead after ~5IP. We often forget that despite the HR totals, Chase Anderson was solid for most of last year in a starting role. Guerra was also huge for their rotation during most of 2018. Even Suter was respectable most starts until he got injured.

 

Starting this season, Jeffress was still in extended spring training and still isn't close to the pitcher he was most of 2018, Guerra and Anderson were kicked to the pen to make room for Burnes/Peralta in the opening day rotation, and Hader is the quasi-closer who is no longer an option until most games' 8th innings due to how thin the rest of the pen appears to be. Many of the names are the same, but their roles are vastly different - this all works out much better had Peralta and Burnes not fallen on their faces as starters so far this year. The decision to roll with them in the rotation and move veteran options into bullpen roles appears to have been a mistake purely from a 'win now' mentality, at least to start this season. Granted, it may still reap longterm benefits if the young arms figure things out and improve, but only time will tell...and if Burnes/Peralta continue getting lit up, their leashes just aren't going to be very long anymore.

[82brewcrew82]

So it's a really silly, lazy argument IMO. There are actually things beneficial to a pitcher that a pitching coach can do that don't involve actually throwing a pitch. Coach doesn't "hit/throw/field" etc. tells us absolutely zero. You could apply this across the board to any coach/manager in every sport to hold them blameless. If you believe it, say what you really mean -- that you think coaches, managers, etc don't matter at all. We all understand that the players play the game.

 

There are things that Derek Johnson did for our pitchers -- things that we miss right now. Just because we only see the pitches thrown, doesn't mean those things aren't there. Our two best pitching prospects in years are massively failing. Not just a rough outing here or there, massively failing. It's not a one player problem, and it's absolutely fair to scrutinize the pitching coach particularly after a coaching change when these same young players performed well last season.

I was thinking the lazy argument was to blame the coach. Seems silly to me to blame a guy that was a major part of their development on their problems now. Give me something specific DJ was doing that Hook is not and I might consider this argument but to throw out a bunch of opinions and call the other persons argument lazy is........well lazy.

 

Seeing the pitches being thrown is the point. They continue to groove middle middle fastballs and not locate a secondary pitch. I'm pretty sure that whatever Hooks is or isn't doing it doesn't involve grooving pitches. It's a lot easier to blame the coach than it is to admit our ecpectations were out of whack and that these guy just might not be that good.

[82brewcrew82]

Perdomo doing his best to throw cold water on his expectations today.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The shame of what has happened to this pitching staff is you could see it coming from a mile away. This team has not developed an every day starter since Galiardo. Nelson counts of course but unfortunately is injured. Letting cheap available starters like Miley go to risk it on the young guns was silly. Then the depth of the bullpen took a hit with injuries and no one of note was brought in to bolster it. I was on record as saying I would have added a reliever before the injuries because the Tyler Thonburg syndrome hits relievers every year. Anyway it's too bad. This fan base deserves better.

 

I'm with you on Miley, but this is pretty revisionist. To develop young starters you have to play them in the majors. I didn't like Peralta, but it's hard to argue that at the end of last year, there wasn't reason to be optimistic about all three guys. These guys didn't come up in April, they were making meaningful contributions in a pennant race. I don't think anyone saw this kind of trouble coming. Basically it was a worst case scenario that happened. Even in my preseason nightmare, at least one guy would be a reliable starter at this point.

 

The Knebel thing sucks. The timing of it sucked worse.

[RollieTime]

Brauny baby!