Milwaukee Bucks 2019 playoffs Rd 2 vs Boston Celtics

[OnTheBlack]

Bucks fans, lots of them, were a similar brand of annoying after Game 1. 2nd quarter of this game my brother is texting me that this series is over and Giannis is "scared."

 

Really I didn't even think they were close to their best tonight other than Middleton. Bledsoe played well tonight. Most everyone else was just ok at best. Or great in spurts, bad in other spurts.

 

 

I thought we played well. I think the only player who stood out as playing poorly(either team) was Kyrie. Some of that was Bledsoe playing more aggressive. But if Kyrie is playing like his normal self the only difference is we'd have probably had to wait a bit to empty the bench.

 

As long as we can keep Tatum in check and Heyward doesn't impact the game like he did in game 1, we should be alright.

[OnTheBlack]

Lopez with a -17 supports my belief that he's not a good match-up for them. Sometimes even a single game +/- is representative of a player's actual impact. Nothing against him but this isn't the series for him when Ersan and Niko are both 100%. He has help defense in the paint, but they need better perimeter defense. And most of Boston's drivers are too quick for his help defense anyway.

 

He was +2 on Sunday. Only Buck in the positive.

 

 

We were -44 with him and Horford on the floor during the Bucks/Celts matchup's this year. He's not a good matchup for them. I think he'd be a better matchup in a potential series with Toronto(I can't see Philly winning that series with Embid looking so out of shape).

[coolhandluke121]

 

He was +2 on Sunday. Only Buck in the positive.

 

 

We were -44 with him and Horford on the floor during the Bucks/Celts matchup's this year. He's not a good matchup for them. I think he'd be a better matchup in a potential series with Toronto(I can't see Philly winning that series with Embid looking so out of shape).

 

Yeah, his +2 Sunday was just random good fortune from being on the floor on the rare occasions the Bucks were hitting some shots. It wasn't a credit to him at all. He's been a great defensive piece in the right match-ups this year because he protects the paint intelligently without fouling, but Boston was something like 27th in the entire NBA in points in the paint this year so he's of no use against them. Playing Lopez plays right into their hands because they love wide open outside shots for their bigs.

 

Morris, Baynes, and Horford are 11 for 19 on 3's and 27 for 44 overall, and it's almost all wide open jumpers because Lopez can't even come close to contesting them. They have 6 fta's between them because they're living on perimeter shots. The game was looking dangerously like a replay of Sunday at times in the first half, but Ersan will stay within 5 feet of them and they won't have so many wide open attempts, as we saw in the 2nd half yesterday. That was the biggest change besides the Bucks actually hitting their open shots.

[homer]

 

He was +2 on Sunday. Only Buck in the positive.

 

 

We were -44 with him and Horford on the floor during the Bucks/Celts matchup's this year. He's not a good matchup for them. I think he'd be a better matchup in a potential series with Toronto(I can't see Philly winning that series with Embid looking so out of shape).

 

Yeah, his +2 Sunday was just random good fortune from being on the floor on the rare occasions the Bucks were hitting some shots. It wasn't a credit to him at all. He's been a great defensive piece in the right match-ups this year because he protects the paint intelligently without fouling, but Boston was something like 27th in the entire NBA in points in the paint this year so he's of no use against them. Playing Lopez plays right into their hands because they love wide open outside shots for their bigs.

 

Morris, Baynes, and Horford are 11 for 19 on 3's and 27 for 44 overall, and it's almost all wide open jumpers because Lopez can't even come close to contesting them. They have 6 fta's between them because they're living on perimeter shots. The game was looking dangerously like a replay of Sunday at times in the first half, but Ersan will stay within 5 feet of them and they won't have so many wide open attempts, as we saw in the 2nd half yesterday. That was the biggest change besides the Bucks actually hitting their open shots.

 

Which is why single game + - is not a useful metric.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'd still like to see Lopez see 12 to 15 minutes on the floor. He's still presents a perimeter threat, and he can give Mirotic and ilyasova a breather. At the very least I'd like to see him stay on the floor just enough so he's not rusty for the next few rounds.

[HiAndTight]

 

Yeah, his +2 Sunday was just random good fortune from being on the floor on the rare occasions the Bucks were hitting some shots. It wasn't a credit to him at all. He's been a great defensive piece in the right match-ups this year because he protects the paint intelligently without fouling, but Boston was something like 27th in the entire NBA in points in the paint this year so he's of no use against them. Playing Lopez plays right into their hands because they love wide open outside shots for their bigs.

 

Morris, Baynes, and Horford are 11 for 19 on 3's and 27 for 44 overall, and it's almost all wide open jumpers because Lopez can't even come close to contesting them. They have 6 fta's between them because they're living on perimeter shots. The game was looking dangerously like a replay of Sunday at times in the first half, but Ersan will stay within 5 feet of them and they won't have so many wide open attempts, as we saw in the 2nd half yesterday. That was the biggest change besides the Bucks actually hitting their open shots.

 

Which is why single game + - is not a useful metric.

 

 

I don't particularly care about the +/-. Especially since it's different every time I look. He's now -12 last night and not 17 and I thought he was negative in the 1st game when I originally looked at the box score.

 

But you just have to watch the game. He cannot guard Horford on the perimeter. I love what he's done for us this year...he's been a huge part of it. But sometimes, it's just a bad matchup. That was one of the reasons I thought the matchup between these two teams was gonna make life tougher on the Bucks. They seem to just not be a great matchup for us.

 

Ersan I thought played really well. I don't have a box score in front of me, but he played hard, he was contesting shots, he had a few taps outs, so no rebounds, but kept the ball alive.

 

Edit-I meant to say he doesn't get credit for those rebounds...when he fights and taps the ball out to a teammate, not that he had no rebounds.

[HiAndTight]

I'd still like to see Lopez see 12 to 15 minutes on the floor. He's still presents a perimeter threat, and he can give Mirotic and ilyasova a breather. At the very least I'd like to see him stay on the floor just enough so he's not rusty for the next few rounds.

 

 

Assuming we get to the next couple rounds...I'm not sure that he's going to be THAT much better in those rounds. Certainly vs Golden State he's likely to be a poor matchup if he's on Draymond. And Toronto, I don't know if I like him playing Ibaka 15-18 feet away from the basket, much less at the 3 point line. He helps rip protection a ton, but we CAN manage with Ersan, Mirotic, Giannis. Hell, everyone is pretty good at contesting shots at or near the rim.

 

 

Side note, on 16 of Kyrie's 18 shots last night, they were contested. Now I know he can make a lot of those normally, but that's an exceptionally high number for a player as explosive and as good finishing at the rim as he is. Plus, he's had that little Jordan-esque turnaround going all playoffs long.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Which is why single game + - is not a useful metric.

 

Sometimes it is though. Lopez clearly can't defend Boston's bigs on the perimeter and it was a huge problem until they gave Ersan a lot of his minutes. Then their defense locked them down. You can't just say +/- always tells a story, but you can't say it never tells a story either. Lopez is a huge liability against them. There's a reason bigs like him have regularly been played off the floor in the playoffs for years, and it's only getting worse. He works against some teams, but not this one.

 

There was nothing at all random about him having a -12 (don't know where I saw -17) in a game the Bucks lead by about 25 when they benched the starters.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Side note, on 16 of Kyrie's 18 shots last night, they were contested. Now I know he can make a lot of those normally, but that's an exceptionally high number for a player as explosive and as good finishing at the rim as he is. Plus, he's had that little Jordan-esque turnaround going all playoffs long.

 

Hill and Bledsoe have been great defenders all year. Absolutely great. And Kyrie is a little overrated. Makes some sensational shots, but you can't count on regular efficiency from him and he's a liability on defense. For all the talk about Giannis's struggles, he's still clearly way ahead of Kyrie in the star pecking order.

[HiAndTight]

 

Which is why single game + - is not a useful metric.

 

Sometimes it is though. Lopez clearly can't defend Boston's bigs on the perimeter and it was a huge problem until they gave Ersan a lot of his minutes. Then their defense locked them down. You can't just say +/- always tells a story, but you can't say it never tells a story either. Lopez is a huge liability against them. There's a reason bigs like him have regularly been played off the floor in the playoffs for years, and it's only getting worse. He works against some teams, but not this one.

 

There was nothing at all random about him having a -12 (don't know where I saw -17) in a game the Bucks lead by about 25 when they benched the starters.

 

Pretty sure the original box score said -17. That's probably a little more subject to change after the fact than during the game. If he checks out while they're shooting rebounds, does he get -2 for that in real time? I honestly don't know.

 

But it is obvious for all the great things he's done, this series in particular he is not a positive. The Celts play Horford, it's a bit mis-match. He's fine if they choose to go with Baynes on the floor with...lets say the flat Earther, Brown, Tatum or Heyward(hope it's more Tatum if he keeps playing like he has) and Morris.

 

So maybe sit Lopez, when they yank Horford, bring him in for a stretch. But I agree, he's not providing much value.

 

It should be a BIT better with Toronto against Ibaka who had his worst year shooting 3's, hitting just 29 pct, but he can still pull Lopez away from the basket and hit those mid-range shots, and he's got a history of being a competent shooter from deep, but then you've got Gasol, an elite passing big man who's hitting at about a .50 pct clip and hit 45 pct during the season.

 

That's putting the cart before the hose, but the point is, with centers who don't posess Capela like athletic ability, which Lopez does not despite all of his other talents, sometimes they're just a liability due to matchup and this series is one of them.

 

 

It's all good though. As long as Bledsoe keeps attacking and doesn't get out of control, I think the Bucks take this series in Boston in game 6. Split the next 2, win one at home and then close out in the most arrogant non-NY sports city in the world.

[HiAndTight]

 

Side note, on 16 of Kyrie's 18 shots last night, they were contested. Now I know he can make a lot of those normally, but that's an exceptionally high number for a player as explosive and as good finishing at the rim as he is. Plus, he's had that little Jordan-esque turnaround going all playoffs long.

 

Hill and Bledsoe have been great defenders all year. Absolutely great. And Kyrie is a little overrated. Makes some sensational shots, but you can't count on regular efficiency from him and he's a liability on defense. For all the talk about Giannis's struggles, he's still clearly way ahead of Kyrie in the star pecking order.

 

 

I don't like to do the overrated or underrated thing because people have varying opinions. I think he's a top 10 player in the NBA right now(I could be talked down a few spots, but he's so valuable late in close games and he's one of the most skilled players we've ever seen that I have him in that range). Giannis is clearly not on Durant's level just yet. I think that's fair to say and everyone would agree with that. I think a focused LeBron is still just a shade behind, though not during an 82 game schedule.

 

After that, it's Kawhi, Giannis, a healthy Anthony Davis, Steph and Harden. Among that group, I think I'd put Giannis atop it, but Leonard could easily change my mind.

 

Then..while I'm probably missing someone, I'd put Kyrie in that next group.

 

 

It'll be fun to see how Brogdon looks when he gets back on the floor. Kyrie is too quick for him in the open court, but Kyrie does like to post up and I like that match up as well. Brogdon's a good, physical defender(though I think we differ on how good).

 

 

I think the keys the rest of the way are-

1-Giannis has to be a little more efficient. I don't think he'll continue to hit 3's, but that hasn't been a big deal either way. They're very good at shutting him down in the half court, so he needs to keep attacking and especially in transition. That's clearly where the Bucks are at their best.

 

2-Keep Tatum down. Brown's played pretty well, but hasn't been much of a difference maker. I don't think we can afford to see those two go off like they did last year.

 

3-Keep making it tough on Kyrie. Bledsoe played him physically and can match his quickness as well as just about any other PG. And just keep throwing guys at him. Hill, Brogdon and even Pat Cannaughton can play him tough(in that order obviously). Make him work, be ready to rotate when he drives, and just keep contesting. He'll play much better, but we can afford that. He's good enough that he's going to make tough shots even when he's guarded well. But you can't give him the easy ones.

 

4-Continue to close out on their shooters. Heyward is also going to play better, but Brown is just 21 and an up and down player, Tatum has been awful and it looks to me like he's been less active defensively as a result(which was one of the things I was concerned with, he's capable with his length of being a very good defensive player with deflections and what not.

 

5-This is actually just behind the 1st one, but keep hitting the open shots. With Brogdon hopefully coming back, you've got shooters everywhere. If you can keep playing tough D, getting those deflections, getting out and increasing the pace. Both teams played at a high pace all year(I'd imagine we were among the top 3-4 teams in the NBA with GSW, Houston(when healthy and Harden isn't playing ISO on 60 pct of the possessions). And Boston was likely just behind that, but they definitely do NOT want to play to our pace in this series. They cannot win doing so. So it's up to us to push the ball, to do what we do defensively, get in the passing lanes, anticipate, get some deflections and get Giannis or Blesoe the ball with a full head of steam and get your shooters where they need to be.

 

Mirotic, Brogdon, Middleton are all deadly in that scenario, and that keeps the pressure on Boston. You get into a halfcourt game, and this is where I get worried about matchup's. They can throw out Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Morris and Horford and that's a ton of length and as greate as Giannis is, when they have 2 bigs standing just above the restricted area just waiting for him in the half court game, especially when one is Horford, that makes it really tough for him to do what he has to do.

 

 

So to sum it all up, Lopez hurts them because they can exploit him and hit open 3's or even mid range shots, but they have plenty of bigs who can play, who can rotate and as long as they're playing good D and able to get out and run, they're going to outclass this team every time.

 

If the Celts slow this game down a bit like they want to, things will be much harder.

[coolhandluke121]

I definitely think Giannis is ahead of Durant. He's a much more valuable defender, and Durant has it easy playing with those Warriors. Giannis is the guy who makes it easy for everyone else, making the Bucks the #3 offense in the league, but with GSW it's a two-way street. You won't see Durant triple-teamed in the paint the way teams regularly do to Giannis.

 

I have Giannis at the top with Curry, Harden, Durant, Davis, Kawhi, George, Lebron, Lillard, Embiid, and Jokic all in the mix. I can't make a case for Kyrie. He's not consistently as efficient as the best offensive players, doesn't set guys up as well, and is terrible on defense, even compared to some of the low standards the offensive wizards like Curry, Harden, and Lillard have set.

 

To be clear, I still think Lopez is a good player. Usually you want to force opposing bigs like Horford, Morris, and Baynes to shoot pick-and-pop shots. It's just that Boston is unusual in that this plays into their hands because it's one of their best options besides Kyrie iso's (which by the way are good plays in a vacuum but I feel Boston lost some of their egalitarian mojo and identity by going that route so often).

[FVBrewerFan]

Sir Charles made a point I've been saying all year. He doesn't like Giannis bringing the ball up the court to start offense, and I couldn't agree more. Waste of the shot clock and physical effort for Giannis to dribble up to the top of the key, see there's a wall (as there will be 100% of the time), stops to think, then throws it to the wing. Just wayyyy too predictable, and plays into their hands of stopping Giannis without even doing anything at all ut standing there.

 

They should have him starting out on the wing or the low post, alternate having him in a different position every half-court possession. Then move the ball, set picks for him, and it will be impossible for them to form that wall. Seems so obvious, I don't know why they haven't made that adjustment.

 

On defense, I mentioned this briefly earlier, but they changed their defense significantly in game 2 and it went largely unnoticed. They started switching on 3s so Lopez (or whoever) doesn't have to go around the screen to defend the 3. Great adjustment because that also keeps Lopez in the lane to defend the rim. They didn't switch EVERY time, but a lot more often than game 1. Boston will no doubt adjust, that's what makes a playoff series so much fun.

[Baldkin]

Giannis is clearly not on Durant's level just yet. I think that's fair to say and everyone would agree with that. I think a focused LeBron is still just a shade behind, though not during an 82 game schedule.

 

After that, it's Kawhi, Giannis, a healthy Anthony Davis, Steph and Harden. Among that group, I think I'd put Giannis atop it, but Leonard could easily change my mind.

 

Then..while I'm probably missing someone, I'd put Kyrie in that next group.

 

I'd put Jokic, Embiid, Lillard, KAT, Oladipo, Gobert, George all ahead of Kyrie.

 

Anyway, two things I noticed:

 

1) They were surrounding Giannis with Mirotic and Lopez and pushing them a solid 3 feet back and 3 feet wider. Making it easier for Giannis to kick to them (and harder for the D to recover). Those guys have no problems with the additional distance while shooting.

 

2) They came out in the second half and moved the ball. They made a decision as a team to make the right play, instead of the "me" play.

[coolhandluke121]

Sir Charles made a point I've been saying all year. He doesn't like Giannis bringing the ball up the court to start offense, and I couldn't agree more. Waste of the shot clock and physical effort for Giannis to dribble up to the top of the key, see there's a wall (as there will be 100% of the time), stops to think, then throws it to the wing. Just wayyyy too predictable, and plays into their hands of stopping Giannis without even doing anything at all ut standing there.

 

They should have him starting out on the wing or the low post, alternate having him in a different position every half-court possession. Then move the ball, set picks for him, and it will be impossible for them to form that wall. Seems so obvious, I don't know why they haven't made that adjustment.

 

 

All true, but I'm convinced that Giannis just isn't comfortable scoring off the ball. He would be great on quick hand-offs and cutting action, but he likes to have the ball and size his guy up. And he's so good at it that it would be hard to get him used to doing stuff that he's not as comfortable doing, even if it would pay off in the long run.

 

The Bucks also don't have the type of passers who are great at setting guys up on the move. They have drive and kick passers. Remember how Nash would set up Marion and Amare at the rim? Giannis could feast on that with half as much effort as he's putting out now, at least in stretches, but they just haven't figured that out as a team for whatever reason. And as much as I disliked Jabari's overall game, he was very good at cutting into open lanes off the ball to get easy dunks. Giannis could learn from that.

[MrTPlush]

Who makes these schedules? The amount of off days is laughable. There is no momentum and by the time the next game happens in a series it feels like it has been a month.

[tmwiese55]

Sir Charles made a point I've been saying all year. He doesn't like Giannis bringing the ball up the court to start offense, and I couldn't agree more. Waste of the shot clock and physical effort for Giannis to dribble up to the top of the key, see there's a wall (as there will be 100% of the time), stops to think, then throws it to the wing. Just wayyyy too predictable, and plays into their hands of stopping Giannis without even doing anything at all ut standing there.

 

They should have him starting out on the wing or the low post, alternate having him in a different position every half-court possession. Then move the ball, set picks for him, and it will be impossible for them to form that wall. Seems so obvious, I don't know why they haven't made that adjustment.

 

 

All true, but I'm convinced that Giannis just isn't comfortable scoring off the ball. He would be great on quick hand-offs and cutting action, but he likes to have the ball and size his guy up. And he's so good at it that it would be hard to get him used to doing stuff that he's not as comfortable doing, even if it would pay off in the long run.

 

The Bucks also don't have the type of passers who are great at setting guys up on the move. They have drive and kick passers. Remember how Nash would set up Marion and Amare at the rim? Giannis could feast on that with half as much effort as he's putting out now, at least in stretches, but they just haven't figured that out as a team for whatever reason. And as much as I disliked Jabari's overall game, he was very good at cutting into open lanes off the ball to get easy dunks. Giannis could learn from that.

 

I think that comes down to still not utilizing the Giannis/Bled PnR as much as they could. It's more than with Kidd but still could be used way more, seems like it almost always ends in a good result when they do it. It gets to the first posters point about the D not being able to set when he gets the ball. It gets Giannis going down hill with a crease and gets the D having to rotate. All good things.

[tmwiese55]

Who makes these schedules? The amount of off days is laughable. There is no momentum and by the time the next game happens in a series it feels like it has been a month.

 

It's all about TV. It is what it is, they need to drag these out long enough to line up with the predetermined Finals TV schedule. All the sweeps and 5 game series made it more glaring. After game 3 they have two days off without traveling.

[HiAndTight]

I definitely think Giannis is ahead of Durant. He's a much more valuable defender, and Durant has it easy playing with those Warriors. Giannis is the guy who makes it easy for everyone else, making the Bucks the #3 offense in the league, but with GSW it's a two-way street. You won't see Durant triple-teamed in the paint the way teams regularly do to Giannis.

 

I have Giannis at the top with Curry, Harden, Durant, Davis, Kawhi, George, Lebron, Lillard, Embiid, and Jokic all in the mix. I can't make a case for Kyrie. He's not consistently as efficient as the best offensive players, doesn't set guys up as well, and is terrible on defense, even compared to some of the low standards the offensive wizards like Curry, Harden, and Lillard have set.

 

To be clear, I still think Lopez is a good player. Usually you want to force opposing bigs like Horford, Morris, and Baynes to shoot pick-and-pop shots. It's just that Boston is unusual in that this plays into their hands because it's one of their best options besides Kyrie iso's (which by the way are good plays in a vacuum but I feel Boston lost some of their egalitarian mojo and identity by going that route so often).

 

 

 

With regard to Giannis passing up Durant and LeBron(you didn't actually say LeBron, so maybe I'm assuming here, but I think a lot of people saw this as the year that Durant kinda stepped out of James shadow)-I just don't agree. I think MAYBE you're talking about which player was more productive from Sept on, but in a series, a big game, hell, I don't think Giannis is on Durant's level yet. There is NOTHING Durant can't do. He's outstanding in the open court, he can take his man off the dribble, shoot over anyone and do so at a ridiculously high clip...oh, and he's shown he can be one of the better defensive players in the league when called upon to do so, rare as that may be.

 

You talk about him having the advantage of playing with Golden State, but he's still the best player on that team and when he was in OKC with Westbrook's poor shot selection and playing out of control at times, he had Golden State up 3-1 and on the verge of knocking them off and playing like Sidney Moncrief in Kareem's body defensively as he just dominated that series and contested shots against guys he wasn't even playing!

 

Durant may be the most unguardable offensive player in NBA history and he's a very good defensive player as well when needed. Now obviously Giannis being 24 and on a team that hadn't won an NBA series since the wrong Ervin Johnson was logging minutes for them, Giannis was statistically the better player over the course of a season. But do you HONESTLY think that in a 7 game series or even just in a must win that Giannis has passed up Durant and LeBron as the best player in the world?

 

I think you're about a year or two short on that...if not 3. I'm trying to only argue in the affirmative for both players since they're so great, but you have to look at Giannis and his shot and his FT shooting. Durant is a sniper and can do anything, He's also an underrated defender who is very good when the team needs him to be. He's not playing 100 miles an hour in a Feb game vs Washington like Giannis because...well, he doesn't have as much to prove and he's won a few titles already, so like virtually every great who enters their mid to late 20's, they learn to pace themselves. So I'll grant you that Giannis may have been better in the regular season than him, but do you honestly believe that in a 7 game series, Giannis is a better player than KD already? Especially as the game slows, and half court offense becomes exponentially more important?

 

KD's a 7 footer who's near that 90/50/40 range year in and year out and probably the most skilled and versatile scorer in the history of the game, as well as a damn good defender. He can take almost anyone off the dribble and get to the rim...unless you're going to put a smaller guy on him with elite quickness, and then it's just like a shoot around for him. He can shoot over the top of virtually anyone.

 

I just can't see the argument that Giannis has surpassed Durant. That's almost like saying Betts is a better player than Trout because he was better during the year last year(would work better if Trout was on a team on a historic run while Betts was the guy on an upstart team, but my point remains. If you're playing a game or a series, I just vehemently disagree that Giannis has ascended to the very top spot in the NBA. I feel like you're jumping the gun a bit here.

 

For as great as Giannis is, he's still not a great shooter, doesn't shoot a great pct on FT's and we've at least seen how you can force Giannis to give up the ball and make other people beat you. Shy of trapping Durant every play with a Capella and Tucker, how do you stop him? And in that case, he'd just pass to anyone and the Warriors end up with an easy shot.

 

 

As for Kyrie, I said he was in that next group around 10. You listed 10 guys. There were one or two I disagreed with, but that's fine. I'd still take him over Lillard as that strikes me a bit as a recency bias after that huge game winning shot over OKC(which was a bad shot for him to take, PG13 was absolutely right about that).

 

 

But I'm not that interested in finding an EXACT number of where he ranks among NBA players.

 

The last 3 years-

200 Games Played-

89/48/40 while putting up 24.5/6/4, very few turnovers and that includes the chunk of time he missed for a very painful knee injury that he has surgery on and got infected. Aside from just the pure numbers, he may be the most skilled PG in the NBA when it comes to his handle, and finishing in the paint.

 

And then he comes back AFTER a painful knee injury and he puts up better numbers.

His OBPM was 6.0 to Giannis' 5.7. Obviously, Giannis was a far-far better defensive player, offensively, they're at least comparable and you're underestimating how much better of a passer he's become.

24/7/5 while shooting over 40 from 3 again and turning the ball over far less than Giannis despite being their primary ball handler while Giannis is one of many we have who handle the ball?

 

The regular season numbers don't bear out that he's anything but a great offensive player and his post-season history in the biggest games tell you that he's not just putting up stats in the regulare season.

 

He's played in multiple finals, hit huge shots, including the game-winning to win a championship....and while he's not a good defensive player, with the Celts length and big guys behind him, and especially when Smart is out there with them, he's a dangerous help defender who plays the passing lanes and gets yo out in transition.

 

 

So rank him ahead of Lillard, a spot behind Lillard, he's an elite offensive player. I do know I'd definitely have him ahead of Embid right now. Despite his big game last night, and I hope he has a couple more in that series because I don't think the Sixers can beat us and I think the Raptors are a much better team, the guy constantly looks like he's laboring out there. He's probably about 15 pounds overweight. He doesn't scare me in a matchup with this Bucks team.

 

 

 

As for Lopez, I don't know if you were just clarifying, but I agree. Lopez has been an enormous part of this team this year. He fits Buds system perfectly. He's an incredibly unselfish player, he's smart. I remember reading(can't source it)that he used to get criticized for his rebounding, or lack thereof, the advanced analytics actually showed how much better his teams where at rebounding when he was on the floor, due in large part because he's smart enough and physical enough o take a guy like Drummond for example, get a body on him and allow someone else to get the rebound. Doesn't go in his stat line, but it's a rebound we may have otherwise not gotten.

[tmwiese55]

I would agree LBJ and KD should still be slotted ahead of Giannis. After this Lakers season folks are too quick to write off LBJ, just 11 months ago he was basically dropping 40 pt triple doubles all over the playoffs and was clearly the best player in the world. His team was just trash this year and he got hurt, he definitely slacked off too due to the situation. But anyone playing one bball game today takes LBJ #1. I obviously can see a debate among the next patch of guys but I'd go Giannis #3 and primed to take over #1 in the next few years as KD/LBJ age.

 

Dame/Kyrie. While I do see the debate, I take Dame without much hesitation. I've always been a Dame fan so I guess I'm a bit biased but I put value in that he's never hurt and no drama around him. So even if you want to say they're essentially even as on court players if you played right now, the fact that DAme doesn't get hurt almost every year like Kyrie is a huge notch in his favor. The tack on the Kyrie locker room drama/being a poor leader vs Dame's clearly strong leadership and it's another notch for him. Also keep in mind last series was Kyries first playoff win without LBJ in his career. Dame lost his entire team 3-4 years ago and has kept on winning ever since when everyone thought they'd fall apart, he just keeps winning.

[HiAndTight]

I don't really think it's an "insult" to Giannis to say he's behind LeBron and Durant. Both are top 20 players and Giannis is still jus 24. There are still a couple areas he can improve(and given how he has done so every year, I have little doubt he will.

 

 

As for Lillard vs Kyrie, it's a little unfair to say this was Kyries first playoff series win without LeBron. He came to a TERRIBLE team and then LeBron came back shortly after. Then he leaves and he suffers a very painful injury.

 

As far as being a leader, I don't really have an opinion on that. Boston is gonna get covered and each comment is going to get analyzed SOOO much more than those in Portland.

 

I thought Kyrie showed leadership stepping up and calling LeBron. I don't really know if he was being a good leader or a bad leader when he was calling out the younger guys while the Celts were up and down this year, but that's what LeBron did(and it's one of the things that made Kyrie want to leave).

 

Both players are great and my point really isn't EXACTLY were to rank either as I said Irving was "in that next group." The group right behind the superstars, and two-way studs like LeBron, KD, Giannis, Kawhi, George, Harden....

 

 

I do think there MIGHT be a little recency bias with Lillard. He's been a great player for years, but hitting a 38 footer or whatever it was over George to win the series is the last thing in everyone's mind. It makes people forget about Kyries game-winning 3 that brought Cleveland a title.

 

My larger overall point though is....Irvin is really good. He's an elite PG. If you want to say he's 12th, fine, but over 3 years he's pretty close to hitting that 90/50/40 threshold that's extremely rare for one season. He's a 40 pct 3 point shooter, he's got a versatile mid-range game and he can finish...plus, he may be one of the few guys in the game who has a better handle than Lillard.

 

 

I'll just say this...in a close game...dudes a problem. He can get a clean look against almost anyone and with their shooters, you can't really collapse on him.

 

 

Best we can hope for is that we keep getting solid D from Bled, Hill and a little from Patty C and keep making him take contested shots. He won't go 4/18 again most likely, but as long as he doesn't go off, and we don't let one of the young studs who's been erratic in this series go off, we should be going into game 4 up 2-1.

[coolhandluke121]

It's been like this everywhere for Kyrie. He pounds the air out of the ball and sucks the air out of his team. Yeah, he's extremely talented, but there's always a "but". Actually, there's always a few. Defense, leadership, efficiency, ball movement... he gets his assists, but so did Marbury and Iverson. You can just feel the tension when someone else misses a shot and knows he thinks he should have gotten that shot. They got him back and are actually playing slightly worse than they played last year, even though they have otherwise been basically the exact same team all year. They lost their identity and mojo as team-oriented overachievers. I know there are other factors like Hayward's struggles and Brown's slump, but it's still just incredibly hard to believe you can add Kyrie and actually get worse. Yes, his skills are sensational, but there's no style points. His incredible handles and subsequent lay-ups aren't worth any more than a boring 15-foot bank shot from Tim Duncan... and he's a joke compared to Duncan and many others in defense and intangibles.

 

I'd put him somewhere around 20 in the league if I'm starting a team to win this year, and that's not even considering his next contract.

[adambr2]

Bledsoe needs to calm down.

[adambr2]

Absolutely garbage charge call on Giannis. Dude never even comes close to getting set and starts falling down before Giannis even contacts him.

[adambr2]

Bledsoe is an absolute mental midget today.