Mariano Rivera, Edgar Martinez, Roy Halladay and Mike Mussina elected to HOF

[tmwiese55]

Right I didn't deny that he is. But no one mentions he blew two championships. I know its just hyperbole and all that to exaggerate things like 'unhittable' and phrases like that, etc. But seriously the guy blew two championships. And like I said initially, its inevitable with that many attempts/inning like he had for something to happen. It just never gets mentioned, at all.

 

All in all I'd say it's just more of a commentary on how overrated closers are in general. Saw something on twitter yesterday mathematically breaking down how basically no closer should make the Hall. Again, I'm not trying to be a hater on him. I know he did his role better than anyone else has done it. But basically if you replace him with any other top notch reliever they probably win the same amount of titles. Hoffman for the whole time or cycling through guys as they became FAs as long as you replaced with another good guy it likely makes no difference (especially since even Rivera blew 2).

[KeithStone53151]

Mariano Rivera is the greatest post season performer of all time & it's not even close...

 

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/9/26/2449377/mariano-rivera-king-of-postseason-wpa

 

Hard to believe a guy nicknamed "Mr. October" didn't come in higher on those lists. Not trying to argue he's been more valuable than Rivera, just expected him higher on this list.

[long ball]

Slightly off topic...

 

Does anyone have a full list of HOF voters? I could only find partial lists.

 

My question stems from market representation. NY has like 50 voters. I could only find 1 HOF voter among the Wisconsin media (Haudricourt). It obviously makes sense that NY has a larger contingent for many reasons. However, I wonder if the Brewers ever have a borderline HOF candidate what type of push they'd get for election if Haudricourt (and probably Mccalvy and others at some point) are the only people stanning for them.

[KeithStone53151]

Slightly off topic...

 

Does anyone have a full list of HOF voters? I could only find partial lists.

 

My question stems from market representation. NY has like 50 voters. I could only find 1 HOF voter among the Wisconsin media (Haudricourt). It obviously makes sense that NY has a larger contingent for many reasons. However, I wonder if the Brewers ever have a borderline HOF candidate what type of push they'd get for election if Haudricourt (and probably Mccalvy and others at some point) are the only people stanning for them.

 

This explains why Mussina got in...

[coolhandluke121]

I don't believe that any closer should be in, but I'm okay with Rivera. Just a ridiculous entitlement that they get so much credit though. It's just a circular self-fulfilling prophecy to put them in a position that's tailored specifically to give them an unfair share of the glory. I think it's because people don't have the attention span to pay attention to entire games, so they put excess weight on what happens in the 9th.

[jerichoholicninja]

Are the writers the only ones who get votes? I thought that all living HOF'ers got votes too but maybe that was a different HOF. Anyway, while I think writers certainly should have some say I think the majority of the voting should be done by players, coaches, and GM's.

[StearnsFTW]

I don't believe that any closer should be in, but I'm okay with Rivera. Just a ridiculous entitlement that they get so much credit though. It's just a circular self-fulfilling prophecy to put them in a position that's tailored specifically to give them an unfair share of the glory. I think it's because people don't have the attention span to pay attention to entire games, so they put excess weight on what happens in the 9th.

 

I agree. Rivera is the only relief pitcher I would have in.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Early in his career, Rivera did some of his best postseason relief work as a setup guy when the Yankees had wettland closing games. And the postseason games he blew weren't on October HRs...they were basically ducksnorts and shattered bats that found holes.

 

With all those new York writers/voters, they'll probably have to split the HOF into two wings soon. The hall of fame in its current gift shop and the hall of Jeter that will cover the rest of the venue

[MrTPlush]

Mariano Rivera blew two championships because he gave up one run in two seperate games?

 

Yah...blaming him is quite the stretch there.

[tmwiese55]

Mariano Rivera blew two championships because he gave up one run in two seperate games?

 

Yah...blaming him is quite the stretch there.

 

Umm yea one was game 7 and his team had a 2-1 lead going to the 9th and he gave up 2 runs to blow it. That would be the most clear cut blowing of a championship that is basically possible for a pitcher who of course relies on defenders to help him. Or really any outside of a Buckner type ground ball to step on a base. Vs the Red Sox, game 4 he had a 1 run lead facing the bottom of the Sox order and gave up the tying run. Then in game 5 he came in with runners on but with a lead and allowed the run to score. Sure in this case they still would have had to go to the WS and win but obviously their team was better and the Sox swept the Cards(I think). So yea his team had two more titles basically won (one for sure), put the ball in his hands and he lost it.

 

Think of it this way, Jordan is lauded for 6-0 in the Finals right. Well, what if instead he went 6-2 and in those two he had the lead at the end and threw a bad pass that led to layups for the other team to win the championships. Of course he'd still be amazing for the 6 he did win but he'd also get ripped for blowing the others and it would be mentioned in his legacy. Like how it is for LBJ blowing the series vs Dallas up 2-1 with a big lead late in game 4 to go up 3-1. Actually, Rivera situation is even worse because he had nothing to do with getting those leads whereas Jordan obviously would've been the key reason his teams were in position to win. Maybe Robert Horry would be a better comp, tons of titles with him hitting clutch late shots to win/ice games but he of course wasn't the key reason they were in those positions. Well, if in two others he straight up blew the game and cost the better players the lead they built i think he'd get criticized for it. Or at least be mentioned in the discussion.

 

And yes I acknowledge he's the best closer ever and overall was amazing in the postseason. Just pointing out how this doesn't get mentioned, at all. I'm also fine with putting him in the Hall, even as a no closers type guy like me can accept him on account of so many postseason moments and how much he was involved in. He's obviously just a huge part of baseball history. Just have to put a blinder onto how it's kind of fabricated to put him in those positions.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I feel like the moral of this story is never fail....ever.

[Ennder]

Rivera's career WPA is 57.3, That puts him ahead of Ruth, Manny, Gwynn, Schmidt, Rose, Dimaggio. He is an easy HOF player with on path to suggest he isn't when you add context.

 

Hoffman and Gossage are in the range of players like Prince, Kiner, Santo and Baines. Probably not HOF players but since they decided being friends with Baines is enough to make him a HOF maybe they belong.

[coolhandluke121]

Rivera's career WPA is 57.3, That puts him ahead of Ruth, Manny, Gwynn, Schmidt, Rose, Dimaggio.

 

I mean that says an awful lot about the WPA stat, doesn't it??

 

This speaks to my point about it being a circular process by manipulating relief appearances to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of their greatness. In other words, just give them all kinds of juicy WPA opportunities and then use WPA as evidence of their greatness.

 

Imagine leaving a really good hitter on the bench until you had someone in scoring position in a close game, at which point you use him to PH. I bet his WPA would be pretty high, but that would obviously be pretty stupid. You would never use your best hitters that way when you can get so much more value out of them by starting them. A good analogy might be if teams all had a more consistent Thames/Aguilar type on the bench and used him to PH for the Arcia/Perez/Kratz types with runners in scoring position in close games. Clearly that player should not be in the HOF, at least not if the HOF is going to have any dignity left, but I bet they'd have tons of high leverage hits and clutch RBI's and WPA.

 

There's also the issue of the ridiculous advantages closers have, particularly with regard to cutters (and some other pitches like extreme fastballs) that starters can't use much if they want to last more than a few years. I think there are literally hundreds of starters not in the hall of fame who would be if they had had the good fortune of not being quite good enough to start but good enough to have a clean inning 2-3 times a week and spend their whole career doing it. Rivera was far enough ahead of other relievers to be a reasonable choice, but again, how hard is it to be better than a bunch of other pitchers who weren't good enough to pitch 150+ innings per year?

 

Relievers are still almost all failed starters. No amount of coddling them to inflate their glory and WPA stats can change that. Some manipulation of leverage is fine, and a good reliever is plenty valuable, but they're by far the least valuable players in the hall of fame and they're very lucky to be there.

[OldHeidelberg]

Just looking at his stats, Martinez had fewer homers than Braun and fewer hits than Surhoff. A lot of his other numbers are really good but considering the era and the suspicions others have brought up about the late career surge I wouldn't have voted for him. As a DH and professional hitter I think those counting stats should be better for HOF consideration.

[topper09er]

Mariano Rivera is the greatest post season performer of all time & it's not even close...

 

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/9/26/2449377/mariano-rivera-king-of-postseason-wpa

 

Sure it is close if you actually account for all the massive advantages Rivera had such as 3 rounds of playoffs per year and only pitching 1 inning a game. Plus the guy single handedly blew an entire world series title by throwing a bunt into center field and failing to get 3 outs. That's the only time he ever pitched in a world series game 7 also.

 

If Pedro Martinez or Randy Johnson only pitched 1 inning a game they would have made Rivera's stats look like Jeff Suppan

[tmwiese55]

I feel like the moral of this story is never fail....ever.

 

lol good line.

 

But the point was to say that resumes should be looked at in full, not just ignored for some and not for others and for some reason this is completely whitewashed for him. Which seems so out of place in the current ultra negative nitpicky world of ESPN talking heads and twitter. Generally speaking I'm on the opposite side of this stuff, like when the criticism basically every loss LBJ has for hours on end on ESPN, same for Rodgers now, you know what I mean. It's constant bashing to get views/clicks. Yet he gets a pass on it. 25 years ago it would've made sense, same way MJ gets a pass on all his early career stuff, retiring, etc. Now, I'm just saying I'm surprised it literally never gets brought up that this 'unhittable', 'lights out', 'give the ball to him game over' etc guy had blown games to basically cost two championships. One as directly as possible for a P pretty much.

 

Still the best closer ever and crazy good but no need to sugarcoat or embellish, that's it.

[sveumrules]

Mariano Rivera is the greatest post season performer of all time & it's not even close...

 

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/9/26/2449377/mariano-rivera-king-of-postseason-wpa

 

Sure it is close if you actually account for all the massive advantages Rivera had such as 3 rounds of playoffs per year and only pitching 1 inning a game. Plus the guy single handedly blew an entire world series title by throwing a bunt into center field and failing to get 3 outs. That's the only time he ever pitched in a world series game 7 also.

 

If Pedro Martinez or Randy Johnson only pitched 1 inning a game they would have made Rivera's stats look like Jeff Suppan

 

Rivera's 141 postseason innings were pitched over the course of 96 games. He pitched more than one inning 58 times, so more often than not he was pitching more than one inning a game.

 

Sure he blew a WSG7. He gave up a single earned run in nine other postseason games too. His other 86 games & 126.2 postseason innings he gave up 0 ER.

 

Pedro & Randy were better pitchers than Mariano. If you're saying they would have only given up like five or six earned runs instead of the eleven that Rivera gave up I believe that is possible in the theoretical realm.

[Baldkin]

Just looking at his stats, Martinez had fewer homers than Braun and fewer hits than Surhoff. A lot of his other numbers are really good but considering the era and the suspicions others have brought up about the late career surge I wouldn't have voted for him. As a DH and professional hitter I think those counting stats should be better for HOF consideration.

 

Why? Is it Edgars fault the Mariners kept him in the minors until he was 27?

He had a .900 OPS in AAA for his age 24 and 25 seasons.

 

Oh yeah, not to mention he OBP'd .400 for 11 years and had a career 14.8 BB%. Compare that to Tony Gwynn's 7.7% career, that's an extra 800 AB's he didn't get. Or, 1.5 seasons just from WALKING.

[OldHeidelberg]

Just looking at his stats, Martinez had fewer homers than Braun and fewer hits than Surhoff. A lot of his other numbers are really good but considering the era and the suspicions others have brought up about the late career surge I wouldn't have voted for him. As a DH and professional hitter I think those counting stats should be better for HOF consideration.

 

Why? Is it Edgars fault the Mariners kept him in the minors until he was 27?

He had a .900 OPS in AAA for his age 24 and 25 seasons.

 

Oh yeah, not to mention he OBP'd .400 for 11 years and had a career 14.8 BB%. Compare that to Tony Gwynn's 7.7% career, that's an extra 800 AB's he didn't get. Or, 1.5 seasons just from WALKING.

 

He certainly walked his way to the HOF, that OBP% is impressive and got him a ton of WAR as well. I guess I can't get past the PED's suspicions and think some of his career stats aren't that great HOF speaking. Comparing his and Braun's per 162 game averages Braun is the better player, maybe not a fair comparison for Edgar but I think most here would agree even without the PED issue Braun falls short in the counting stats due to his injury issues. Yet even a modest late career surge by Braun would push some of his stats beyond what Edgar accomplished. I am not trying to make this another Braun thread just comparing Martinez to a Brewer we know well. He stuck with the Mariners and they are a hard luck franchise like the Brewers so I am glad he got in for their fans, really I was just struck by his hit and hr numbers, considering how I remember him I thought he was more of a near 3000/400 type guy who was shunned because of his era and being a DH.