Moose is back! [1 yr/$10mm guaranteed; $11mm mutual 2020 option -- post #186]

[MrTPlush]

The Moose signing means the Brewers will likely have vastly improved offensive production from the 7 and 8 spots in the order. I hope it's safe to assume Arcia will hit better than he did in the 2018 regular seaon.

 

That is probably the biggest question surrounding the Brewers offense. Who is the real Arcia at the plate?

 

This offenses biggest improvement isn’t Grandal, but if Arcia can find a way to not be a black hole in the offense. Adding Grandal is great, but getting rid of a black hole in front of the pitcher would be stellar. More pop would be an important factor.

 

Arcia was often another pitcher in lineup and it absolutely killed. Even when “on” it was usually no power just avaerage which essentially was just as worthless.

[tmwiese55]

Don’t really like the signing. Doesn’t fit what they need offensively, which is a high OBP guy. He offers no flexibility at a time when short benches are the rule. The one thing I do like is that it takes expectations off Huira and he can get a full year in AAA.

Who's available that fits that description and can play 2B or 3B and is willing to sign a one year contract for $10M or less?

 

Before anyone says Dietrich, his lifetime OBP is a marginally better .335 and his defense is horrible. Moose is at least a plus defender.

 

Marginally better? 335 vs 307 isn't marginally better, it's a wide gap. Also, look vs RHP and it's 312 to 348. That's a big difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this and don't really have a complaint but I didn't think this was accurate and I could've totally seen the logic of Deitrich instead and then you have that 8 mil for an in season move if needed.

 

I'd guess their logic was that DD didn't play much IF last year so not so sure on him handling 2B, plus he's just never been good at D. Combine that with that they know Moose and his locker room aspects, known commodity so to speak. So I get all that. However, how do we know how Moose will do at 2B and there could be value in that DD has played a lot of OF lately too so some more flexibility. All in all, from afar I think I'd have gone DD and saved the 8 mil to help elsewhere at the deadline. But I also don't have access to the behind the scenes locker room stuff, we know they value Moose there and maybe DD is not known in that way behind the scenes in baseball, who knows.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Don’t really like the signing. Doesn’t fit what they need offensively, which is a high OBP guy. He offers no flexibility at a time when short benches are the rule. The one thing I do like is that it takes expectations off Huira and he can get a full year in AAA.

Who's available that fits that description and can play 2B or 3B and is willing to sign a one year contract for $10M or less?

 

Before anyone says Dietrich, his lifetime OBP is a marginally better .335 and his defense is horrible. Moose is at least a plus defender.

 

Marginally better? 335 vs 307 isn't marginally better, it's a wide gap. Also, look vs RHP and it's 312 to 348. That's a big difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this and don't really have a complaint but I didn't think this was accurate and I could've totally seen the logic of Deitrich instead and then you have that 8 mil for an in season move if needed.

 

I'd guess their logic was that DD didn't play much IF last year so not so sure on him handling 2B, plus he's just never been good at D. Combine that with that they know Moose and his locker room aspects, known commodity so to speak. So I get all that. However, how do we know how Moose will do at 2B and there could be value in that DD has played a lot of OF lately too so some more flexibility. All in all, from afar I think I'd have gone DD and saved the 8 mil to help elsewhere at the deadline. But I also don't have access to the behind the scenes locker room stuff, we know they value Moose there and maybe DD is not known in that way behind the scenes in baseball, who knows.

 

The fact that Derek Dietrich signed a minor league deal with a team who already has established stars at 2B and 3B tells me everything I need to know about how Dietrich is valued in the league.

[tmwiese55]

Who's available that fits that description and can play 2B or 3B and is willing to sign a one year contract for $10M or less?

 

Before anyone says Dietrich, his lifetime OBP is a marginally better .335 and his defense is horrible. Moose is at least a plus defender.

 

Marginally better? 335 vs 307 isn't marginally better, it's a wide gap. Also, look vs RHP and it's 312 to 348. That's a big difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this and don't really have a complaint but I didn't think this was accurate and I could've totally seen the logic of Deitrich instead and then you have that 8 mil for an in season move if needed.

 

I'd guess their logic was that DD didn't play much IF last year so not so sure on him handling 2B, plus he's just never been good at D. Combine that with that they know Moose and his locker room aspects, known commodity so to speak. So I get all that. However, how do we know how Moose will do at 2B and there could be value in that DD has played a lot of OF lately too so some more flexibility. All in all, from afar I think I'd have gone DD and saved the 8 mil to help elsewhere at the deadline. But I also don't have access to the behind the scenes locker room stuff, we know they value Moose there and maybe DD is not known in that way behind the scenes in baseball, who knows.

 

The fact that Derek Dietrich signed a minor league deal with a team who already has established stars at 2B and 3B tells me everything I need to know about how Dietrich is valued in the league.

 

 

 

Well you can take that approach, but how many under the radar guys have overperformed. For example, one could've said "the fact that Scooter got cut tells me all I need to know about how good Scooter is". Or, "the fact that Wade Miley signed a minor league deal tells me all I need to know about Wade Miley." Or, "the fact that Jesus Aguilar never got to the bigs and was cut/waived tells me all I need to know". Can go on and on.

 

I was speaking specifically just to the locker room stuff that we know basically nothing about.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Who's available that fits that description and can play 2B or 3B and is willing to sign a one year contract for $10M or less?

 

Before anyone says Dietrich, his lifetime OBP is a marginally better .335 and his defense is horrible. Moose is at least a plus defender.

 

Marginally better? 335 vs 307 isn't marginally better, it's a wide gap. Also, look vs RHP and it's 312 to 348. That's a big difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this and don't really have a complaint but I didn't think this was accurate and I could've totally seen the logic of Deitrich instead and then you have that 8 mil for an in season move if needed.

 

I'd guess their logic was that DD didn't play much IF last year so not so sure on him handling 2B, plus he's just never been good at D. Combine that with that they know Moose and his locker room aspects, known commodity so to speak. So I get all that. However, how do we know how Moose will do at 2B and there could be value in that DD has played a lot of OF lately too so some more flexibility. All in all, from afar I think I'd have gone DD and saved the 8 mil to help elsewhere at the deadline. But I also don't have access to the behind the scenes locker room stuff, we know they value Moose there and maybe DD is not known in that way behind the scenes in baseball, who knows.

 

The fact that Derek Dietrich signed a minor league deal with a team who already has established stars at 2B and 3B tells me everything I need to know about how Dietrich is valued in the league.

 

 

 

Well you can take that approach, but how many under the radar guys have overperformed. For example, one could've said "the fact that Scooter got cut tells me all I need to know about how good Scooter is". Or, "the fact that Wade Miley signed a minor league deal tells me all I need to know about Wade Miley." Or, "the fact that Jesus Aguilar never got to the bigs and was cut/waived tells me all I need to know". Can go on and on.

 

I was speaking specifically just to the locker room stuff that we know basically nothing about.

 

Oh for sure. Every year there are guys who defy expectations, and sometimes even blow them out of the water. The guys you are referring to are three prime examples. I just think that Stearns has proven so adept at player movement that criticizing the acquisition of Moose while arguing for Derek Dietrich is sort of a shell game. Heck, for all we know Brett Lawrie could end up being the most productive 2B at the end of the year. What I do know is that Stearns did his homework on Dietrich, because he does his homework on all available players. And if he determined that Moose is the better value than Dietrich on a cheap deal, I'm good with it.

[tmwiese55]

Yup, like I said I'm fine with it too and not complaining. The OP basing it off OBP (acting like 30-40 points of OBP isn't significant) and automatically discarding DD like it was just not even remotely logical to consider seemed off though. That extra 8 mil could be valuable later but yes at this point we just trust Stearns and hope for the best. Have to remember he's not perfect though and mistakes can happen

[OldHeidelberg]

This team was really good down the stretch and probably the 2 best players that weren't coming back were Moose and Miley and with Miley at least we have the young pitchers knocking on the door. Really I would have been OK with the $15 million option since they passed on Schoop, 1 year deals like this are fine, if the season goes bad you can hopefully deal them and get prospects back for your buck. Heck in a perfect world Hiura goes all Ryan Braun and we have too many good hitters by midseason and could even trade someone while in first place. It seems like we have enough to power now that when we have to rest guys like Braun and Aguilar it doesn't hurt the lineup that much. Not a whole lot of downside here in my opinion, he makes the team better and sounds like he has good chemistry with his teammates.

[JosephC]

Have to admit I would have rather seen the Brewers hold onto this money for a potential big splash at the deadline. Adding his lefty bat does bring a significant upgrade to Spangenberg's bat, and IMO doesn't leave a path for Spangenberg to make the opening day roster unless someone else gets hurt. Grandal (switch), Thames, Shaw, Moustakas, Yelich and Gamel fixes that lefty bat problem the Brewers had at the beginning of the off-season. Still short on lefty pitching....that's the only real hole on the 40 man roster.

[clancyphile]

Oh for sure. Every year there are guys who defy expectations, and sometimes even blow them out of the water. The guys you are referring to are three prime examples. I just think that Stearns has proven so adept at player movement that criticizing the acquisition of Moose while arguing for Derek Dietrich is sort of a shell game. Heck, for all we know Brett Lawrie could end up being the most productive 2B at the end of the year. What I do know is that Stearns did his homework on Dietrich, because he does his homework on all available players. And if he determined that Moose is the better value than Dietrich on a cheap deal, I'm good with it.

 

You play the games to find out...

 

I think with Moustakas, it's also about giving him every chance to get a good FA deal in the 2019-2020 offseason.

 

He'll have a full season playing half his games at a ballpark very friendly to left-handed power hitters. He may also add some serious positional flexibility (adding 2B to his repertoire). I've done some more digging, and he may have a better shot at sticking at second than some think - he had about 65 games at shortstop at the rookie and full-season A levels in 2007/2008. Don't have advanced metrics, but fielding percentages of .976 and .956 show he wasn't a complete hack at shortstop. He also made four starts at first base in 2018 for the Royals.

 

I think he could surprise on several levels.

[ConnecticutBrewer]

All signs point to a good year this year, will be supporting the brewers as always at metlife in April.

[Warning Track Power]

 

2019: $7 million

2020: $11 million OR $3 million buyout

 

Interesting

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

2019: $7 million

2020: $11 million OR $3 million buyout

 

Interesting

 

Simple way to defer money on a short-term deal. I suppose it is possible that the mutual option could be exercised by both sides, but not likely.

[BrewFan130]

Its not often you see so many teammates happy about bringing back a player that mixes up player positions and if that’s truly the case then Moose is a good fit for the Brewers.

 

On the other side of this move, I’m curious how Shaw or Moustakas’ speed compares to the average 2B. Will it effect the teams ability to turn double plays or increase opponent hits up the middle. Shaw at 2B impressed me last season, but will opponents find ways to exploit this given they have a full season to work different tactics

[long ball]

While the mutual option is likely just a salary deferral, it's pretty reasonable. Net $8mil decision.

 

If Shaw or Hiura sustains a significant injury or if Aguilar flops in 2019 I could see that mutual option being attractive to both sides.

[clancyphile]

Its not often you see so many teammates happy about bringing back a player that mixes up player positions and if that’s truly the case then Moose is a good fit for the Brewers.

 

On the other side of this move, I’m curious how Shaw or Moustakas’ speed compares to the average 2B. Will it effect the teams ability to turn double plays or increase opponent hits up the middle. Shaw at 2B impressed me last season, but will opponents find ways to exploit this given they have a full season to work different tactics

 

With the shift, I think it might have some effect, but greatly reduced to the point the bats make it up. Then again, Moustakas did play some shortstop in 2007 and 2008 at the Rookie and Full-Season A levels, so I think he will prove to be decent at second. In fact, both he and Shaw are a bit more defensively flexible than most might think:

 

Shaw: Played mostly 1B and 3B, but worked out decently at second in 2018, and has some experience in LF.

Moustakas: Played mostly 3B, but limited experience at SS in 2007-2008 and four starts at first in 2018.

 

Now, Shaw in left and Moose at short maybe desperation options, but let's not think that this is fated to be a defensive disaster.

[And That]

Mutual options are almost never exercised, BUT... with the frozen FA market of the past few offseasons, have to wonder if a few more of them will start being picked up.

[bjkrautk]

 

2019: $7 million

2020: $11 million OR $3 million buyout

 

Interesting

 

With the buyout as a sunk cost (paying $10M for his 2019 season), his net salary in 2020 would be $8 Million, making the second year effectively at a discount.

 

With both Dubon and Hiura sitting in AAA, I would initially suspect either Shaw or Moustakis would be dealt during the season to open up a spot on the infield....but having a relatively affordable option opens the door to a prospect-for-pitching trade instead.

[markedman5]

I think the aliens have taken over Mark's body.......lol

 

[MrTPlush]

I think the aliens have taken over Mark's body.......lol

 

 

Not shocked that was his response. There is no way we would have made a move like this if it was going to handcuff us in July. You simply cannot get into a position where you don't make a move in July because you can't afford it short term. That is an embarrassing fail. The past and the signings of Moose/Grandal make it clear Attansio will implode any short term profits if he thinks we can win a WS.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I think the aliens have taken over Mark's body.......lol

 

 

The idea that the Brewers are hamstrung by payroll restrictions seems like its a largely made-up idea, stemming from a sour-grapes Cub-fan-written Bleacher Report article penned in December, and a few posters here that seem convinced that the Brewers have no money. The fact is, Attanasio wants to win, and he sees that the window is open just like we all do. He's going to make the moves to make it happen, within reason of course.

[MrTPlush]

I think the aliens have taken over Mark's body.......lol

 

 

The idea that the Brewers are hamstrung by payroll restrictions seems like its a largely made-up idea.

 

No it is real, long term payroll is a concern. 1 year deals, not so much.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I think the aliens have taken over Mark's body.......lol

 

 

The idea that the Brewers are hamstrung by payroll restrictions seems like its a largely made-up idea.

 

No it is real, long term payroll is a concern. 1 year deals, not so much.

 

We are talking about two different ideas I think. The idea that the Brewers wouldn't be able to go out and fill their holes with free agent acquisitions this offseason was largely a fallacy. Of course they can't hamstring themselves with too many long-term high-dollar contacts. No team should be doing that. But there's been people saying that the Brewers are out of money going back to before they signed Grandal. That was obviously false.

[pacopete4]

I think the aliens have taken over Mark's body.......lol

 

 

The idea that the Brewers are hamstrung by payroll restrictions seems like its a largely made-up idea.

 

No it is real, long term payroll is a concern. 1 year deals, not so much.

 

Correct. These deals don’t get done if they are multiple year things. He’s smart. He sees the market is favoring the Brewers right now and they are pouncing as it may never be like this again.

[clancyphile]

No it is real, long term payroll is a concern. 1 year deals, not so much.

 

Correct. These deals don’t get done if they are multiple year things. He’s smart. He sees the market is favoring the Brewers right now and they are pouncing as it may never be like this again.

 

And it might not be after the next CBA... unless the union is forced to make some big concessions in return for getting the DH.

[LouisEly]

The OP basing it off OBP (acting like 30-40 points of OBP isn't significant)

There is actually a slightly higher correlation between team SLG and runs scored than team OBP and runs scored.

 

Moustakas' .459 SLG last year versus Dietrich's .421 neutralizes the OBP difference.