Milwaukee Bucks 2019 playoffs Rd 2 vs Boston Celtics

[CheezWizHed]

Giannis, do you want to beat the Warriors in the NBA finals?

 

[HiAndTight]

Now that the warriors have beat the rockets, between Denver and Portland who does everyone think has the best shot at beating them, with or without Durant?

 

Personally I don't think either has much of a chance at all.

 

 

I think Denver does. They've got a unique superstar who I think Golden State is gonna have all kinda of problems with. I don't think they lose, but I think they have a better chance.

 

I just don't think Portland has the firepower to beat Golden State when they play a similar style of basketball, but with inferior shooters. And that's obviously not a knock on Lillard(or CJ for that matter). I think it was Marc Jackson who said that they have the best shooting backcourt of all time back in 2012 or '13. People scoffed, and it still may not be true. I'd love to see what Jerry West and Gail Goodrich would have done in the modern NBA, but like all sports, we don't.

 

Anyway, Denver just plays a little differently than I think Golden State is used to and I could easily see Jokic getting Looney into foul trouble, Denver can definitely shoot.

 

And who else can score for the Warriors right now? You have Steph, if healthy, he can always get his own shot...Klay can hit contested 3's, but he's kinda like Middleton in that area. He can't really take it to the hoop on his own, he doesn't excel in that area, beating his guy off the dribble. The win by creating chaos plays, tap outs, second chance shoots, getting Steph and Klay open that way, or in transition, guys lose track of their man and Steph comes down and hits a 30 footer 3 seconds into the shot clock.

 

This Warriors team is extremely dangerous, but I think it's more likely that a team that plays a slower place and is better in the half court is more likely to beat them than one who plays very similar to them.

[HiAndTight]

Other than a rough stretch just before they acquired Hill, I think the Bucks and Warriors have been on a collision course nearly all year. That has a chance to be one for the ages. Honestly I think I would prefer if Durant were healthy for it, too.

 

But to be clear, the Raptors and Sixers are very good too. The Raptors have been really strong all year, and the Sixers benefit from shorter playoff rotations as much as any team in recent memory.

 

 

As I pointed out, there really wasn't a "rough stretch" before they acquired Hill. You've REALLY turned that rhetoric up since he's had his huge playoff series. The Bucks were playing well when they acquired Hill, including a blowout of the Warriors.

 

 

But I'm curious, I've read the last couple pages....where is it that you come down on George Hill again? LOL...my god. He's a very good backup PG and he's played his best Basketball in the playoffs. Which isn't a huge shock I guess as he's played in playoff teams nearly his entire career and came in and steadied the team after that ugly game 1 loss.

 

But the recency bias. Hill being more important than Middleton? Hill is the second most important player on the team? Talk about recency bias.

 

George Hill's a very nice player. But my god, you'd think he was Oscar if you just read your posts from this thread.

 

 

Hill's best strech of playoff basketball+Bledsoe looking bad at times+Kyries worst stretch=Hill going from underrated to overrated due to recency bias.

[adambr2]

Someone who knows more about NBA transactions than me -- what are the chances they could unload Snell and his salary in the offseason to give us more flexibility? What would they have to include to incentivize someone taking on Snell?

[HiAndTight]

You can't just restructure Hill's contract. I'm about 99% sure they lose his Bird Rights if they don't pick up his option. If you're thinking of examples of players who restructured in the past, it's because they had player options, not team options, or because the team could lose the player's Bird Rights and still fit the restructured contract under the cap or use exception money.

 

Why is Hill viewed as the guy who would cost too much luxury tax, and not one of the other options? That's equivalent to saying he's the last priority. Everyone else comes first, and by the time you pay Hill you're now too far into the tax to afford him? Why isn't is that you have to pay Hill first, and therefore you would have to go too far into the luxury tax to keep Mirotic, Brogdon, or Lopez? Hill has been the 2nd-most important player of the bunch for a long time now. Heck, sometimes I watched multiple entire games and forget that Brogdon was even hurt until they showed him on the bench. Guarantee you we wouldn't fail to notice Hill's absence if we had to watch Brogdon, Frazier, DDV, or some minimum contract play PG 15+ mpg (and more when Bledsoe is being a headcase).

 

 

Lopez was pretty good during the regular season but I saw some advanced stats showing the defense was often better without him. Having him anchor the paint and block shots is a way of compensating for his inability to defend the perimeter. His mobility is really bad and guys like that are getting played off the floor regularly. His contract situation also brings the most uncertainty and gums up the works for all other negotiations because they don't have his Bird Rights, and there's reason to doubt whether he's really as good of a 3-point shooter as he showed this year. I don't want to be paying him the full MLE when he reaches the current Pau Gasol phase of his career. With this system and coaching staff, I definitely think they can replace him with just the taxpayer MLE, and that's all I would pay him.

 

I think it's pretty simple.

1-This off-season is going to establish what the Bucks look like for the foreseeable future. Meaning the next 5-6 years. Giannis is going to be making nearly 60 MILLION dollars in the 5th year of his contract extension that we're all hoping he signs. You seem to be looking no further than next season, ignoring the fact that we have very little in the way of assets moving forward to acquire players or to add the players we'll be losing. And with Hill's injury history, I'd assume you're not counting on him for 4+ years like you would anyone else on that list sans Lopez.

 

SO, who and WHAT do you prioritize? Your core. Khris Middleton isn't a Max level player. But he'll get max level offers. We don't have much choice but to offer that to him. MAYBE he's willing to take a little under the max, save the Bucks a few million, but I don't think that's likely with Indy and Brooklyn lurking and reportedly interested in him.

 

So for the next few years, almost all of your main pieces are going to be the players you bring back from this current team. There's always the vet who may come in on a cheaper deal(Hill could possibly be one of those guys, maybe we sign him to the MLE before we sign the other players) via a buyout, but that's just rounding out the roster.

 

You're not going to have a chance to pick up talent like Middleton, Mirotic, Brogdon moving forward. We won't own our 1st round picks and we've traded most of our 2nd round picks for the near future as well. So it's this core. You either try to keep them together or you believe that Giannis is so good we can just find guys like Middleton, Brogdon and Mirotic off the scrap heap without the benefit of many draft picks in the near future past this year.

 

So which players do you want? You want to move on from one of your core players, a younger player like Brogdon who just put up a 50/40/90 season, is a good, versatile defender and who despite not having a great first step, has the size and physical strength to get to and score at the rim for the next 4 years in favor of Hill, a backup PG who is 33, and who will be here for one season? You're hurting your team for the next 4-5 years in favor of what MIGHT be an upgrade for one season. Of course Brogdon is just the 8th player in NBA history to put up a 90/50/40 season, he's a very good defender, he's physical at just under 6'6 with a big wingspan. He's not the on-ball defender Hill is, but he's a bigger, stronger and he fits into the Bucks offense perfectly. But now, you let Brogdon go in order to pick up Hill's 19 million dollar option to play 20 minutes as our backup PG and then the following year you have neither of them. I mean, sure, you do have Hill's bird rights at the point, but now he's a 34, with an injury history. And if you want to keep lamenting Brogdon's injuries and using the suggestion that he's got foot issues, he had one foot injury in college 6 years ago. He came back and didn't miss a beat. This isn't Bill Walton we're signing after he played with the Celts for a year. the "toll" injuries have taken on him have been greatly exaggerated by one person. The players who struggle with that type of injury are the ones who keep hurting it, it never heals, then you develop ancilary problems and they're usually because of abnormally large feet. Like Yao, Oden or the aforementioned Walton. This latest injury was a completely different type of injury that's a very common injury in sports.

 

 

Then, there also seems to be this idea that you can just replace guys like Middleton because you have wing depth. No, you can't. You can't just replace an all-star who does everything pretty well and can shoot, and who is a perfect fit with Giannis by committee. You need that guy who's capable of hitting the tough shots with players in his face in order to keep some of the pressure off Giannis. Middleton is the perfect complimentary star next to Giannis. He gets his touches, but he seems to have his ego in check and doesn't question who the leader of the team is.

 

That's the problem with one guy being an all-star and one guy being almost an afterthought in a trade to free up cap space in a trade when they both play well in the post-season. The expectations are so VASTLY different, that when Middleton plays 33 MPG, shoots 47 pct from 3 and hits over 90 pct of his FT's while scoring 20 PPG, it gets overlooked because that's what you expect your #2 star to do. And he did that while having to play Heyward, Tatum, Brown on defense and he did a very good job with all of them. Meanwhile, Hill plays a little over 20 MPG, shoots extremely well and plays extremely well, but we're going nuts because he's a guy we got in a salary dump and we don't expect it.

George Hill going up for a lob, that stands out more because he's a backup PG who is playing the best series of his career. And thank god he did because Bledsoe shrunk at times on the offensive end. I don't think the series is any different if you replace Hill with Brogdon. Certainly not if Brogdon out-performed his regular season shooting to the degree that Hill did.

 

And again, that leads to people saying things, like, "I forgot Brogdon was out, but I guarantee you would notice Hill's absence." Do you? First of all, when you win 4 straight by 10+ points, it's a little easier to not worry about your teams best shooter being out. But if this would have been a closer series, if Kyrie would have just played average, not had the worst shooting slump of his career, and had Giannis not dominated the Celts, I think you'd have noticed that Brogdon wasn't playing. That's just a ridiculous thing to say in my opinion.

 

Hill had the best series of his life, but he's not the Bucks 2nd most important player. He's not more important than Middleton, the only other reliable scorer who can take the pressure off Giannis, he's not more important than Bledsoe, he's not more important IN MY OPINION than Brogdon.....especially not to the future of the Bucks franchise. And if you're one to worry about a player injuring one foot as a Soph. in college, coming back completely healthy and then injuring his other foot in a totally different manner 6 YEARS apart, how are you not worried about George Hill's long term health prognosis when he's dealt with back injuries? Not that I think the few injuries he has are all that important, but using your criteria....which remember, at one point was how it was becoming almost an emergency situation that we needed to get rid of Brogdon(don't recall the exact words, but that was essentially the point).

 

But here's the most important thing. Even if you were to agree that Hill is more important than Brogdon...and I'd suggest looking past the recency bias, but that's hard to do. But assuming you are. The difference is hardly a significant one and certainly not one where you choose to re-sign the older guy for ONE year rather than hold onto the 26-year old for the next 4. The only reason Hill would win out in that scenario is if you believe the Bucks are likely to lose Giannis....and I'd argue, given how he's taken the losses of players like Thon Maker in the past, he'd be rather upset if we lose key players from this team, especially Khris Middleton and Malcolm Brogdon who are both core pieces and should be for the next 4 or 5 years.

 

 

I love the spark that Pat Connaughton, Sterling Brown, Ersan, and especially George Hill have provided the Bucks this post-season. They've held serve while Giannis has gone to the bench in foul trouble or just needed a breather.

 

But lets not get it twisted. Just because you're accustomed to Middleton playing at a high level and you're not used to seeing Hill play as well as he has this series, Middleton or Bledsoe are the 2nd most important players in terms of winning or losing. In game one, Bledsoe played so poorly on both ends, he helped the Celtics get into a rhythm and we saw what they were capable of. The rest of the series, he was sporadic offensively, but he was incredible defensively.

 

And I love George Hill. I liked him 5-6 years ago(not as much as Indy did when they traded Kawhi for him) and I like him a lot now. But he didn't turn around this season for the Bucks, that argument has already been debunked. The Bucks weren't ready to implode. They had blown out multiple good teams, including Golden State and they were something like 18-9. Hadn't yet hit their stride, but they also hadn't lost back to back games and they were playing good basketball. I remember one of the reasons why they were "literally on the verge of imploding" was because they lost to Portland. Yes, the same Portland team now that's a game away from advancing to the WCF's...and actually, it was a better one as they've lost Nurkic since then...and they were leading the west at that point. They lost to one of the best teams in the West, possibly a team they'll see in the finals, they also beat that team by 43 points, they blew out Golden State as I mentioned, they lost 4 or 5 games in OT or by a couple points and they beat Toronto a couple of times, Denver twice, again, Portland. What part of that suggests the season needed to be "turned around?" That's just a false narrative that only one person is pushing.

 

And as much as I'd love to see the Bucks bring back this entire roster, this isn't NBA 2K or whatever where the money isn't real. Assuming you sign Middleton to ~30 million, Mirotic and Brogdon to ~25 combined(which I think is a safe assumption in terms of what they'll get, not that we'll sign both per say) you're going to be well into that luxury tax. And yes, I do count Hill last because...call me crazy, I prioritize keeping the younger players who will be here for multiple years when the Bucks are hopefully winning multiple titles. In that scenario(or really any), the team's almost certainly not going to bring Hill back at 19 million dollars. Of course, maybe we'll be able to test out lukes theory and Middleton will sign with another team, regardless whether the Bucks offer the max. Maybe then we'll see if we can just replace Middleton with our depth of relatively unproven wings and see if Hill really is the 2nd most important player on this team. I'd prefer to not have to find out....especially given how Giannis wants to win and this would be the year he has to make his decision.

 

If this was baseball, this would be an easy decision. Turn down the team option and negotiate a reasonable 2-3 year deal with him. But it's not and nobody is paying George Hill 19 million next year. It's just realistic given the nature of the CBA. But if they really want, sign him to that MLE.

 

So for now, I'm going to enjoy watching him and hope he can continue playing some of the best basketball of his caree through the next round of the playoffs.

[HiAndTight]

Someone who knows more about NBA transactions than me -- what are the chances they could unload Snell and his salary in the offseason to give us more flexibility? What would they have to include to incentivize someone taking on Snell?

 

 

Well, it'd have to be a team with salary cap room, and I'm guessing you'd have to give up your 1st. I don't really like that idea as you REALLY need to keep trying to infuse young talent into this roster.

 

I'd like to see them move Snell and Ersan this off-season. Ersan not because he's vastly overpaid, but because he's actually got value, but because I'd like to see Mirotic re-sign and stick around and because I think DJ Wilson will eventually slide into the role that Ersan plays. Ersan is such a smart player, that'd be a concern, but Wilson seems like a pretty savvy BB player as well and he's younger, cheaper and more athletic.

 

Ideally, we trade them together to a team that's tanking and pick up a useful vet like we did this year when we dumped Henson and Delly's deals for a 1st round pick.

[HiAndTight]

Giannis, do you want to beat the Warriors in the NBA finals?

 

 

 

Giannis has the best personality of any NBA superstar IMO.

 

I was just reading an article by the old "un-named" executive, and he was talking about Giannis, and he basically said, he's almost certainly staying in a small markete. He doesn't care about the bright lights...a phrase I don't really get, we've got some bright lights as well, but moving on, he doesn't care about the market, he likes Milwaukee and as long as they're a team that's competitive, he's happy to stay there.

 

I'd assume this guy knows this from talking to agents who are either Giannis' agent or know his agent.

 

So he's good staying in Milwaukee. That jives with everything we've heard.

He's extremely loyal(see reaction to Kidd firing, Thon trade). That's always a good thing.

He's got a good relationship with Bud it appears.

 

He's got a good sense of humor and he likes to play around...most of his commercials are funny.

 

But on the court, he's an absolute killer. He doesn't have that Jordan mentality, I don't think I've ever seen anyone who does, but he's there with other greats like KG and the like.

 

And finally, he doesn't talk a lot, but when he does, it's funny as hell. Like when he was asked about the impact Marcus Smart had on game 4 and Giannis took about 30 seconds to look at the stat sheet, Middleton giggled, obviously knowing what Giannis was doing...as it was pretty dry, and then he goes on to praise him effusively, talking about how he's their heart and soul. So you can't put up anything on the bulletin board, he didn't say anything...but he made his point. The Celts savior wasn't saving them!

 

 

We genuinely may have the best Football player, Baseball player and Basketball player in the game at the same time(you have to kinda play around with the time frame to make Yelich the best baseball player when Trout is playing, but it could be argued at least).

 

Great time to be a Wisconsin sports fan!

[DuWayne Steurer]

There's not a lot of data (9 games), and Giannis's numbers are skewed (obviously) by how much defensive pressure he's getting. But this is interesting none the less...

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxHnETOh5Gj/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=embed_video_watch_again

[homer]

I mean it's like a difference of -3 or something? I think a lot of that has to do with just how damn good the Bucks bench has been. Like you said, not enough data points.

[coolhandluke121]

 

 

As I pointed out, there really wasn't a "rough stretch" before they acquired Hill.

 

Saying so doesn't make it true. No way someone who watched all their games in November would argue that they weren't playing much worse than they did all year. They went 8-6 in November, losing to the Suns, Hornets, and Grizzlies, and then gave an encore by losing to the Knicks on December 1st. Just business as usual for one of the greatest regular season teams of all time, right?

 

Don't try to "point out" that they were playing well until you go back and watch the replays of those games. Enjoy watching Dellavedova play PG again.

 

Really odd time to argue that I've been wrong about Hill all along by the way.

[GAME05]

I'm almost more tempted to root for Toronto today since Philadelphia played us better during the regular season and I think we match up better against Toronto.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm almost more tempted to root for Toronto today since Philadelphia played us better during the regular season and I think we match up better against Toronto.

 

I think injuries were a factor in several regular season games, and of course several games were played before all 3 teams made some pretty significant trades. I distinctly recall a Philly win when the Bucks were missing Brogdon and Hill was still working his way back from injury and played about 10 minutes. Kawhi and Giannis both missed the same game once. Lowry was out for a game I believe. I'm not reading too much into the head-to-head regular season results.

 

Both teams have looked bad at times this series, but that's not unusual when two very good teams are evenly matched. One thing to note is that both teams have very weak benches and benefit more from shorter rotations than the Bucks do. I still think the Bucks overwhelm either team with talent, strategy, and depth, but I actually give them a better chance against Philly because I think Embiid and Simmons are kind of immature and Philly is mostly just a bunch of very talented mismatched parts on a Frankenstein team. Kind of a rich man's Boston, if you will.

[wildcat83]

Philly offense has been brutally bad so far tonight.

[Jenkins5]

Coolhandluke is right.... Hill’s 20 minutes of 6 points, 2.5 rebounds, 2 assist, 1 steal a game transformed our entire team from December to end of March. His plus/minus of 4 only had him behind Giannis, Bledsoe, Middleton, Lopez, and Brogdon. Those guys were only at 6 or greater. He is only 33 and best seasons are still ahead of him!

 

Basic stats & sarcasm aside. Hill was our top defender with a 98 drating which is great. However is offensive rating is inline with Snell, Sterling, Wilson at 107... Our big 5 all between 112-114 rating. Net rating again he is solid with 8.8 but our whole big 5 is over 10.0. His true shooting of 53% is nearly 10% less than Brogdon & Lopez and still behind Middleton. His usage is only 13.8.

 

I will not discredit the value Hill has brought to team. He is a strong vet leader who is competitive and has been here before. He is solid on offense and great defender. He helps our bench play at level it does. However.... it is short sighted and simply oozing over his performance in playoffs that leads to analysis of how important he is to future. Realistically he is just a good, older vet, who helps our bench. I like Hill but don’t think he is above critical core pieces. Malcolm is 7 years younger, better offensively, and not too far behind defensively. Middleton may not be a Max player but he is very good for this team and what we need of him. He’s a borderline all-star who can shot. With Giannis & Bledsoe attacking, a reliable scorer who plays good D is important. Unless you are getting Klay (not happening, coming to NBA he voiced how much he didn’t want to come here) Middleton is important.

 

Lopez you can’t replace easily. Think he is unsung hero who made this season possible. He spaced floor well, hit ton of 3s. Very effective in pick and role win Giannis. That is all awesome but his defense and how he has anchored our team all year is key.

 

I personally think Malcolm is more important than Middleton simply because he is more complete. He can shoot, drive, play D, doesn’t turn ball over, is smart and a leader. With a system like Bud those are all key. I don’t think he can score like Middleton but just offers more to team.

 

Lopez

Brogdon

Middleton

Mirotic

Hill

[coolhandluke121]

Coolhandluke is right.... Hill’s 20 minutes of 6 points, 2.5 rebounds, 2 assist, 1 steal a game transformed our entire team from December to end of March. His plus/minus of 4 only had him behind Giannis, Bledsoe, Middleton, Lopez, and Brogdon. Those guys were only at 6 or greater. He is only 33 and best seasons are still ahead of him!

 

Basic stats & sarcasm aside. Hill was our top defender with a 98 drating which is great. However is offensive rating is inline with Snell, Sterling, Wilson at 107... Our big 5 all between 112-114 rating. Net rating again he is solid with 8.8 but our whole big 5 is over 10.0. His true shooting of 53% is nearly 10% less than Brogdon & Lopez and still behind Middleton. His usage is only 13.8.

 

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

 

Not gonna get very far using bbref ratings, which are based on estimates of the impact on box score stats and not even based on what actually happens to the team's fortunes when the player is on the court - to say nothing of the grand folly of net ratings, which is that they're not even adjusted for lineups. Hill carries bench squads on a regular basis and doesn't have the benefit of playing with the other starters all the time. There's a reason Brogdon and Iguodala have some of the best net ratings in the NBA and it's not because they're great; it's because their coaches love to play them as the 5th cog in great lineups, whereas the top 4 guys on each team have their net ratings brought down because their minutes are often staggered to carry weaker lineups. BBref is a joke compared to RPM, which is at least asking the right question and basing the rating on actual empirical team results, not projected results based on an individual's stats. It also at least makes an attempt to adjust for lineups, and does a really good job of it when there are a few years worth of data on a player in different situations.

 

The empty box score stats mean even less. Hill stepped up and replaced Brogdon's scoring as soon as Brogdon got hurt. In the meantime, he just did whatever the team needed, which is far more valuable. He can be Brogdon when the team needs to him to be, or he can be the Tony Allen of pg's when they need that. He can be both at the same time. He has a Conley Jr. no-flash, all-substance sense of tempo and ball movement. When Brogdon is asked to be more than a complementary scorer and initiate the offense or carry a bench unit, he has to dribble with his head down and turn his back to his defender to protect the ball against pressure and he can't get his shot off quickly enough when he's not wide open. He struggles to stay in front of guys when he's not drawing the easiest defensive assignment on the team, and he can't get separation when he doesn't have the other team's worst defender guarding him.

 

But hey, PPGZ and box scores, right? I'm not gonna worry about convincing anyone here anymore though. I'll continue to let the results speak for themselves, and I'm confident this coaching staff and front office knows how to look past the box scores and measure impact. That's how they got here in the first place, and they won't overrate Brogdon for his scoring anymore than they did Jabari. (Which is not say Brogdon is not worlds better than Jabari, but only to say that there are many ways to impact a team positively regardless of PPGZ and Hill does more of them than Brogdon.)

[tmwiese55]

The Bucks are something like 172-6 in games Giannis and Hill both play. Obviously that's exaggeration, but the stat is crazy if you look it up. I wanna say it's only 6 losses, could be less though.

 

I think what ya'll are missing in the point isn't that he's saying Hill is some massively awesome superstar player, it's that they don't have backup G if he's not there. Whereas, there is lots of bigs and wings.

[coolhandluke121]

The Bucks are something like 172-6 in games Giannis and Hill both play. Obviously that's exaggeration, but the stat is crazy if you look it up. I wanna say it's only 6 losses, could be less though.

 

I think what ya'll are missing in the point isn't that he's saying Hill is some massively awesome superstar player, it's that they don't have backup G if he's not there. Whereas, there is lots of bigs and wings.

 

Right, thank you. I didn't say he was their 2nd-best player, although I did say he was the 2nd-most important. Pretty simple question of depth on the wings.

 

However, I did say he has been their 2nd-best player often in the last few months, and it's really about being an impact defender who also seems to stabilize the offense every time he comes in the game. It doesn't always show up in the box score (although he does have an efficient 13 ppg in games he's played over 20 minutes since coming back from injury), but we often see Khris, Lopez, Giannis, and especially Bledsoe force things on offense and Hill gives them a more mature vibe hunting for a better shot when he's out there.

[tmwiese55]

I actually think Hill was their second best player in that Boston series. Doesn't mean he's 2nd best overall, it's just a small sample where he played great. Plus, all this stuff is tied to each since it's a team. IE, could he play that well if he had to play 35 mins and almost always against the other teams 1sts, things like that. Very likely not, he's in the perfect role right now and he's killing it. 6 months ago his contract situation probably looked way different than now since he's showing the league the exact role he can thrive in as a backup combo G. He's not getting some huge contract again, but a lot of teams will be calling him. Heck, I bet if you took Simmons off Philly and replaced him with Hill they would be a better team than they are now due to the fit with the rest of the team.

 

Just ride it out and hopefully they can win it all. It's going to be a very interesting offseason. Horst has been great so far in heisting these Hill and Niko trades so hopefully he can pull this offseason off too. then he can probably take a breath for a while after an extremely busy first couple years.

[GAME05]

I think I was actually more nervous about Boston than I am against Toronto, not that they don't have a great team. Can't be a good sign for Toronto that for the last 5 or so minutes of the game nobody on that team was aggressive enough to take a shot and they all just dumped it back to Leonard. Maybe that will impact whether or not Milwaukee chooses to come with help defense or keep guarding the perimeter man depending on who has the ball.

[HiAndTight]

 

 

As I pointed out, there really wasn't a "rough stretch" before they acquired Hill.

 

Saying so doesn't make it true. No way someone who watched all their games in November would argue that they weren't playing much worse than they did all year. They went 8-6 in November, losing to the Suns, Hornets, and Grizzlies, and then gave an encore by losing to the Knicks on December 1st. Just business as usual for one of the greatest regular season teams of all time, right?

 

Don't try to "point out" that they were playing well until you go back and watch the replays of those games. Enjoy watching Dellavedova play PG again.

 

Really odd time to argue that I've been wrong about Hill all along by the way.

 

 

You sure seem to think it does.

 

And I know it may seem like an "odd time to point out you were wrong about Hill," since he had a great series and I think you have made it a point to mention him in every other thread, but you can't just make things up and pretend they didn't happen. Teams lose games throughout a regular season.

 

 

You LOVE to point out how they lost to a couple of bad teams.

 

They beat Portland by 43 points.

They beat Philly by 15.

Toronto by 15.

Golden State by 23.

Denver by 7.

Denver by 6.

Toronto by 5.

 

The four games you mentioned, they lost by a combined 10 points. Tell me again how their season was falling apart.

 

Hill made them better. Just making things up and pretending their season was falling apart before we traded him again doesn't make it so.

[HiAndTight]

Coolhandluke is right.... Hill’s 20 minutes of 6 points, 2.5 rebounds, 2 assist, 1 steal a game transformed our entire team from December to end of March. His plus/minus of 4 only had him behind Giannis, Bledsoe, Middleton, Lopez, and Brogdon. Those guys were only at 6 or greater. He is only 33 and best seasons are still ahead of him!

 

Basic stats & sarcasm aside. Hill was our top defender with a 98 drating which is great. However is offensive rating is inline with Snell, Sterling, Wilson at 107... Our big 5 all between 112-114 rating. Net rating again he is solid with 8.8 but our whole big 5 is over 10.0. His true shooting of 53% is nearly 10% less than Brogdon & Lopez and still behind Middleton. His usage is only 13.8.

 

I will not discredit the value Hill has brought to team. He is a strong vet leader who is competitive and has been here before. He is solid on offense and great defender. He helps our bench play at level it does. However.... it is short sighted and simply oozing over his performance in playoffs that leads to analysis of how important he is to future. Realistically he is just a good, older vet, who helps our bench. I like Hill but don’t think he is above critical core pieces. Malcolm is 7 years younger, better offensively, and not too far behind defensively. Middleton may not be a Max player but he is very good for this team and what we need of him. He’s a borderline all-star who can shot. With Giannis & Bledsoe attacking, a reliable scorer who plays good D is important. Unless you are getting Klay (not happening, coming to NBA he voiced how much he didn’t want to come here) Middleton is important.

 

Lopez you can’t replace easily. Think he is unsung hero who made this season possible. He spaced floor well, hit ton of 3s. Very effective in pick and role win Giannis. That is all awesome but his defense and how he has anchored our team all year is key.

 

I personally think Malcolm is more important than Middleton simply because he is more complete. He can shoot, drive, play D, doesn’t turn ball over, is smart and a leader. With a system like Bud those are all key. I don’t think he can score like Middleton but just offers more to team.

 

Lopez

Brogdon

Middleton

Mirotic

Hill

 

 

 

It's just this myth that the Bucks were falling apart without George Hill that's so ridiculous. We got off to a red hot start, we lost a few close games, an OT game by 2 to the Knicks, we lost out West by 2 to the Suns and now suddenly at 17-8 our season was on the verge of collapse.

 

I get it. I like Hill. I'd like him more if someone didn't try making this and then Hill had the best series of his NBA career and that person now has to thump his chest in every-other-post he makes about him. But he's a nice player.

 

He sure as heck isn't our second most important player and even if you want to argue that he is(because I'm kinda done banging my head against that wall) there is no logical argument you can make that he's their most important player moving forward over the next 4 years. That's the period of time these guys will most likely be signing for.

 

And you can believe all you want that if the Bucks are deep into the luxury tax before Hill, the owners are going to pony up 3.25 million dollars per million more we spend, meaning Hill would effectively cost us 60 million dollars, but how many owners are going to do that? Where have you heard of a team or owner willing to do that outside of Dan Gilbert in Cleveland willing to pay that type of stupid money for JR Smith because LeBron wanted him and he had to keep LeBron happy as long as he could?

 

So that's why Hill figures in last. Because he's the oldest and least valuable going forward in building what's going to be the core of your team over the next 4 to 5 years, ie, Giannis prime years. Middleton, Brogdon, Mirotic, all in their primes. Or you go with what CHL is suggesting, prioritize Hill, lose Brogdon or Middleton in the process so you can keep an older PG as a backup.....at 19 million dollars next year.

 

Again, a really nice player. Really good role player who has just probably played the best 4 game stretch he has in a few years, but he's a luxury, and one I highly doubt the Bucks are eager to pay.

[stalton]

https://youtu.be/jUBsqfkBmYE

 

I thought this was very well detailed on how selfish Kyrie was this series.