Kimbrel?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

actually i was talking about the pitching Joey

 

I get it ... just saying that there might just be a limit to how much proactiveness they can accomplish.

[RollieTime]

actually i was talking about the pitching Joey

 

I can understand where you’re coming from about getting the pitching now and having guys pitch for us all season. But what if Chacin gets hurt and someone like Woodruff underperforms? There wouldn’t be much wiggle room to make it work financially at the deadline if the payroll is maxed out prior to the season starting.

[OnTheBlack]

And it's not an arbitrary move.

 

Now if my billionaire boss wants to improve the team HE owns and HE is responsible for and is willing to spend even more money to do so, then we've got zero problems.

 

 

If I'm Stearns and I've decided that Kimbrel (at his price) isn't what the team needs, and Mark A comes in and says "pay it/do it/get it done", and then Kimbrel flops, and there isn't any money left to do my job at the deadline because we spent money on the big FA reliever that the owner wanted, I'd be extremely pissed.

 

Stearns has a vision for how he wants to build this team. Mark A hired him because he trusted Stearns' vision. Stepping on his toes in this manner disrupts the entire process and the vision.

 

 

I'm just not seeing the same logic.

 

Yes, Stearns has a vision. He's a visionary. However, it's not as if he has this idea of the type of pitcher he wants and Mark Attansio is coming in and forcing a pitcher on him. What he'd be doing is simply paying more money for the a pitcher that Stearns OBVIOUSLY wants and who fits his vision.

 

Whether Kimbrel flops shouldn't play any role into how Stearns views the transaction whatsoever. Of course Kimbrel has never "flopped" in his career as he's been at his best a elite HOF'er and at worst a very good pitcher, but what he does after the signing, according to the logic you're using shouldn't really matter. It's about Stearns vision. Again, his vision includes Kimbrel, just at his price.

 

Now for some reason we're assuming that after everything Mark Attanasio has done, and in this scenario we're assuming that he's going to come in and spend MORE money on a pitcher since we've had two arguably catastrophic injuries to two of our three best relievers, that the very same owner who has spent this extra money is going to go to Stearns at the deadline and say, "nope, we're not gonna spend any more money?"

 

 

And if Stearns is one to really get upset because his boss and the owner comes in and overrules him by spending more money on a pitcher he wants anyway just because that pitcher didn't sign for what Stearns deemed to be the right price, then Stearns is a bit of a diva. I don't believe that's the case.

 

 

 

Finally, why are we just assuming that our GM and Owner are pulling in opposite directions? We're lucky enough to have the TYPE of owner that we could envision spending the extra money in order to put his team over the top(or frankly just to get them back to where we thought we were just a few weeks ago). I'd assume that Stearns would be thrilled that he'd have an owner that'd have his back, be willing to say, "I was the one who insisted we sign Kimbrel and pay an exorbitant price for him."

 

There seems to be a symbiotic relationship between the two and it's being presented on here as being a contentious one. I'm just saying, even if it's the later, I'm not sure how the GM gets upset for getting what he wants and all it costs is the owner a little more money. It's not like we're talking about Attanasio forcing Stearns to trade Ray for Will Smith or anything. We're JUST talking about a guy the GM already wants getting signed, but for more than the GM wants to pay.

[brewmann04]

I think we have some guys that can step in if we are down a starter and at the deadline the cost usual are very big.

[OnTheBlack]

actually i was talking about the pitching Joey

 

I get it ... just saying that there might just be a limit to how much proactiveness they can accomplish.

 

 

Sure, you can only do so much. However I said on here all along that I thought this team should have been focused on adding a impact reliever as opposed to spending 10 million on Moose, a redundant 3rd basemen who is being forced to play 2nd base.

 

Jeffress was never likely to replicate last years production...you can't blame anyone for Knebel or Jeffress going down, but you did have reason to suspect the BP was going to be weaker than it was last year.

 

Aside from Jeffress just not likely being as good as he was last year, you're taking Burnes who was dominant, Woodruff who was dominant, especially late in the year, and Peralta all out of that pen. With question marks in the rotation, signing Adam Ottavino, a guy as dominant as anyone last year.

 

Grandal was a great signing who to some degree fell into our lap, so I don't think that was being proactive. Signing another dominant reliever to shorten games even moreso would have been more proactive IMO.

 

But we didn't. And who knows, Knebel has suffered with a UCL issue since 2014 in Texas...maybe he's back dominating this year and Jeffress does get healthy and replicate last years success. It just feels right now this team is one dominant reliever away after most likely losing two.

[OnTheBlack]

actually i was talking about the pitching Joey

 

I can understand where you’re coming from about getting the pitching now and having guys pitch for us all season. But what if Chacin gets hurt and someone like Woodruff underperforms? There wouldn’t be much wiggle room to make it work financially at the deadline if the payroll is maxed out prior to the season starting.

 

 

Again, this is where I take issue with this logic. You think Attansio is going to spend 150 million and then went it comes down to adding a couple million dollars at the trade deadline to add a piece, he's going to scoff?

 

That seems far fetched. The term in for a penny, in for a pound comes to mind.

[OnTheBlack]

I think we have some guys that can step in if we are down a starter and at the deadline the cost usual are very big.

 

 

Absolutely. But there are a lot of ways to add guys. And we don't need to add an ace to this team.

 

You can add a couple complimentary pieces from a KC type team(just throwing out a team that's likely to be bad and selling at the deadline) for relatively cheap at the deadline.

 

 

The problem may be that we're in SUCH a competitive division, and an improved NL, how much of a gut punch would it be to go out and add an elite catcher, one who's unlikely to be back next year, bring back Moose, have our team set up pretty much exactly how we want it for THIS YEAR(I believe this is going to be the Brewers best chance to win a WS) and then with the tough first half schedule, you find yourself 7-8 games out by the ASB?

 

That may happen either way, but if it happens because we've got unproven relievers blowing leads regularly, it's going to hurt that much more.

[OnTheBlack]

Just for the record, I appreciate the other opinions on this and after reading my posts, I hope my tone isn't coming off as too confrontational. I respect the different opinions and just enjoy the debate and am not trying to offend.

[Brew crew 92]

I know a lot of people are saying we need to keep money for a possible trade @ the trade deadline which i understand but why not be proactive instead of having to wait till the deadline and maybe overpay?

 

I think that’s a great idea good sir, help us earlier in the year when we’re short in the pen and have prob the hardest opening schedule in the history of baseball STARING US IN THE FACE. I haven’t heard many if any talk about our ridiculous schedule. Just yet reason number 56,562 to sign HIM and quit playing around. Geez

[Brew crew 92]

actually i was talking about the pitching Joey

 

I can understand where you’re coming from about getting the pitching now and having guys pitch for us all season. But what if Chacin gets hurt and someone like Woodruff underperforms? There wouldn’t be much wiggle room to make it work financially at the deadline if the payroll is maxed out prior to the season starting.

 

Get the pen help now. We need it now. We’re facing a daunting schedule, by FAR toughest in baseball down 2 HIGH LEVERAGE pen arms, I’m sorry but this board gonna explode when Burnes goes 8 strong only to have Albers give it up. Or Barnes or Williams or..... cause Hader Guerra can’t pitch.

[RollieTime]

actually i was talking about the pitching Joey

 

I can understand where you’re coming from about getting the pitching now and having guys pitch for us all season. But what if Chacin gets hurt and someone like Woodruff underperforms? There wouldn’t be much wiggle room to make it work financially at the deadline if the payroll is maxed out prior to the season starting.

 

 

Again, this is where I take issue with this logic. You think Attansio is going to spend 150 million and then went it comes down to adding a couple million dollars at the trade deadline to add a piece, he's going to scoff?

 

That seems far fetched. The term in for a penny, in for a pound comes to mind.

 

That’s not at all what I’m saying. He would definitely spend a couple million more for a piece. There’s a big difference between a couple million and adding an impact pitcher where you need to pay him $12 million for the rest of the season. It makes more sense to start at $130 and add 3 or 4 pieces mid season to fill the holes that arise during the season whether it’s from injuries or lack of production, than to start the season at $150 million and have a lot of areas that need to be addressed, but not much money left where it makes it more difficult to take on a big name guy on a large contract plus addressing the other areas of need.

 

At some point, there is a financial limit though. Whether it’s $150 million or $170 million, the money runs out at some point and you can’t spend more because you just don’t have it.

[brewmann04]

Just for the record, I appreciate the other opinions on this and after reading my posts, I hope my tone isn't coming off as too confrontational. I respect the different opinions and just enjoy the debate and am not trying to offend.

no issues hear everyone has their thoughts.

[FVBrewerFan]

For all those clamoring to have Mark A pull out his checkbook, do we have any idea if the dollar amount this year is even an issue? Could it be Kimbrel is still holding out for 4 or even 5 year contract?

 

Just seems like all the talk surrounds this years salary, $150mm, etc. Thats only a small part of the overall picture. Even if he agreed to one year, what if its for $28mm? Just do it right? At some point its a panic move to just do whatever it takes.

[Brew crew 92]

I think we have some guys that can step in if we are down a starter and at the deadline the cost usual are very big.

 

 

Absolutely. But there are a lot of ways to add guys. And we don't need to add an ace to this team.

 

You can add a couple complimentary pieces from a KC type team(just throwing out a team that's likely to be bad and selling at the deadline) for relatively cheap at the deadline.

 

 

The problem may be that we're in SUCH a competitive division, and an improved NL, how much of a gut punch would it be to go out and add an elite catcher, one who's unlikely to be back next year, bring back Moose, have our team set up pretty much exactly how we want it for THIS YEAR(I believe this is going to be the Brewers best chance to win a WS) and then with the tough first half schedule, you find yourself 7-8 games out by the ASB?

 

That may happen either way, but if it happens because we've got unproven relievers blowing leads regularly, it's going to hurt that much more.

 

+1

Unfortunately prob here how reds overrated,pirates stink, cards didn’t improve enough to catch up to us, cubs starters old & gonna regress. Prob is Rockies Phillies Mets Nats braves better. Gonna be tough to get wild card this year so we BETTER win the central. Agree Agree best opportunity to win it all in at least 37 years. Why not go all in? Dayton Moore did and they won the series, with clutch hitting and BULLPEN

[OnTheBlack]

I think we have some guys that can step in if we are down a starter and at the deadline the cost usual are very big.

 

 

Absolutely. But there are a lot of ways to add guys. And we don't need to add an ace to this team.

 

You can add a couple complimentary pieces from a KC type team(just throwing out a team that's likely to be bad and selling at the deadline) for relatively cheap at the deadline.

 

 

The problem may be that we're in SUCH a competitive division, and an improved NL, how much of a gut punch would it be to go out and add an elite catcher, one who's unlikely to be back next year, bring back Moose, have our team set up pretty much exactly how we want it for THIS YEAR(I believe this is going to be the Brewers best chance to win a WS) and then with the tough first half schedule, you find yourself 7-8 games out by the ASB?

 

That may happen either way, but if it happens because we've got unproven relievers blowing leads regularly, it's going to hurt that much more.

 

+1

Unfortunately prob here how reds overrated,pirates stink, cards didn’t improve enough to catch up to us, cubs starters old & gonna regress. Prob is Rockies Phillies Mets Nats braves better. Gonna be tough to get wild card this year so we BETTER win the central. Agree Agree best opportunity to win it all in at least 37 years. Why not go all in? Dayton Moore did and they won the series, with clutch hitting and BULLPEN

 

 

 

I think the Cardinals look a lot better. I could see Marcell and Goldy both having big years. I wonder if they see some regression from a couple starters, but they're a big threat. The Reds may not be good enough to beat us, but they're going to be dangerous and they've got several guys who could come up and do some damage come June.

 

And I don't know if you should count on the Cubs to regress. Things went pretty bad for them last year, yet it still took a historic Sept to chase them down. Yu Darvish is likely to be better, Chatwood should also be much better and I doubt Rizzo gets off to such a slow start.

 

I think the NLC is going to beat each other up. Hopefully we can dominate the Pirates like we did for a stretch a while ago and the Reds fall flat.

[BillScottCanRake]

but it's not Stearns team, it's the OWNERS team. It's right there in the title.

 

And it's not an arbitrary move.

 

Now if my billionaire boss wants to improve the team HE owns and HE is responsible for and is willing to spend even more money to do so, then we've got zero problems.

 

What you're describing would be just pure pettiness. Obviously Stearns wants Kimbrel. So the issue is the money. If the guy who is responsible for that money wants to go and say, "screw it, we'll pay the extra money," I can't fathom why someone would be upset with that, ESPECIALLY if it's because that GM drew an arbitrary line in the sand and said he wanted this player, but only for a certain price.

 

This isn't petty because the money being spent doesnt come from some infinite supply. As long as resources are finite, Stearns needs to be allowed to make the decisions he feels are best. Forcing this on him effectively limits him against his will down the road.

 

Unless Attanasio and the other 62% of the folks who own the team are willing to say yes 100% of the time Stearns wants to spend money on players, forcing a contract on him he doesnt agree with is a big deal. Because if the signing ends up being a mistake, and if we have learned anything in sports it is there are 0 guarantees, you have created a situation where:

 

- The man responsible for roster makeup was overruled

- The person who made the mess isn't responsible for fixing the mistake

- You have put the guy responsible for fixing your mistake at a disadvantage because while you were willing to throw money around once now you aren't.

 

The idea that adding payroll isn't a big deal and mistakes can be easily overcome fails to learn from the mistakes of the past. The Brewers suffered because of the contracts they paid guys like Jeffery Hammonds and Jeff Suppan and Marquis Grissom. All of those decisions were driven by ownership more so than the personnel guys.

 

At the end of the day, Attanasio owns the team and can do what he wants. I just hope he doesnt make bad decisions when he has got a great staff under him who are more than capable of doing a good job without interference.

[MrTPlush]

Stearns cares if Attanasio spends money if it backs us into a wall come July. If Attanasio says yes, but says the budget will be tight come July Stearns probably isn’t making the move today. So money can be a problem in Stearns world if we haven’t even played a game and are maxing out the payroll.

[JohnBriggs12]

I'm certainly not worried that Attanasio is spending too much of his money. This is a small market but Attanasio isn't a low end owner. His net worth in 2012 was estimated to be $700 million. I suspect it's more like several billion these days. Revenues in the game rose significantly while Brewers were frugal for a few years. They can't be reckless with huge long term deals but in the short term they can push the envelope well beyond what most thought possible and not damage them down the road.

[BuckyBrewer61]

Based on the speculation out there on social media, I’m guessing the conversations have gone something to the effect of:

 

Stearns: Hey, since no one is offering you a multi-year deal, we’d be willing to give you this high AAV deal for 1-2 years

 

Kimbrel’s agent: Yeah...we’re not getting those multi-year offers, so let’s talk details and I think we can work something out

 

(Jeffress and Knebel go down)

 

Kimbrel’s Agent: Wait, scratch that, you need Craig badly, we want more years and/or money to finish this deal.

 

Stearns. Ok. Then nevermind.

[stoutdude04]

I think most would love to see the Brewers add Kimbrel, but some want him to get it done no matter what it takes, while others pretty clearly realize money is limited no matter how much you have. I for one, would never tell someone what they need to do with their money. There is a reason most of these owners have gotten to where they are. They dont make rash decisions that could jeopardize their wealth. Go get Kimbrel...or not. I dont know which way the chips will fall, but I'd prefer to get it done soon if they are gonna get him. Makes me nervous these guys havent been apart of spring training at all(I realize they are still working our and getting stuff done).

[reillymcshane]

No matter what your thoughts on Mark A and ownership and so forth, could people stop arguing and actually talk about the thread - which is about Kimbrel.

 

If you want to discuss those other things, start another thread instead of hijacking this one. Or converse directly to the other person via PM instead of doing multiple pages of back and forth.

 

Thank you.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Based on the speculation out there on social media, I’m guessing the conversations have gone something to the effect of:

 

Stearns: Hey, since no one is offering you a multi-year deal, we’d be willing to give you this high AAV deal for 1-2 years

 

Kimbrel’s agent: Yeah...we’re not getting those multi-year offers, so let’s talk details and I think we can work something out

 

(Jeffress and Knebel go down)

 

Kimbrel’s Agent: Wait, scratch that, you need Craig badly, we want more years and/or money to finish this deal.

 

Stearns. Ok. Then nevermind.

 

That's where I see things as well regarding Kimbrel. Slow-playing this, if that is what Stearns is doing, is the right course of action I think in this case. It is entirely possible that the Brewers have the only offer out there fort Kimbrel, and he's waiting for the dust to settle this week as far as cuts/injuries/DFAs before deciding what he wants to do. In the end, the Brewers probably make the most sense for Kimbrel, and Kimbrel makes the most sense for the Brewers. But things don't always line up, no matter how many of the dots connect.

[FVBrewerFan]

Based on the speculation out there on social media, I’m guessing the conversations have gone something to the effect of:

 

Stearns: Hey, since no one is offering you a multi-year deal, we’d be willing to give you this high AAV deal for 1-2 years

 

Kimbrel’s agent: Yeah...we’re not getting those multi-year offers, so let’s talk details and I think we can work something out

 

(Jeffress and Knebel go down)

 

Kimbrel’s Agent: Wait, scratch that, you need Craig badly, we want more years and/or money to finish this deal.

 

Stearns. Ok. Then nevermind.

 

Possible, but I think it's more likely this:

 

Stearns: Hey, since no one is offering you a multi-year deal, we’d be willing to give you this high AAV deal for 1-2 years

 

Kimbrel’s agent: He's the best, most proven closer in MLB and there's no way we're not asking for and getting at least a 4 year deal.

 

I think it ends there, and that's where we are. Kimbrel's camp will continue to find other teams that will offer a long-term deal, and keep pushing the Brewers, Braves, etc. for this as well. Eventually, if no one blinks, they'll come back looking for mas money on a one year deal.

 

Could be wrong, but that's what I think is going on. Knebel/Jeffress situation doesn't help, but that doesn't change their demand for multiple years, and the Brewers/Braves unwilling to offer that. Because that doesn't change before, during, after the Knebel/Jeffress news.

[CheezWizHed]

When does the draft compensation for Kimbrel stop being an issue? Its not the worst idea (for Kimbrel) to just wait until someone inevitably gets hurt and get a better deal.

[ewitkows]

After the draft in June