2019 Brewers' pitching staff

[Brew crew 92]

Stop bashing the FEW that’s calling for outside help, to solve our biggest weakness, and what would keep us from the title. The eyes never lie, when sometimes the stats do.

 

No one is bashing you here. Stop crying wolf. People are debating you. When you go down the path you have on these boards, you better expect to continue to be questioned. You made your bed. No one is going to feel bad for you now.

 

Oh and your eyes never lie? Come on man. These are just ridiculous comments. Tell me what MLB team you must work for then? Silly post, one after another and you just can’t seem to get out of your own way.

 

Instead of trying to refute the lying stats, you take another dig at me, calling my posts silly, and ridiculous. Taking snippets, out of context, to try and make me look bad.

 

I stand by my comments, and don’t talk out of both sides of my mouth like many here do. That kind of bold talk upsets people, so I get that, and I ignore my fair share of snide comments directed at me, but my 50 years of brewer fandom gives me a perspective that some here don’t have, if only because of the totality of what my eyes have seen.

 

So if you like Jacob Barnes in this pen just say it then. And we can just disagree.

[coolhandluke121]

Wanting to get rid of Barnes is not something you can expect to say without being challenged. He is not a high leverage reliever but he is much better than most of the alternative options. There are multiple guys out there who can't be trusted with a 5-run lead, and lumping him in with them is absurd.

 

I agree that they should get more help though. I think it's desperation time. A bullpen like this can completely undermine your season, and they can't afford to take that risk. Knebel isn't coming back this year, and whatever arm syndrome Jeffress has is extremely ominous. Claudio is a LOOGY who can also eat 1-2 innings in blowouts, which is marginally better than a strict LOOGY. Guerra's repertoire seems to play much better out of the pen. Everyone else is trash. Hader, Guerra, Claudio, and Barnes are easily the top 4 guys out there.

[pacopete4]

Stop bashing the FEW that’s calling for outside help, to solve our biggest weakness, and what would keep us from the title. The eyes never lie, when sometimes the stats do.

 

No one is bashing you here. Stop crying wolf. People are debating you. When you go down the path you have on these boards, you better expect to continue to be questioned. You made your bed. No one is going to feel bad for you now.

 

Oh and your eyes never lie? Come on man. These are just ridiculous comments. Tell me what MLB team you must work for then? Silly post, one after another and you just can’t seem to get out of your own way.

 

Instead of trying to refute the lying stats, you take another dig at me, calling my posts silly, and ridiculous. Taking snippets, out of context, to try and make me look bad.

 

I stand by my comments, and don’t talk out of both sides of my mouth like many here do. That kind of bold talk upsets people, so I get that, and I ignore my fair share of snide comments directed at me, but my 50 years of brewer fandom gives me a perspective that some here don’t have, if only because of the totality of what my eyes have seen.

 

So if you like Jacob Barnes in this pen just say it then. And we can just disagree.

 

Until you stop trying to justify your thoughts and agenda with speculation and your own opinion it’ll be rough sledding around here for you. You can surely make your point (in less posts) in a different way by using statistical evidence, actual quotes from the sources your seem to mention, and by not bringing your agenda into every single thread on here. You also talk about this forum very negatively in many posts. Do you really think that’s going to go over well here? Nothing is stopping you from leaving if this place is just too much for you. Being a Brewer fan for a really long time doesn’t grant you immunity for your posts.

 

You’ve had it out for Barnes all season and have made many opinionated remarks about him and the way CC thinks of him. Even though he’s been solid for much of the year. It’s fine that you don’t care for him as a reliever but it’s highly doubtful they’ll move on from a guy that’s actually doing his job pretty well. That’s where the silliness comes into play.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Gonna start deleting posts that dont stay on point guys.

 

Argue and whatever all you want but this constant need to claim youre being attacked when someone disagrees with you is getting tired.

 

Someone disagreeing with you is not an "attack" or a bash.

[Brew crew 92]

Wanting to get rid of Barnes is not something you can expect to say without being challenged. He is not a high leverage reliever but he is much better than most of the alternative options. There are multiple guys out there who can't be trusted with a 5-run lead, and lumping him in with them is absurd.

 

I agree that they should get more help though. I think it's desperation time. A bullpen like this can completely undermine your season, and they can't afford to take that risk. Knebel isn't coming back this year, and whatever arm syndrome Jeffress has is extremely ominous. Claudio is a LOOGY who can also eat 1-2 innings in blowouts, which is marginally better than a strict LOOGY. Guerra's repertoire seems to play much better out of the pen. Everyone else is trash. Hader, Guerra, Claudio, and Barnes are easily the top 4 guys out there.

 

I agree with your assessment.

We don’t have enough quality arms in the pen YET to replace Barnes. I’m hoping/expecting that to happen at the very latest at the trade deadline. Until such time, mop up it is.

[OnTheBlack]

Next month or so is going to be fascinating to see what the brewers do with their pitching staff. Do Burnes Nelson Peralta pitch out of the rotation? 6 man? Rotating young guns at some point to manage innings? How long is it going to take to rid the pen of Petricka Wilson Barnes and possibly Albers?

 

With 8 quality options to start, or to be multi-inning pen arms, and possible high leverage pen arm or two down on the farm, the sooner we rid ourselves of petricka Wilson Barnes the better.

Imo we’ve seen the worst of Burnes and Woodruff already and if not we have plenty of arms to replace. Who’s to say moving forward that Gio or Chacín can’t pitch multi-inning out of pen? Lots of options!!

 

You might want to hold off on dumping Barnes. He's had two bat outings, but put up zero's in his other 10 or so appearances. Given who's still in the pen, I don't think we need to be in a hurry to boot him.

 

Barnes can stick around til after Wilson gone. Barnes is a good pitcher in a mop up role. Barnes is terrible in ANYTHING CLOSE TO HIGH LEVERAGE. His scoreless appearances have been in mop up low lev. Appearances, the 2 times CC has HAD to pitch him in high lev. he failed. This the perfect example of statistics lying.

 

 

Statistics are just proof of what happened. They don't lie. People can twist them to fit their narrative, but they are always true.

 

He's pitched in one high leverage outing this year. He didn't give up anything.

 

Don't just say "facts lie" which is basically what you're saying.

[Brew crew 92]

Not including today’s game, all the runs he’s givin up on the year we’re in high leverage situations, while he’s perfect, zero runs givin up in mop up roles.

[wntrtxn21]

Wanting to get rid of Barnes is not something you can expect to say without being challenged. He is not a high leverage reliever but he is much better than most of the alternative options. There are multiple guys out there who can't be trusted with a 5-run lead, and lumping him in with them is absurd.

 

I agree that they should get more help though. I think it's desperation time. A bullpen like this can completely undermine your season, and they can't afford to take that risk. Knebel isn't coming back this year, and whatever arm syndrome Jeffress has is extremely ominous. Claudio is a LOOGY who can also eat 1-2 innings in blowouts, which is marginally better than a strict LOOGY. Guerra's repertoire seems to play much better out of the pen. Everyone else is trash. Hader, Guerra, Claudio, and Barnes are easily the top 4 guys out there.

 

I agree with your assessment.

We don’t have enough quality arms in the pen YET to replace Barnes. I’m hoping/expecting that to happen at the very latest at the trade deadline. Until such time, mop up it is.

 

It's scarey watching Claudio facing RH. Last night a monster HR and today a tie-breaking single. Bottom of the pen type guy. Stearns has to start looking for pen help immeidately. Jackson at AAA is doing well and certainly can't be any worse than Wilson, Albers, etc.... Maybe try to use Aguilar as a throw-in on a trade for a RP.

[pacopete4]

Not including today’s game, all the runs he’s givin up on the year we’re in high leverage situations, while he’s perfect, zero runs givin up in mop up roles.

 

Do you have statistics to back this up? I think you would find out differently if you actually looked them up.

[adambr2]

When ready, put Jimmy back in the rotation.

 

Dump Wilson, dump Wilkerson, option Barnes. Just stick Woodruff, Burnes and Peralta back in the pen as 2-3 inning guys, be done with it and figure out their futures later.

 

I realize I'm going to get roasted for this.

[TURBO]

Not including today’s game, all the runs he’s givin up on the year we’re in high leverage situations, while he’s perfect, zero runs givin up in mop up roles.

 

[sveumrules]

When ready, put Jimmy back in the rotation.

 

Dump Wilson, dump Wilkerson, option Barnes. Just stick Woodruff, Burnes and Peralta back in the pen as 2-3 inning guys, be done with it and figure out their futures later.

 

I realize I'm going to get roasted for this.

 

If that's what the front office thinks is the best course of action, I've got no problem with it.

 

As much as I would've loved for Peralta, Burnes & Woodruff to each make 25-30 starts & throw 150ish innings this year all while the team stayed competitive in an improved National League, that was always a longshot.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Not including today’s game, all the runs he’s givin up on the year we’re in high leverage situations, while he’s perfect, zero runs givin up in mop up roles.

 

If you're going by the baseball reference "leverage" stat block, then yes. Hader has also been worse (over his career) in what baseball reference deems "high leverage", as has been almost any reliever. If there are men on base, you give up more runs than when men aren't on base. Relievers are also almost always pitching in later innings. Craig Kimbrel has a higher OPS against by almost a hundred points in "high leverage" than he does "medium leverage" situations. I don't think anyone would say that means he's not a great reliever.

 

This is not to say that Jacob Barnes is some amazing find. But continuing to use this "leverage" index against Barnes is just an obscure usage. Barnes "late and close" index is relatively close to his career numbers. 2 out w/RISP he's actually better than his career numbers. There's a lot of numbers here that people can massage to make a case, but if you just continue to take one thing (high leverage) and say "he's not good at this"..... what's the context? 7th inning and later? Game within 2 runs? Who's definition of leverage? There's a lot of statistics out there that say he's been reasonably adequate in these situations over his career.

 

If the Brewers wanna dump Barnes, I'm ok with that, but using the narrow definition of "High Leverage" to say he can't pitch certain innings is false, and there's data to back that up.

[DuWayne Steurer]

When ready, put Jimmy back in the rotation.

 

Dump Wilson, dump Wilkerson, option Barnes. Just stick Woodruff, Burnes and Peralta back in the pen as 2-3 inning guys, be done with it and figure out their futures later.

 

I realize I'm going to get roasted for this.

 

If that's what the front office thinks is the best course of action, I've got no problem with it.

 

As much as I would've loved for Peralta, Burnes & Woodruff to each make 25-30 starts & throw 150ish innings this year all while the team stayed competitive in an improved National League, that was always a longshot.

 

Woodruff made a case last night to stay in the rotation. He needs to work on pitch count and being more efficient, but I don't think he's getting taken out of the rotation yet.

[JosephC]

I'd actually like to see Peralta back at AAA, just because I think he's the one that needs to work on his off-speed stuff the most. I'd obviously like to see him put back in the MLB rotation and succeed even more, we'll see what happens. He just seems like the guy that needs the most "seasoning" to me.

 

When Nelson is healthy, this is the way I think roles should play out considering what has happened so far this year. Even though Burnes performance really hasn't earned him a bullpen spot, I'd like to see him back on the MLB roster based on what he did out of the bullpen last year.

 

Rotation = Chacin, Gonzalez, Davies, Anderson, Nelson

Bullpen = Hader, Jeffress, Woodruff, Guerra, Albers, Claudio, Burnes, Barnes

MiLB possibilities = Peralta, Williams, Houser, Hart, Wilkerson

MiLB not yet ready = Supak, Diplan

And Alex Wilson will have to make a decision whether he wants to pitch for San Antonio or be a free agent.

[Boomer5]

Cincinnati’s team ERA is about two runs less than ours. Draw your own conclusions.

[sveumrules]

When ready, put Jimmy back in the rotation.

 

Dump Wilson, dump Wilkerson, option Barnes. Just stick Woodruff, Burnes and Peralta back in the pen as 2-3 inning guys, be done with it and figure out their futures later.

 

I realize I'm going to get roasted for this.

 

If that's what the front office thinks is the best course of action, I've got no problem with it.

 

As much as I would've loved for Peralta, Burnes & Woodruff to each make 25-30 starts & throw 150ish innings this year all while the team stayed competitive in an improved National League, that was always a longshot.

 

Woodruff made a case last night to stay in the rotation. He needs to work on pitch count and being more efficient, but I don't think he's getting taken out of the rotation yet.

 

Agreed. I personally would keep starting Woodruff for the time being. As the oldest of the three & with the deepest repertoire at this point, I think he probably always had the best chance of lasting the whole season in the rotation.

[sveumrules]

Cincinnati’s team ERA is about two runs less than ours. Draw your own conclusions.

 

The difference in our team ERAs at this point are driven almost entirely by an unsustainably high (1.76, 3rd worst in MLB) HR9 in our case & an unsustainably low (0.79, best in MLB) HR9 for the Reds.

 

Neither team had pitched 250 innings prior to today's game, over a sample that small HR9 is extremely noisy, extreme outliers will almost inevitably regress towards the mean as the season goes on.

 

HR9+ compares a team's HR9 rate to league average. Over the last two seasons the team HR9+ ranges have been between 77-129 & 78-127. At this early juncture they are still between 60 at the bottom (Reds) & 183 at the top (Orioles). Brewers are at 134 currently.

 

That the range is still so much wider than the standard spread demonstrated over previous completed seasons speaks directly to how noisy HR9 still is at this point.

 

If the Reds allow 162 fewer HR than the Brewers & finish the season with a team ERA 2 runs better, I will drink a Budweiser Light.

[NYChez]

How many of the AAA and AA relievers could the Brewers feasibly bring up given the 40-man roster situation?

 

Obviously Taylor Williams could be brought back and Houser could be moved to the bullpen. I assume with the younger guys you don’t want to put them on the 40-man too early, limiting flexibility for moves. For older guys (Jackson, Tonkin, others), it might make sense if, e.g., Wilson continues to struggle.

[Roderick]

 

If the Reds allow 162 fewer HR than the Brewers & finish the season with a team ERA 2 runs better, I will drink a Budweiser Light.

 

Such a risk taker you are.

[sveumrules]

 

If the Reds allow 162 fewer HR than the Brewers & finish the season with a team ERA 2 runs better, I will drink a Budweiser Light.

 

Such a risk taker you are.

 

There are fates worse than death.

[Ennder]

Cincinnati’s team ERA is about two runs less than ours. Draw your own conclusions.

 

 

This has completely flip flopped recently as expected. Talking about ERA in these really small samples is just silly. It takes 500 IP for ERA to mean anything at all and over 1000 innings for it to mean a ton, it is just an awful metric to try to judge a rotation by.

[NYChez]

Hader is now known as 2TO.

[Brew crew 92]

Bullpen is going to get stronger starting Thursday with Peralta’s return to the rotation and the expected addition of a starter to the pen. Then with Burnes expected return next week and another starter to the pen, that will give us 2 quality multi-inning arms, 3 if you include Guerra.

 

No Hart No Barnes.

 

1.) multi-inning pen arm

2.) multi-inning pen arm

3.) Guerra

4.) Albers

5.) Jeffress

6.) Claudio

7.) Jackson

8.) Hader

 

In this pen, Jeffress might be the new mop up man. I think it’s Obvious CC has zero confidence in jj.

[Samurai Bucky]

I have been to two games so far this year -- both of which were started by Chacin. Both of which saw Hader give up a dinger. From now on, if Hader comes in I will make sure to leave the park

 

Wow... does Chacin throw a lot of pitches. I think his split was very close to 50/50 all night for balls vs. strikes. That was the same as his outing against the Dodgers. I noticed that Marquez had only 8 balls through five innings. That's right... 8 BALLS. Guerra had a similar ratio. So, is the low ball to strike ratio for Marquez because he has better stuff or because the Brewers were told to swing early in the count?

 

Does the Brewers starting staff try to pick the corners too often?