Moose is back! [1 yr/$10mm guaranteed; $11mm mutual 2020 option -- post #186]

[MrTPlush]

I suspect the issue is that everything about his profile points to being the type of player who does age out of the league quickly and at a younger age, which is why he has not had luck getting the multi year deals.

 

He has been slightly above average offensively for years and his defense is/was meh at 3B. I think outside of one season he was a 1.5 WAR player on average and always sports a really low OBP. He just hasn't been that good to be committing 3+ years to.

[TJseven7]

I was wondering about extending Moose as well. However, I'm wary of a guy like him aging rapidly. He seems like a guy who if he loses a notch of his quickness he could really turn into a very mediocre player.

 

That said, he is only 30 - so if you could get him for a two year extension - that would mitigate the risk.

 

My thought is something like 2 years/$25M, with a $12.5M team option - or a $3M buyout. Or maybe start with a 2 years/$10M with a $5M buyout on a third year option.

 

But you have to wonder what is an overpay - not necessarily with regard to production - but based upon what he ended up being paid the last couple of years. I mean, he hit 38 HR two years ago - and could only get $5.5M. That's kind of weird.

 

The big difference between now and the past couple of seasons, is that Moose has shown he can play 2B. Perhaps some teams will feel more comfortable giving him a deal knowing he can play more than one position.

 

This extension talk can easily be said about Grandal. He's been really good - and you wonder if there would be a way to extend him for a couple of more years.

 

Even with the cooler market the last two years at 5.5 and 10 mil, I wouldn't pause in offering him 2yr 26 mil right now to keep him here for the next 2 years. Even if the markets cool on him again, he's earned it and when you look at Thames at 7.5 (1mil buyout) vs 13 mil for Moose. Moose is a clearly better price. I've seen a lot of talk about how we need to respect Shaw by putting him back in the lineup with this IL activation. Respect Moose, is it the BEST value, who cares. He's earned a better deal than he signed this offseason. He's earned more than he got paid the last 2 years. Respect the guy who is now one of your guys and pay him even if it might end up a bit of an overpay. 10 mil 13 mil not a big deal.

 

2yr/26 and lock 3B down. Let Shaw rebound to the new and improved Thames eventually.

[wntrtxn21]

I was wondering about extending Moose as well. However, I'm wary of a guy like him aging rapidly. He seems like a guy who if he loses a notch of his quickness he could really turn into a very mediocre player.

 

That said, he is only 30 - so if you could get him for a two year extension - that would mitigate the risk.

 

My thought is something like 2 years/$25M, with a $12.5M team option - or a $3M buyout. Or maybe start with a 2 years/$10M with a $5M buyout on a third year option.

 

But you have to wonder what is an overpay - not necessarily with regard to production - but based upon what he ended up being paid the last couple of years. I mean, he hit 38 HR two years ago - and could only get $5.5M. That's kind of weird.

 

The big difference between now and the past couple of seasons, is that Moose has shown he can play 2B. Perhaps some teams will feel more comfortable giving him a deal knowing he can play more than one position.

 

This extension talk can easily be said about Grandal. He's been really good - and you wonder if there would be a way to extend him for a couple of more years.

 

Even with the cooler market the last two years at 5.5 and 10 mil, I wouldn't pause in offering him 2yr 26 mil right now to keep him here for the next 2 years. Even if the markets cool on him again, he's earned it and when you look at Thames at 7.5 (1mil buyout) vs 13 mil for Moose. Moose is a clearly better price. I've seen a lot of talk about how we need to respect Shaw by putting him back in the lineup with this IL activation. Respect Moose, is it the BEST value, who cares. He's earned a better deal than he signed this offseason. He's earned more than he got paid the last 2 years. Respect the guy who is now one of your guys and pay him even if it might end up a bit of an overpay. 10 mil 13 mil not a big deal.

 

2yr/26 and lock 3B down. Let Shaw rebound to the new and improved Thames eventually.

 

They have him for $11M next year so he may go for a second year at $11.5M which would be acceptable. If Shaw does get it together he could play 1B with Thames leaving. If Shaw continues to struggle and gets traded, then we have a good 3B for two more years.

[TJseven7]

He has a mutual option in 2020 so they truly have a 1 year deal.

[adambr2]

He has a mutual option in 2020 so they truly have a 1 year deal.

 

Correct. Enormous difference between mutual option and team option. You could probably count on one hand how many mutual options you can think of being exercised.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

He has a mutual option in 2020 so they truly have a 1 year deal.

 

Correct. Enormous difference between mutual option and team option. You could probably count on one hand how many mutual options you can think of being exercised.

I agree. However, these are different times and Moose has had very little luck in the FA market the last 2 years. Its still most likely that he goes back into free agency but you never know.

[clancyphile]

Of course, much now depends on the situation with his hand... I'm hoping that the broken finger doesn't have long-term effects.

 

Frankly, it does make the decision easier for when Shaw comes up. Hiura stays, Moose to the DL.

[TURBO]

Trading out Moose for Shaw in the current line-up is a very bad thing. VERY BAD! I have seen people on the site actually act like this is a good thing if he ends up on the DL. Makes it an easier decision to keep Hiura.

 

What?

 

In no situation should Hiura be going anyplace. Shaw needs to stay right where he is if Moose is healthy, end of story.

[clancyphile]

Trading out Moose for Shaw in the current line-up is a very bad thing. VERY BAD! I have seen people on the site actually act like this is a good thing if he ends up on the DL. Makes it an easier decision to keep Hiura.

 

What?

 

In no situation should Hiura be going anyplace. Shaw needs to stay right where he is if Moose is healthy, end of story.

 

I never said it was good to trade Moose for Shaw.

 

But if Moose is injured (

), he goes to the DL, Shaw comes back up.

[clancyphile]

McCalvy on the injury:

[PeaveyFury]

Sounds like he's ok to go, but that's yet to be seen. If Moose does hit the DL, they need Shaw to produce at third ASAP.

[nodakfan17]

More of a random thought than anything, but how is it that someone with Moose’s build can play adequate defense at 3B (and spot duty at 2B), but a young Ryan Braun couldn’t stick at 3B?

[jerichoholicninja]

More of a random thought than anything, but how is it that a someone with Moose’s build can play adequate defense at 3B (and spot duty at 2B), but a young Ryan Braun couldn’t stick at 3B?

 

Braun was a SS for top D1 college too.

[bill hAll Star]

Maybe a bit of reaction time, coordination, and throwing accuracy.

 

If I recall, a lot of Braun's issues were terrible throws. Moose could still just be quicker to jump to a liner to his left and get his glove to the ball bouncing at his hip without dropping/bobbling it as well as make an accurate throw to 1B.

[tomwopat]

Maybe a bit of reaction time, coordination, and throwing accuracy.

 

If I recall, a lot of Braun's issues were terrible throws. Moose could still just be quicker to jump to a liner to his left and get his glove to the ball bouncing at his hip without dropping/bobbling it as well as make an accurate throw to 1B.

 

With Braun admitting that he never really liked third base, yet still doing so-so at 1st and open to playing 2nd (!), I have to think it was some combination of motivation and concentration. He seemed to have trouble both reacting quickly to balls hit his way, but also taking his time on throws to keep them out of the stands or dugout.

[NYChez]

The Brewers went from the possibility of a Spangenberg / Perez platoon at 2B to having the best OPS at the position in MLB by .049 through early June.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

The Brewers went from the possibility of a Spangenberg / Perez platoon at 2B to having the best OPS at the position in MLB by .049 through early June.

 

And unfortunately they have the 22nd ranked OPS at 3rd base. I do see a way to rank very highly at both spots going forward though...

[coolhandluke121]

The Brewers went from the possibility of a Spangenberg / Perez platoon at 2B to having the best OPS at the position in MLB by .049 through early June.

 

And unfortunately they have the 22nd ranked OPS at 3rd base. I do see a way to rank very highly at both spots going forward though...

 

Everybody sees a way to rank very highly at both spots going forward...

 

I guess Super 2 gonna Super 2.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

The Brewers went from the possibility of a Spangenberg / Perez platoon at 2B to having the best OPS at the position in MLB by .049 through early June.

 

And unfortunately they have the 22nd ranked OPS at 3rd base. I do see a way to rank very highly at both spots going forward though...

 

Me too ... continue to give your upper echelon 3B (the last two years) playing time until he gets it going. Face it people, they aren't going to give up on getting Travis Shaw right for a long time. He's too talented, and his last two years have been too productive to simply give up on him. If Hiura comes back up, they'll find room for everyone, but it isn't going to be at the expense of continuing to try to get Shaw right.

[homer]

Brewers are 5th in the league in runs scored per game. They are fifth worst in runs against per game. Offense won't matter much if they can't get the pitching squared away.

[markedman5]

Moose ops vs lefties is .837 through 58 games.

[adambr2]

The Brewers went from the possibility of a Spangenberg / Perez platoon at 2B to having the best OPS at the position in MLB by .049 through early June.

 

And unfortunately they have the 22nd ranked OPS at 3rd base. I do see a way to rank very highly at both spots going forward though...

 

Me too ... continue to give your upper echelon 3B (the last two years) playing time until he gets it going. Face it people, they aren't going to give up on getting Travis Shaw right for a long time. He's too talented

 

Is Shaw really that talented? I mean, they're all talented in the perspective that they got to this level, but I never really thought of Shaw as a guy who was just primed to break out at this level because of natural talent. I thought of him more as a guy who worked hard and always seemed to outperform his talent level until this season.

[wallus]

 

Is Shaw really that talented? I mean, they're all talented in the perspective that they got to this level, but I never really thought of Shaw as a guy who was just primed to break out at this level because of natural talent. I thought of him more as a guy who worked hard and always seemed to outperform his talent level until this season.

 

Yes Shaw is that talented. He has an OPS over .800 3 out of the last 4 years and he plays good defense. We will need Travis to be good the rest of the year and in the future. He is very important to this team.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Is Shaw really that talented? I mean, they're all talented in the perspective that they got to this level, but I never really thought of Shaw as a guy who was just primed to break out at this level because of natural talent. I thought of him more as a guy who worked hard and always seemed to outperform his talent level until this season.

 

Yes Shaw is that talented. He has an OPS over .800 3 out of the last 4 years and he plays good defense. We will need Travis to be good the rest of the year and in the future. He is very important to this team.

 

The 3 most powerful forces in the universe are love, hatred, and regression to the mean. The question in baseball is, what is that mean? Shaw was a pretty ho-hum prospect for years. 7 years of professional baseball before 2017 did nothing to suggest Shaw is worthy of the performance equity people are giving him. He wouldn't be the first to bomb after a couple good years in his prime, and won't be the last. When in doubt, I trust the whole data set over the recency bias of 2017 and 2018. Incidentally, a similar force appears to be at work with Aguilar, and though I don't rail against him as much as I used to because anything can happen in baseball, it sure looks like regression to the mean wins again despite whatever magic pixie dust he had working for him in 2018.

 

I'll grant that Shaw also wouldn't be the first player to be consistently good in the majors despite being consistenly mediocre in the minors for many years, but that is much more rare than a few good fluke years in a player's prime. Even his MLB OPS isn't that special considering he plays home games at Miller Park. Right now he's looking like almost a dead ringer for Casey McGehee, and I hope and trust they won't do the same thing they did sticking with McGehee's sorry butt in 2011. He will and should be optioned when Hiura is out of the Super 2 zone unless he turns it around dramatically in this audition.

[adambr2]

 

Is Shaw really that talented? I mean, they're all talented in the perspective that they got to this level, but I never really thought of Shaw as a guy who was just primed to break out at this level because of natural talent. I thought of him more as a guy who worked hard and always seemed to outperform his talent level until this season.

 

Yes Shaw is that talented. He has an OPS over .800 3 out of the last 4 years and he plays good defense. We will need Travis to be good the rest of the year and in the future. He is very important to this team.

 

I understand he was very good the last couple years. That isn't the same as asking how talented he really is.