2019 NFL Free Agency/A Busy Day for Green Bay

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Dude, chill out. Diatribe, really? It was a civil discussion about a player that we don't agree on. No need to get all uppity about it.

 

You don't have to be a personnel expert to see that one of them commanded top dollar and a ton of FA interest and the other signed a mediocre deal with his lone pursuer. Burnett was older when he signed, but 29 is hardly geezer years at safety and nobody really wanted the guy. Not even the Packers.

 

I don't see the need to insult me.

[HiAndTight]

I don't recall any team besides Pitt wanting Burnett, and that the Packers let him walk for 3/14 should tell you everything.

 

Some players get inflated locally by coachspeak getting into the news a lot. A position coach will say a guy is "terrific" or the "ultimate pro" every week for a few years and locally that becomes "this guy is a terrific player and we need him."

 

Burnett was addition by subtraction IMO. So was HaHa, who at least used to be good and then went rogue playing hero ball. One of the highlights of last year is getting a 4th for that dead weight.

 

Burnett's claim to fame was being the "quarterback of the defense" on a unit that was among the league's worst. He was part of the problem.

 

 

That's just completely ridiculous as was saying that HaHa was "addition by subtraction." So we got better when HaHa left? No, we didn't. He was the best safety on the team. Not worth re-signing, so we traded him and got a nice return, but your stance that he was addition by subtraction, that would infer that we were better after trading him. Which of the 30 safeties that we played in his place were better than he was? I'm genuinely curious here?

 

As for Burnett, he was a very solid player, very good in the box, not a great coverage safety which Amos is, he was older than Amos, so it's probably not a fair comparision, but you've been on this kick about how bad these two were for a while and how they were addition by subtraction. It's just not true and I'd like to see anything that backs that up.

[LouisEly]

Burnett is a guy. He always was. Only among GB fans was he a revered player.

This is a bit of recency effect bias. From 2011-2015 Burnett was a very good player. Not All-Pro or Pro Bowl, but a very good player. In that time span he created 13 turnovers (7 forced fumbles, six interceptions) and had over 100 tackles every year from 2011-2014, even in only 13 games in 2013. He wasn't as good in 2016, but was still a good player, contributing two interceptions, nine passes defensed (second only to 2011), and three sacks.

 

Unfortunately the injuries of 2015 and 2017 took their toll and by the end of his tenure in GB he was no longer the player he was, and the tail end of Dom Capers didn't make him look any better. But to say he was just a guy is not accurate, certainly not from 2011-2015.

[docduany]

I guess that I'd hang on to Tra. You can never have enough corners. King has yet to stay healthy. I also like the experience he gained last season at safety. If they absolutely need the cap space, fine. But all things being equal I'd hang on to him

[HiAndTight]

Basically I was looking for a Packers historical player to compare to Amos, and Burnett was the first name I came up with. Perhaps there just isn't an apt comparison.

 

From the descriptions, people have of Amos (here and elsewhere), I don't think its all that off base. Burnett was a non-flashy, dependable, always-in-position type player until he was about 25. Then it seems he fell off a cliff and the MB we had the last 3 years (and Pitt last year) wasn't the same player.

 

So hopefully Amos doesn't follow MB's path...

 

That's what I saw as well. But according to NFL personnel expert OldSchoolSnapper, it was WAY off. Because rather than focusing on the Amos signing, all we got was a diatribe on how Burnett was trash, and only blind Packer fans thought otherwise.

 

 

I don't think it was the perfect analogy as Amos is better in coverage, and Burnett was very good vs the run, but in general, your point about having a stabalizing precence on the back end, something that was very much needed is absolutely accurate.

 

As for Amos following Burnett's path...I think Amos arrow is pointing up and he was a great signing. I think he COULD be a guy like Fuller last year who has been solid, but makes that jump and starts to make a few more plays and goes from 2 picks to 5 or 6.

 

I had a few dream scenario's that were less likely to happen like Barr or Clowney, but I really liked both Amos and Z Smith. Not sure about the Preston Smith as I don't think his upside is as high, but that's also reflected in his relatively meager signing bonus(when compared to his AAV).

 

Bottom line, adding two young edge players and a safety who may be on the brink of being a pro-bowler caliber player makes the draft so much more wide open. The Packers could take a WR'er in the first, they could take Fant at 12 if they like him enough, they no longer have to take the best edge rusher. I still hope they do because I like a rotation that goes 3-4 deep(and I don't personally think highly of Kyler, despite his 10.5 sacks) with one being a really talented young guy like Sweat, but BPA rather than BPA at a position of need seems more likely now than it did before.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

First of all, I haven't been on any kind of kick about HHCD, so stop making crap up, thanks.

 

We got better because we weren't retaining HaHa, we stunk, and we got a 4th for an outgoing malcontent. There is nothing to gain by keeping him on the roster in a season going nowhere fast. We got a 4th for dead weight. That's addition by subtraction to me, when looking at the big picture. The best safety on that team is pretty empty praise.

 

HHCD was a really good player. In 2014. The article is the JS following his trade that went into how his preparation fell off a cliff, how he felt he'd already earned a huge pay day etc., that was not a guy I wanted on the team. I've never once said he's a bad football player. Again, don't make crap up. I said he went rogue and started playing hero ball at the expense of what he was supposed to be doing schematically. He thought he was better than he was.

 

As far as Burnett goes, nah, the guy was mediocre. We see this with local favorites on every team constantly. I would only have to go back to last summer, when I couldn't really get anybody to tell me anyone in the Packers lineup who wasn't good. If you ask fans, the worst you're going to hear about almost any player is "he's solid, dependable."

 

Burnett was a guy you could replace with 4-5 guys every year in FA. Proof? Well, the fact that this "very solid player" departed in FA and got $4mm in guarantees would say I'm pretty spot-on there. He did the same level of just about nothing in Pitt that he did in GB and is now asking to be cut.

 

He's a run of the mill guy. Nothing special about him at all. And yes, he was a part of the problem, as it was a defense filled with mediocre talent. You don't sign three mega FAs on Day 2 if that isn't the case.

[HiAndTight]

Burnett is a guy. He always was. Only among GB fans was he a revered player.

This is a bit of recency effect bias. From 2011-2015 Burnett was a very good player. Not All-Pro or Pro Bowl, but a very good player. In that time span he created 13 turnovers (7 forced fumbles, six interceptions) and had over 100 tackles every year from 2011-2014, even in only 13 games in 2013. He wasn't as good in 2016, but was still a good player, contributing two interceptions, nine passes defensed (second only to 2011), and three sacks.

 

Unfortunately the injuries of 2015 and 2017 took their toll and by the end of his tenure in GB he was no longer the player he was, and the tail end of Dom Capers didn't make him look any better. But to say he was just a guy is not accurate, certainly not from 2011-2015.

 

 

I think this is far closer to what Burnett actually was. Also, a guy who's reliable and assignment steady isn't just coach speak to talk a guy up, it's the type of players you NEED on a defense in order for said defense to not have big breakdowns like we saw with the awful safety play we had both before Burnett(MD Jennings and the like) and then last year.

 

I would also add that I think more than just his stats, people should give Burnett more credit for his play vs the run. He was very good defending the run.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Burnett at his best was AJ Hawk at his best and that's the nicest thing I can say. They could hack it on the field as parts of a good defense as long as there were stars towing most of the load. When they were cornerstones of the defense, which Burnett was later in his time with the Packers, you have problems.

[HiAndTight]

First of all, I haven't been on any kind of kick about HHCD, so stop making crap up, thanks.

 

We got better because we weren't retaining HaHa, we stunk, and we got a 4th for an outgoing malcontent. There is nothing to gain by keeping him on the roster in a season going nowhere fast. We got a 4th for dead weight. That's addition by subtraction to me, when looking at the big picture. The best safety on that team is pretty empty praise.

 

HHCD was a really good player. In 2014. The article is the JS following his trade that went into how his preparation fell off a cliff, how he felt he'd already earned a huge pay day etc., that was not a guy I wanted on the team. I've never once said he's a bad football player. Again, don't make crap up. I said he went rogue and started playing hero ball at the expense of what he was supposed to be doing schematically. He thought he was better than he was.

 

As far as Burnett goes, nah, the guy was mediocre. We see this with local favorites on every team constantly. I would only have to go back to last summer, when I couldn't really get anybody to tell me anyone in the Packers lineup who wasn't good. If you ask fans, the worst you're going to hear about almost any player is "he's solid, dependable."

 

Burnett was a guy you could replace with 4-5 guys every year in FA. Proof? Well, the fact that this "very solid player" departed in FA and got $4mm in guarantees would say I'm pretty spot-on there. He did the same level of just about nothing in Pitt that he did in GB and is now asking to be cut.

 

He's a run of the mill guy. Nothing special about him at all. And yes, he was a part of the problem, as it was a defense filled with mediocre talent. You don't sign three mega FAs on Day 2 if that isn't the case.

 

 

So when you say addition by subtraction, you're factoring in what we got in return for the player, what we MAY have hypothetically spent on the player?

 

I think the vast-VAST majority of people when they use that phrase mean when a certain player leaves, because that player is gone, the team is going to be better.

 

You used the same phrase repeatedly at the time of the trade.

 

Second, with regard to the bolded part, sure you have. Refer back to your multiple posts at the time of the trade and the attacks you've made on his character and work ethic as well as....the very post I'm quoting where you continue to bash him. I don't really care about the guy any longer as he's no longer a Packer, but you seem to really be holding him some animosity for the guy and it just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Also, why do you give credence to the leaks about why a player loses value after the team no longer wants him, but when those very same types of leaks are positive or when they're not even leaks, they're just coming from the coaches mouths, then they hold no value?

 

 

What's more, you keep using what Burnett signed for towards the end of his prime as your example as to why you seem to have this dis-like for him. How about you compare his contract that he signed with the Packers when he was around the same age as Amos? A veteran player who's struggled with injuries not getting a huge contract doesn't exactly take away the value he provided his team when he was younger and healthy.

 

But this converstion when absolutely NOWHERE when you said Haha was "addition by substraction," at the time of the trade or called him a malcontent without telling us what exactly he did that made him such a malcontent, so I doubt it will go any futher here.

 

Bottom line, Amos is good. That doesn't mean that Burnett couldn't have also been a good player as well 8 years ago when he was in Green Bay or that HaHa was somehow addition by subtraction.

[HiAndTight]

Burnett at his best was AJ Hawk at his best and that's the nicest thing I can say. They could hack it on the field as parts of a good defense as long as there were stars towing most of the load. When they were cornerstones of the defense, which Burnett was later in his time with the Packers, you have problems.

 

 

 

Ok, I think Burnett was better than that, but I also think Hawk was a pretty good player for a 4-5 year stretch in GB, particularly before we changed to a 3-4. I think he was best as a Will Backer in a 4-3.

 

What you're basically saying is they're good starters, but NOT superstars.

 

 

Did I miss when there was a large contingent of people claiming that either were superstars that could carry a defense? How many players are there like that on any given team? On the Packers 96 team there were 2, Butler and White. ON their 2010 team there was 2, Wood and Matthews.

 

 

So if you're just saying they're NOT the types of guys who can carry a defense and be the marquee players on a good defense, particularly when they're passing their primes and have little talent around them.....who's arguing?

 

 

I think you're facing resistance when you use hyperbole and say that getting rid of HaHa was "addition by substraction," or jumping all over a comment comparing Amos to Burnett because both are assignment steady, smart players.

[HiAndTight]

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2018/4/2/17185102/pro-football-focus-shines-light-on-how-morgan-burnett-can-help-the-steelers-free-agent-nfl-news

 

 

Again, one of the best run defenders at the safety position in the NFL, tied with Kam for runs stops in the box at the safety position.

[HiAndTight]

Honestly, it wouldn't break my heart to have Cobb back at a small deal. But I started thinking about our new offense... I think we will be using the 3 WR sets much less frequently than in the past. Wouldn't you expect to see more 2WR/2TE sets?

 

 

Just going off what the rest of that coaching tree has used, I wouldn't. Unless they do pick up a guy like Fant, I think they'll still probably run a 3 WR'er set more often.

 

MM constantly talked about whating to run 2 TE's more often...but we just never really had the talent at that position to do what he wanted to do.

 

And seeing what some guys like Crowder and Humphries got, I'd gladly take Cobb back at say, 3 years 24 million with 10 guaranteed. Not a given he'd take it, but I think he's worth that.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm saying that we got something, anything, for a guy who was leaving anyway and our season was not going anywhere (to me, I know were 3-3 or something at the time but I never bought in to them last year). Wouldn't have mattered to me if we traded Ronnie Lott at the time, we stunk and he was leaving. Of course HHCD was the best S on the team. It was him and a bunch of stiffs.

 

I give credence to those leaks because they were not GB-only leaks, they were coming from sources outside the team too. And well, I watch the games. He changed from early on from a hungry player to an arrogant one. As far as why I don't buy into positive praise from coaches, I didn't say that I don't, but when are you going to hear a coach say "he's average" about a current player? You won't.

 

Burnett's deal with GB is a terrible comparison. They extended a whole bunch of guys needlessly under Thompson to contracts they didn't deserve. He loved overpaying for his great discoveries. We can never know for sure, but I'll never believe he'd have gotten the same attention in FA that Amos did.

 

I don't care about you getting angry over some semantics. On the day we traded HHCD we improved the state of the organization given the context. And I was happy when we made no offer to Burnett because I never liked him. They were both great moves to me. HHCD was at least a blue chip talent though, Burnett was mediocre.

[HiAndTight]

For those of you that know these 3 defensive additions very well, how would you sum up how they improve the defense as a whole? Is the defense now faster? Tougher?

 

Meaner.

 

 

I don't know much about Preston Smith other than he's big. He certainly has to be an upgrade on what we had, but I think when you look at the guaranteed money, the Packers are thinking he's more of an upside player that they could cut ties with in 2 years without taking too big of a hit.

 

Amos is a very good coverage safety and I think he's still got a chance to take another big step and actually be that playmaker, but worse case scenario, he's just a really solid player and allows us to not have to worry about Free Safety for the next 4 years.

 

Amos and Za'Darius Smith were two of the second tier guys I really was hoping the Packers were be interested in. Smith instantly improved our pass rush a great deal. If we bring back Wilkerson, even before the draft, we've got a much-much better front 7 now.

 

And we added Billy Turner, a former 3rd rounder who can play both tackle positions and guard. Price tag on him seems a bit high at 4/28 if I saw that right, but....when it comes to protecting Rodgers, it seems worth it.

[HiAndTight]

I'm saying that we got something, anything, for a guy who was leaving anyway and our season was not going anywhere (to me, I know were 3-3 or something at the time but I never bought in to them last year). Wouldn't have mattered to me if we traded Ronnie Lott at the time, we stunk and he was leaving. Of course HHCD was the best S on the team. It was him and a bunch of stiffs.

 

I give credence to those leaks because they were not GB-only leaks, they were coming from sources outside the team too. And well, I watch the games. He changed from early on from a hungry player to an arrogant one. As far as why I don't buy into positive praise from coaches, I didn't say that I don't, but when are you going to hear a coach say "he's average" about a current player? You won't.

 

Burnett's deal with GB is a terrible comparison. They extended a whole bunch of guys needlessly under Thompson to contracts they didn't deserve. He loved overpaying for his great discoveries. We can never know for sure, but I'll never believe he'd have gotten the same attention in FA that Amos did.

 

I don't care about you getting angry over some semantics. On the day we traded HHCD we improved the state of the organization given the context. And I was happy when we made no offer to Burnett because I never liked him. They were both great moves to me. HHCD was at least a blue chip talent though, Burnett was mediocre.

 

 

 

I'll just re-post this since you seem to have given quite a bit of credence to pro-football focus(rightfully so).

 

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/n ... t-nfl-news

 

S Morgan Burnett

2017 Grade: 77.2

One of the best box safeties in the league, Burnett played 83.1 percent of his run-defense snaps within eight yards of the line of scrimmage last year and racked up 10 run stops as a result. Since 2012, Burnett has now racked up a whopping 93 run stops when lined up in the box, which is tied with Kam Chancellor for the most among safeties in that span.

 

The rest of it, you've been going on about since the day we traded Haha. And it's not semantics. Words ARE important. If you say we're better trading Haha because of "addition by subtraction," I've never heard anyone use that to justify future potential salary or even the return we got for him.

 

That means we're better as a team because THIS person is no longer on it. That was not that case with HaHa. We were worse without him.

 

I'm curious what he's did that showed he was a malcontent and a disruption in the locker room? It seems like that's kinda a cop out anytime we trade a guy who's play has slipped for whatever reason(though Haha's hadn't this past year as he was leading the league in picks IIRC at teh time of the trade, he had struggled the year before however).

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm not pulling HHCD having a bad attitude out of thin air. I don't know you're under that impression, but it was pretty clear that he had soured in the locker room by the time he was traded. I'm not digging up the articles for you, you can do it on your own.

 

Is there a reason you keep spamming the same link? Your last one is a 404 btw. I don't see what the point is? It grades him out as an average player to slightly above player, which is right about what I've been saying...he's a guy.

 

You're making addition by subtraction into a really big deal for some reason. The guy had no future in GB and we salvaged a 4th out of him. He was walking. It's not that complicated. You've taken the way I used it out of context and run with it. You know what I meant and was talking long-term. OK? Let it go.

 

I'm off this topic now. It has nothing to with FA. I didn't like either guy moving forward and was far from alone thinking that. I riled up the MB defense force, but I'm not going to budge off calling him a mediocre player. You've cherry picked a single stat the way AJ Hawk lovers would rattle off his tackles. Neither was a ever a difference maker, they were role players.

[PeaveyFury]

Words ARE important.

 

Even more so when they're on the topic that is being discussed in the thread. Please start a new thread or bump an old one if you want to continue this debate, otherwise let's please get back onto current topics.

[HiAndTight]

I'm not pulling HHCD having a bad attitude out of thin air. I don't know you're under that impression, but it was pretty clear that he had soured in the locker room by the time he was traded. I'm not digging up the articles for you, you can do it on your own.

 

Is there a reason you keep spamming the same link? Your last one is a 404 btw. I don't see what the point is? It grades him out as an average player to slightly above player, which is right about what I've been saying...he's a guy.

 

You're making addition by subtraction into a really big deal for some reason. The guy had no future in GB and we salvaged a 4th out of him. He was walking. It's not that complicated. OK? Let it go.

 

I'm off this topic now. It has nothing to with FA. I didn't like either guy moving forward and was far from alone thinking that. I riled up the MB defense force, but I'm not going to budge off calling him a mediocre player. You've cherry picked a single stat the way AJ Hawk lovers would rattle off his tackles. Neither was a ever a difference maker, they were role players.

 

 

Yes, because I re-posted a link that used FACTS to prove that Burnett was one of the best in the box safeties in the NFL over the last 6 years he was in Green Bay, I'm "spamming" that link. But you calling Haha a malcontent without backing it up in anyway over and over and over is what exactly?

 

But you made the claim that he was a malcontent and a problem in the locker room. It's on you then to support your claims, isn't it?

 

I do have one question, if your problem with Burnett is that he was not the type of guy who could carry a defense and that he was the type of guy who could start on a defense that HAD superstars and be part of a good supporting cast, and you were so obviously upset by the Amos-Burnett comp, does that mean you believe Amos is then the type of guy who can "carry" a defense? I'm just trying to figure out where you actually come out on the Packers signings, not on the guys who aren't on the Packers anymore.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/10/30/silverstein-packers-put-house-order-pair-necessary-deals/1821324002/

 

HHCD was upset with Packers brass. I thought everyone already knew, but here is your link. There is another out there with direct quotes from other sources. You can find it with some Google.

 

I'm done talking about it at mod request. You're hell bent on getting a reaction.

[HiAndTight]

https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/10/30/silverstein-packers-put-house-order-pair-necessary-deals/1821324002/

 

HHCD was upset with Packers brass. I thought everyone already knew, but here is your link. There is another out there with direct quotes from other sources. You can find it with some Google.

 

I'm done talking about it at mod request. You're hell bent on getting a reaction.

 

 

I see no quotes and I see a beat writer speculating and then concluding it may not work out and that it was a trade for THIS SEASON and the position may suffer because of it if they were unable to find anyone to fill in(exactly what happened). Not sure this is cementing your position like you think.

 

Also, given where I came into this conversation, I'm not sure how you can argue I was the one who was looking for a reaction.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Randall Cobb is most certainly NOT worth 3/24. That’s pure and utter insanity. Cobb is a league minimum (veteran) player now, at best.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Dude, I just told you there was ANOTHER article in the cosmos with quotes. JFC.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Basically I was looking for a Packers historical player to compare to Amos, and Burnett was the first name I came up with. Perhaps there just isn't an apt comparison.

 

From the descriptions, people have of Amos (here and elsewhere), I don't think its all that off base. Burnett was a non-flashy, dependable, always-in-position type player until he was about 25. Then it seems he fell off a cliff and the MB we had the last 3 years (and Pitt last year) wasn't the same player.

 

So hopefully Amos doesn't follow MB's path...

 

That's what I saw as well. But according to NFL personnel expert OldSchoolSnapper, it was WAY off. Because rather than focusing on the Amos signing, all we got was a diatribe on how Burnett was trash, and only blind Packer fans thought otherwise.

 

This straw man is the post that sent this off the rails. JMB has a penchant for dictating the way other people should post. I am not the first person to mention this. I'd completely let the topic get away from MB, he makes three more replies without me responding, then needlessly calls me out.

 

There was literally nothing about the topic that wasn't civil until this.

[homer]

Stop it guys or you're getting a timeout.

[HiAndTight]

Randall Cobb is most certainly NOT worth 3/24. That’s pure and utter insanity. Cobb is a league minimum (veteran) player now, at best.

 

 

You really need to look at what Humphries and Crowder just got before making this type of declaration.

 

Also, just 3/24 is meaningless without guaranteed money.

 

Cobb is most definitely worth more than a vets minimium right now however.