2019 Brewers' pitching staff

[The stache]

We've thrown the young guys in there to start against inarguably some of the toughest offenses in baseball, and now after a month of .500 baseball with clearly less than optimal results, we're going to toss those kids back into the pen?

 

I'm confused. Are we trying to compete in 2019, or 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022? Because the Brewers have never developed starting pitching. Ever. Since this team moved to Milwaukee from Seattle, we've had an occasional pitcher develop. Teddy Higuera can't be included in this, as he was 27 years old when he started pitching for us. Mike Caldwell had already started 90 games before coming to Milwaukee. He was 29 when he won 22 for us. Ben Sheets was dominant from 2004-2006. He had the bad luck of being on some terrible teams. Then, the injury issues really started taking a toll. Yovani Gallardo had some good years. A few All Star appearances. But I wouldn't put him on the level of Sheets.

 

Who else am I missing? What other pitchers have wowed us on the Brewers? Sabathia and Greinke were rentals. Some other decent pitchers here and there, but nobody that blows your hair back.

 

If the Brewers are ever going to turn the corner, and be consistent challengers for World Series success, they need to develop their own arms. We can't afford to get into bidding wars with other teams. Young, controllable arms. The bullpen being strong is great, and you can catch lightning in a bottle like last year. But eventually, your starters are going to have to take the reigns.

 

Patience, guys. Don't shove the kids back in the pen. It's a waste of their talent. What they need is more seasoning. Time to figure it out. Time to work on getting through opposing lineups a third time. How many pitchers have started out rough, and then suddenly, one day, it all clicked. Imagine if the Dodgers gave up on Sandy Koufax in the first few years when he was all over the place. Different era, I know. Teams aren't nearly as patient now. But the Brewers need to stick with the plan. I'm perfectly ok with losing some tough series now, and enduring some frustration, if the long term means sustainable, successful starting pitching.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Whether starting or in the pen, please just have Peralta, Woodruff, and Burnes in Milwaukee. It seems foolish to have mediocre short guys taking up major league spots. Especially when we have all of these multi-inning options to cover all these innings that the club is struggling to cover.

[JosephC]

The Cardinals have developed starting pitching over the years, and haven't been afraid to begin guys like Adam Wainwright in the bullpen.

 

I don't think any Brewer fans are really happy with the prospect of having all three guys in the bullpen or in AAA, but Attanasio make pretty big investments in this roster and they are expect to contend. They can't just let those young guys stay in the rotation and get hammered unless they fall out of the playoff race and that possibility is still months off. I have no problem putting them in the bullpen if they are the best options for the bullpen, it's possible that could be the best course of action as they might pitch well, regain confidence at the MLB level and if a starter gets hurt then they could go back in the rotation and get another chance to prove themselves. Is this a worse plan than assuming Burnes will develop by going down to AAA and beating up on inferior competition for awhile? I'm not saying one approach is any more valid than another. Each player probably will handle a bullpen assignment versus a minor league assignment a bit differently. What I would like is for the Brewers to take the 40 man roster, figure out who the best five starters are right now and put those five players into the rotation, and then figure out who the next best eight pitchers are and put those eight pitchers in the bullpen and then work from there. If Corbin Burnes and Freddy Peralta and Brandon Woodruff get removed from the rotation but are in fact, legitimate major league starting pitchers, then I have no doubt that they will work their way back into the rotation soon enough.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Whether starting or in the pen, please just have Peralta, Woodruff, and Burnes in Milwaukee. It seems foolish to have mediocre short guys taking up major league spots. Especially when we have all of these multi-inning options to cover all these innings that the club is struggling to cover.

 

Agree wholeheartedly. The best talent needs to be on the MLB roster. It's up to Counsell and the major league staff to utilize that talent in the most effective manner.

[FVBrewerFan]

Burnes, Peralta, and others aren't going to get better pitching out of the pen where they just pump fastballs to 3 or 4 guys. Problem isn't at the MLB level, it's that the organization is failing miserably at teaching these guys how to throw a change-up, then demanding they throw it enough to have confidence in it. So they get by on velo and fb location, finally make it to Milwaukee and get shelled. Rinse and repeat.

[Brew crew 92]

Next month or so is going to be fascinating to see what the brewers do with their pitching staff. Do Burnes Nelson Peralta pitch out of the rotation? 6 man? Rotating young guns at some point to manage innings? How long is it going to take to rid the pen of Petricka Wilson Barnes and possibly Albers?

 

With 8 quality options to start, or to be multi-inning pen arms, and possible high leverage pen arm or two down on the farm, the sooner we rid ourselves of petricka Wilson Barnes the better.

 

Imo we’ve seen the worst of Burnes and Woodruff already and if not we have plenty of arms to replace. Who’s to say moving forward that Gio or Chacín can’t pitch multi-inning out of pen? Lots of options!!

[adambr2]

We've thrown the young guys in there to start against inarguably some of the toughest offenses in baseball, and now after a month of .500 baseball with clearly less than optimal results, we're going to toss those kids back into the pen?

 

I'm confused. Are we trying to compete in 2019, or 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022? Because the Brewers have never developed starting pitching. Ever. Since this team moved to Milwaukee from Seattle, we've had an occasional pitcher develop. Teddy Higuera can't be included in this, as he was 27 years old when he started pitching for us. Mike Caldwell had already started 90 games before coming to Milwaukee. He was 29 when he won 22 for us. Ben Sheets was dominant from 2004-2006. He had the bad luck of being on some terrible teams. Then, the injury issues really started taking a toll. Yovani Gallardo had some good years. A few All Star appearances. But I wouldn't put him on the level of Sheets.

 

Who else am I missing? What other pitchers have wowed us on the Brewers? Sabathia and Greinke were rentals. Some other decent pitchers here and there, but nobody that blows your hair back.

 

If the Brewers are ever going to turn the corner, and be consistent challengers for World Series success, they need to develop their own arms. We can't afford to get into bidding wars with other teams. Young, controllable arms. The bullpen being strong is great, and you can catch lightning in a bottle like last year. But eventually, your starters are going to have to take the reigns.

 

Patience, guys. Don't shove the kids back in the pen. It's a waste of their talent. What they need is more seasoning. Time to figure it out. Time to work on getting through opposing lineups a third time. How many pitchers have started out rough, and then suddenly, one day, it all clicked. Imagine if the Dodgers gave up on Sandy Koufax in the first few years when he was all over the place. Different era, I know. Teams aren't nearly as patient now. But the Brewers need to stick with the plan. I'm perfectly ok with losing some tough series now, and enduring some frustration, if the long term means sustainable, successful starting pitching.

 

If all of Burnes, Peralta and Woodruff pitched out of the pen this year and we won the World Series and none of the trio ever started again, I'm still taking the World Series. I understand you can't guarantee things either way, I'm just saying.

 

I get what you're saying and I understand where you're coming from. I'm just saying, they were 1 game from the World Series last year which is usually not a developmental time the next year. The spot they're in, if you're ok with losing some series' and enduring some frustration now; well, if the trio of Burnes/Peralta/Woodruff all stays down for seasoning all season while guys like Jake Petricka and Alex Wilson pitch out of the pen here, that is probably going to be enough to cost you a playoff spot.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I think the Brewers need to roll with Anderson and Davies in the rotation for awhile, plus Nelson may be on his way back to milwaukee in the next month - if he is healthy and arm built up, he's in the rotation too. Then you have chacin, plus I think you have to keep woodruff in the rotation. I'd be ok with peralta taking anderson's pen role as the bullpen longman/spot starter. I think burnes needs time in AAA now that they are out of CO Springs to get extended work as a starter - that is still where he needs to be. Includine Gio into the mix could easily lead to a scenaRio where 1-2 rotation spots get piggybacked, too

[JosephC]

Woodruff needs a quality outing tonight. Time for him to prove he should stay in the rotation when the Brewers have the option of having Chacin, Gonzalez, Davies, Anderson and Nelson as the starting five.

[82brewcrew82]

We've thrown the young guys in there to start against inarguably some of the toughest offenses in baseball, and now after a month of .500 baseball with clearly less than optimal results, we're going to toss those kids back into the pen?

 

I'm confused. Are we trying to compete in 2019, or 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022? Because the Brewers have never developed starting pitching. Ever. Since this team moved to Milwaukee from Seattle, we've had an occasional pitcher develop. Teddy Higuera can't be included in this, as he was 27 years old when he started pitching for us. Mike Caldwell had already started 90 games before coming to Milwaukee. He was 29 when he won 22 for us. Ben Sheets was dominant from 2004-2006. He had the bad luck of being on some terrible teams. Then, the injury issues really started taking a toll. Yovani Gallardo had some good years. A few All Star appearances. But I wouldn't put him on the level of Sheets.

 

Who else am I missing? What other pitchers have wowed us on the Brewers? Sabathia and Greinke were rentals. Some other decent pitchers here and there, but nobody that blows your hair back.

 

If the Brewers are ever going to turn the corner, and be consistent challengers for World Series success, they need to develop their own arms. We can't afford to get into bidding wars with other teams. Young, controllable arms. The bullpen being strong is great, and you can catch lightning in a bottle like last year. But eventually, your starters are going to have to take the reigns.

 

Patience, guys. Don't shove the kids back in the pen. It's a waste of their talent. What they need is more seasoning. Time to figure it out. Time to work on getting through opposing lineups a third time. How many pitchers have started out rough, and then suddenly, one day, it all clicked. Imagine if the Dodgers gave up on Sandy Koufax in the first few years when he was all over the place. Different era, I know. Teams aren't nearly as patient now. But the Brewers need to stick with the plan. I'm perfectly ok with losing some tough series now, and enduring some frustration, if the long term means sustainable, successful starting pitching.

 

If all of Burnes, Peralta and Woodruff pitched out of the pen this year and we won the World Series and none of the trio ever started again, I'm still taking the World Series. I understand you can't guarantee things either way, I'm just saying.

 

I get what you're saying and I understand where you're coming from. I'm just saying, they were 1 game from the World Series last year which is usually not a developmental time the next year. The spot they're in, if you're ok with losing some series' and enduring some frustration now; well, if the trio of Burnes/Peralta/Woodruff all stays down for seasoning all season while guys like Jake Petricka and Alex Wilson pitch out of the pen here, that is probably going to be enough to cost you a playoff spot.

I get it and I would be happy to get to the series and let things play out but I would have zero sympathy for the "we haven't developed any pitching" arguments that will pop up. If you roll with Nelson, Anderson, Davies, Chacin and Gonzalez and then have all of Burnes, Woodruff and Peralta in the pen you hurt your depth but that is probably a staff capable of making a run. A little bit lite on starting depth but if you are going to play for the short term then there you have it.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Once again the problem with your scenario is everything has to go perfect in the games so a 4th or even 5th pitcher isn't used. If a guy gets lit up early and more than 3 pitchers are used it turns your system on it's ear. It comes down to would you rather have Hader or Knebel facing the top of somebody's order in the 9th, or Petricka who has already pitched 2 innings?

 

I don't think that's a flaw with the proposal at all. Starters would be able to routinely pitch on 3 days of rest, and sometimes even 2 if they only pitch 2-3 innings in their previous start, so you would have more long relief options. The rigid rotations/starters paradigm has plenty of its own drawbacks. Sometimes a starter only lasts ~1 inning, and then the paradigm falls apart.

 

There are "what ifs" to any paradigm, and situations where it won't be optimal, but in the long haul there's plenty of evidence that starters are pitching too many innings and too many times through the order. Relief pitchers often have lower e.r.a.'s, even though they're failed starters, because of the way they're deployed. Pitcher at-bats could also be minimized more effectively with more long relief, and LHP/RHP match-ups could be exploited.

 

The biggest question to me is how many innings could you get out of starters and former starters turned long relievers if they appeared in more games but for shorter outings and what would the effect be on their health. I know you can't just take a starter who throws 160 innings and tell him to pitch 160 games, 1 inning at a time, but where is the sweet spot? There seems to be plenty of evidence that starters can pitch on less rest after short outings. How important is the routine?

 

I think the current paradigm is best for most teams just because you clearly want your best pitchers to start and throw a lot of innings, even if they go 3 times through the order and bat 3 times. Rebuilding teams just want their young guys to get experience and be groomed for that. But the Brewers are an interesting case. Who are the starting candidates that are so much better that they have to start 30+ games and pitch 150+ innings? In any given month, Chacin, Davies, Anderson, Woodruff, Peralta, Burnes, Nelson, or Guerra could easily be your best starter. As long as nobody is head and shoulders above the rest, why not use them in a way that reduces times through the order and pitcher at-bats?

[coolhandluke121]

As for bullpen debates, this team was one win away from its first World Series berth since 1982 last year. A long window of contention is never guaranteed. They shouldn't worry about hurting anyone's feelings or failing to develop youth according to the same timeline a rebuilding team would use if it clearly makes them more likely to win this year. It's not like anyone is wanting to trade them away in a short-sighted, impulsive trade. It's just a temporary bump in their development if Woodruff and/or Burnes goes back to the pen.

[adambr2]

Here's a hypothetical:

 

Many people wanted to just put Josh Hader in the rotation last year and let him develop as a starter. If we had done that and just lived with the growing pains of it whether it be in Milwaukee or AAA, would we have been within 1 game of the World Series last year?

 

We can never know 100%, but my assumption is that no, we would not have been. We would not have been division champions, we would not have been in the NLCS, we would not have even made the playoffs without the things Josh Hader did for us in the bullpen last year.

[82brewcrew82]

Here's a hypothetical:

 

Many people wanted to just put Josh Hader in the rotation last year and let him develop as a starter. If we had done that and just lived with the growing pains of it whether it be in Milwaukee or AAA, would we have been within 1 game of the World Series last year?

 

We can never know 100%, but my assumption is that no, we would not have been. We would not have been division champions, we would not have been in the NLCS, we would not have even made the playoffs without the things Josh Hader did for us in the bullpen last year.

The difference is that I don't think Hader was ever truly considered a starter by the organization. His transition the pen was long rumored, thus I don't think he had the same expectations.

[82brewcrew82]

As for bullpen debates, this team was one win away from its first World Series berth since 1982 last year. A long window of contention is never guaranteed. They shouldn't worry about hurting anyone's feelings or failing to develop youth according to the same timeline a rebuilding team would use if it clearly makes them more likely to win this year. It's not like anyone is wanting to trade them away in a short-sighted, impulsive trade. It's just a temporary bump in their development if Woodruff and/or Burnes goes back to the pen.

You're making a circular argument. They can put all of them in the pen but that doesn't give them any more of a guarantee of anything either. Let's say they do that and lose in the first round, then what? Let's keep them in the pen again in 2020? I agree it gives them a better chance but the team has flaws beyond that and it doesn't put them over the top and leaves them woefully thin in starting pitchers. It's the short term play and I'd rather take the path that potentially gives me multiple post season shots then make the shortsighted move for one chance that may or may not work out.

[djoctagone]

the brewers spent four days (three games) with a 12-man pitching staff. back to 13.

[coolhandluke121]

the brewers spent four days (three games) with a 12-man pitching staff. back to 13.

 

I always thought it was pretty clear they would typically carry 13 pitchers. I remember somebody acted like I was crazy for suggesting it, but there were just too many wild cards on the staff. Besides, they have so much quality in the lineup that they don't really need great depth there.

[OnTheBlack]

Next month or so is going to be fascinating to see what the brewers do with their pitching staff. Do Burnes Nelson Peralta pitch out of the rotation? 6 man? Rotating young guns at some point to manage innings? How long is it going to take to rid the pen of Petricka Wilson Barnes and possibly Albers?

 

With 8 quality options to start, or to be multi-inning pen arms, and possible high leverage pen arm or two down on the farm, the sooner we rid ourselves of petricka Wilson Barnes the better.

Imo we’ve seen the worst of Burnes and Woodruff already and if not we have plenty of arms to replace. Who’s to say moving forward that Gio or Chacín can’t pitch multi-inning out of pen? Lots of options!!

 

You might want to hold off on dumping Barnes. He's had two bat outings, but put up zero's in his other 10 or so appearances. Given who's still in the pen, I don't think we need to be in a hurry to boot him.

[OnTheBlack]

Here's a hypothetical:

 

Many people wanted to just put Josh Hader in the rotation last year and let him develop as a starter. If we had done that and just lived with the growing pains of it whether it be in Milwaukee or AAA, would we have been within 1 game of the World Series last year?

 

We can never know 100%, but my assumption is that no, we would not have been. We would not have been division champions, we would not have been in the NLCS, we would not have even made the playoffs without the things Josh Hader did for us in the bullpen last year.

 

 

Or maybe he pitches like Chris Sale and we would have had a dominant ace. I don't know. I do know you don't want all of your best young arms to become relievers.

[willjski23]

I love it!

As of now i like seeing what we're working with.. with saying that we have lots of room for improvement. Chase has been solid has last 2 starts, woodruff looks solid tonight against the Mets. I can't wait for Jimmy to return!

[wntrtxn21]

Next month or so is going to be fascinating to see what the brewers do with their pitching staff. Do Burnes Nelson Peralta pitch out of the rotation? 6 man? Rotating young guns at some point to manage innings? How long is it going to take to rid the pen of Petricka Wilson Barnes and possibly Albers?

 

With 8 quality options to start, or to be multi-inning pen arms, and possible high leverage pen arm or two down on the farm, the sooner we rid ourselves of petricka Wilson Barnes the better.

Imo we’ve seen the worst of Burnes and Woodruff already and if not we have plenty of arms to replace. Who’s to say moving forward that Gio or Chacín can’t pitch multi-inning out of pen? Lots of options!!

 

You might want to hold off on dumping Barnes. He's had two bat outings, but put up zero's in his other 10 or so appearances. Given who's still in the pen, I don't think we need to be in a hurry to boot him.

 

Barnes has been in 11 games and given up runs in two of those games (3 runs in 1 IP and 5 runs in 1/3 IP). In the other 9 appearances he has given up 5 total hits in 9 2/3 IPs and no runs, with 12 Ks and 3 BBs. Wilson has been awful and I wonder why he is still on the team. Albers has pitched 11 innings allowing 11 hits and 6 runs including 3 HRs. Jeffress is just a shadow of his old self, Claudio is a LOOGY only, Wilkerson has pitched 5.2 innings allowing 11 hits and a 2.12 WHIP. Petricka finally DFA'd, Williams in the minors because of performance, and Hart is a terrible LOOGY. Guerra continues to shine out of the pen, and Hader. Right now Barnes is one of CC's best options out of a severely under performing pen.

[Brew crew 92]

Next month or so is going to be fascinating to see what the brewers do with their pitching staff. Do Burnes Nelson Peralta pitch out of the rotation? 6 man? Rotating young guns at some point to manage innings? How long is it going to take to rid the pen of Petricka Wilson Barnes and possibly Albers?

 

With 8 quality options to start, or to be multi-inning pen arms, and possible high leverage pen arm or two down on the farm, the sooner we rid ourselves of petricka Wilson Barnes the better.

Imo we’ve seen the worst of Burnes and Woodruff already and if not we have plenty of arms to replace. Who’s to say moving forward that Gio or Chacín can’t pitch multi-inning out of pen? Lots of options!!

 

You might want to hold off on dumping Barnes. He's had two bat outings, but put up zero's in his other 10 or so appearances. Given who's still in the pen, I don't think we need to be in a hurry to boot him.

 

Barnes can stick around til after Wilson gone. Barnes is a good pitcher in a mop up role. Barnes is terrible in ANYTHING CLOSE TO HIGH LEVERAGE. His scoreless appearances have been in mop up low lev. Appearances, the 2 times CC has HAD to pitch him in high lev. he failed. This the perfect example of statistics lying.

[Brew crew 92]

Next month or so is going to be fascinating to see what the brewers do with their pitching staff. Do Burnes Nelson Peralta pitch out of the rotation? 6 man? Rotating young guns at some point to manage innings? How long is it going to take to rid the pen of Petricka Wilson Barnes and possibly Albers?

 

With 8 quality options to start, or to be multi-inning pen arms, and possible high leverage pen arm or two down on the farm, the sooner we rid ourselves of petricka Wilson Barnes the better.

Imo we’ve seen the worst of Burnes and Woodruff already and if not we have plenty of arms to replace. Who’s to say moving forward that Gio or Chacín can’t pitch multi-inning out of pen? Lots of options!!

 

You might want to hold off on dumping Barnes. He's had two bat outings, but put up zero's in his other 10 or so appearances. Given who's still in the pen, I don't think we need to be in a hurry to boot him.

 

Barnes has been in 11 games and given up runs in two of those games (3 runs in 1 IP and 5 runs in 1/3 IP). In the other 9 appearances he has given up 5 total hits in 9 2/3 IPs and no runs, with 12 Ks and 3 BBs. Wilson has been awful and I wonder why he is still on the team. Albers has pitched 11 innings allowing 11 hits and 6 runs including 3 HRs. Jeffress is just a shadow of his old self, Claudio is a LOOGY only, Wilkerson has pitched 5.2 innings allowing 11 hits and a 2.12 WHIP. Petricka finally DFA'd, Williams in the minors because of performance, and Hart is a terrible LOOGY. Guerra continues to shine out of the pen, and Hader. Right now Barnes is one of CC's best options out of a severely under performing pen.

 

Statistics CAN lie. This is that time. Barnes has the stuff of high leverage, and commands it well in mop up roles. BUT add a little stress and he goes ga ga. Command leaves him, and he gets wild or grooves his pitches and he gets hit hard. The rest of your analysis is correct.

 

We have a couple guys down under that can help, but they need to be added to the 40 man, which I think at least one of them is imminent. But it’s not going to fix jeffress. Until we get a LEAST 1 more high leverage arm into the pen, we’re going to struggle to close out games when Hader is down. Stop bashing the FEW that’s calling for outside help, to solve our biggest weakness, and what would keep us from the title. The eyes never lie, when sometimes the stats do.

[pacopete4]

Stop bashing the FEW that’s calling for outside help, to solve our biggest weakness, and what would keep us from the title. The eyes never lie, when sometimes the stats do.

 

No one is bashing you here. Stop crying wolf. People are debating you. When you go down the path you have on these boards, you better expect to continue to be questioned. You made your bed. No one is going to feel bad for you now.

 

Oh and your eyes never lie? Come on man. These are just ridiculous comments. Tell me what MLB team you must work for then? Silly post, one after another and you just can’t seem to get out of your own way.

[brewcrewdue80]

On the subject of Wilson:

He now has 9BBs in 11.1 IP. Something is wrong with Grandal or the Pitching coach. Why? The last 2 seasons combined he walked a total of 30 in 121.1IP How can he be on pace currently to walk double that this season?

 

Claudio has a Career 2.0BBs/9 only 15 in 2018 in 82.2IP and in 2017 with 13 in 68.1IP the last 2 seasons. At a career high 4.1bb/9 currently.

 

Chacin last averaged 4 in 2014. He's at 4.8/9 currently.

 

There's just something off in the pitchers ability to throw strikes. Is it Grandal's set up before a pitch? His framing skills? Is it the pitching coach's sequencing on what to throw 1st pitch? In which it ends up starting these guys down 1-0? Team ERA is up 1.45 from last season. Cincy is down 1.36ERA as a team last season. We're over 1/6th of the season in, a week from it being 1/5th in. Some kind of connecting the dots needs to transpire what is the root of this? Not to just sit here and say career 3.2ERA at Texas, and a career 3.23ERA prior to coming to Milw this season Suck. It isn't like those two lack experience with 500+IP between the two.