2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) [Brewers lose, 11-6 -- Rough outing for Peralta]

[OldSchoolSnapper]

This game isn't over by any stretch, but even if they come back, these kinds of wins do little for my psyche. Our "out getter" cannot get clobbered in the first inning 75% of the time. I just don't think we have the horses. And signing one guy doesn't make sense to be from a cost-benefit perspective. I think the problem is a lot bigger than that.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I was optimistic. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, though. Get Freddy on the bus to San Antonio ASAP. He just isn't ready.

[brooks_quichenick]

Error for Arcia on a routine grounder, since he didn’t execute we can throw all of the blame on Carlos Subero.

[82brewcrew82]

Chris "3 run first" Hook isn't making any of his young starters look very good.

If only he could execute a pitch for them.

Part of the problem is the scouting reports and Pitch selection on hitters.

That and pitching mechanics and getting pictures to repeat release points is the main function of a pitching coach and right now our pictures mechanics are a mess and our pitch selection is a mess.

I'm seeing pitches grooved right over the middle of the plate, just like that one to Dahl. That thing was middle, middle. That has nothing to do with mechanics or pitch selection.

[Fear The Chorizo]

pitch selection is a moot point with Peralta and Burnes - they don't have effective secondary offerings and when their primary pitches (peralta - 4 and 2 seam fastball, Burnes - fastball and slider) can't be located, they're going to get crushed. That's exactly what has happened to them to date.

 

Woodruff will have the occasional blowup inning, but overall you're going to expect that from a young starter. Hopefully Chacin is turning the corner much the same way he did after last April's dreadful start. Davies has been great. Hopefully Gio gives them some consistency, also. Peralta and Burnes have been incredibly disappointing and are the reasons the staff looks horrific - aside from the Knebel and Wahl injuries in late Spring Training.

[Jopal78]

What happened to this pitching staff? The Knebel and Jeffress injuries were huge, but this pitching staff was decent last year with virtually the same cast of characters. This year this staff is now the worst in the NL in terms of runs allowed and subtract the Mets from that equation and they are the worst by far. Hard to believe.

[yourout]

Error for Arcia on a routine grounder, since he didn’t execute we can throw all of the blame on Carlos Subero.

 

Really? Is that all you got?

[3and2Fastball]

Hey at least only 6 of those runs are earned!

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Error for Arcia on a routine grounder, since he didn’t execute we can throw all of the blame on Carlos Subero.

 

Really? Is that all you got?

 

I thought it was a pretty solid point. Coaches coach, and it's up to the players to execute on that coaching. Blaming a pitching coach in periods like this is almost always a scapegoat, but a move like that has been effective in the past with other teams. It seems like whatever turnover and idea Counsell is trying, nothing is working. It is totally up to the players to execute, but at some point, when you have enough failure, you have to start questioning the plan. I don't know what the answer is, and I'm glad I don't have to make it. It does suck to witness it, though.

[brooks_quichenick]

Error for Arcia on a routine grounder, since he didn’t execute we can throw all of the blame on Carlos Subero.

 

Really? Is that all you got?

 

If the pitchers making stupid mistakes means Chris Hook needs to go, then why wouldn’t this track?

[82brewcrew82]

Error for Arcia on a routine grounder, since he didn’t execute we can throw all of the blame on Carlos Subero.

 

Really? Is that all you got?

 

I thought it was a pretty solid point. Coaches coach, and it's up to the players to execute on that coaching. Blaming a pitching coach in periods like this is almost always a scapegoat, but a move like that has been effective in the past with other teams. It seems like whatever turnover and idea Counsell is trying, nothing is working. It is totally up to the players to execute, but at some point, when you have enough failure, you have to start questioning the plan. I don't know what the answer is, and I'm glad I don't have to make it. It does suck to witness it, though.

The difference here is that Hook had a hand in the development of all these guys. Was he fine when they were minor league studs but now, all of a sudden, he is a detriment? Makes zero sense.

[Ennder]

Dana LeVangie led the Red Sox rotation to a world series win last season as the pitching coach finishing 3rd in the AL in ERA for starters. Last time I looked the Red Sox had the worst starter ERA in the AL this season and that was like 2 days ago, Baltimore may have passed them at this point. This is just baseball, you can't just blame it on a new pitching coach because you want a scapegoat. The young pitchers are not locating their pitches well at all and that happens sometimes with young pitchers. Pitching coaches matter for sure but nowhere near to the extent you are trying to make it seem.

 

Also trying to judge pitchers in April or even early May is a fool's errand. A lot of guys off to horrid starts will look like all stars by the break. It takes some guys a while to get their control. (this is for all teams not just saying for our pitchers).

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

The difference here is that Hook had a hand in the development of all these guys. Was he fine when they were minor league studs but now, all of a sudden, he is a detriment? Makes zero sense.

 

Oh I definitely put more of the blame on the players themselves. I guess its just rare that you see quite frankly a whole staff just get so bad seemingly all of a sudden. Like I said, I'm grasping at straws to figure out why. Perhaps there is no specific answer.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Are the pitchers just young or are they also not very good? I was young once too and I probably also couldn't get MLB hitters out.

[82brewcrew82]

Are the pitchers just young or are they also not very good? I was young once too and I probably also couldn't get MLB hitters out.

Only one way to know for sure and sending them to the minors or the bullpen ain't it.

[adambr2]

So it's a really silly, lazy argument IMO. There are actually things beneficial to a pitcher that a pitching coach can do that don't involve actually throwing a pitch. Coach doesn't "hit/throw/field" etc. tells us absolutely zero. You could apply this across the board to any coach/manager in every sport to hold them blameless. If you believe it, say what you really mean -- that you think coaches, managers, etc don't matter at all. We all understand that the players play the game.

 

There are things that Derek Johnson did for our pitchers -- things that we miss right now. Just because we only see the pitches thrown, doesn't mean those things aren't there. Our two best pitching prospects in years are massively failing. Not just a rough outing here or there, massively failing. It's not a one player problem, and it's absolutely fair to scrutinize the pitching coach particularly after a coaching change when these same young players performed well last season.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Are the pitchers just young or are they also not very good? I was young once too and I probably also couldn't get MLB hitters out.

Only one way to know for sure and sending them to the minors or the bullpen ain't it.

 

But how do you determine it then? Say you stick with Freddy in the rotation, and he continues to get rocked in three out of every four starts, but then throws a gem in the 4th one. Is that enough? All these guys are young, and everyone expected bumps in the road. I don't think anyone expected the whole highway to be full of potholes, though.

[82brewcrew82]

The difference here is that Hook had a hand in the development of all these guys. Was he fine when they were minor league studs but now, all of a sudden, he is a detriment? Makes zero sense.

 

Oh I definitely put more of the blame on the players themselves. I guess its just rare that you see quite frankly a whole staff just get so bad seemingly all of a sudden. Like I said, I'm grasping at straws to figure out why. Perhaps there is no specific answer.

That's hyperbole. The young starters are struggling as they sometimes tend to do and a few marginal bullpen arms have been up and down but who has been that bad outside of that?

[82brewcrew82]

Are the pitchers just young or are they also not very good? I was young once too and I probably also couldn't get MLB hitters out.

Only one way to know for sure and sending them to the minors or the bullpen ain't it.

 

But how do you determine it then? Say you stick with Freddy in the rotation, and he continues to get rocked in three out of every four starts, but then throws a gem in the 4th one. Is that enough? All these guys are young, and everyone expected bumps in the road. I don't think anyone expected the whole highway to be full of potholes, though.

That's on you then if what is happening doesn't fit your expectations. None of these guys was going to be a bona fide ace. That was never their pedigree. So yeah, let them get beat up and live with it.

[adambr2]

The difference here is that Hook had a hand in the development of all these guys. Was he fine when they were minor league studs but now, all of a sudden, he is a detriment? Makes zero sense.

 

Oh I definitely put more of the blame on the players themselves. I guess its just rare that you see quite frankly a whole staff just get so bad seemingly all of a sudden. Like I said, I'm grasping at straws to figure out why. Perhaps there is no specific answer.

That's hyperbole. The young starters are struggling as they sometimes tend to do and a few marginal bullpen arms have been up and down but who has been that bad outside of that?

 

Barnes and Williams have been completely wretched. Not up and down.

[adambr2]

So just let them get beat up and live with it, playoff spot be damned? And you don't even believe any of them are aces and that's still the best course of action?

[82brewcrew82]

Barnes and Williams have been completely wretched. Not up and down.

That's not true of Barnes at all. Williams only has 4.1 innings.

[82brewcrew82]

So just let them get beat up and live with it, playoff spot be damned? And you don't even believe any of them are aces and that's still the best course of action?

Yes

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Barnes and Williams have been completely wretched. Not up and down.

That's not true of Barnes at all. Williams only has 4.1 innings.

 

Barnes has gotten rocked with a couple horrid outings that have skewed his numbers, but has looked good at times, too. Story of his career.

[82brewcrew82]

Barnes and Williams have been completely wretched. Not up and down.

That's not true of Barnes at all. Williams only has 4.1 innings.

 

Barnes has gotten rocked with a couple horrid outings that have skewed his numbers, but has looked good at times, too. Story of his career.

Which would be the definition of up and down, no?