How would past legends fare today?

[TexasCheesehead]

You always hear people rightfully saying you cannot compare eras, which is completely true. The game has changed a lot over the years...but for sake of my own curiosity I wanted to ask a question that is probably impossible to answer...how do you think guys like Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb would fare in today's game? Would they still be dominant baseball players, or on a different level entirely? Obviously you can look back at more recent players like Mantle and know they'd still be dominant today, but when you really go back to the earliest days, would we still see Babe Ruth as a star in today's game?

[trwi7]

How would Ruth fare going against a 100 mph fastball and 90 mph slider with a cigar hanging out of his mouth? Probably not good.

[OnTheBlack]

You always hear people rightfully saying you cannot compare eras, which is completely true. The game has changed a lot over the years...but for sake of my own curiosity I wanted to ask a question that is probably impossible to answer...how do you think guys like Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb would fare in today's game? Would they still be dominant baseball players, or on a different level entirely? Obviously you can look back at more recent players like Mantle and know they'd still be dominant today, but when you really go back to the earliest days, would we still see Babe Ruth as a star in today's game?

 

 

Well...first of all, I don't agree that Mantle would be dominant today. I don't believe that Mantle would even make it to the big leagues.

 

But going back to Babe and Cobb? I think Babe Ruth would pretty good at slow pitch softball and that's about it.

 

It's a completely unfair comparison though. Babe Ruth played with a 40/36 bat(which is basically a full grown Maple tree). I think he'd hit much worse than an average pitcher today. And I think Ottavino was 100 pct right. He'd strike Ruth out 100 times out of 100 times.

 

This is assuming that you're literally talking about taking the 1920 version of Babe Ruth and not changing his workout, not changing anything and then just planting them into a lineup today.

 

People are soooo much bigger, stronger, faster now than they were then it's not even funny. Even in the past 50 years I believe the average height has gone up 2 inches in the United States. Ruth was facing what almost would amount to BP today with some spitballs and some curves thrown in, but nothing close to the same velocity and nowhere NEAR the same spin.

 

This doesn't change anything in MY personal opinion when it comes to the greatness of Ruth or of Cobb...or of Mantle or Mays. They still compare with the greatest of all time. I still think Ted Williams is the greatest hitter ever. You have to take into account he didn't play against any minorities, but he also missed roughly 5 full years serving as a pilot in both WW2 and the Korean War...5 years in his PRIME. That's probaly another 200 home runs, 800 more hits, 600 more RBI's...which I get aren't as important...but still.

 

 

I think it'd be even more interesting to compare the greats of the 70's, 80's to today and see how they'd fair with the shifts, the increase in strikeouts, how they'd adjust to the left handed specialist or use of bullpens just in general. Would Mike Schmidt, Yount, or some of those have the same success.

[OnTheBlack]

How would Ruth fare going against a 100 mph fastball and 90 mph slider with a cigar hanging out of his mouth? Probably not good.

 

I know you're kidding, but it's not like it's been THAT long since players were smoking during games under the dugout. Wasn't Mark Grace a chain-smoker?

[Point Beer Is Best]

Agree with the notion that if you just plucked these guys as-is and placed them into present day competition, they would be overwhelmed. They got by on natural talent. Weight-training was taboo or misunderstood, and nutrition science was in its infancy.

 

That being said, I'm not sure that some of those guys would have been willing to put in the work to better themselves. Training is what makes naturally good athletes great, and what makes even better athletes elite. Don Hutson was the best WR the NFL ever saw until Jerry Rice. Given that he was so far above his peers athletically (albeit in an NFL that consisted mostly of white players), given the proper training and nutrition regimen I think he could play in today's NFL. Same for a guy like Jim Thorpe. Now, Babe Ruth? I don't know, man. He doesn't strike me as the type of guy who would suddenly become a gym rat, but maybe he had the elite bat speed that could still play. Honestly he could just as easily be Brooks Kieschnick as he could David Ortiz.

[pacopete4]

Ruth would still clobber them out of the park because guys with that talent would be just as good if they were brought up training like these players are today.

[FVBrewerFan]

No African-American or Latino players back in Ruth's day, that's one advantage he had. Other than that, it's impossible to compare. People in general were smaller back then, no shifts, pitching was much different and Ruth didn't have to face 3 different pitchers every game. If 1920s Ruth was dropped into 2019 he wouldn't be very good. If I remember right, he had a fairly long swing.

 

But go back just 20 years or so, Jeff Cirillo never made much when he played, he would make a ton today.

[MrTPlush]

Ruth would still clobber them out of the park because guys with that talent would be just as good if they were brought up training like these players are today.

 

This is a fair take on the matter...to a point. My problem with it is the game would still be vastly different than their game of yesterday. Pro sports were the lucrative giant they are now back then. So the amount of talent and depth back then was probably seriously limited compared to todays game. I think the amount of talent back then not playing baseball is a lot because there just wasn't to motivation to do so. Todays back end roster guys (notably pitchers) are probably way better than what was there in the early 1900s. I would be surprised if the comparison is somewhat like the Japanese league v. the MLB. Good talent, but maybe not quite even ground.

 

My other issue is the senses needed in yesterdays game versus today's game. They pitched a lot slower back then and threw less variance of pitches. I think this is a big deal that doesn't make Ruth dominating todays game that much of a sure thing. Back then you didn't need the sheer speed to recognize pitches as you do now. If Ruth would have had trouble with pitch recognition of 90+ mph then he would be a large failure in today's game. For instance a high school kid may dominate and recognize 75-85, but give him 90 or even 95+ and he can't do it no matter how much training he gets. You have to be naturally gifted to have that kind of speed recognition. Maybe Ruth had it? Maybe not...

 

I think many of yesterdays game would be great if they had todays training...but I bet a big majority would actually fail because they don't have the natural ability needed now.

[stoutdude04]

No African-American or Latino players back in Ruth's day, that's one advantage he had. Other than that, it's impossible to compare. People in general were smaller back then, no shifts, pitching was much different and Ruth didn't have to face 3 different pitchers every game. If 1920s Ruth was dropped into 2019 he wouldn't be very good. If I remember right, he had a fairly long swing.

 

But go back just 20 years or so, Jeff Cirillo never made much when he played, he would make a ton today.

 

I am pretty sure there were shifts. Someone posted a picture once against...someone from the Yankees I think. Can't remember who exactly. Your overall point is right on though.

[JosephC]

Just as fair a question is, how would today's player fare if you took all the roids and supplements and nutritional information and modern training equipment away from them and put them back 50 years? My guess is that not many of them would be in the same class as Aaron or Mays.

 

The game evolves and technology changes, which makes these types of questions and comparisons really pointless.

[cesser000]

Just as fair a question is, how would today's player fare if you took all the roids and supplements and nutritional information and modern training equipment away from them and put them back 50 years? My guess is that not many of them would be in the same class as Aaron or Mays.

THIS ^^^

 

And if we're talking about Ruth and Cobb, you have to go back about 90-110 years ago. Players back then played for love of the game, obviously not for the paltry salaries practically all of them could only make during those times. How many players from today would be as motivated and continue to play baseball if they could only ever hope to make the same pittance, and not the boatloads of cash they do today?

[jerichoholicninja]

I have always assumed that the best baseball player ever never even actually played the game. It was probably some guy in the 1940's who destroyed high school competition but when he graduated had to go work in the mines and never touched a ball the rest of his life.

 

The early professional athletes were only professional athletes because they happened to be extremely talented and were fortunate enough that someone noticed them and saved them from working in a factory. Nowadays, kids from an early age have the desire, drive, and opportunities to work hard for years to be professional athletes. I doubt Ruth or Cobb put in half the work the average 12 year old baseball player does today and they were stars of their era while 99% of 12 year olds today won't even play professional baseball at any level.

[OnTheBlack]

Just as fair a question is, how would today's player fare if you took all the roids and supplements and nutritional information and modern training equipment away from them and put them back 50 years? My guess is that not many of them would be in the same class as Aaron or Mays.

 

The game evolves and technology changes, which makes these types of questions and comparisons really pointless.

 

 

How is a discussion that multiple people find interesting and engaging pointless?

[OnTheBlack]

I have always assumed that the best baseball player ever never even actually played the game. It was probably some guy in the 1940's who destroyed high school competition but when he graduated had to go work in the mines and never touched a ball the rest of his life.

 

The early professional athletes were only professional athletes because they happened to be extremely talented and were fortunate enough that someone noticed them and saved them from working in a factory. Nowadays, kids from an early age have the desire, drive, and opportunities to work hard for years to be professional athletes. I doubt Ruth or Cobb put in half the work the average 12 year old baseball player does today and they were stars of their era while 99% of 12 year olds today won't even play professional baseball at any level.

 

 

Maybe just a hint of hyperbole to this, but I think your point is legitimate for most players. I'm sure the legends of how little effort Ruth put into the game are exaggerated, but if the stories are to be believed, Cobb worked his arse off.

 

Of course if you believe Ty Cobb stories, he was a horrible racist and not a guy who's family was forced from their home for being abolitionists and then advocating for civil rights and then latter becoming a huge Jackie Robinson fan who said baseball should have been integrated looong before him because one idiot drunk wrote a book and didn't worry about fact checking.

[homer]

Are we assuming past legend on the same diet and exercise regimen they were on back in the day? Or on a modern day routine?

 

Regardless, Ted Williams would have ripped anybody.

[jerichoholicninja]

I have always assumed that the best baseball player ever never even actually played the game. It was probably some guy in the 1940's who destroyed high school competition but when he graduated had to go work in the mines and never touched a ball the rest of his life.

 

The early professional athletes were only professional athletes because they happened to be extremely talented and were fortunate enough that someone noticed them and saved them from working in a factory. Nowadays, kids from an early age have the desire, drive, and opportunities to work hard for years to be professional athletes. I doubt Ruth or Cobb put in half the work the average 12 year old baseball player does today and they were stars of their era while 99% of 12 year olds today won't even play professional baseball at any level.

 

 

Maybe just a hint of hyperbole to this, but I think your point is legitimate for most players. I'm sure the legends of how little effort Ruth put into the game are exaggerated, but if the stories are to be believed, Cobb worked his arse off.

 

I guess I don't mean they didn't put any effort in, they just didn't know how or that that was something that could be done because people didn't see athletics as something to strive for. As for my 12 year old example, what were Ruth and Cobb doing at 12 to be better baseball players? Probably playing stickball in the street or a field with their friends a couple times a week. Any 12 year old with talent today probably has a personal coach, plays on a travel ball team 12 months a year, and has a fitness and nutrition regime. What it takes to develop into a professional athlete today is in no way comparable to what it took probably even 30 years ago.

[FVBrewerFan]

I actually think the travel teams and personal coaches are for the 99% of kids who will never play professional ball. The special kids will be drafted without any of that, but I digress.

[homer]

Another thing to remember is there were fewer teams back in the day. In Babe Ruth's prime there were 16 teams total so to be on a roster you has to be really, really good. Granted they didn't allow people of color to play and there were no Latin players yet.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I always look at this debate through the lens of how dominant players were during their eras. It's a different game, but then again there's nobody in today's game hitting more home runs per season than the totals of competing TEAMS, like Ruth did several times during his career. Back in Ruth's era there just wasn't the nationwide, let alone world wide exposure to the game where you knew the most talented players were always found and brought to MLB - so despite having many fewer MLB teams, one has to question the overall level of competition he faced on a consistent basis. To me, today's era of travel teams, personal coaches, and scouting services are mostly just another thing parents can spend $ on, but their best contribution to baseball is how much more exposure opportunities they give kids - particularly from areas of the country that historically are difficult to get noticed.

 

There's alot to be said about God-given talent being timeless and transferable across different eras. Ruth obviously wasn't a gym rat, but he was the most talented player in his era by such a large margin that nobody since has even come close to equaling. The most accurate comparison may be taking roided up Bonds or prime ARod and having them play every day against DIII college baseball-level competition. Some of that is just how talented Ruth was during his era - some of that is the other factors that probably diluted the overall talent base MLB used.

[Baldkin]

I still think Ted Williams is the greatest hitter ever. You have to take into account he didn't play against any minorities, but he also missed roughly 5 full years serving as a pilot in both WW2 and the Korean War...5 years in his PRIME. That's probaly another 200 home runs, 800 more hits, 600 more RBI's...which I get aren't as important...but still.

 

Sorry, I had to correct this, but Williams absolutely did play against minorities. He didn't really play against a fully integrated league like today, but he played until 1960 and Larry Doby debuted in the AL in 1947.

[NievesNoNO]

Yeah, the talent would transcend time. I agree, if given today's training and luxuries, the older generation greats would be as good today as they were then.

 

If you're asking, "could Ruth walk straight out of the 1930's and drill a HR off Hader" I seriously doubt it.

[rickh150]

Yount questioned if he could play in today's game, batting against upper 90's mph heat daily. As a kid in the 80's, I remember hearing that a hard thrower was in the 90's...... a liltle different than today when soft tossers are in the low 90's.

[OnTheBlack]

I still think Ted Williams is the greatest hitter ever. You have to take into account he didn't play against any minorities, but he also missed roughly 5 full years serving as a pilot in both WW2 and the Korean War...5 years in his PRIME. That's probaly another 200 home runs, 800 more hits, 600 more RBI's...which I get aren't as important...but still.

 

Sorry, I had to correct this, but Williams absolutely did play against minorities. He didn't really play against a fully integrated league like today, but he played until 1960 and Larry Doby debuted in the AL in 1947.

 

 

Good catch. Not sure what I was thinking. I guess I was thinking about the first half of his career, or the first part of it. And then also the absence of the Latino players who have such a huge impact on today's game and the fact that there were very few black pitchers. But you're absolutely right. He did face some African-American's during his career.

 

It's a shame though that guys like Pagie weren't facing hitters like Williams on a regular basis when both were at the top of their game or Dihigo, or what Gibson could have done vs the same pitching.

[OnTheBlack]

Yeah, the talent would transcend time. I agree, if given today's training and luxuries, the older generation greats would be as good today as they were then.

 

If you're asking, "could Ruth walk straight out of the 1930's and drill a HR off Hader" I seriously doubt it.

 

 

I took the question to be the second part. If the historical version of Babe Ruth came up today, how would he fare.

[3and2Fastball]

I think Ruth & Cobb would be similar to Mike Trout: perennial MVP candidates, obvious 1st Ballot Hall of Famers, putting up 9 & 10 WAR seasons year in & year out. I don't think Cobb would hit .400+ in today's game, but he'd be a guy hitting .350 with Billy Hamilton's baserunning ability. That is pretty valuable!