Mariano Rivera, Edgar Martinez, Roy Halladay and Mike Mussina elected to HOF

[reillymcshane]

Not a bad group.

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/25826814/mariano-rivera-edgar-martinez-roy-halladay-mike-mussina-elected-baseball-hall-fame

[adambr2]

Mariano the first ever unanimous HOF selection.

 

Please don't take this to mean that he's not deserving but to me that's kind of a surprising 1st ever unanimous. Never won a Cy Young. Only once was in the top 5 in MVP voting.

 

Again I don't say this to mean he's not deserving of it, but with all the legendary greats who have somehow not been unanimous, Rivera just seems like a surprising candidate to me to break the trend.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think it probably has more to do with the baseball purists dying off than him being the best player of all time.

[adambr2]

I think it probably has more to do with the baseball purists dying off than him being the best player of all time.

 

Yeah I always shook my head at the "don't vote a guy in on his first ballot" group. If you think a guy belongs in the HOF then freaking vote for him.

[JimH5]

I don't know why it's so important for a lot of people that Player X be unanimously elected when the Hall itself makes no such distinction. Rivera is no more of a Hall of Famer than any of the other people enshrined.

 

I think this is a good class. The writers didn't elect anyone undeserving.

[LouisEly]

I'm sorry, but I can't get behind Edgar Martinez. IMO, he belongs in the "Hall of the Very, Very Good", and I am suspect about his power peaking in his mid-late 30's, much less spending so much time as a DH.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm sorry, but I can't get behind Edgar Martinez. IMO, he belongs in the "Hall of the Very, Very Good", and I am suspect about his power peaking in his mid-late 30's, much less spending so much time as a DH.

 

Yeah, totally. I looked it up, and from age 32-38 he exceeded his best OPS before age 32 (not counting his 46 p.a. rookie year) every single year. And he turned 32 in 1995. Hmmm....

[sveumrules]

The best four year stretch of Molitor's career was between ages 34 & 37. His 2nd through 5th best OPS+ marks came in those seasons, behind only his 1987 campaign.

 

What was he on? Or was it what he was off? Or are certain hitters, even among the very best of the very best, just outliers?

[coolhandluke121]

The best four year stretch of Molitor's career was between ages 34 & 37. His 2nd through 5th best OPS+ marks came in those seasons, behind only his 1987 campaign.

 

What was he on? Or was it what he was off? Or are certain hitters, even among the very best of the very best, just outliers?

 

There are lots of other viable explanations in his case. He had constant nagging injuries early in his career, and the bad habits you alluded to also probably had a negative impact on his performance. Also, "2nd through 5th best years" still isn't as improbably as"7 best years" like Edgar. Those good years also clearly started before the big PED influx.

 

Yeah, there are outliers. I'm not dying on this hill. It's just a little suspicious to me. I guess Martinez had some injuries that moved him to DH as well. But he wasn't as great as Molitor early in his career, and he was a DH for longer if I'm not mistaken.

[clancyphile]

The best four year stretch of Molitor's career was between ages 34 & 37. His 2nd through 5th best OPS+ marks came in those seasons, behind only his 1987 campaign.

 

What was he on? Or was it what he was off? Or are certain hitters, even among the very best of the very best, just outliers?

 

From ages 30-39, he only had one season below an .800 OPS. Much of it was probably shifting to being primarily a designated hitter.

[jerichoholicninja]

Rivera being unanimous was a chance error on the voter's part. Each one just assumed someone else would leave him off their ballot but nobody actually did.

[Ennder]

Rivera being unanimous was a chance error on the voter's part. Each one just assumed someone else would leave him off their ballot but nobody actually did.

 

I think it is a sign that like 80% of the truly awful voters are gone. There are still a few left but most of the just useless voters have lost their votes. With how awful the veteran's committee is the entire process is invalidated now though. It wouldn't surprise me if they put Pat Listach or Billy Joe Robidoux in, they just are voting for guys they liked at this point.

 

Griffey, Ripken, Maddux all deserved this way more but you had these old baseball guys with no clue about the game voting with their hearts rather than their minds.

[dlk9s]

I'm actually a little surprised that Rivera was unanimous (not that I care at all). I kind of figure that since there were so many players on the ballot who people believed were deserving, that someone would take a vote from Rivera and give it to someone else because they knew Rivera would get plenty of votes.

[Invader3K]

I think it is a sign that like 80% of the truly awful voters are gone. There are still a few left but most of the just useless voters have lost their votes. With how awful the veteran's committee is the entire process is invalidated now though. It wouldn't surprise me if they put Pat Listach or Billy Joe Robidoux in, they just are voting for guys they liked at this point.

 

Griffey, Ripken, Maddux all deserved this way more but you had these old baseball guys with no clue about the game voting with their hearts rather than their minds.

 

Yes. There have been some voters who haven't covered baseball in years. Does the guy who used to cover Olympics baseball back in the '80s or whatever still have a vote?

[KeithStone53151]

I don't know that I agree that voting is better now or will be better going forward than it is was. This is the hall of fame, not the hall of very good. I see comments from someone like Haudricourt where he'd vote for 15 or 16 guys if he was allowed. The writers are too liberal in their voting and just want to fling as many players as possible into the hall of fame. It's supposed to be an exclusive group of the very best players to ever play the game.

 

All that said, many of those old voters were weird about not voting for someone on first ballot no matter what. I cannot figure out for the life of me how Chipper and Griffey weren't unanimous first ballot guys. I'd argue both were more deserving of being unanimous than Rivera, but at this point we're splitting hairs as all 3 guys are clearly hall worthy.

[Austin Tatious]

Count me in the group dismayed at the “Hall of Very Good.” Baines, Lee Smith, Mussina. Very good IMO, not Hall of Fame.

 

I wonder if the steroid thing is helping push through guys who would be further down the list.

 

On MLB network, they talked about Larry Walker (face palm) and Curt Schilling. I guess if you let Mussina in for post season success you could do the same with Schilling. Same story. But Walker? Come on now.

 

I think the NFL does a better job policing all that.

[sveumrules]

Vlad Guerrero | 9,059 PAs | 140 OPS+ | 59.4 WAR

Larry Walker | 8,030 PAs | 141 OPS+ | 72.7 WAR

 

Tom Glavine | 4,413 IP | 118 ERA+ | 74.1 WAR

Mike Mussina | 3,562 IP | 123 ERA+ | 82.9 WAR

Curt Schilling | 3,261 IP | 127 ERA+ | 80.6 WAR

[KeithStone53151]

Vlad Guerrero | 9,059 PAs | 140 OPS+ | 59.4 WAR

Larry Walker | 8,030 PAs | 141 OPS+ | 72.7 WAR

 

Tom Glavine | 4,413 IP | 118 ERA+ | 74.1 WAR

Mike Mussina | 3,562 IP | 123 ERA+ | 82.9 WAR

Curt Schilling | 3,261 IP | 127 ERA+ | 80.6 WAR

 

Walker's numbers are heavily aided by Coors field. 278/370/495 are his away career numbers. Very good numbers, absolutely...but should that stat line be in the hall?

 

Mussina I can understand to some degree due to longevity and postseason success, but he was never really THAT good. He never won a Cy Young, finished in the top 5 a bunch but man the field was weak when he did. His best finish was 2nd in 1999 with a 3.5 ERA, he must have the worst ever stat line for a 2nd place CY young candidate. He also finished 5th with a 4.81 ERA in 1996. Mussina was simply a very good player for a long time, he was never an elite pitcher in the game.

 

Schilling is probably more deserving than Mussina, but won't get in for off the diamond reasons. He had better career numbers and greater postseason success, including a world series MVP and the whole bloody sock thing. Schilling was very close to an elite pitcher, and definitely was exactly that during the postseason...when it mattered most.

[Baldkin]

Vlad Guerrero | 9,059 PAs | 140 OPS+ | 59.4 WAR

Larry Walker | 8,030 PAs | 141 OPS+ | 72.7 WAR

 

Tom Glavine | 4,413 IP | 118 ERA+ | 74.1 WAR

Mike Mussina | 3,562 IP | 123 ERA+ | 82.9 WAR

Curt Schilling | 3,261 IP | 127 ERA+ | 80.6 WAR

 

Walker's numbers are heavily aided by Coors field. 278/370/495 are his away career numbers. Very good numbers, absolutely...but should that stat line be in the hall?

 

Mussina I can understand to some degree due to longevity and postseason success, but he was never really THAT good. He never won a Cy Young, finished in the top 5 a bunch but man the field was weak when he did. His best finish was 2nd in 1999 with a 3.5 ERA, he must have the worst ever stat line for a 2nd place CY young candidate. He also finished 5th with a 4.81 ERA in 1996. Mussina was simply a very good player for a long time, he was never an elite pitcher in the game.

 

Schilling is probably more deserving than Mussina, but won't get in for off the diamond reasons. He had better career numbers and greater postseason success, including a world series MVP and the whole bloody sock thing. Schilling was very close to an elite pitcher, and definitely was exactly that during the postseason...when it mattered most.

 

You greatly underrate how good of a pitcher Mussina was, and using ERA to do it, when he pitched during the highest run era ever, is a terrible way to judge a guy.

 

He probably should've won the Cy Young in 2001, but he went 17-11, while his teammate, who gave up more runs, had a worse ERA+ and had less K's and more BB went 20-3, so he ran away with the Cy Young award.

 

Nolan Ryan has a career ERA of 3.19. His ERA+ is 112. He was 12% better than league average over his career.

Mike Mussina has an ERA of 3.68. His ERA+ is 123 for his career. 23% better than league average.

 

He's every bit a deserving HOF, his 10 year stretch from 1991-2001 was incredible.

[KeithStone53151]

You greatly underrate how good of a pitcher Mussina was, and using ERA to do it, when he pitched during the highest run era ever, is a terrible way to judge a guy.

 

He probably should've won the Cy Young in 2001, but he went 17-11, while his teammate, who gave up more runs, had a worse ERA+ and had less K's and more BB went 20-3, so he ran away with the Cy Young award.

 

Nolan Ryan has a career ERA of 3.19. His ERA+ is 112. He was 12% better than league average over his career.

Mike Mussina has an ERA of 3.68. His ERA+ is 123 for his career. 23% better than league average.

 

He's every bit a deserving HOF, his 10 year stretch from 1991-2001 was incredible.

 

ERA+ isn't the only metric that matters. Mussina also didn't rack up strikeouts like Ryan did. There's something to be said about a guy that struck out 5700 guys over his career.

 

During that 10 year stretch you mention, he was top 10 in WAR in MLB 4 times among SP...and never higher than 3rd. He was simply a very good SP for a long time, never truly great and not up there with the Maddux/Clemens/Johnson/Pedro/Smoltz/Schilling group...he's a significant step below all those guys.

[Baldkin]

Yes, he's not one of the 10 best pitchers of all-time. He was every bit as good as Schilling and Smoltz and Glavine.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_P.shtml

29th all-time in Jaws.

[StearnsFTW]

[tmwiese55]

IDK, for all of the Riviera was so dominant in the postseason talk one has to remember he blew game 7 vs the Dbacks and he blew I think game 4 or 5 vs the Red Sox the year Bos came back from 3-0. He basically blew two championships for them. I know with being there every year something is bound to happen, but I just feel like this is never talked about.

 

Also, I've given up fewer postseason runs than people have walked on the moon. Haha. Heck, more seriously tons of MLB relief pitchers have.

[StearnsFTW]

Have they done it in 140 innings?

 

Poo-pooing Rivera's post season accomplishments seems......odd.

 

Yeah, he blew a couple games. He was other-worldly in the post season overall.

[sveumrules]

Mariano Rivera is the greatest post season performer of all time & it's not even close...

 

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/9/26/2449377/mariano-rivera-king-of-postseason-wpa