Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE

[TURBO]

Is Broxton on this team?

 

Keon is out of options so he is either with the Brewers or with another organization...

 

Keon will make the 25 man out of ST. Gamel will not.

 

Gamel will make the 25 man out of ST. Keon will not.

 

See how this game works?

 

[rickh150]

Broxton and Santana for Gamel, then?

[DHonks]

NONE of the players you mentioned (Choi-Thames-Davis-Broxton-or Santana) is a better player or better for the Brewers than Braun. Choi and Thames are 1B only types who whiff far more than average. Both are terrible OFs and basically a waste of a spot. Broxton is a great defender who also Ks 40% of his ABs and near worthless in critical situations. Santana was a below average OF who had some power, but couldn't get on base until late in the year. Davis was the worst OF in MLB history and strictly a DH. No value to the Brewers except as a once-a-game PH. I do agree Braun eats up a lot of money and the Brewers would love to dump his contract, but none of the others would even be considered as a replacement if they actually could trade Braun.

 

 

While Thames may not have passed the eye test he actually rated far better than terrible in as an outfielder in defensive metrics. He certainly is not a waste of a spot. Saying things like terrible, no value, a waste of a spot and the worst in MLB history is hardly ever accurate. Saying Yuni B was the worst first base option ever being the one possible exception.

 

 

He also is relatively quick on the bases. He looks stiff in the field though

[owbc]

Both are 4th/platoon outfielders with some upside. So it basically comes down to which is more likely: Domingo Santana learns plate discipline or Ben Gamel learns how to hit for power?

 

The 2018 Brewers has plenty of power and a serious lack of plate discipline. When you throw in Gamel’s option the trade was a no-brainer.

 

Broxton is a quintessential 4-A player who is nice to have around for his glove but has no business facing MLB pitching and has already used up his opportunities to figure it out, at least in a Brewers uniform. I wish him the best wherever he ends up.

[SomewhereInTime]

NONE of the players you mentioned (Choi-Thames-Davis-Broxton-or Santana) is a better player or better for the Brewers than Braun. Choi and Thames are 1B only types who whiff far more than average. Both are terrible OFs and basically a waste of a spot. Broxton is a great defender who also Ks 40% of his ABs and near worthless in critical situations. Santana was a below average OF who had some power, but couldn't get on base until late in the year. Davis was the worst OF in MLB history and strictly a DH. No value to the Brewers except as a once-a-game PH. I do agree Braun eats up a lot of money and the Brewers would love to dump his contract, but none of the others would even be considered as a replacement if they actually could trade Braun.

 

 

While Thames may not have passed the eye test he actually rated far better than terrible in as an outfielder in defensive metrics. He certainly is not a waste of a spot. Saying things like terrible, no value, a waste of a spot and the worst in MLB history is hardly ever accurate. Saying Yuni B was the worst first base option ever being the one possible exception.

 

Defensive metrics mean nothing for an outfielder on that small of a sample size.

[Thurston Fluff]

NONE of the players you mentioned (Choi-Thames-Davis-Broxton-or Santana) is a better player or better for the Brewers than Braun. Choi and Thames are 1B only types who whiff far more than average. Both are terrible OFs and basically a waste of a spot. Broxton is a great defender who also Ks 40% of his ABs and near worthless in critical situations. Santana was a below average OF who had some power, but couldn't get on base until late in the year. Davis was the worst OF in MLB history and strictly a DH. No value to the Brewers except as a once-a-game PH. I do agree Braun eats up a lot of money and the Brewers would love to dump his contract, but none of the others would even be considered as a replacement if they actually could trade Braun.

 

 

While Thames may not have passed the eye test he actually rated far better than terrible in as an outfielder in defensive metrics. He certainly is not a waste of a spot. Saying things like terrible, no value, a waste of a spot and the worst in MLB history is hardly ever accurate. Saying Yuni B was the worst first base option ever being the one possible exception.

 

Defensive metrics mean nothing for an outfielder on that small of a sample size.

 

Fair point but nothing does in such small samples. That includes the eye test. I think the eye test is overly influenced by the assumption he wan't going to be good because he is a first baseman by trade.

[clancyphile]

Both are 4th/platoon outfielders with some upside. So it basically comes down to which is more likely: Domingo Santana learns plate discipline or Ben Gamel learns how to hit for power?

 

The 2018 Brewers has plenty of power and a serious lack of plate discipline. When you throw in Gamel’s option the trade was a no-brainer.

 

Broxton is a quintessential 4-A player who is nice to have around for his glove but has no business facing MLB pitching and has already used up his opportunities to figure it out, at least in a Brewers uniform. I wish him the best wherever he ends up.

 

Broxton was still 1.6 WAR with a sub-Uecker line - because of his defense. I generally default to trading defense for offense (I still think Ryan Braun should play third at least against tough lefties), but Broxton is one of those I would make an exception for.

 

Gamel is better than Thames because his skill set is best where the Brewers have been weakest. He is also marginally able to play center field, which Thames can't. Now, the Brewers could decide to go with Aguilar at third, Shaw at second, and Thames at first, but the defense might be... adventurous.

 

The Brewers will need to deal Thames at this point, hopefully for a Jason Rogers or Adam Lind type of return.

[Jenkins5]

Both are 4th/platoon outfielders with some upside. So it basically comes down to which is more likely: Domingo Santana learns plate discipline or Ben Gamel learns how to hit for power?

 

The 2018 Brewers has plenty of power and a serious lack of plate discipline. When you throw in Gamel’s option the trade was a no-brainer.

 

Broxton is a quintessential 4-A player who is nice to have around for his glove but has no business facing MLB pitching and has already used up his opportunities to figure it out, at least in a Brewers uniform. I wish him the best wherever he ends up.

 

Santana has good plate discipline. Really his outside zone swing & zone swing % is pretty close to that of Yelich & Broxton. All 3 live above 10% Bb% which where you love to have all your hitters. Issue with Santana & Broxton is they simple can’t make contact with the balls in & out of the zone. Yelich hits around 68 % of ball out of zone & over 80% in the zone. Santana & Broxton hit 45% ish of balls out & only 65%ish of balls in zone. Santana will always look at pitches & be able to walk. The real thing is eventually he has to be able to make contact. Otherwise he will always K 30% of the time.

 

I’m a guy who loves guys who loves walk & make contact. Any time you put ball in play you have a chance to get hit, knock run in, or move guys over. Strike outs kill everything. Power is great as long as it doesn’t counter with awful contact%. Gamel doesn’t hurt you there. For career he is at 28% outside zone, 60% zone and only swings at 43% of pitches. he makes contact on 65% of those outside zone pitches & 90% of his zone pitches. He walks 10% & is around 20% exactally where you want a hitter. However Sogard was another high contact guy with similar swing stats. My issue with Gamel as with Sogard is they simply don’t hit ball very hard. He is a 25% hard ball hitter. He’s improved a lot on his soft contact but really he doesn’t drive ball much. That is what will keep him from being more than a 4th OF or anything more than average starter.

 

If you don’t mind Ks, lack of contact, limited versatility & bad defense but prefer the hard contact with power potential at only corner OF. You like Santana. His star is brighter due to power, hard contact, obp, and good overall average

 

If you like obp, limited ks, versatility, good average, more athletic guys who may not drive balls as hard or have much pop.... you like Gamel. To me he is a great fit as 4th OF but not a guy who should be starting 120+ games. He is a lefty bench bat who gives you a solid options with your line up. After watching us kill opportunities in Dodger series over & over by K after K... I like a high contact option.

 

Aoki I think was a pretty good comp for him at the plate

[Jenkins5]

Braun should never in his life play 3rd again. Even without him saying repeatly that he’s open to try just about anywhere beside 3rd. This is the major leagues. You can’t just throw guys at 1st, 3rd and so on just because.... corner OF is really the only place you can throw a guy just to play with line up. It is far easier to learn to shag a ball & throw it in (must start deep because going back on balls is a skill that takes much more work) than learning to field ball, get all your footwork right, make on target throws, do all your coverage responsibilities, and list goes on.

 

If anyone wants to just move guys to any spot on field regardless to how awful their defense is.... maybe just watch the Orioles play defense for a few games & decide if watching that brutal of defense is worth it. There is no hiding a guy at 3rd. 1st base is involved on most plays. I never want to watch Brewers throw random guys out there

[MNBrew]

Clancy's been a ceaseless advocate of the Brewers still using Braun at 3B over the years. While I admire his enthusiasm, I think it's tons more realistic that Braun will retire without having ever played another inning at 3B.

[owbc]

Santana has good plate discipline. Really his outside zone swing & zone swing % is pretty close to that of Yelich & Broxton. All 3 live above 10% Bb% which where you love to have all your hitters. Issue with Santana & Broxton is they simple can’t make contact with the balls in & out of the zone. Yelich hits around 68 % of ball out of zone & over 80% in the zone. Santana & Broxton hit 45% ish of balls out & only 65%ish of balls in zone. Santana will always look at pitches & be able to walk. The real thing is eventually he has to be able to make contact. Otherwise he will always K 30% of the time.

 

I’m a guy who loves guys who loves walk & make contact. Any time you put ball in play you have a chance to get hit, knock run in, or move guys over. Strike outs kill everything. Power is great as long as it doesn’t counter with awful contact%. Gamel doesn’t hurt you there. For career he is at 28% outside zone, 60% zone and only swings at 43% of pitches. he makes contact on 65% of those outside zone pitches & 90% of his zone pitches. He walks 10% & is around 20% exactally where you want a hitter. However Sogard was another high contact guy with similar swing stats. My issue with Gamel as with Sogard is they simply don’t hit ball very hard. He is a 25% hard ball hitter. He’s improved a lot on his soft contact but really he doesn’t drive ball much. That is what will keep him from being more than a 4th OF or anything more than average starter.

 

If you don’t mind Ks, lack of contact, limited versatility & bad defense but prefer the hard contact with power potential at only corner OF. You like Santana. His star is brighter due to power, hard contact, obp, and good overall average

 

If you like obp, limited ks, versatility, good average, more athletic guys who may not drive balls as hard or have much pop.... you like Gamel. To me he is a great fit as 4th OF but not a guy who should be starting 120+ games. He is a lefty bench bat who gives you a solid options with your line up. After watching us kill opportunities in Dodger series over & over by K after K... I like a high contact option.

 

Aoki I think was a pretty good comp for him at the plate

 

This is really excellent info, thanks.

 

I don't know if I trust those defensive WAR stats. Supposedly Broxton was +1.3 bWAR in 2018 and -0.5 bWAR in 2017.

 

How many times did we beat the Cardinals last year because of their atrocious defense? I seem to recall it being a major factor in several close games.

[Baldkin]

 

This is really excellent info, thanks.

 

I don't know if I trust those defensive WAR stats. Supposedly Broxton was +1.3 bWAR in 2018 and -0.5 bWAR in 2017.

 

How many times did we beat the Cardinals last year because of their atrocious defense? I seem to recall it being a major factor in several close games.

 

Defense and.... baserunning. (I just really wanted to post this video again)

 

[AKCheesehead]

Thank you Baldkin. It is the gift that keeps on giving.

[owbc]

Thank you Baldkin. It is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

The slo-mo at 1:20 needs to become a recurring GIF on this forum.

[RobDeer 45]

I like the move. It gives the team more flexibility. I also hope it works out for Santana, and he gets to play every day. Too bad we couldn't trade him last offseason, but I don't think we would have received much more.

[MNBrew]

 

This is really excellent info, thanks.

 

I don't know if I trust those defensive WAR stats. Supposedly Broxton was +1.3 bWAR in 2018 and -0.5 bWAR in 2017.

 

How many times did we beat the Cardinals last year because of their atrocious defense? I seem to recall it being a major factor in several close games.

 

Defense and.... baserunning. (I just really wanted to post this video again)

 

The hallowed Cardinals Way, right?

[stoutdude04]

Santana hit a grand slam in the opening game of the 2019 season. Hope he has a great year. Always liked him and wish it would have worked out for him here.

[Brew crew 92]

Santana hit a grand slam in the opening game of the 2019 season. Hope he has a great year. Always liked him and wish it would have worked out for him here.

 

Yes, just not against us when we play them this year.

[tigerbrew]

This Santana trade was the only trade I didn't like this offseason. I'd keep Santana especially if there will be a DH in the NL.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

This Santana trade was the only trade I didn't like this offseason. I'd keep Santana especially if there will be a DH in the NL.

 

I wish they had been able to get a little more, but hopefully Gamel is useful. You never know if the pitching prospect they got back will pan out, either. Still, it seems like they got more back for Broxton than they did for Santana, which surprised me. The value of power-hitting corner OFers with average to poor defense must be very down right now.

[Ennder]

Santana hit a grand slam in the opening game of the 2019 season. Hope he has a great year. Always liked him and wish it would have worked out for him here.

 

He also made a terrible defensive play that gave someone a hit they didn't deserve. For today that is a win but it points to the reality of the downside of his play. He is a bad base runner and an awful defensive player. This does remind me of the Khris Davis deal, we traded away a guy probably one year too early and didn't get enough back. But it was the right move to trade the player as their non offensive stock is just awful, Khris Davis is a terrible baseball player outside of hitting home runs. Hard to decide how much the power gains value over all the huge negatives from the rest of his game. Davis has been a roughly 2.5 WAR player with the A's, so a bit above average but below all star level and that is with insane power.

[MrTPlush]

The Domingo Santana grade had to happen. Not really any room and he really wasn’t a 4th OFer type. Brewers didn’t have much leverage and probably knew they were going to get the short end of the stock.

 

Scooter Gennett trade was similar. Had a talented player who had an AS level season and like any team went with that player. Said player then regressed, couldn’t really figure it out, and Genmett went to shine elsewhere.

 

Khris Davis was quite similar to Domingo Santana oddly enough. Khris Davis was essentially pushed out for the younger brighter Santana who did well in 2015. They also had to get Braun out of RF where he was an absolute atrocious fielder. They just had too many garbage not versatile OFers to keep them all and split time to see who was good or not (between Davis/Santana). They opted to sell high on Davis knowing if they keep him and Santana outplayed him Davis would have little value coming of a year being a back up or even in AAA (Hey...much like what happened to Santana).

 

When you start fielding a good team and start having multiple guys at one position who are competent you will have things like this happen. If you are finding yourself in these situations and often times taking a deal you probably don’t want to do, good. Means you need to clear space cause your team is that good.

 

I really hope he does well. He is a solid player, we just decided to upgrade at his position pushing him out. He sat at AAA all year and came up in September to help us win a NL Central title we likely don’t get without his efforts in a few key situations.

[stoutdude04]

Santana hit a grand slam in the opening game of the 2019 season. Hope he has a great year. Always liked him and wish it would have worked out for him here.

 

He also made a terrible defensive play that gave someone a hit they didn't deserve. For today that is a win but it points to the reality of the downside of his play. He is a bad base runner and an awful defensive player. This does remind me of the Khris Davis deal, we traded away a guy probably one year too early and didn't get enough back. But it was the right move to trade the player as their non offensive stock is just awful, Khris Davis is a terrible baseball player outside of hitting home runs. Hard to decide how much the power gains value over all the huge negatives from the rest of his game. Davis has been a roughly 2.5 WAR player with the A's, so a bit above average but below all star level and that is with insane power.

 

I agree, I just always liked him and hoped for more. Nothing really lost I'd guess.

[markedman5]

Saw this blurb in The Athletic today discussing defense of various teams

 

Early returns on Domingo Santana are also poor. He’s already cost them nine runs and leads outfielders with 11 Defensive Misplays and Errors. How does a team overcome that kind of defense? Hit 2.5 home runs per game.

[Brew crew 92]

Noah Zavala’s been impressive pitching for carolina:

 

23 ip 20 h 2.35 era 5 bb 25 ks