Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE

[Thurston Fluff]

Am I the only one here who thinks they are targeting Gamel for AAA this season with the idea he can come up for injury needs? We have Broxton to cover center on Cains days off and late inning a defensive replacement. We also have Thames to take over for the days Braun is off with Perez in the wings as well. I just see Gamel as more of a 2020 major league outfielder depth than an opening day major league guy this season.

[Oxy]

Am I the only one here who thinks they are targeting Gamel for AAA this season with the idea he can come up for injury needs? We have Broxton to cover center on Cains days off and late inning a defensive replacement. We also have Thames to take over for the days Braun is off with Perez in the wings as well. I just see Gamel as more of a 2020 major league outfielder depth than an opening day major league guy this season.

 

Everybody who thought this was a "good fit" and thus a good trade thinks that way. So no, you aren't the only one.

[TURBO]

I know Broxton is a plus defender, but he is brought up here often as our 4th outfielder, etc...

 

He is one guy I'd like to see out of here for an offensive upgrade. Would have loved it if it was him instead of Santana getting traded.

 

I may be in the minority with that thought, but I feel like he is a bit over-valued.

[adambr2]

I know Broxton is a plus defender, but he is brought up here often as our 4th outfielder, etc...

 

He is one guy I'd like to see out of here for an offensive upgrade. Would have loved it if it was him instead of Santana getting traded.

 

I may be in the minority with that thought, but I feel like he is a bit over-valued.

 

But if Broxton makes the roster you're not counting on him for offense. You're counting on him to be a late defensive plus replacement, or a pinch runner type. He's not going to get Hernan Perez type ABs.

[TURBO]

I know Broxton is a plus defender, but he is brought up here often as our 4th outfielder, etc...

 

He is one guy I'd like to see out of here for an offensive upgrade. Would have loved it if it was him instead of Santana getting traded.

 

I may be in the minority with that thought, but I feel like he is a bit over-valued.

 

But if Broxton makes the roster you're not counting on him for offense. You're counting on him to be a late defensive plus replacement, or a pinch runner type. He's not going to get Hernan Perez type ABs.

 

I hope you are right... I wouldn't have expected guys like Kratz, Sogard, or Perez to get as many at bats as they got either. If he is actually our 4th outfielder, he'll get at bats, and my guess with my pessimistic attitude, lots of crucial at bats in high leverage situations because it just works out that way when CC makes the substitution.

[sveumrules]

317 players have batted at least 700 times over the last three years.

 

Keon's K% of 36.6 is 316th in the sample.

 

His defense is great, but neither Cain nor Yelich are coming out in late game situations.

 

A 4th OF who can make contact as a pinch hitter & spell Braun occasionally (both in the starting lineup & late game D if needed) seems like a better fit to me.

 

In the Offseason Plan thread I said I didn't think any of Domingo, Keon, Thames, Davies or Anderson would be moved due to lack of demand & was promptly proven wrong. Lotsa winter left yet.

[3and2Fastball]

Pure guesswork but I suspect they plan on playing Braun in only 100-110 games this year. He's always been injury prone and as he ages they will need to monitor his playing time to keep him as close to 100% as possible.

 

Braun had a .859 OPS vs LHP last year, .745 vs RHP. No doubt that Stearns & Co have vastly more expansive data that shows that Braun should sit more vs RHP. I don't think Gamel is being brought in to be AAAA depth, he is being brought in to start in about 50% of the games or so...again Gamel hit .283 with a .369 OBP vs RHP last season. Braun hit .258 with a .302 OBP vs RHP last year

[coolhandluke121]

Clearly coolhandluke hates Braun and that's fine but at least don't lie about nonsense in the process of hating him. Calling his arm are liability is comical especially given it's clearly better than Cain/Yelich. He still rates as above average defensively in LF (DRS) too so because Yelich is capable of playing all 3 spots and is definitely better than Braun in RF it obviously makes sense for Yelich to go to RF as it makes the entire *OF unit better* thus making the *team* better. He's far from a liability anywhere and it's pathetic this conversation still has to occur.

 

 

Clearly I was referring to Yelich's arm in RF, not Braun's arm. They'd be better off with Yelich in LF and a true RF or just a masher whose defense can be hidden by Cain/Broxton. Besides, it just proves my point that you choose to focus on nit-picking that, which is by far the least important aspect of the argument, and not address all the other myriad issues.

 

News flash, almost all corner outfielders can put up some decent offensive numbers. Guys like Santana, Choi, Thames, and Khris Davis - all guys who have taken a backseat to Braun in one way or another when it comes to building the roster - have all been cheaper, younger, and approximately as productive over recent seasons.

 

Who knows, maybe cutting Aguilar in ST in hopes of Braun being the RHB 1B would have finally made it clear to Braun apologists what the issue is, but luckily that didn't happen. You're right about one thing though - it is beyond pathetic that this conversation still has to occur.

[Oxy]

Pure guesswork but I suspect they plan on playing Braun in only 100-110 games this year. He's always been injury prone and as he ages they will need to monitor his playing time to keep him as close to 100% as possible.

 

Braun had a .859 OPS vs LHP last year, .745 vs RHP. No doubt that Stearns & Co have vastly more expansive data that shows that Braun should sit more vs RHP. I don't think Gamel is being brought in to be AAAA depth, he is being brought in to start in about 50% of the games or so...again Gamel hit

.283 with a .369 OBP vs RHP last season

 

If everybody is healthy to start out the year, I think he'll be in AAA. The odds of everybody being healthy to start the year aren't super high.

 

Also, this is assuming Thames is still around. If he gets moved, Gamel will make the roster--unless another LH bat is picked up along the way.

[3and2Fastball]

Pure guesswork but I suspect they plan on playing Braun in only 100-110 games this year. He's always been injury prone and as he ages they will need to monitor his playing time to keep him as close to 100% as possible.

 

Braun had a .859 OPS vs LHP last year, .745 vs RHP. No doubt that Stearns & Co have vastly more expansive data that shows that Braun should sit more vs RHP. I don't think Gamel is being brought in to be AAAA depth, he is being brought in to start in about 50% of the games or so...again Gamel hit

.283 with a .369 OBP vs RHP last season

 

If everybody is healthy to start out the year, I think he'll be in AAA. The odds of everybody being healthy to start the year aren't super high.

 

Also, this is assuming Thames is still around. If he gets moved, Gamel will make the roster--unless another LH bat is picked up along the way.

 

Thames hit .223 with a .313 OBP vs RHP last year with a lot of strikeouts, and defense & baserunning that are significantly worse than Gamel's. He'll also be 32 years old in 2019. I suppose it is possible that they value Thames more than Gamel as a corner outfielder because of his power, but that would really surprise me.

[jerichoholicninja]

Why haven't we looked at Domingo's 30 he season as the outlier?

 

Ya, I don't get why everyone is assuming that is the real Domingo. He followed up 2017 by posting a sub .700 OPS through 3 months of 2018 and looking absolutely clueless at the plate before getting demoted. I'm sure he's actually better than he was last year but if he's more of the .800ish OPS guy he was his whole career before 2017 he's not worth all the much with his atrocious defense. Especially now that he's arbitration eligible and will probably get paid based in his HR totals.

 

Frankly, if Stears felt there was any chance the 2017 Domingo was the real Domingo, they'd try to find a way to make it work with all the OF currently on the team. That they tried hard to trade him last offseason and now finally did I think tells you all you need to know about what they think of him.

[RollieTime]

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed Santana’s awkward swing through the zone? He seems to have a very unlevel swing. It’s almost like he starts out swinging down on the ball. And then it levels off in the zone quickly, but then he quickly has an odd upswing while following through. It’s probably fair to say that his swing and miss issues are from his lack of a level swing through the zone. It gives Santana a much smaller window of barreling up the ball compared to a player like Yelich who has a very level swing through the zone. Not only is it harder to barrel a ball up, but it makes it much harder to even hit a baseball. Stearns may have noticed this and figured that 2017 was going to be an outlier season for him.

[Oxy]

Pure guesswork but I suspect they plan on playing Braun in only 100-110 games this year. He's always been injury prone and as he ages they will need to monitor his playing time to keep him as close to 100% as possible.

 

Braun had a .859 OPS vs LHP last year, .745 vs RHP. No doubt that Stearns & Co have vastly more expansive data that shows that Braun should sit more vs RHP. I don't think Gamel is being brought in to be AAAA depth, he is being brought in to start in about 50% of the games or so...again Gamel hit

.283 with a .369 OBP vs RHP last season

 

If everybody is healthy to start out the year, I think he'll be in AAA. The odds of everybody being healthy to start the year aren't super high.

 

Also, this is assuming Thames is still around. If he gets moved, Gamel will make the roster--unless another LH bat is picked up along the way.

 

Thames hit .223 with a .313 OBP vs RHP last year with a lot of strikeouts, and defense & baserunning that are significantly worse than Gamel's. He'll also be 32 years old in 2019. I suppose it is possible that they value Thames more than Gamel as a corner outfielder because of his power, but that would really surprise me.

 

If everybody is still healthy come mid-May or so and Thames is scuffling, I could see them cutting Thames and bringing up Gamel. They've got 6 or 7 million reasons to give Thames a chance though (even if that reasoning is flawed).

[Thurston Fluff]

Pure guesswork but I suspect they plan on playing Braun in only 100-110 games this year. He's always been injury prone and as he ages they will need to monitor his playing time to keep him as close to 100% as possible.

 

Braun had a .859 OPS vs LHP last year, .745 vs RHP. No doubt that Stearns & Co have vastly more expansive data that shows that Braun should sit more vs RHP. I don't think Gamel is being brought in to be AAAA depth, he is being brought in to start in about 50% of the games or so...again Gamel hit .283 with a .369 OBP vs RHP last season. Braun hit .258 with a .302 OBP vs RHP last year

 

I don't think sending Gamel in AAA and come up if needed is the same thing as saying he is AAAA depth. I think the reasoning behind bringing him in and sending him to AAA is to have that extra year on the back end if possible and have better than AAAA coverage now.

[wntrtxn21]

the Dodger deal for Braun was never going to go through. The Brewers claimed Puig when the Dodgers put him on waivers. The Dodgers then started the trade talk saying the Brewers would have to take McCarthy's salary along with Puig. The Brewers wanted more because McCarthy had become basically a high priced long man in the pen. So the Dodgers initially offered two low minor lg prospects plus Puig and McCarthy, and then balked almost immediately after and the deal fell apart. The Brewers were willing, but the Dodgers were not.

[Ennder]

Braun has been an above average player over the past 3 years when healthy so I don't really get the complaints about him. He has not been a problem at all for this team. I just wish he could stay healthy. Santana is a piss poor defensive player who hits from the wrong side of the plate and strikes out too much. He has good qualities as well but he just doesn't fit the current team needs at all. I wish we had gotten more for him but at least what we got fits on the roster in a better way.

[Jenkins5]

Braun is productive when healthy. Statistically he had a ton of “bad luck” this year. Hit ball hard but couldn’t find holes consistently. Healthy or not healthy he plays major role as a leader for this team. He is a Brewer & through & through & even with PED issue still a guy that clubhouse loves, respects, and believe in. People overlook leadership & clubhouse dynamic all time which I strongly disagree with. As a coach, outstanding team guys, leaders, and positive attitude guys are essential. So you take in production on field which is still above average plus what he brings to team & lockerroom.... there is a lot of value for him here imo.

 

As for trading him.... we don’t know exact players or why it fell through but really, Braun is willing to be traded to what? Dodgers....maybe Angels & Giants? Not like it is easy to move him. MLB rules give him most of power now which makes it more complicated

 

As for the actual topic, I like trade. Don’t love it or think it was a steal but solid baseball & roster construction move. Some here love Santana’s value. To me, they couldn’t find deal they liked last year for him.... this is deal they made.... I think that may say something what league values him as compared to fans. Market for high 30% K guys isn’t what it use to be in advanced metric age. Lucky for him he at least walks at a good rate to counter that a bit.

 

Gamel is lefty with option who is solid defender on team that lives saved runs. His bat is solid & wonder if Miller Park will help power. Hits .270, walks at good rate, and doesn’t strike out much. May not be a sexy get but he’s a solid all around player who has value.

 

To me only bad thing is by mid season we will have Zavolas hyped as a top 3 prospect in at least one ballot & will be giving Roegner run for his money as all star of the future

[MNBrew]

Clearly coolhandluke hates Braun and that's fine but at least don't lie about nonsense in the process of hating him. Calling his arm are liability is comical especially given it's clearly better than Cain/Yelich. He still rates as above average defensively in LF (DRS) too so because Yelich is capable of playing all 3 spots and is definitely better than Braun in RF it obviously makes sense for Yelich to go to RF as it makes the entire *OF unit better* thus making the *team* better. He's far from a liability anywhere and it's pathetic this conversation still has to occur.

 

 

Clearly I was referring to Yelich's arm in RF, not Braun's arm. They'd be better off with Yelich in LF and a true RF or just a masher whose defense can be hidden by Cain/Broxton. Besides, it just proves my point that you choose to focus on nit-picking that, which is by far the least important aspect of the argument, and not address all the other myriad issues.

 

News flash, almost all corner outfielders can put up some decent offensive numbers. Guys like Santana, Choi, Thames, and Khris Davis - all guys who have taken a backseat to Braun in one way or another when it comes to building the roster - have all been cheaper, younger, and approximately as productive over recent seasons.

 

Who knows, maybe cutting Aguilar in ST in hopes of Braun being the RHB 1B would have finally made it clear to Braun apologists what the issue is, but luckily that didn't happen. You're right about one thing though - it is beyond pathetic that this conversation still has to occur.

I buy a bit of the discussion on some of the guys you're saying Braun's being on the roster cost chances to, but to put Choi into the discussion significantly discredits your whole POV in my opinion. Choi's a backup 1B at best with 121 MLB games over 3 years and who's been mostly a 25th man on a roster at best, having a hard time staying on the right side of the roster bubble. Braun had a down year last year but much of that was due to just plain bad luck and Braun's 2nd-half OPS puts any "we would've been better off keeping/playing Choi than Braun" notion down the drain.

 

Choi wasn't anything near good in MIL. His bat touched the ball in exactly half his AB's -- 14 K's in 30 AB's w/ 2 walks in addition to his very non-intriguing slash line. Yes, 4 of his 7 hits were for extra bases, but nearly half the time he couldn't even hit the ball. He showed basically nothing to deserve to be kept in the plans when Brad Miller, who had shown more promise, became available. The Brewers' decision making was highly defensible based on Choi's lousy production and Miller's previous MLB track record (Miller's 2016 was not outrageously far off from Schoop's 2017 -- the 50-point BA difference, thus OBP difference, was about the same net difference in OPS).

 

On top of that, Choi is NOT a viable MLB corner OF like you assert he is. 20 of his 21 MLB games appearing in the OF were in 2016. In the past two years, he played the OF in the majors exactly once. I don't have much attachment to Thames but he was a far better OF option than Choi. According to baseball-reference.com, Choi's dWAR last year was negative, and that's with virtually all his PT coming at 1B. . . . Thames, though nothing noteworthy (and not too bad) defensively, is decent enough in the OF to have played over half his 415 career MLB games there -- and neither Thames nor Choi deserves playing time in an MLB OF at the expense of Ryan Braun.

 

Overall it took a half-decent 190 ABs in Tampa this past year and a 1.1 WAR to elevate his career WAR to 0.6 -- only one year in three where he rated as good as a replacement-level player.

[adambr2]

Braun has been a very clearly above average player over the past 3 years when healthy so I don't really get the complaints about him. He has not been a problem at all for this team. I just wish he could stay healthy. Santana is a piss poor defensive player who hits from the wrong side of the plate and strikes out too much. He has good qualities as well but he just doesn't fit the current team needs at all. I wish we had gotten more for him but at least what we got fits on the roster in a better way.

 

Availability is a very important component of value. It doesn't make sense to say a player hasn't been a problem and then in the very next sentence say you wish he could stay healthy.

[brewcrewdue80]

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed Santana’s awkward swing through the zone? He seems to have a very unlevel swing. It’s almost like he starts out swinging down on the ball. And then it levels off in the zone quickly, but then he quickly has an odd upswing while following through. It’s probably fair to say that his swing and miss issues are from his lack of a level swing through the zone. It gives Santana a much smaller window of barreling up the ball compared to a player like Yelich who has a very level swing through the zone. Not only is it harder to barrel a ball up, but it makes it much harder to even hit a baseball. Stearns may have noticed this and figured that 2017 was going to be an outlier season for him.

 

He is what 6'7"? Fairly big vertical strike zone. Maybe that attributes something to it.

[LouisEly]

A big reason for the optimism around Santana was that 2017 was his age 24/25 season, so he was still a couple of years before his physical peak, and he also performed reasonably well the year before in his age 23/24 season. It's not like it was his age 27/28 season. While still high, his K% decreased from 2016 to 2017, his BB% increased, and his ISO increased. He still had some projection left (and still does).

 

(Not to derail this any further, but like MNBrew said not only does Choi not belong in any Braun discussion but Broxton doesn't either. Broxton is a CF and Braun never has been. When it comes to roster construction, those two are mutually exclusive.)

[wntrtxn21]

I don't see Broxton on the roster instead of Gamel. Broxton is a better defender, but the Brewers struggle with offense. Broxton whiffs over 40% of the time the last two years and doesn't get on base. He is a liability with the bat on a team that needs offense. Gamel is particularly good agaist RH pitching with a much higher OBP and a much lower K rate than Broxton. Gamel is also a very capable RF/LF. Yelich is very respectable in CF for Cain and Gamel can play RF well when Yelich goes to CF. I don't think Stearns traded Santana to put Gamel in the minors.

[PeaveyFury]

If Broxton doesn't make the roster, he's gone. If you're saying they're going to trade him prior to the season as well, I'll say there's a chance you're correct. Otherwise, there's no way in my mind Broxton doesn't start the season on the 25 man (unless he's hurt, of course).

[adambr2]

If Broxton doesn't make the roster, he's gone. If you're saying they're going to trade him prior to the season as well, I'll say there's a chance you're correct. Otherwise, there's no way in my mind Broxton doesn't start the season on the 25 man (unless he's hurt, of course).

 

I agree, Broxton is traded or makes the roster. He isn't going to be flat released. He could be someone who is part of an early season trade too if another team has OF injuries.

 

Part of the advantage with Gamel is the option and I'm sure there will be a regular shuffle between Gamel, Spangenberg, Saladino, and Dubon. They have a lot of roster flexibility available on the bench and I'm sure they will take advantage of it.

 

One guy who would be a good shuffle candidate is Thames. He is an interesting case in that he has options but needs to give his consent for us to option him. I wonder if they talked to him before the season if they would tell him they want to keep him here and not trade him but that it would be very beneficial to the team if he would agree to shuffle between MLB and AAA as needed in 2019. I doubt he would be thrilled but maybe he would be on board, he wouldn't lose any money.

[Noche]

I have always liked Gamel. His age 25 season with Seattle has some similar qualities to Charlie Blackmon’s age 25 season. Some similar Minor league performance too though Gamel was not as impressive. Perhaps not huge home run numbers, but Gamel seems a decent bet for a .350 OBP and 40-50 XBH’s with regular playing time. Brewers likely expect him to breakout.