2019 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot

[reillymcshane]

Just start a new hall of fame based more on analytics. It's freakin' hilarious how many people most fans have never heard of are in (umpires, union reps, Marge Schott's stupid dog probably), not to mention all the obvious issues that have already been mentioned here. Seriously, I have no intention of ever visiting the analytics hall of fame, but I might check out something that actually does a credible job of breaking down player value.

 

It would be another nail in the coffin if a closer of all people is the first unanimous entry ever.

Vote for me!

[stalton]

Schottzie Schott. What a name

[JimH5]

Marge Schott, what a compelling person. I think there's a movie waiting to be made. Wife of a car dealer, is widowed at 39 and then is left managing the family business. Buys into the hometown baseball team, they win a World Series under her ownership, and then the racism & suspension.

 

She was pretty horrible, but also very generous.

 

Doubtful that film would be part of the MLB Network offseason rotation.

[logan82]

 

Most of the controversial selections have been made by special committees, outside of the BBWAA. Have the writers elected or denied someone you think was treated wrongly?

 

Yes, the fact that Barry Bonds is not in the "Hall of Fame" is an absolute joke. If Bonds is not in the hall then nobody else belongs in the hall except maybe Ruth or Williams or a handful of others.

 

His statistical achievements were accomplished with the aid of illegal drugs. That causes some writers to withhold their vote for him, per their interpretation of the election rules. Isn't that a reasonable explanation for why he hasn't been elected?

At this point, believing that any player is completely clean is naive at best. The players are better at cheating than the tests are at finding the cheaters and they always will be. Getting caught is a fluke and keeping a guy out because you think he was cheating is lame. Vote in guys who hit well and be done. The HOF is just a boys club and needs to be put down along with most of the old guard in the BBWAA.

[JimH5]

I think that's a cynical response.

 

You're right that we shouldn't believe that everyone is clean. But we know for sure that Bonds wasn't. There is evidence.

 

Should writers ignore that and give a player the highest honor in the sport anyway? Voting rules specify integrity, sportsmanship and character as part of the package.

 

That's why I would vote no on him. If he gets in through a veterans committee later on, then so be it. But that's not up to the writers.

[DuWayne Steurer]

It's interesting that we keep alleged steroid users out of the Hall of Fame, but Kirby Puckett is in the Hall of Fame and he is an alleged multiple-time sexual harasser. He paid off one female twins employee that he allegedly sexually harassed, supposedly threatens to kill his wife, and had affairs with several women. If we're going to invoke the Integrity rule , why doesn't it apply to this guy? Is it because none of the stuff happened on the field?

[topper09er]

It's interesting that we keep alleged steroid users out of the Hall of Fame, but Kirby Puckett is in the Hall of Fame and he is an alleged multiple-time sexual harasser. He paid off one female twins employee that he allegedly sexually harassed, supposedly threatens to kill his wife, and had affairs with several women. If we're going to invoke the Integrity rule , why doesn't it apply to this guy? Is it because none of the stuff happened on the field?

 

Yup, my theory is that the writers don't like that the "modern players" have been eclipsing the power totals of their childhood heroes and are holding a grudge. Sammy Sosa hitting more HRs than Frank Robinson? We can't have that.

[sveumrules]

There are so many inductees in clear violation of the integrity, sportsmanship & character clauses that it seems silly to me to start enforcing it now.

 

What did more damage to the game? Bonds doing steroids or guys like Cap Anson & Kenesaw Mountain Landis doing everything in their power to deny 100s of deserving players an opportunity to play because of the pigmentation of their skin?

[JimH5]

It's interesting that we keep alleged steroid users out of the Hall of Fame, but Kirby Puckett is in the Hall of Fame and he is an alleged multiple-time sexual harasser. He paid off one female twins employee that he allegedly sexually harassed, supposedly threatens to kill his wife, and had affairs with several women. If we're going to invoke the Integrity rule , why doesn't it apply to this guy? Is it because none of the stuff happened on the field?

 

That's a good point, though I think the info about Puckett came out after he was inducted. I don't think voters had that evidence when he was elected. And the HOF doesn't have a (known) procedure for revoking guys.

 

They are different organizations, but OJ Simpson is still in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And he and Joe Paterno are still in the College Football Hall of Fame. I think with these places, once you're in, you're in.

[KeithStone53151]

It's interesting that we keep alleged steroid users out of the Hall of Fame, but Kirby Puckett is in the Hall of Fame and he is an alleged multiple-time sexual harasser. He paid off one female twins employee that he allegedly sexually harassed, supposedly threatens to kill his wife, and had affairs with several women. If we're going to invoke the Integrity rule , why doesn't it apply to this guy? Is it because none of the stuff happened on the field?

 

I don't think it's up for debate that the antics of Kirby Puckett and others mentioned are worse, but the cheating calls into question their achievements on the field. I personally think those issues are not the same and should not be lumped together. Being Kirby Puckett or Ray Rice or Pete Rose doesn't impact your abilities to play the game. Steroids/HGH do. They should also be approached logically and not emotionally. An argument such as "You won't let Bonds in the Hall of Fame, but you let in Kirby Puckett the wife beater?", simply is not a logical argument...it's an emotional argument at best.

[Oxy]

The "Today's Game" (ballot consisting of players from 1988 to today) special committee is just a horrible idea. Anybody from the "Today's game" era who is remotely qualified for the HOF is still on the actual BBWAA election ballot, or was just recently pushed off that ballot.

 

Pretty much every player on the "Modern Baseball (1970-1988)" ballot from 2018 was a more worthy selection than any player on the "Today's Game" ballot from this year. There will be another horrible ballot and likely selection in 2 years and another one two year after that.

 

This year's "Today's Game" ballot:

 

Lee Smith

Harold Baines

Lou Piniella

Albert Belle

Joe Carter

Will Clark

Orel Hershiser

Davey Johnson

Charlie Manuel

George Steinbrenner

 

Last year's "Modern baseball" ballot:

 

Jack Morris

Alan Trammell

Steve Garvey

Tommy John

Don Mattingly

Dale Murphy

Dave Parker

Luis Tiant

Ted Simmons

Marvin Miller

[JackNicholson1974]

My ballot

 

1. Bonds (hate him, he deserves it though)

2. Clemens (ditto)

3. Mariano

4. Halladay

5. McGriff

6. Edgar

7. Manny Ramirez (like Bonds, if his career ended in 2008 before PED suspensions he is still a HOF)

8. Wagner

9. Mussina

10. Schilling

[owbc]

The high barrier for entry is part of the appeal of the HOF. It also plays to the other unique aspects of baseball such as the obsession with statistics and the mythical immortalization of legends. I also like that the voters are given minimal criteria--it allows the voting to evolve with the game. There isn't any right or wrong interpretation and it allows people to 'make their case' for a particular player. This year Edgar will join the group of guys who benefited from the statistical revolution. The rigid numbers 'milestone' rule has mostly gone away, except for 3,000 hits.

 

I'm in the group that was originally a hard no to Bonds/Clemens but now support their candidacy. I've come to like Barry Bonds as a person, it's unfortunate that he didn't mesh well with the media during his playing career. They were both just so good that I don't know how you could have a HOF without them. I have trouble using the steroid criteria because there was no testing and we have no idea if guys like Thome and Thomas were using them also, we can only make educated guesses.

[coolhandluke121]

 

I'm in the group that was originally a hard no to Bonds/Clemens but now support their candidacy. I've come to like Barry Bonds as a person, it's unfortunate that he didn't mesh well with the media during his playing career. They were both just so good that I don't know how you could have a HOF without them. I have trouble using the steroid criteria because there was no testing and we have no idea if guys like Thome and Thomas were using them also, we can only make educated guesses.

 

Bumping this. Fascinating vote this year. So many borderline cases, plus the Bonds/Clemens issue.

 

Bonds had trouble with the media from his playoff collapses in Pittsburgh. The media in general were brutal to him, but he was terrible in the playoffs before leaving Pittsburgh. I think that's where it started. He was one of the greatest players ever before his ridiculous home run numbers, but he got overshadowed by Sosa and McGwire despite being far better than them when they were hitting 60+. So while I can't excuse what he did and would prefer for him to be left out, I can't help but place some blame on all the slobberers who helped make the home run chase the spectacle that it was.

[Outlander]

This will be announced tonight. Still looks like Rivera, Halladay, Martinez and maybe Mussina depending on if the anonymous writers vote for him this time around.

[coolhandluke121]

This will be announced tonight. Still looks like Rivera, Halladay, Martinez and maybe Mussina depending on if the anonymous writers vote for him this time around.

 

I'm okay with that group. Someone pointed out that Halladay and Martinez peaking in their 30's during the PED era was a little suspicious, but I guess there's no confirmed rumors of them juicing. Mussina is deserving if Jack Morris is. He was obviously clean and might have had much better numbers if so many hitters weren't juicing. That's the kind of thing you have to take into account.

[tmwiese55]

Take Mussina out of the AL East his whole career and put him in the NL and his numbers probably look way different too.

[clancyphile]

They let Gaylord Perry in... and Perry flaunted his use of the spitter.

 

So... really the integrity is a joke. Let Rose, Bonds, and Clemens in.

[dlk9s]

I'm cool with Gaylord Perry because he was so in your face with the spitter/cheating that it was entertaining.

[JimH5]

I'm cool with Gaylord Perry because he was so in your face with the spitter/cheating that it was entertaining.

 

I know it's splitting hairs, but Perry's sleight of hand was done in front of everyone, including the 4 umpires who are charged with monitoring the pitcher. I think that's different than behind-the-scenes cheating, like playing with a corked bat, or using drugs illegally. Perry's antics could be considered gamesmanship, like sign stealing, though I recognize I'm being generous to him.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I'm cool with Gaylord Perry because he was so in your face with the spitter/cheating that it was entertaining.

 

70 HR's wasn't entertaining?

[dlk9s]

I'm cool with Gaylord Perry because he was so in your face with the spitter/cheating that it was entertaining.

 

70 HR's wasn't entertaining?

 

Not in a funny way like Perry was. Plus:

 

a) Perry basically looked like an old man his entire career

b) he wore the GOAT old-timers game jersey

[Oxy]

I'm cool with Gaylord Perry because he was so in your face with the spitter/cheating that it was entertaining.

 

I know it's splitting hairs, but Perry's sleight of hand was done in front of everyone, including the 4 umpires who are charged with monitoring the pitcher. I think that's different than behind-the-scenes cheating, like playing with a corked bat, or using drugs illegally. Perry's antics could be considered gamesmanship, like sign stealing, though I recognize I'm being generous to him.

 

 

The same could be said for all the juicers prior to the Mitchell report coming out. McGwire certainly wasn't trying too hard to hide his use of androstenedione. If you are a professional athlete and you've got trainers and doctors and nutritionists all telling you to take this stuff because it's going to improve your body and your baseball skills, I'm sure it's awfully easy to just trust the smart guys--don't ask too many questions and go hit a lot of home runs (not to mention make millions upon tens of millions of dollars for doing so). It's hard for me to get too worked up over excoriating guys who did a lot of high tech stuff that wasn't explicitly against the rules at the time. Obviously, after 2007 it is a whole different ballgame.

 

For a modern educated person, it is easy to draw the line between protein shakes, multi-vitamins and anything that might mess with your hormones/endocrine system, but it wasn't that easy 20-30 years ago. There are still all sorts of gray areas that make it a very complicated ethical issue.

[Austin Tatious]

Marge Schott, what a compelling person. I think there's a movie waiting to be made. Wife of a car dealer, is widowed at 39 and then is left managing the family business. Buys into the hometown baseball team, they win a World Series under her ownership, and then the racism & suspension.

 

She was pretty horrible, but also very generous.

 

Doubtful that film would be part of the MLB Network offseason rotation.

 

Roseanne Barr would be perfect for playing her.

[Oxy]

Also, when it comes to the reason that the "Hall of Fame" exists--Pretty much everybody who calls themselves a baseball fan knows how great Joe Jackson was. That same sample of people are less familiar with Ray Schalk...or Sam Crawford or Harry Heilman. It's not like Pete Rose, Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds will ever be forgotten for as long as anybody in the HOF is remembered, anyway.