2B : 2019 News

[3and2Fastball]

I guess Mark has set the payroll limit at a certain number, and they are saving whatever room they have left for potential trade deadline acquisitions. They are very high on Hiura and I'd expect him to get a majority of the playing time by at least May or June

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I personally don't think it has anything to do with payroll. I'm going to continue to believe that they have a plan in place that is not Spangenerez, and are just waiting for it to play out. Maybe Marwin Gonzalez? Maybe Josh Harrison? Moose? Dietrich? Trade?

 

It would be pretty disappointing to go into the season with the Poo Poo Platter Platoon, regardless of how close they think Hiura is.

[coolhandluke121]

Last year the Perez/Spangenberg combination slashed .244/.294/.375/.669 which is terrible by almost any measure. Last year Villar slashed .261/.315/.377/.693 with the Brewers (does not include the Baltimore numbers). According to ESPN the slash line for MLB second basemen was .254/.316/.396/.712. Compare that up with team stats across the league, and the Perez/Spangenberg combo would rank 25th in OBP and 23rd in OPS when stacked against other team's second basemen. Unless the unexpected happens, it is a bottom-of-the-barrel offensive pairing the Brewers have penciled in.

 

True, but that ignores how the Brewers will use Perez/Spangenberg, vs LHP, RHP respectively:

 

.277/.304/.479/.783

.261/.332/.393/.725 (in a pitchers park BTW)

 

Every reason to believe this platoon can put up above average numbers at 2B, and .750ish is actually very realistic.

 

Yep. Both theoretically at their peak, too. Will both turn 28 just before the season begins. Much rather them at rock-bottom price than committing $15-25m to some 33-ish ticking time bomb who has not been consistently good in the first place. Once again, I think the opportunities they don't pounce on will eventually say even more about their competence than they ones they do. (See the starting pitcher free agents last year as an example.)

[pacopete4]

Great point CoolHandLuke. I think we get a bit caught up in names at times.

[xisxisxis]

Yep. Both theoretically at their peak, too. Will both turn 28 just before the season begins. Much rather them at rock-bottom price than committing $15-25m to some 33-ish ticking time bomb who has not been consistently good in the first place. Once again, I think the opportunities they don't pounce on will eventually say even more about their competence than they ones they do. (See the starting pitcher free agents last year as an example.)

Strawman... Strawman... Strawman...

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Last year the Perez/Spangenberg combination slashed .244/.294/.375/.669 which is terrible by almost any measure. Last year Villar slashed .261/.315/.377/.693 with the Brewers (does not include the Baltimore numbers). According to ESPN the slash line for MLB second basemen was .254/.316/.396/.712. Compare that up with team stats across the league, and the Perez/Spangenberg combo would rank 25th in OBP and 23rd in OPS when stacked against other team's second basemen. Unless the unexpected happens, it is a bottom-of-the-barrel offensive pairing the Brewers have penciled in.

 

True, but that ignores how the Brewers will use Perez/Spangenberg, vs LHP, RHP respectively:

 

.277/.304/.479/.783

.261/.332/.393/.725 (in a pitchers park BTW)

 

Every reason to believe this platoon can put up above average numbers at 2B, and .750ish is actually very realistic.

 

Yep. Both theoretically at their peak, too. Will both turn 28 just before the season begins. Much rather them at rock-bottom price than committing $15-25m to some 33-ish ticking time bomb who has not been consistently good in the first place. Once again, I think the opportunities they don't pounce on will eventually say even more about their competence than they ones they do. (See the starting pitcher free agents last year as an example.)

 

I don't know about that. I would have loved to have Jake Arrieta take the ball a couple times against the Dodgers in the NLCS. It may be arguing on a thin hypothetical line, but it can be argued that, despite getting better starting pitching than predicted, this team was one solid starting pitcher away from being in the World Series.

 

Regarding 2B, I just don't like the idea of hoping for a ceiling of average with Spangenerez, while depending on a guy who hasn't seen a AAA pitch to be the mid-season savior. If the team didn't have high expectations, that would be one thing. That isn't the case, though.

[Lathund]

I don't know about that. I would have loved to have Jake Arrieta take the ball a couple times against the Dodgers in the NLCS. It may be arguing on a thin hypothetical line, but it can be argued that, despite getting better starting pitching than predicted, this team was one solid starting pitcher away from being in the World Series.

 

Regarding 2B, I just don't like the idea of hoping for a ceiling of average with Spangenerez, while depending on a guy who hasn't seen a AAA pitch to be the mid-season savior. If the team didn't have high expectations, that would be one thing. That isn't the case, though.

 

Arrieta was just one of the free agent pitchers available though. Yu Darvish, Alex Cobb or Lance Lynn wouldn't have done anything to improve our chances, and while it's easy to judge in hindsight it's not as if it was obvious who would or wouldn't have performed well. And while playoff experience and all that might matter, it's not like Arrieta was all that great. Philly defense didn't help, but his ERA and FIP were very similar to the Brewers starters overall. Also consider how $25m for Arrieta would have impacted the ability to make additions at 2B and C this year.

 

I'm fine with what we have at 2B while awaiting Hiura and Dubon, though I wouldn't mind a Marwin Gonzalez as he'll be useful all over. When we have our top prospect almost ready at a position, I'd generally prefer to spend money elsewhere. And to get someone who we could be fairly sure would be a big improvement over the current options + Hiura it would have cost a decent amount. Murphy and DJ got 2/24, Dozier 1/9. I think spending the money we have to spend on Grandal and hopefully a pitcher of some kind improves us more.

[coolhandluke121]

Yep. Both theoretically at their peak, too. Will both turn 28 just before the season begins. Much rather them at rock-bottom price than committing $15-25m to some 33-ish ticking time bomb who has not been consistently good in the first place. Once again, I think the opportunities they don't pounce on will eventually say even more about their competence than they ones they do. (See the starting pitcher free agents last year as an example.)

Strawman... Strawman... Strawman...

 

I think your working understanding of what "strawman" means needs some fine-tuning. Go look at what Murphy, LeMahieu, and Lowrie signed for. Go look how often they've been mentioned in threads since the off season began, and even before that.

[brewcrewdue80]

Boston could get away with having one or two holes in the lineup much easier than Milwaukee. The "top-level" hitting on that club is much better than the Brewers. If one goes by OPS, Yelich would have been the third best hitter in that lineup (pretty unbelievable but true).

 

Top four qualifiers on each club, sorted by OPS.

 

Betts = .346/.438/.640/1.078

Martinez = .330/.402/.629/1.031

Bogaerts = .288/.360/.522/.883

Benintendi = .290/.366/.465/.830

 

Yelich = .326/.402/.598/1.000

Aguilar = .274/.352/.539/.890

Shaw = .241/.345/.480/.825

Cain = .308/.395/.417/.813

 

There is no shame in having a lineup led by Yelich/Aguilar/Shaw/Cain, but what Boston had put together last year was just ridiculous. Not really a surprise that they were the World Series champs after being able to throw out firepower like that on a daily basis.

 

Martinez played 93games as a DH and accumulated about 55(9inn) games played in the OF. You remove him and our top 3 are .076 ops total different. The AL advantage having DH to enjoy a big bat w/o the Defense liability. Hitters ballpark and tank team competition.

Someone put the stats together and not far from avg for all of baseball. #1 2b prospect because of the bat profile. Spangenburg is more than enough to platoon with Perez til our own Benitendi bat arrives. Why waste money on something Not needed?

Edit add: Benitendi never played 1AB at AAA. Seems like a similar bat profile.

[Yolk]

Meanwhile Oakland got Profar for what we gave up to get a lefty reliever with an 85-mph fastball...

 

On top of Oakland trading away their Competitive Balance Round A selection for Profar, they also moved a bullpen piece that they had 5 years of control of (Emilio Pagan), prospect Eli White who hit very well in AA last season, and $750,000 in International Bonus Allotments.

 

Yeah, I was slightly exaggerating due to my hope that we would make a play for Profar. I would easily have given up a couple additional depth pieces and some international money for him though. He’s versatile enough (2B/SS/3B/1B/LF) to continue getting consistent playing time even after Hiura and Dubon get the call.

[long ball]

Once they signed Grandal to upgrade at catcher it felt inevitable that they wouldn't be making any major addition at second base. It was always the best plan to upgrade at C instead of 2b if there was only room in the budget for one upgrade.

[LouisEly]

Boston could get away with having one or two holes in the lineup much easier than Milwaukee. The "top-level" hitting on that club is much better than the Brewers. If one goes by OPS, Yelich would have been the third best hitter in that lineup (pretty unbelievable but true).

 

Top four qualifiers on each club, sorted by OPS.

 

Betts = .346/.438/.640/1.078

Martinez = .330/.402/.629/1.031

Bogaerts = .288/.360/.522/.883

Benintendi = .290/.366/.465/.830

 

Yelich = .326/.402/.598/1.000

Aguilar = .274/.352/.539/.890

Shaw = .241/.345/.480/.825

Cain = .308/.395/.417/.813

 

There is no shame in having a lineup led by Yelich/Aguilar/Shaw/Cain, but what Boston had put together last year was just ridiculous. Not really a surprise that they were the World Series champs after being able to throw out firepower like that on a daily basis.

Boston also got to play Baltimore 19 times last year, including two games that they scored 19 runs against Baltimore. For as bad as Cincinnati was last year, they won 20 more games than Baltimore. Baltimore gave up 44 more runs than any other team last year. And for as much as Cincinnati is a band box, Yankee stadium is just as much of a band box.

 

They also had Toronto in the division, who gave up the 5th most runs in baseball last year. In fact, the top five teams in runs given up last year all were in the AL. The DH doesn't account for all of that. Meanwhile, the Brewers had the Cubs (4th fewest runs given up), Cardinals (13th fewest runs), and Pirates (14th fewest runs) in their division.

 

It's a little bit of chicken and egg, but I think the Brewers played on average against better pitching than the Red Sox.

[clancyphile]

The combo of what they have to play 2b is far better than what they had on opening day 2018...and that's without Hiura taking a 40 man roster spot, something that will happen sometime in 2019 if he is deserving of a callup.

 

They have upgraded at 2b this offseason, many just don't realize it yet.

 

Really? You must really like Spangenberg, because its hard for me to see "far better" than what they had in 2018, which was Villar (who had a very good season to his name) and Sogard (who was good in 2017) along with Perez. If you are comparing Villar straight up to Spangenberg, I would have to think you would take Villar. Villar at least had MLB success on his resume.

 

After 2018, Villar's success seems to be illusory - a one-year flash in the pan. Villar looks better because of Schoop's struggles in Milwaukee.

 

I think playing Spangenberg/Perez in a platoon will probably be a little better than average. The hard part is, at least against lefties, the Brewers will have their most versatile asset in the lineup instead of on the bench.

[pacopete4]

The combo of what they have to play 2b is far better than what they had on opening day 2018...and that's without Hiura taking a 40 man roster spot, something that will happen sometime in 2019 if he is deserving of a callup.

 

They have upgraded at 2b this offseason, many just don't realize it yet.

 

Really? You must really like Spangenberg, because its hard for me to see "far better" than what they had in 2018, which was Villar (who had a very good season to his name) and Sogard (who was good in 2017) along with Perez. If you are comparing Villar straight up to Spangenberg, I would have to think you would take Villar. Villar at least had MLB success on his resume.

 

After 2018, Villar's success seems to be illusory - a one-year flash in the pan. Villar looks better because of Schoop's struggles in Milwaukee.

 

I think playing Spangenberg/Perez in a platoon will probably be a little better than average. The hard part is, at least against lefties, the Brewers will have their most versatile asset in the lineup instead of on the bench.

 

Just because Perez starts at second doesn’t mean he has to finish there.

[clancyphile]

After 2018, Villar's success seems to be illusory - a one-year flash in the pan. Villar looks better because of Schoop's struggles in Milwaukee.

 

I think playing Spangenberg/Perez in a platoon will probably be a little better than average. The hard part is, at least against lefties, the Brewers will have their most versatile asset in the lineup instead of on the bench.

 

Just because Perez starts at second doesn’t mean he has to finish there.

 

True, but still, having him on the bench make for more flexibility in the double switch.

[TURBO]

It frightens me to think that Perez might get 500 at bats...

 

Be as positive as you want, I don't want this guy playing as much as he will.

[ebmackenzie]

Last year the Perez/Spangenberg combination slashed .244/.294/.375/.669 which is terrible by almost any measure.

 

Your numbers are busted.

Worst case scenario...Hiura is never ready to go in 2019, Dubon has setbacks, no viable trade prospects to be picked up at the deadline so we rely on the 2018 totals for our platoon:

 

Spang starts 105 games against RHP and slashes .261 .332 .393 .725

HPerez starts 57 games vs LHP and slashes .277 .304 .479 .783

 

In 2018, they combined to start 162 games and shows what we could have as a dependable #8 in the order all things considered and that .669 at 2B is not completely accurate.

 

PS Dubon has 10 starts at 3B over the years and could get some starts in spring training if we don't pick up Moose or anyone else (TShaw moving to 2B was more of a shocker than this nugget.)

[ebmackenzie]

It frightens me to think that Perez might get 500 at bats...

 

Be as positive as you want, I don't want this guy playing as much as he will.

 

He is a poor man's Marwin and a rich man's Yuniesky.

[Outlander]

Yep. Both theoretically at their peak, too. Will both turn 28 just before the season begins. Much rather them at rock-bottom price than committing $15-25m to some 33-ish ticking time bomb who has not been consistently good in the first place. Once again, I think the opportunities they don't pounce on will eventually say even more about their competence than they ones they do. (See the starting pitcher free agents last year as an example.)

Strawman... Strawman... Strawman...

 

I think your working understanding of what "strawman" means needs some fine-tuning. Go look at what Murphy, LeMahieu, and Lowrie signed for. Go look how often they've been mentioned in threads since the off season began, and even before that.

I agree with you here. While I have no idea what his solution to 2B is the argument for Murphy, Lowrie, etc. has been made many times by various posters so to try to say that was never discussed doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense. A Spang/Perez platoon may not outperform those other high priced free agents but as of right now it appears it will be the route the Brewers will be taking to start the year.

[FVBrewerFan]

It frightens me to think that Perez might get 500 at bats...

 

Be as positive as you want, I don't want this guy playing as much as he will.

 

No way. As I said earlier, he'll be in a strict platoon at 2B, facing LH starters. Plus a PH in other games. No way will that put him close to 500 ABs. Also, Gamel will keep Perez out of the OF vs RHP.

 

I think we all agree Stearns is not stupid, he sees the splits and knows Perez should be facing RHP as little as possible. Just as Spangenberg should never see a LHP.

[RobDeer 45]

I think Stearns will wait this out. If he can end up getting a 2b on a cheaper one year deal, he'll do it. If he can't, he lets the platoon start the year and brings up Hiura later. I don't think there is much pressure to do anything here when we have a top prospect, who should be ready for the majors this year.

[yoshii8]

I would be fairly surprised if we went in to spring with only our current options at 2b. There are too many upgrades available at this point in the offseason for us not to get one of them.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I don't understand what the harm would be in signing Marwin Gonzalez to a 3-year deal. If Hiura or Dubon come up to play 2B at some point in 2019, he's versatile enough to play anywhere and still get plenty of action. The only thing I can figure is that his contract demands are scaring teams off.

[TURBO]

The only thing I can figure is that his contract demands are scaring teams off.

 

If he was being reasonable about his demands, he'd have been gone a long time ago.

 

Odds are, he is asking too much.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

The only thing I can figure is that his contract demands are scaring teams off.

 

If he was being reasonable about his demands, he'd have been gone a long time ago.

 

Odds are, he is asking too much.

 

Well, he's a Boras client. Dots are pretty easy to connect I suppose.