Packers roster analysis, post draft moves/needs?

[HiAndTight]

 

Blake Martinez is a very solid, well above average inside backer.

Not sure i would go that high on him. Maybe a tick above average but is really terrible at getting off blocks.

 

Good speed but once someone gets his hands on him it's game over.

 

 

That's pretty standard for the NFL today. You can't be both a big, physical LB'er who can blow up guards and a guy who can cover ground. He may be one of the best 4-5 in the NFL at slipping blocks though and if not, he's definitely among the best at shooting the gap and making plays.

 

But the days of NFL LB'ers taking on linemen and then shedding them is over. Urlacher was terrible when it came to that and he's one of the top 3-4 MLB'ers in the last 25-30 years. There are only so many Luke Kuechly's out there.

[homer]

I think Josh Jones would be ok in the right scheme. He just doesn't fit what they want to do.

[HiAndTight]

I think Josh Jones would be ok in the right scheme. He just doesn't fit what they want to do.

 

 

What type of system do you think he would be good in then?

 

I don't think the system is the issue with him or his physical ability. I think he's just not smart enough or at least he's not instinctive enough to be a good NFL player.

[TJseven7]

It's crazy that borderline NFL player Josh Jones is publicly asking for a trade. Perception and reality are not strong with him apparently.

 

As he says, "No hold MY beer" to Thon Maker.

 

Savage and Amos are a monumental upgrade. If Jones doesn't move to LILB he won't play. He probably needs to move to LILB because he's not good enough in coverage for the current NFL game at SS.

 

The defense actually looks good now, even if I'm not enthralled with Gary. It'd be bordering on elite if it wasn't for fact that our interior LBs are terrible.

 

 

I don't think Jones was ever expected to play or start in the base at MLB'er.

 

We need more depth at LB'er and Owen Burks is totally unproven, but he flashed a bit last year.

 

Blake Martinez is a very solid, well above average inside backer.

 

Jones was never expected to play LB but Kyzir White is the same size as is Onwausor and Barron. That's the new NFL. You have to be able to cover and range with your LBs or they can't be on the field. Old era sure, but its fallen from 2 down thumper to barely 1 down thumper.

 

Our LBs are terrible if they don't get marked improvement from Burks or get something useful out of Jones at LB.

 

Blake Martinez is not very solid. He is a poor player in a catch all position who makes a lot of tackles because he's consistently beat. He gets run past in coverage and as stated above sifts sheds and scrapes poorly. It's basically this eras AJ Hawk and he was pretty poor. The 1 position this defense lacks currently is a high quality do it all LB. 100% of snaps because you are the best they have doesn't mean he's any better than mediocre.

[TJseven7]

 

Blake Martinez is a very solid, well above average inside backer.

Not sure i would go that high on him. Maybe a tick above average but is really terrible at getting off blocks.

 

Good speed but once someone gets his hands on him it's game over.

 

 

That's pretty standard for the NFL today. You can't be both a big, physical LB'er who can blow up guards and a guy who can cover ground. He may be one of the best 4-5 in the NFL at slipping blocks though and if not, he's definitely among the best at shooting the gap and making plays.

 

But the days of NFL LB'ers taking on linemen and then shedding them is over. Urlacher was terrible when it came to that and he's one of the top 3-4 MLB'ers in the last 25-30 years. There are only so many Luke Kuechly's out there.

 

The only thing Blake rates highly at is tackle numbers because he's in a catch all position. He doesn't even have good speed. He sucks in coverage, he can't handle a RB. No one blows up guards anymore as you say but don't pretend Blake can cover ground. Covering ground involves scraping over blocks and navigating traffic. He doesn't do that well. Even small guys are capable of doing that well if they are athletic. I wanted Devin Bush beyond badly and he's small but he does that exceptionally well. Blake is no where near the top 5 in slipping blocks. Don't ever talk about Urlacher or Kuechley in the vacinity of Martinez. Those are the grail and I swear at Martinez every Sunday. The entire defensive scheme folded in the last year mainly because him and the Ss don't cut it.

[TJseven7]

I think Josh Jones would be ok in the right scheme. He just doesn't fit what they want to do.

 

 

What type of system do you think he would be good in then?

 

I don't think the system is the issue with him or his physical ability. I think he's just not smart enough or at least he's not instinctive enough to be a good NFL player.

 

Mark Barron wasn't either. That's how I'd use him.

Bucannon isn't as well. Again, that's how I'd use him.

 

Low responsibility, man keys on backs and TEs, fire him through gaps. No thinking, no reading, task oriented. Attack this or pursue. He is dumb, and lacks instinct, so use him as an athletic pawn. Think back to when he played a rolled up SS versus Cincinnati a few years ago. They nearly put him at OLB and he destroyed the LT with sheer speed and athleticism. Had a big game and 2 sacks. That's who he is. It's an athletic talent who doesn't think. You can hide that at buck in this system and you can send him often from that spot. The teams sliding to more of a 5-2 anyway so the OLB will be in more of a contain set to free up the interior to rush. He can get sent from buck often. In the nickle 4-2 look again you could use him as a blitzer or a spy or a guy who simply man locks the RB. Easy jobs that play to his athletic ability and don't require the nuance. Rapp from Washington is much the same guy as well and that's what the Rams took him to do. Replace Barron. It works. You can run a 6'2 220 LB in the base. Especially with Clark and Daniels (Adams) and OLBs who are 275 and set the edge. There's a lot less traffic for LBs in that look but more importantly its harder to turn the edge so pursuit capabilities can be hidden due to delays caused and Ss can fill.

 

If can an just disrupt and pursue from that spot he'll slow down the play enough for Savage and Amos to clean it up. Both Ss should have a monster season tackle wise and the scheme should delay the O enough for those tackles to be reasonably close to the LOS.

[PeaveyFury]

 

The only thing Blake rates highly at is tackle numbers because he's in a catch all position. He doesn't even have good speed. He sucks in coverage, he can't handle a RB. No one blows up guards anymore as you say but don't pretend Blake can cover ground. Covering ground involves scraping over blocks and navigating traffic. He doesn't do that well. Even small guys are capable of doing that well if they are athletic. I wanted Devin Bush beyond badly and he's small but he does that exceptionally well. Blake is no where near the top 5 in slipping blocks. Don't ever talk about Urlacher or Kuechley in the vacinity of Martinez. Those are the grail and I swear at Martinez every Sunday. The entire defensive scheme folded in the last year mainly because him and the Ss don't cut it.

 

I think this is mostly personal opinion rather than fact. PFF has ranked Martinez as a high quality LB both of the last two seasons. I know that's not the end-all, but his actual game performance is being independently rated very well.

[TJseven7]

 

The only thing Blake rates highly at is tackle numbers because he's in a catch all position. He doesn't even have good speed. He sucks in coverage, he can't handle a RB. No one blows up guards anymore as you say but don't pretend Blake can cover ground. Covering ground involves scraping over blocks and navigating traffic. He doesn't do that well. Even small guys are capable of doing that well if they are athletic. I wanted Devin Bush beyond badly and he's small but he does that exceptionally well. Blake is no where near the top 5 in slipping blocks. Don't ever talk about Urlacher or Kuechley in the vacinity of Martinez. Those are the grail and I swear at Martinez every Sunday. The entire defensive scheme folded in the last year mainly because him and the Ss don't cut it.

 

I think this is mostly personal opinion rather than fact. PFF has ranked Martinez as a high quality LB both of the last two seasons. I know that's not the end-all, but his actual game performance is being independently rated very well.

 

Some people scream at PFF for errors some see it as the bible. They do good work but they have a grade volatility of 5 points high or low and then they tend to get a little stats biased. They also grade Schobert highly which shows they have a type more than they grade accurately. If you are a consistent volume tackler then they will grade you high despite other factors.

 

If you want to call him average go ahead. I don't see him being an average player and the main reason they are inflated is that they struggle when grading range. I've seen LBs get a great coverage grade because they do well within their tiny little box they occupy who are consistently beaten in coverage range. Blake is one of those. They reward players too much for not missing tackles and downgrade players for missing tackles that most wouldn't have the range to attempt. If you want to play the cross sports reference game, Yuni fielding SS well with no range vs Arica's brilliant range and some bonehead mistakes. They'd grade Yuni as the better SS. PFF will get there but its not quite there yet.

 

To tagline this... I follow this league at an insane level. Have for 20 years including coaching staff duties during my undergrad, being in film rooms with D1 schools and coaching conferences. I like baseball and root for the bucks but I follow every NFL team through every single system hire, FA and draft pick like its my career. I profit off it. I do not speak in personal opinion because I have a reputation at stake. I know, I'm correct or I don't speak. I say what the film shows. You can call it personal opinion if you like, but it's accurate.

[LouisEly]

If you want to call him average go ahead. I don't see him being an average player and the main reason they are inflated is that they struggle when grading range.

Which ILBs in the NFL are better? Which other ones have you seen play as much as Martinez and can base this off of?

 

One of the things that bugs me among the fan boards I browse is when a person claims a player to be better/worse than average, but only watches that team and rarely any others. They expect a player to be above average only if they execute every single play, but the reality is that most players on other teams make just as many mistakes if not more.

[TJseven7]

If you want to call him average go ahead. I don't see him being an average player and the main reason they are inflated is that they struggle when grading range.

Which ILBs in the NFL are better? Which other ones have you seen play as much as Martinez and can base this off of?

 

One of the things that bugs me among the fan boards I browse is when a person claims a player to be better/worse than average, but only watches that team and rarely any others. They expect a player to be above average only if they execute every single play, but the reality is that most players on other teams make just as many mistakes if not more.

 

I watch the 5 on TV every week then watch a half dozen other games during the week on re-airs. I'm not watching just the Packers.

 

What do you define as ILB? 3-4 inside LBs and Mikes, only mikes or all non-edge LBs.

[PeaveyFury]

If you want to call him average go ahead.

 

I called him above average actually, and will stand solidly by that. You're comparing him directly to HOF'ers, which seems a bit more unreasonable. He's not at that level, clearly, but he's an above-average LB at this point, IMO.

 

And regarding the other stuff, the 'I know the game better than others' stuff generally doesn't fly with me, whether valid or not. It certainly can frame your viewpoints, but it's unlikely to make me and probably many others take you or whoever more seriously, if for no other reason than it's unverifiable. Too many instances of stuff like that not ending up true here over our many years for me to put much weight on that, whether your situation is legit or not. No offense intended, just IMO.

[TJseven7]

If you want to call him average go ahead.

 

I called him above average actually, and will stand solidly by that. You're comparing him directly to HOF'ers, which seems a bit more unreasonable. He's not at that level, clearly, but he's an above-average LB at this point, IMO.

 

And regarding the other stuff, the 'I know the game better than others' stuff generally doesn't fly with me, whether valid or not. It certainly can frame your viewpoints, but it's unlikely to make me and probably many others take you or whoever more seriously, if for no other reason than it's unverifiable. Too many instances of stuff like that not ending up true here over our many years for me to put much weight on that, whether your situation is legit or not. No offense intended, just IMO.

 

I didn't compare him to HOF'ers. I asked someone else to please not put them in the same sentence as Martinez. I get the verification issue, by all means be skeptical.

 

Calling someone above average I see as a reference point issue. As a tackler, in his consistency and in his durability he is above average. His instincts, range and basically all the physical asks of the position he is below. His hand work, a giant pet peeve of mine, is below average. If its not down hill there is a lack of suddenness. Basically he does a mediocre job very consistently. There are a number of LBs who outclass him easily and a long list who will when you factor in their range and instincts. The question I ask PFF and others need to consider more, is what is the role of LBs in this current era of the NFL. We don't funnel to thumpers anymore. The job of the ILBs is now the same as the old school FS but on a different level of the field. Your job is to stay free, flow, and erase the gaps in the front that their OL is able to force. In coverage, mark diversity and range. Shooting a gap is flashy and a plus but can't come at the expense of losing your assignments due to a lack of range. (which PFF has a hard time grading properly) Another question is, "is above average a grade or a versus others comparison, and how far does that list extend." There are about 160 non-edge LBs in the game. If you think Martinez is top 80, I can't disagree. 80 LBs don't play the snaps of a starter though. Above average for a starter, I can't agree with that. Old school LB appeal but he struggles in the ask of the GB defense. The 3-4 specifically has struggled as offenses continued to spread out further. All you have to do is look at Pittsburgh after the lost the erasing abilities of Shazier. Their defense dramatically weakened when they went from having that 1 stud to having LBs who rival GBs. Rams went tiny with Littleton and Barron. The Chargers are a sliver away from a 4 S base set. It's the present for many teams and every teams future. Blake isn't part of that.

 

Last year some people loved Tremaine Edmunds. This year those people love Devin White. I was and am over the moon about Smith LVE and Bush. Hell, I'd rather have Tranquil than Martinez. It's the LBs who flow freely and cover space on feel that are above average to great.

 

A good way to explain it just hit me. If GB had Martinez and Kyzir White or Martinez and Tranquil the latter in both cases would be the better LB. Blake should and would play 66% of snaps which would be a better suited role for him. If they Kyzir or Tranquil played 67% on 2nd and 3rd down vs Blake's 67% on 1st and 2nd I'd value the coverage backer higher even if they were equals. It's a harder job and harder to find talent. Same way run stuffer DTs are dime a dozen but pass rushers are valued higher. Those who can do both are the stars.

 

I struggle to call any LB above average when Josh Bynes, who is currently a FA and would come in easily under 2 million dollars, would improve upon Martinez results in the defense. I'd be very excited to see GB add him and lessen the demand on Martinez but Bynes looks like one of the quality NFL players who is going to fall through the cracks this offseason.

[HiAndTight]

I think Josh Jones would be ok in the right scheme. He just doesn't fit what they want to do.

 

 

What type of system do you think he would be good in then?

 

I don't think the system is the issue with him or his physical ability. I think he's just not smart enough or at least he's not instinctive enough to be a good NFL player.

 

Mark Barron wasn't either. That's how I'd use him.

Bucannon isn't as well. Again, that's how I'd use him.

 

Low responsibility, man keys on backs and TEs, fire him through gaps. No thinking, no reading, task oriented. Attack this or pursue. He is dumb, and lacks instinct, so use him as an athletic pawn. Think back to when he played a rolled up SS versus Cincinnati a few years ago. They nearly put him at OLB and he destroyed the LT with sheer speed and athleticism. Had a big game and 2 sacks. That's who he is. It's an athletic talent who doesn't think. You can hide that at buck in this system and you can send him often from that spot. The teams sliding to more of a 5-2 anyway so the OLB will be in more of a contain set to free up the interior to rush. He can get sent from buck often. In the nickle 4-2 look again you could use him as a blitzer or a spy or a guy who simply man locks the RB. Easy jobs that play to his athletic ability and don't require the nuance. Rapp from Washington is much the same guy as well and that's what the Rams took him to do. Replace Barron. It works. You can run a 6'2 220 LB in the base. Especially with Clark and Daniels (Adams) and OLBs who are 275 and set the edge. There's a lot less traffic for LBs in that look but more importantly its harder to turn the edge so pursuit capabilities can be hidden due to delays caused and Ss can fill.

 

If can an just disrupt and pursue from that spot he'll slow down the play enough for Savage and Amos to clean it up. Both Ss should have a monster season tackle wise and the scheme should delay the O enough for those tackles to be reasonably close to the LOS.

 

 

I was asking Homer because he didn't believe he could play in this system. I repeatedly said he'd be fine in sub packages playing at LB'er, in fact I mentioned both the former safeties you did as a point of reference.

 

I don't believe you use him in your base D, but we run a our base 34 so rarely that it's not a big concern.

[HiAndTight]

 

 

That's pretty standard for the NFL today. You can't be both a big, physical LB'er who can blow up guards and a guy who can cover ground. He may be one of the best 4-5 in the NFL at slipping blocks though and if not, he's definitely among the best at shooting the gap and making plays.

 

But the days of NFL LB'ers taking on linemen and then shedding them is over. Urlacher was terrible when it came to that and he's one of the top 3-4 MLB'ers in the last 25-30 years. There are only so many Luke Kuechly's out there.

 

The only thing Blake rates highly at is tackle numbers because he's in a catch all position. He doesn't even have good speed. He sucks in coverage, he can't handle a RB. No one blows up guards anymore as you say but don't pretend Blake can cover ground. Covering ground involves scraping over blocks and navigating traffic. He doesn't do that well. Even small guys are capable of doing that well if they are athletic. I wanted Devin Bush beyond badly and he's small but he does that exceptionally well. Blake is no where near the top 5 in slipping blocks. Don't ever talk about Urlacher or Kuechley in the vacinity of Martinez. Those are the grail and I swear at Martinez every Sunday. The entire defensive scheme folded in the last year mainly because him and the Ss don't cut it.

 

 

What an entirely obnoxious and condescending post(not to mention, just completely nonsense).

 

"Don't ever talk about Urlacher or Kuechley in the VICINITY of Martinez? Really? So the whole point just went clear over your head, right? If you want to call Urlacher(who I said was one of the 3-4 best LB'ers in the last few generations) "the grail," great. He still wasn't very good at shedding blockers. And with Kuechly I said it's rare today that you can find a LB'er who excels at everything and then said, "there are only so many Luke Kuechly's out there." So please, so tell me how I've misrepresented either?

 

I also don't care who you swear at every Sunday while watching the game. I see drunks at the bar screaming and swearing at everyone. It doesn't make them any more right than you are.

 

Blake Martinez has graded out at one of the top run defenders in the NFL the last couple years.

[HiAndTight]

If you want to call him average go ahead.

 

I called him above average actually, and will stand solidly by that. You're comparing him directly to HOF'ers, which seems a bit more unreasonable. He's not at that level, clearly, but he's an above-average LB at this point, IMO.

 

And regarding the other stuff, the 'I know the game better than others' stuff generally doesn't fly with me, whether valid or not. It certainly can frame your viewpoints, but it's unlikely to make me and probably many others take you or whoever more seriously, if for no other reason than it's unverifiable. Too many instances of stuff like that not ending up true here over our many years for me to put much weight on that, whether your situation is legit or not. No offense intended, just IMO.

 

 

He's actually complaining about me NOT comparing him to HOF LB'ers, but rather pointing out that it's exceptionally rare now that MLB'ers are capable of both shedding blockers and being able to cover ground and then pointing out that Kuechly is probably the one guy who can do that in today's NFL and that even Urlacher, as great as he was-was not great at getting of blocks. He wasn't even the best off-ball LB'er on his own team in that regard.

 

The "I know more than everyone else" stuff almost always turns out to be nonsense, otherwise it is very obvious in the content of their posts and they don't feel the NEED to tell everyone how smart they are. They also don't feel the need to go out of their way to show people who smart they are by using basic football terminology in an attempt to try and prove their football IQ, ie, "what do you consider to be a MLB'er." We're comparing off ball base LB'ers. Also going back and telling people how high you were on Roquan Smith? Anyone and everyone who just watches the big CFB games was blown away by that kid.

 

Martinez is very good vs the run. That much is clear and he does his job in coverage. He isn't capable of running down the field with an RB like or dropping into coverage like Urlacher, but again, there are very little MLB'ers in the NFL who are actually capable of doing all these things. If the Packers COULD have gotten Roquan Smith, I'm sure they'd have been happy to. However, they don't have him. Who they DO have is Blake Martinez, so in grading the defense Blake Martinez is not some black hole. He's a good, but imperfect MLB'er. He's an above average MLB'er.

 

He's not the guy who makes our D. But he's certainly not the guy who hurts it, and he absolutely does excel at shootings gaps and reading the defense.

 

As I said(though I've been told I'm not permitted), there are only so many Luke Kuechely's out there.

[FVBrewerFan]

I lost track, who won the fight about Martinez?

[nodakfan17]

Who thinks Josh Jones will be on the roster when training camp opens?

[HiAndTight]

I lost track, who won the fight about Martinez?

 

 

Nobody, you don't win a fight about an opinion

 

You lose an argument when you tell people you're more qualified than they are without having a clue as to their life experiences and then you misrepresent what they said and then, in my opinion, get extraordinarily condescending.

[HiAndTight]

Who thinks Josh Jones will be on the roster when training camp opens?

 

 

I'd have liked to keep him on the roster prior to this little stunt he's pulled. Something that he simply does not have the body of work to pull.

 

I liked him as a depth guy, I thought he could be useful in sub packages as I've mentioned, but with a new coach, a very young one at that, and the issues that arose last year about the Packers locker room issues, they're probably better off getting rid of him than they are keeping him around. Not that I think he could do too much damage as I doubt many on the D care what he says or thinks(particularly with all the turnover, 5 new starters at least).

 

 

It's a shame. He's kinda at that point Jeff Janis was after a couple of years. He's not getting much playing time on defense, but he could carve out a nice role as a special teams ace if he had the desire to(and he could still earn a role on the defense and certainly fall into one at some point when injuries arise).

[PeaveyFury]

Yeah, the issue with Jones is that he probably doesn't fit great on the defense as a starter, and you probably can't get anything of value for him to trade him, so what do you do?

 

Really, I think you keep him on the roster and hope he plays his way into a Jarrett Bush-type special teams ace. Otherwise, they'll have to be content to take a Ty Montgomery-esque 7th for him.

[HiAndTight]

Yeah, the issue with Jones is that he probably doesn't fit great on the defense as a starter, and you probably can't get anything of value for him to trade him, so what do you do?

 

Really, I think you keep him on the roster and hope he plays his way into a Jarrett Bush-type special teams ace. Otherwise, they'll have to be content to take a Ty Montgomery-esque 7th for him.

 

 

You're probably right. You'd prefer to not have any guys causing problems right out of the gate when you've got a new HC, but Pettine is pretty well entrenched as the DC I'd think.

 

And it sends a bad message to let a 2nd round pick who struggled because he can't figure out where he's supposed to be force his way out. The only issue is that being a ST's ace requires a guy who's going to give maximum effort at all times. It's up to him if he wants to be out of the league in another year or spend the next 6-7 years making a couple of million dollars a year to be a gunner and make a name for himself that way.

 

Ty Montgomery at least had a legitimate complaint when he spoke up.

[TJseven7]

I'm condescending? You need to go re-read your own work my friend. I'm stunned they haven't banned you yet for how you attack people here. You've called plenty an idiot and compared what I was saying to Trump. Attacking someone doesn't make your argument valid.

 

Not comparing him to HOF LBs is saying, its ok that Blake is bad at shedding blockers because Urlacher was too. That's not comparing him to Urlacher? That's confusing. At the very least its saying that this weakness of Blake's if fine because a HOF had that same weakness, but that ignores everything else and Urlacher was better in everything else. That's not a leg to stand on. I can play the same game by going, Reggie Ragland is a good defender against the run. He's terrible so Blake is too. That makes zero sense.

 

There are 21 LBs head and shoulders better than Blake in this league. They actually make a positive impact on their team. Not even worth debating that they are clearly better. Then you start getting into player who are in his vicinity (grammar police attacks are cool) and a solid number of them are better as well. This is when you start counting a few SSLB who play high volume snaps in the nickle. On top of that, some of these guys are forced to play out of position. Martinez is in the only position he can survive. Simply put, the difference between a street FA and Martinez is smaller than the difference between Martinez and 21 other LBs in the league. That's above average? That is a very very favorable designation.

 

As for the Smith LVE Bush stuff. We did pass LVE and his impact on this defense would have been gigantic. It would of allowed Blake to play 50% of snaps like he's supposed to. Did everyone who watched CFB know he was a star too? Everyone said Tremaine was a star. He was projected in the top 10 by tons of people. I saw plenty with him top 5. Did you think Devin Bush was a top 10 LB? I had him 8th. We can go on and on about my accuracy vs my misses. We won't because you'll simply denounce it because discrediting someone is how you do this. I'm just a DRUNK in a bar.

As for Jones not being able to play in the base but saying you compared him to Barron and Bucannon. They play in the base. As does Onwuasor. That's strange to me. Teams have done it and it works. There are plenty of "small" LBs doing the job quite well in the base but our guy is too small? Littleton is an inch taller 8 lbs heavier and slower. He never comes off the field. Yet, Josh is too small for base? Would you like more examples? Deion Jones Darron Lee also Jones size at mike. Lee played in the 3-4 too. We can keep going. Honestly, its a bit maddening. Like listening to people say Devin Bush is small but Devin White isn't.

 

Frankly, I get it. You love your teams. Horst is a genius, Blake is an above average LB. These things aren't true, but you love your teams. So you'll attack me to keep your perception.

[TJseven7]

Yeah, the issue with Jones is that he probably doesn't fit great on the defense as a starter, and you probably can't get anything of value for him to trade him, so what do you do?

 

Really, I think you keep him on the roster and hope he plays his way into a Jarrett Bush-type special teams ace. Otherwise, they'll have to be content to take a Ty Montgomery-esque 7th for him.

 

 

You're probably right. You'd prefer to not have any guys causing problems right out of the gate when you've got a new HC, but Pettine is pretty well entrenched as the DC I'd think.

 

And it sends a bad message to let a 2nd round pick who struggled because he can't figure out where he's supposed to be force his way out. The only issue is that being a ST's ace requires a guy who's going to give maximum effort at all times. It's up to him if he wants to be out of the league in another year or spend the next 6-7 years making a couple of million dollars a year to be a gunner and make a name for himself that way.

 

Ty Montgomery at least had a legitimate complaint when he spoke up.

 

It doesn't matter at all what a backup S is saying in the locker room. No one follows the lead of the backup S. As for STs undisciplined low instinct freelancers make bad special teamers. If he's not used as a weapon pawn he's going to amount to nothing on his rookie deal. Clay complained about being given this same role. (although at the time Clay had the instincts and athleticism to cause havoc Jones won't accomplish at that spot) That ticked me off and I wanted him cut ASAP after that. Clay was paid like a legacy at that time and didn't deserve the money if he wanted to act "me first." Clay is a different person in that locker room than Josh though. Clay has pull. Have Pettine tell Josh what his job is and tell him to shut up. That's a message sent. Showing the team that a rookie deal bench player can whine his way out of town is a terrible message.

 

Oh and for reference... PFF says he's an average safety. Is that true?

[HiAndTight]

I'm condescending? You need to go re-read your own work my friend. I'm stunned they haven't banned you yet for how you attack people here. You've called plenty an idiot and compared what I was saying to Trump. Attacking someone doesn't make your argument valid.

 

Not comparing him to HOF LBs is saying, its ok that Blake is bad at shedding blockers because Urlacher was too. That's not comparing him to Urlacher? That's confusing. At the very least its saying that this weakness of Blake's if fine because a HOF had that same weakness, but that ignores everything else and Urlacher was better in everything else. That's not a leg to stand on. I can play the same game by going, Reggie Ragland is a good defender against the run. He's terrible so Blake is too. That makes zero sense.

 

There are 21 LBs head and shoulders better than Blake in this league. They actually make a positive impact on their team. Not even worth debating that they are clearly better. Then you start getting into player who are in his vicinity (grammar police attacks are cool) and a solid number of them are better as well. This is when you start counting a few SSLB who play high volume snaps in the nickle. On top of that, some of these guys are forced to play out of position. Martinez is in the only position he can survive. Simply put, the difference between a street FA and Martinez is smaller than the difference between Martinez and 21 other LBs in the league. That's above average? That is a very very favorable designation.

 

As for the Smith LVE Bush stuff. We did pass LVE and his impact on this defense would have been gigantic. It would of allowed Blake to play 50% of snaps like he's supposed to. Did everyone who watched CFB know he was a star too? Everyone said Tremaine was a star. He was projected in the top 10 by tons of people. I saw plenty with him top 5. Did you think Devin Bush was a top 10 LB? I had him 8th. We can go on and on about my accuracy vs my misses. We won't because you'll simply denounce it because discrediting someone is how you do this. I'm just a DRUNK in a bar.

As for Jones not being able to play in the base but saying you compared him to Barron and Bucannon. They play in the base. As does Onwuasor. That's strange to me. Teams have done it and it works. There are plenty of "small" LBs doing the job quite well in the base but our guy is too small? Littleton is an inch taller 8 lbs heavier and slower. He never comes off the field. Yet, Josh is too small for base? Would you like more examples? Deion Jones Darron Lee also Jones size at mike. Lee played in the 3-4 too. We can keep going. Honestly, its a bit maddening. Like listening to people say Devin Bush is small but Devin White isn't.

 

Frankly, I get it. You love your teams. Horst is a genius, Blake is an above average LB. These things aren't true, but you love your teams. So you'll attack me to keep your perception.

 

 

 

 

Oh...I get it now. You're the guy who claimed Horst hadn't done a great job at buliding the Bucks roster.

 

 

I thought I made things pretty clear. But I'll reiterate a few points with you for clarification since you didn't seem to understand the first time around.

 

1-I didn't compare Urlacher to Martinez. I simply pointed out to someone that the ability able to blow up linemen is no longer a skill possess by most LB'ers in the NFL. I used one of the best LB'ers to play the game as an example of how LB'ers can still be good and struggle in this aspect of the game. I never said it was "ok," but we're comparing him to his peers. His peers struggle with the same things he was being downgraded for. Since you're citing Daron Lee and Deion Jones, you apparently don't consider it to be very important either.

 

2-I don't know why you're going on about Bush as though you've proven some point. Or for that matter Edmunds from last year. It's really not hard to say "I predicted these guys would be good and I was right." It's particularly confusing when you're talking about one player who's never played a NFL game yet and another who has played just one season.

 

It's particularly baffling since I don't care about any of them and they have nothing to do with this discussion. I don't know what the relevance of that rant was or what it has to do with anything.

 

3-

I'm just a DRUNK in a bar.

 

If you say so. I certainly never did. You said you're constantly "swearing" at the TV about Martinez. This was apparently somehow meant to support your position that you're more qualified than everyone else on here to evaluate football talent. I simply pointed out that's not a real strong argument as I see people doing the same thing on a bar stool. You somehow conflating that with me calling YOU a drunk....that's all on you. I made a pretty clear clarification there.

 

4th-Never said Horst was a genius. I said he did a great job building the Bucks and that he had a good chance to win NBA Executive of the Year. You called him average and said anyone could have easily made the trade he did for Mirotic and the trade he made for Hill.

 

As for Martinez, he's a good MLB'er. I guess if you're actually using Daron Lee, a guy who was literally one of the worst LB'ers who got regular playing time last year....then you apparently just like guys who put up good combine numbers.

 

 

This seems like a particularly stupid topic to get bogged down in though, if Blake Martinez is average or above average, but like the Horst discussion, it's again going in circles, so how about this, we just block each other and move on?

[TJseven7]

post 71

"I see drunks at the bar screaming and swearing at everyone. It doesn't make them any more right than you are."

 

Attack, retract, attack deflect. Whatever. My comment about Martinez being a below average LB is tag-lined by me saying I'm swearing at him constantly on Sundays. Which is at home, alone, pacing in front of my TV, sober, and talking under my breath (while screaming inside my head) like I did when I coached. But DRUNKS AT THE BAR DO THAT TOO!!! Please. I've seen your "debate" style. If it talks like a troll, and acts like a troll...

 

So you've retracted Horst to doing a great job. I thought he was:

"To say Horst hasn't been a brilliant GM since he's taken the job given the salary cap restraints is absolutely ludicrous."

 

I apologize that I confused you with another poster on the "genius" take. But either way, why are you sliding away from your stance. Don't want to seem too off-base? Now, are you calling yourself absolutely ludicrous because you only said he did a great job? Or are those attacks only directed at me?

 

Martinez could be good if Martinez sucked at shedding blocks and was elite at everything else like Urlacher was. He's not. He's poor in many areas. Darron Lee and Deion Jones get away with it because they have traits that make them an entirely different LB. Jones is plus everything else. Darron can cover and range in ways that Martinez couldn't fathom. Urlacher and speed guys with range can get away with not having great shed skills because they have closing speed. They can take longer routes to the ball to avoid blockers. They make blockers miss. Martinez is a thumper and if you are a thumper who can't shed or scrap, you are just slow. Martinez needs that trait or he's a square peg in a round hole. So in summary, yes, Martinez doesn't need that trait, if he was a completely different human being at the LB position. Like Urlacher. You can't defend a lack of traits that way. You have to build the composite of the player based off of what they are athletically capable of, and how their instincts enhance or decrease that, then think about what a player with those traits needs to be good at, to be a good player. it's a pairing of traits that doesn't go together with nothing in the tank to overcome that weakness. A run game negative mark, when he doesn't have coverage positives. Downhill plus, tackling plus, bad sifting and scraping. Run game grades out above average. Passing game work is quite bad. That equals below average.

 

"It's particularly baffling since I don't care about any of them and they have nothing to do with this discussion. I don't know what the relevance of that rant was or what it has to do with anything. "

 

So my take on Martinez is wrong according to a guy who doesn't care about LB on other teams that he's being compared against? Sounds fair.

 

"You called him average and said anyone could have easily made the trade he did for Mirotic and the trade he made for Hill. "

I did and I'm correct. You called me an idiot who didn't understand the CBA among other things. I'd explain it to you but honestly I was so irritated by your terrible tone and conduct that I simply reported it.

 

74.8 Blake Martinez... 72.4 Darron Lee. Darron Lee earning that grade for ELITE COVERAGE while playing out of position at Mike in the 3-4. Buck or in the 4-3 a Will but he's certainly not Mike in the 3-4. While Blake played in his best fit scenerio. So Lee was terrible? Blake was above average? Do you miss leather helmets? 3 yards and a cloud of dust? Wing T? I like LBs who cover and range because that's important and hard to do. I actually didn't like Lee when he got drafted (not a 1st) because his instincts were rather mediocre. (like Blake's) He's come a long way but you'd have to watch to know that. The truth is he took a big step forward in his 3rd year. Specifically in range and coverage. The games clearly slowing down for him and his speed is finally starting to show up on the field equal to where it was in college. He's a big help to KCs weak pack of LBs (at Will) and won't come off the field. But that's me watching the ole combine which I think is almost worthless. Or is it you not watching the game?

 

Martinez is an old school dying breed in the current NFL. Jake Ryan was graded the same by PFF before Martinez took over. Jake Ryan is well below average at LB but at least his traits fit together. I guess I can't explain it to you any other way at this point because you aren't going to watch the league to know for yourself but you are certain you know regardless. Watching a few games of Darron Lee in 2016-2017 won't cut it if you want to make accurate comparisons. You don't care about that though. Research bah. You can just wing it then attack people who disagree until you feel superior.

 

Cuz if it talks like a troll, and acts like a troll...